Log for #openttd on 19th December 2015:
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00:08:14  <drac_boy> anyone got some spare cpus? :p heh
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07:59:50  <Alberth> moin
08:03:27  <andythenorth> o/
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08:54:49  <Terkhen> good morning
08:57:17  <andythenorth> hola Terkhen
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09:23:10  <V453000> so I made myself a tasklist for BRIX XD
09:23:17  <V453000> probably wasnt a great idea
09:23:22  <V453000>
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09:39:20  <Alberth> now your followers get up-todate news on your progress :)
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09:44:00  <V453000> yeah but seeing the wall of tasks is a bit intimidating :d
09:45:00  <Alberth> hmm :)
09:45:18  <Alberth> at work I have a list of several hundred things :p
09:45:32  <Alberth> I don't pay much attention to it :p
09:45:47  <V453000> :D
09:49:48  <Alberth> just pick anything on the list, and do it, until you run out of things :)
09:50:07  <V453000> that is what I am doing so far
09:50:39  <Alberth> the list is mostly for keeping related stuff together, and not forgetting things
09:51:31  <Alberth> a bit of dependency ordering can be useful too, but that's about it, imho
09:52:15  <Alberth> the site seems more for discussing and organizing, ie communication between people
09:52:32  <Alberth> which is not very relevant if there is only one person involved :p
09:54:52  <Alberth> at work, I use it as memory. Some issues are years old, but if anyone needs to know about it, I can dig up the ticket, read it, and tell everything I know
09:55:36  <Alberth> these are typicially edge cases that you will only encounter if you construct it.
09:58:13  <V453000> yeah
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10:28:44  <Wolf01> o/
10:33:20  <Alberth> o/
10:34:49  <V453000> \.
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11:13:39  <Wolf01> whoa, that's nice, i've never thought about roundabouts for train junctions
11:15:06  <Wolf01> also i need to redesign all my rails because i'm stupid
11:15:18  <Wolf01> factorio != ottd
11:16:09  <argoneus> good morning train friends
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11:17:27  <argoneus> path signals for factorio when
11:21:20  <V453000> I didnt read it but chain signals solve all your problems :P and roundabouts are super bad
11:21:58  <V453000> afaik chain signals kind of already do work like path signals argoneus
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11:22:23  <Wolf01> every junction is super bad if you have more trains than the safe waiting areas
11:22:23  <argoneus> wut?
11:22:28  <argoneus> aren't they like entry/exit signals?
11:22:31  <argoneus> that's what I thought they were
11:22:48  <V453000> they are but they also do work like path signals
11:22:52  <argoneus> ah yeah
11:22:59  <argoneus> you can use entry/exit signals to get the path signal effect
11:23:03  <argoneus> except having two trains in the same block
11:23:04  <Flygon_> Wolf01: I was half-expecting pictures of rail crossings THROUGh roundabouts
11:23:04  <V453000> no
11:23:05  <argoneus> right
11:23:24  <argoneus> they don't lookahead
11:23:27  <argoneus> but they pick the right routes
11:23:29  <argoneus> shrug
11:23:34  <V453000> it has nothing to do with the "pre-signal" functionality ... they simply care about paths
11:23:44  <Flygon_>,-215.006468&z=19&t=h As depicted
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11:23:47  <argoneus> wait
11:23:49  <argoneus> so it's not "like"
11:23:55  <argoneus> the chain signals already work with paths, not blocks?
11:24:16  <V453000> just try it...
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11:24:37  <argoneus> I don't have a save with trains atm
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11:24:42  <argoneus> but I'll believe you
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11:27:14  <argoneus> also why are people so obsessed with train roundabouts?
11:27:26  <V453000> because they are primitive to build
11:27:28  <argoneus> have you ever seen a train roundabout irl
11:27:38  <argoneus> there's a reason for it, trains aren't cars
11:27:44  <V453000> needs no logic, you just consistently connect things to a loop
11:28:06  <V453000> I cant think of a simpler solution either
11:28:27  <V453000> and with the precedenting example of car roundabout it is clear where are people coming from :)
11:28:30  <argoneus> just ghetto connect it
11:28:41  <Wolf01> on a city near mine they are planning a double roundabout with a railway which passes through one of them, now i understand where they got the idea
11:28:48  <argoneus> idk
11:28:55  <argoneus> not sure if it's just me
11:28:57  <Flygon> argoneus: Train cloverloops don't exist IRL
11:29:01  <Flygon> But we still build them
11:29:03  <argoneus> but roundabouts don't look deadlock-proof
11:29:05  <Flygon> Because they WORK within the games
11:29:28  <V453000> Flygon: yeah they dont
11:29:36  <Flygon> This works :U
11:30:04  <argoneus> it's also huge
11:30:07  <V453000> only lesser knowledge or ignorance can make you say that
11:30:08  <Flygon> True
11:30:21  <Flygon> V453000: My OTTD games run near entirely on ignorance
11:30:56  <V453000> then "it works" has very little value or relevance to "is a good solution"
11:31:13  <Flygon> RoRo fudgery, brought to you by ignorance
11:31:43  <Flygon> The four-to-one merge I never bothered to fix from being a pinch point
11:31:58  <V453000> yes excellent
11:31:59  <V453000> im off
11:32:05  <argoneus> well I mean
11:32:07  <Flygon> See ya
11:32:08  <argoneus> it seems like it works
11:32:22  <argoneus> the clover thing seems functional too
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11:32:25  <argoneus> but it's wayyy too large
11:32:30  <Flygon> Yeah
11:32:40  <Flygon> In a tigther space, I'd be utterly stuffed
11:32:45  <Flygon> And would need to become more creative
11:32:53  <Flygon> But, in most circumstances where space is an issue
11:32:55  <Flygon> Speed ISN'T
11:33:07  <argoneus> all you need to do is connect each input to each output without tangling
11:33:11  <Flygon> So, you can crap out a smaller interchange without as much harm because stuff's going slow anyway
11:33:27  <Flygon> But, I also play with trying to make things pretty, so... keep that in mind
11:34:09  <Wolf01> it's nice that if you search for train junctions on google you'll find almost all ottd results
11:34:10  <Flygon> And some of my lines can be ridiculously stupid
11:35:02  <argoneus> this confuses me
11:35:14  <Flygon> Yeah, see what I mean? I just broke your brain :D
11:35:19  <Flygon> But, it goddamn worked :D
11:35:25  <Flygon> Uhm
11:35:29  <Flygon> Don't ask about the ships
11:35:34  <Flygon> I don't even know why the ships
11:36:10  <Wolf01> but some of our junctions may exists irl:
11:36:23  <Flygon> I do note
11:36:29  <Flygon> I would NEVER build the cloverleaf I showed
11:36:36  <Flygon> If OpenTTD had more flexible tunneling and viaduct tools
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11:36:48  <Flygon> Having Cities Skylines style underground tools in OTTD would be amazing
11:37:22  <Flygon> Then I could have the same end result as my cloverleaf
11:37:27  <Flygon> Without the ridiculous land requirements
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11:40:14  <Flygon> argoneus: One of my more regretted junctions
11:40:29  <Flygon> Even worse, I tore it off an IRL road junction that hit the same issue I did
11:40:30  <Flygon> (Space)
11:40:48  <Flygon>,-215.081902&z=18&t=h This one
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11:43:04  <Wolf01> i really like your track building style
11:43:20  <Flygon> Huh? O_o
11:43:33  <Flygon> I'd post screenshots
11:43:47  <Flygon> But I always felt that my style was too sterile to poston forums
11:44:58  <Flygon> (with the 'regretted' junction, I did try to alleviate it by having the empty coal train floor it as fast as possible downhill to minimize impact)
11:45:21  <argoneus> I can't sight read your designs quickly
11:45:28  <argoneus> I'm like "ok so the trains come here, wait what"
11:45:31  <argoneus> :D
11:45:59  <Flygon> argoneus: It WORKED
11:46:01  <Flygon> Trust me :D
11:50:47  <Flygon> Wolf01: Another screenshot I like
11:51:13  <Flygon> Tho, note one of the Eastern track pairs from Reykjavik is not in commission yet
11:51:16  <Flygon> Hence the lack of signals
11:53:14  <Flygon> I presume argoneus will understand this track system easier :3
11:54:50  <Wolf01> did you manage to make them profitable?
11:55:20  <Flygon> 'course
11:55:27  <Flygon> Can't build this without $$$
11:55:30  <Flygon> And I didn't cheat <_>
11:55:50  <Flygon> Oil and Coal sustained the game very sturdily
11:55:55  <Flygon> Getting Food was a pita
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11:58:47  <Flygon> Another fun one
12:01:38  <Flygon> (yes, that's FIVE Tauros's on the Oil train. I needed something with enough tractive effort to replace the triple headed Big Boys. But nothing existed in the GRF. They didn't accelerate as quickly, but, they eventually got fast enough)
12:03:10  <Flygon> Oh, they were just double headed
12:03:20  <Flygon> Still, it took FIVE of the locos to keep up
12:05:32  <Flygon> I should redo this game so that it's... less bad
12:08:57  <Flygon> Shame I lost most of my old OTTD saves
12:09:02  <Flygon> I assumed they were in the OpenTTD folder
12:09:09  <Flygon> But they were in My Documents
12:09:17  <Flygon> Which I wiped because I reinstalled Windows
12:09:27  <Flygon> I thought they wouldn't be in there because, genuinely
12:09:40  <Flygon> It's the first game I ever had that saved files in My Documents
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12:10:42  <Wolf01> i usually backup the entire user folder because i might need something stored in the .foldername folders used by a lot of softwares
12:10:50  <Wolf01> that's one thing i really hate
12:11:29  <Flygon> x.x
12:11:48  <Flygon> I should play OpenTTD while my graphics tablet is under repair
12:11:52  <Flygon> I have a backlog of work
12:11:57  <Flygon> But my backup tablet is, frankly, too old
12:12:02  <Flygon> It's inverter's practically gone
12:12:08  <Flygon> The backlight tube itself's near dead
12:12:12  <Flygon> It's got capacitor problems
12:12:17  <Flygon> And the touchscreen itself is showing age
12:12:28  <Flygon> So, may's well spend it playing games waiitng
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12:56:27  <Wolf01> V453000, i'm the only one who looks at the blank blueprint and see a WC?
12:58:58  <Flygon> Remember, y'all
12:59:05  <Flygon> If OpenTTD's default townnames sound stupid
12:59:15  <Flygon>,-214.817347&z=15&t=h Remember that Melbourne has a suburb somehow called Research
13:00:52  <Wolf01> that is what happen when you let Aussies give names... Mt. Disappointment anyone?
13:02:40  <Flygon> "The unusual name arose from the gold rush era in Victoria, during the mid 19th century. Research was then known as Swiper's Gully, but gold was found after the area was re-searched. Swiper's Gully then became Research Gully, and finally, late in the 19th century, abbreviated to Research."
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13:14:10  <Alberth> moin
13:14:46  <Wolf01> o7
13:14:49  <Wolf01> o/
13:16:11  <Flygon> Menta
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13:40:34  <Alberth> ha, new attempt
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15:04:42  <drac_boy> hi
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15:06:51  <drac_boy> hows the firs-loving andy now? :p heh
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15:09:25  <drac_boy> :-s
15:25:19  <drac_boy> anyone else up at 10est anyway? :)
15:33:11  <Alberth> probably not
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15:36:04  <drac_boy> and why did you type that otherwise? heh :)
15:36:13  <drac_boy> didn't sleep well so having a lazy day atm tho here
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15:43:58  <Alberth> /me lives at 4cet
15:44:18  <Alberth> or rather 16:45cet
15:45:07  <Alberth> ha, you got up at 5:30 in the morning?
15:46:47  <drac_boy> nope...much earlier than that...and couldn't sleep right away either
15:47:05  <drac_boy> hopefully next night will be normal sleep .. but till then like I was saying going be lazy for today :)
15:47:19  <drac_boy> so, you having something good for supper soon? ;)
15:47:28  <drac_boy> I had some simple apple pancakes for breakfast anyhow
15:47:43  <Alberth> nah, just standard stuff
15:57:58  * drac_boy also hasn't been able to do much grf work in a while either
16:01:26  <Alberth> reduce laziness :)
16:05:44  <drac_boy> anyway going for a bit now, have fun with your basic supper :)
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16:17:19  <andythenorth> how plausible is savegame editing?
16:18:29  <Alberth> editing is not the problem, loading it back in afterwards is the challenge :p
16:19:21  <Alberth> but not very, in general
16:19:37  <andythenorth> I want to play a tropic game, but the map generator is appalling
16:19:37  <Alberth> you may have better luck fixing things in afterload code
16:19:49  <andythenorth> and I can’t find any good heightmaps so far
16:20:20  <andythenorth> wondering about using temperate, then changing climate in the save
16:20:48  <Alberth> generate one in the SE, save it as height map?
16:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think that's a worthwhile approach to the problem
16:24:08  <andythenorth> SE heightmap works :)
16:24:10  * andythenorth learns a thing
16:25:13  <andythenorth> wow, mountains in Tropic :D
16:25:16  <andythenorth> never seen those before
16:25:57  <Alberth> there really are mountains in eg south america :)
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16:30:43  <andythenorth> also Africa
16:30:47  <andythenorth> and other places even :P
16:31:01  <andythenorth> nobody’s going to ‘fix’ the tropic map gen, right?
16:32:14  <sim-al2> I always wonder what the existing tropic climate actually represents, I can't think of many places that transition from hard desert to rainforest that quickly
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16:33:18  <Alberth> it was fixed, but the fixes had some unwanted side effects and were reverted :p
16:34:15  <Alberth> sim-al2: you know OpenTTD is a game rather than earth simulation  program, right?
16:37:59  <Wolf01> andy
16:41:27  <__ln__> i suspect it's not really operating on steam
16:43:30  <Wolf01> i think it's a bit obvious
16:45:15  <andythenorth> ha ha
16:45:21  <andythenorth> maybe I should steampunk my 8x8 truck
16:48:06  <sim-al2> Albeth: Oh defintely, but at least artic and temperate look like real places
16:50:14  <sim-al2> Toyland... yeah I have no words
16:50:52  <andythenorth> some people prefer toyland :)
16:51:34  <sim-al2> Too bad that Toyland to Mars newgrf isn't on Bananas
16:51:56  * andythenorth wonders if GS can check industry availability
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16:58:36  <Alberth> I would expect so
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17:00:30  <Alberth> o/
17:01:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you probably can't know what type of industry it is, and distinguishing cargos is tricky as well
17:02:30  <Alberth>
17:03:17  <andythenorth> I have a FIRS economy where about half the types are missing at map gen
17:03:23  <andythenorth> and the goal is to build them
17:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think that checks whether manual construction is enabled
17:04:33  <Alberth> "If no valid GSCompanyMode active in scope, the script can build as long as the industry type can be built."
17:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence makes no sense
17:05:10  <Alberth> you don't see an industry as a type, but as a thing producing cargoes X and Y
17:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but i presume it doesn't actually test the construction callback of the GRF
17:05:32  <Alberth> you can't do that other than by building
17:05:34  <Eddi|zuHause> as that would imply having a location, etc.
17:05:46  <Alberth> such joy, this newgrf stuff :p
17:06:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't actually use this for "is this missing at map gen?"
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17:07:21  <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to have a function that checks the appearance chance
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17:07:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but that could give misleading results as well
17:08:12  <frosch123> hola hi hoi
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17:08:31  <Alberth> tbh I would expect the above function to do something like that, but I haven't checked the code
17:08:50  <alluke> happy yule
17:09:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't see how the text would suggest that
17:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: what's a "yule" anyway?
17:09:30  <alluke> christmas
17:10:02  <Alberth> it's possible it does something else
17:10:44  <Alberth> but it seems the closest thing inexistence for what andy wants, imho
17:11:18  <andythenorth> it would probably be sufficient to count each type
17:11:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i'm still of the opinion that this does nothing like what andythenorth wants
17:11:38  <andythenorth> and try to build some that are substantially under-represented on the map
17:11:50  <alluke> what christmas grfs there is
17:11:50  <andythenorth> but there’s no point setting goals for types that are unavailable :P
17:12:19  <alluke> other than the tree
17:12:31  <andythenorth> in fact, player building industries is not very interesting
17:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: some grf replaced statues with christmas trees
17:12:47  <alluke> i know that one
17:12:49  <andythenorth> better to let the GS just go on a building spree
17:13:04  <andythenorth> possibly meeting goals xyz triggers more
17:13:06  <Alberth> and of course all the newgrfs you made for the occasion
17:13:10  <andythenorth> it’s similar to a suggestion by frosch123
17:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: well, toyland is mildly christmas related
17:13:45  <alluke> thats too much :P
17:13:58  <alluke> i like to keep it real
17:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so christmas is real?
17:14:31  <alluke> at least it exists in real world
17:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i have not heard of any other christmas-y grfs
17:19:17  <alluke> me either
17:19:34  <andythenorth> christmas GS
17:19:44  <alluke> grove street?
17:19:51  <andythenorth> 1 train, have to deliver presents to every town, once
17:20:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: can't you just limit goals to industries where at least one exists on the map?
17:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and if you want to construct new industries, try all of the "0" category first, and when none succeed, try the other ones?
17:22:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think something like that would work
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17:37:43  <alluke> when will chips get recyclables sprites
17:43:14  <andythenorth> ah, philosophy
17:43:32  <andythenorth> does a tree in a forest etc
17:43:39  <andythenorth> what is the nature of time?
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17:43:55  <andythenorth> I don’t know, tbh
17:43:59  <andythenorth> what would they look like?
17:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> like heybales, just more colorful?
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18:03:10  <alluke> trash bags?
18:03:14  <alluke> recycled paper?
18:08:55  * andythenorth plays Busy Bee
18:21:37  <andythenorth> this British Iron Horse is not very good for Africa :P
18:22:06  <andythenorth> so many Impediments :(
18:29:46  <alluke> like what
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18:34:57  <andythenorth> unfinished trainset
18:35:02  <andythenorth> unfinished ship set
18:35:11  <andythenorth> unfinished RV set
18:35:15  <andythenorth> unfinished industry set
18:35:17  <andythenorth> ...
18:38:16  <frosch123> unfinished station set?
18:40:14  <alluke> ah yeab
18:40:24  <alluke> because africans cant finish it?
18:43:57  * andythenorth tries to finish FIRS 2.0 by April
18:44:30  <frosch123> what does "finish" mean?
18:44:39  <andythenorth> make possible to ship
18:44:44  <frosch123> or do you want to make a 3.0 starting from may?
18:44:55  <andythenorth> assuming raised industry limit in April for stable Openttd
18:45:06  <andythenorth> it was ready to ship, then I started
improving it
18:45:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27473 trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt (2015-12-19 19:45:08 +0100 )
18:45:18  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19  <DorpsGek> welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
18:46:37  <andythenorth> hg is getting unworkable :(
18:47:02  <andythenorth> I upgraded it, and it’s borked
18:53:10  <frosch123> i learned, when evolution fails to start-up (about 80% of times), just leav it running
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18:53:33  <frosch123> it fixed itself eventually with the next cyclic trigger
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19:02:18  * andythenorth quits grumbling and draws a copper refinery
19:02:31  <andythenorth> including new sprites, not just copy-paste from other industries :P
19:03:36  <alluke> i think you should remove clay from paper mill
19:03:40  <alluke> it makes no sense
19:04:07  <alluke> wood and chemicals are fine and realistic
19:05:10  <andythenorth> clay is chemicals I suppose
19:05:14  <andythenorth> also so is wood
19:05:20  <andythenorth> how about just chemicals?
19:05:26  <alluke> just chemicals is good
19:05:51  <alluke> but carrying trainloads of clay to papermill makes no sense
19:06:56  <alluke> its useful only for bricks
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19:41:16  <andythenorth> use a truck
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20:34:03  <__ln__> has anyone else seen the movie yet?
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20:44:45  <alluke> which movie
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20:51:45  <TrueBrain> the movie
20:52:55  <alluke> ive seen many movies
20:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not seen the movie
20:53:19  <TrueBrain> many != the
20:53:26  <TrueBrain> well, the might be included in many
20:53:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not seen many movies either
20:53:51  <alluke> but what is "the" called
20:54:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not seen more movies than i have seen
20:54:20  <TrueBrain> I havent seen less movies than I have seen
20:54:23  <TrueBrain> weird, how that works
20:54:48  <glx> alluke: I guess the one with too much merchandising
20:54:57  <TrueBrain> and too much buzz
20:55:04  <TrueBrain> and too much "I really dont give a crap" level
20:55:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i have been avoiding the buzz... that generally helps with the disappointment levels afterwards
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21:00:32  <alluke> dont know about that
21:00:44  <alluke> the last movie i saw was called "fifty shades of gape"
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21:01:38  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like a movie anyone should watch...
21:02:22  <alluke> very mind-expanding movie
21:02:29  <alluke> i warmly recommed it
21:21:59  * andythenorth is drawing a copper sludge sedimentation tank
21:22:00  <andythenorth>
21:22:18  <andythenorth> should I use normal blue for the water?
21:22:32  <andythenorth> or something darker, but less obviously water?
21:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause> use darker, but sprinkle in some flashing water pixels?
21:28:06  * andythenorth tries it
21:31:23  <andythenorth> the water in those probably rotates
21:31:31  * andythenorth does not fancy animating that :
21:31:32  <andythenorth> :P
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21:47:54  <alluke> what will the copper refinery produce
21:48:31  <andythenorth> copper
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22:16:18  <__ln__> alluke: there is only one the movie atm.
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22:36:41  <mikehg_> Hi - I'm trying to run on a Chromebook, using Crouton / Debian 8. Unfortunately it doesn't have a 'Del' key, so I'm trying to rebind.
22:37:39  <mikehg_> Does anyone know what I should put in hotkeys.cfg? I've tried obvious things like 'delete_windows = SPACE' or '... BACKSPACE' but they just get blanked if I run the game.
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23:13:29  <mikehg_> OK, so I stole 'V' from 'new viewport' and that worked. Still, does seem odd that both 'SPACE' and 'BACKSPACE' don't work. Ho hum, sorry for the noise...
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23:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause> mikehg_: these are the keys that it understands:;a=blob;f=src/hotkeys.cpp;h=84288a0e8148c3c0126142dfa7d3bd41597225fa;hb=HEAD#l36
23:31:00  <Eddi|zuHause> space is sort of hardcoded to "close newspapers"
23:34:51  <mikehg_> Eddi|zuHause: thanks - that's a useful reference. It doesn't really matter, of course, you can get used to anything - I just thought I was probably doing something else wrong when neither worked. Cheers.
23:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> mikehg_: well you're free to open a ticket if you feel like a certain key should be supported
23:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> also, there should probably be a wiki page containing this info...
23:46:34  *** Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
23:51:36  <mikehg_> Eddi|zuHause: are you an admin? Make me an account if you like, I'll turn that into a page. mikehg is fine as a username, it's mike.h.gentry at
23:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not an admin
23:56:24  <Wolf01> 'night
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