Log for #openttd on 21st January 2016:
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09:10:57  <dihedral> greetings
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09:45:11  <Wolf01> o/
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10:50:26  <peter1138> morning
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15:58:18  <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
15:58:21  <V453000> the more
15:58:35  <V453000> "3D" tracks are, the shittier they get in corners
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15:59:00  <tt_johannes> Hello
15:59:40  <tt_johannes> dumb question... is it possible to install and run openttd on Linux in a non root path? e.g. ./configure --prefix=/home/... ?
16:00:00  <Taede> sure
16:00:05  <V453000> just unzip it anywhere you like
16:00:36  <Taede> use make bundle and the bundle directory will contain a working openttd
16:00:59  <Taede> for newgrfs etc it will use ~/.openttd
16:01:08  <tt_johannes> Taede, you mean "make bundle" instead of "make install" ?
16:01:21  <Taede> yup
16:01:34  <Rubidium> and if you're really lazy, just "make run" ;)
16:02:28  <tt_johannes> johannes@quaffpot ~/cprogs/openttd $ ./bundle/openttd -g ~/.openttd/save/Nienfeld73.sav -v null
16:02:31  <tt_johannes> Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt.
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16:02:56  <Rubidium> tt_johannes: a "make install" isn't going to solve that
16:03:50  <tt_johannes> Rubidium: I tried "make + make bundle", which showed this error
16:03:58  <tt_johannes> (like Taede suggested)
16:04:11  <Rubidium> tt_johannes: regardless, "make install" isn't going to solve that error
16:04:18  <tt_johannes> :P
16:04:28  <tt_johannes> ok but make bundle isn't either ?
16:04:29  <Rubidium> because OpenTTD doesn't ship the graphics set
16:05:08  <tt_johannes> Rubidium: ah I get it...
16:05:24  <Rubidium> *if* you have the right dependencies compiled into the executable it will ask you whether it should download it when using a graphical user interface, but if that is not possible... I would suggest reading the mentioned section in the readme
16:06:03  <tt_johannes> Rubidium: I did, but I guess it only asks me if I don't start with -v null :P
16:06:48  <Rubidium> well... you tell it to not use the graphical user interface, so what do you expect?
16:06:49  <tt_johannes> ok now it works, great
16:07:11  <tt_johannes> well thanks for the help
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16:13:44  <planetmaker> tt_johannes, just don't install :)
16:14:03  <planetmaker> ah... I'm late to the party :)
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16:23:13  <Alberth> hi hi
16:26:48  <supermop> V453000: make tracks flat, abuse fences for 3d rails
16:27:26  <Alberth> hmm, junctions?
16:27:42  <supermop> abuse catenary?
16:28:35  <supermop> i was thinking a could years ago about how to make monorail look better at extra zoom, and there is basically no way to do it without the rail having some actual height
16:29:06  <supermop> the only thing on a default rail tile that has any height is the fence
16:29:30  <supermop> but true, then fences are omitted on many locations
16:30:12  <supermop> couple years ago
16:30:39  <Alberth> not sure that makes sens imho, tracks are also not on the ground even if they look that way
16:30:49  <Alberth> everything is just visual illusion
16:30:57  <supermop> yes,
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16:31:44  <supermop> but v's problem i assume is that at the corner, you want to make it look like the rail segment is a few inches tall, sticking up in front of the tile beyond
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16:32:42  <supermop> you can fake it easily if you assume the rail beyond is alway straight, or if the rail it self is a mush of pixels as in 8bpp 1x sprites
16:33:26  <Alberth> hmm, good point, 4x zoom may be different; I never play in that
16:34:09  <supermop> yeah, these are all areas the original artists could cheat in as there was no way to notice the errors easily before
16:34:37  <V453000>
16:34:41  <V453000> cornerz
16:35:01  <supermop> like a monorail rail is a couple feet tall, but you can  fake it with a completely flat line in the original style
16:35:05  <V453000> cheating it with old ttd monorail was easy in pixel art
16:35:08  <V453000> in 3D not so much
16:37:26  <supermop> the only thing  could think of at the time was to not draw the rail, or draw it very simply
16:38:00  <supermop> and then have a fence or catenary sprite that is drawn and positioned as a monorail beam
16:38:41  <supermop> and if someone turns of catenary fo a bit, its not the end of the world that the rail is invisible
16:38:45  <V453000> nah, nothing "truly" helps ... the key is to simply hack it's supports/pillars in a way that makes the corners less apparent
16:38:53  <V453000> and fences do not get build next to every tile
16:38:56  <V453000> only on edges
16:39:12  <V453000> maglev aint got catenary :(
16:39:27  <supermop> but default monorail has no wires so doesnt work in baseset
16:40:33  <supermop> hmm blizzard coming this weekend, i should buy new boots
16:42:30  <Alberth> oh, not the game company :p
16:42:52  <supermop> foot of snow possible,
16:43:03  <supermop> have not had snow yet this year
16:43:09  <V453000> I think the trick in original TTD monorail is that it has the supports of the beam at the edges so nicely, that it does not look wtf in corners
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16:43:21  <Alberth> year is only 21 days old :p
16:43:28  <supermop> past few years in nyc has been nothing but tons of snow - but i got to hide from that in australia!
16:43:51  <V453000>
16:43:52  <supermop> haha, past few winters then , Alberth
16:44:07  <tt_johannes> if you add a new file in the video directory, how do you inform the Makefile of it? I thinks it knows automatically?
16:44:35  <Alberth> there is a "source.list" file listing the files
16:44:49  <supermop> V453000: also the original monorail rails are not much thicker than an original steel rail
16:44:55  <Alberth> and a script to update the build stuff from the source.list
16:45:10  <V453000> supermop: that makes it even harder to get to look nice
16:45:22  <V453000> I am doing maglev in a very monorail-style way
16:45:33  <V453000> I gor rail sorted
16:45:49  <V453000>
16:45:52  <Alberth> tt_johannes: projects/generate  files (one is unix, one is wndows)
16:45:56  <supermop> V453000: why not just a wide uniform slab for maglev?
16:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> if you add a file to source.list, you should also run projects/generate before publishing
16:46:12  <supermop> seems that would be easiest,
16:46:18  <V453000> I don't like it
16:46:23  <V453000> and in junctions it is hard to make it work well
16:46:46  <V453000> one overlays another and junctions become a mess
16:46:46  <supermop> like a transrapid track right on the ground
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16:47:45  <supermop> so are monorail and maglev basically the same graphically in brix?
16:47:59  <V453000> basically it is one rail
16:48:30  <V453000> but the magic of maglev is that the bright blue top is like "electrictiy" ... the black part of the rail is a part of the underlay
16:48:49  <V453000> which means that once you build the junction, you get all connections, and then blue part is overlay to "activate" them
16:49:32  <supermop> sounds fun
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16:51:00  <V453000> it works great in junctions, probably the best it possibly could ... it is the same method I use at PURR
16:51:59  <V453000>
16:53:29  <V453000> which is awesome, but "on the ground'
16:53:57  <V453000> I would like to have track-hugging maglev train graphics  in brix, which is why I am trying to make the track elevated
16:55:34  <tt_johannes> I get many errors compiling a simple cpp file that just includes null_v.h
16:55:58  <tt_johannes> I guess it's missing stdafx.h, but if that's the case, that should be included in the appropriate headers
16:56:19  <Alberth> nope, it's the first include in every cpp files
16:56:26  <Alberth> *file
16:57:54  <tt_johannes> Alberth: why don't you put it into the headers?
16:57:57  <Rubidium> tt_johannes: please come with a patch that does not include stdafx.h unnecessarily, but also doesn't miss it
16:58:21  <tt_johannes> ah, you worry about compile time?
16:58:54  <Rubidium> not necessarily
16:58:57  <Alberth> I have no idea, it was there when I joined the project; I don't even understand why it's called stdafx.h, apparently something window-y
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17:00:16  <Rubidium> <- apparantly MSVC doesn't compile anything coming before #include "stdafx.h"
17:00:37  <tt_johannes> oh ok...
17:00:48  <Alberth> silly windows
17:01:23  <Rubidium> well, I found loads more silly things recently
17:01:31  <Rubidium> amongst others airliners
17:02:01  <Alberth> :)
17:03:15  <Rubidium> airlines A and B fly the same route, airline A offers flights on A and B for EUR 450, airline B offers flights on A and B for EUR 550. Now the awards of Airline B can only be claimed when you book and fly with the same airline
17:03:30  <Rubidium> i.e. booking and flying with A or booking and flying with B
17:04:21  <Alberth> hmm, marketing... :p
17:04:37  <Rubidium> but flying with B (regardless where you booked) doesn't give you frequent flyer stuff...
17:05:19  <Alberth> lol
17:06:40  <Rubidium> since I'm not flying enough business class to rake in lots of points, I won't get and stay in the higher categories where the flyer points are really useful... so I guess I'm going for the cheap option
17:07:28  <Alberth> yeah, no real advantages to fly B  :)
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17:08:24  <Rubidium> oh, I'm going to fly with B, just going to book with A
17:09:27  <tt_johannes> why does the null video driver call UpdateWindows ? Is there some function behind it?
17:09:43  <Rubidium> probably
17:10:25  <tt_johannes> I mean, what are practical use cases for the null driver (besides debugging) ?
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17:11:42  <Rubidium> the AI regression test
17:11:59  <tt_johannes> also, I'm not sure why it can do multiple ticks...
17:12:15  <tt_johannes> what is it doing in all those ticks?
17:12:59  <tt_johannes> is it like you load a game, and then let it run for a few ticks/seconds (just without any video display), and then, e.g. save the resulting game?
17:13:15  <Alberth> I am not sure anyone ever spend a large amount of time on a null driver
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17:14:49  <tt_johannes> I wanted to write an exporter that takes an openttd map and exports a railway net graph... someone suggested to use the null driver
17:15:23  <tt_johannes> should my null driver then just make 0 ticks, then export the graph, and then finish?
17:16:57  <Alberth> 0 ticks or 1 ticks or 5 ticks, it all hardly matters, imho
17:18:18  <Alberth> you probably already thought about it longer than the total time you may waste there :)
17:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- i think this is one of the longest standing misfeatures of the game. if a train is lost, it should not take the SHORTEST path, but the LONGEST.
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17:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the longer the path, the more likely it is to get to a point where it's not lost anymore
17:20:36  <Alberth> so it should circle around indefinitely?
17:20:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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17:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> a moving train blocks less traffic than a stuck train.
17:21:16  <Alberth> no idea how to tell that to the path finder imho
17:23:00  <Alberth> just picking a random direction is probably even better
17:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but actual random.
17:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> not deterministic
17:24:10  <Alberth> indeed
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17:38:40  <tt_johannes> is it a good idea to get the list of all stations of a loaded game via _station_pool from station_base.h ?
17:39:04  <tt_johannes> I thought there was a getstations function or something similar, but I don't find it
17:39:16  <Alberth> no doubt there is a FOR_ALL_STATIONS  like macro somewhere
17:40:17  <Alberth> look how the stations list window accesses the list
17:40:18  <tt_johannes> ah I think it works via BaseStation...
17:40:46  <peter1138> £85579
17:40:56  <Alberth> pricey :)
17:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on whether it's for a car or a yacht :p
17:46:41  <peter1138> it's the amount left on my mortgage
17:51:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that probably takes a while to wear off...
17:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but mortgages should be relatively cheap right now :p
17:55:51  <Alberth> depending on when you asked for it :)
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18:01:09  <peter1138> 2.5% at the moment, so pretty low
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18:17:51  <frosch123> hoi
18:18:12  <Alberth> hola
18:18:46  <frosch123> question of the week: if they really found a new 9th planet, are they going to name it something starting with "P"?
18:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i suggested that as well :p
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19:10:07  <Alberth> o/
19:12:15  <andythenorth> o/
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19:35:15  <peter1138> bah, silly fingers won't reach from E flat to G an octave above :S
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19:39:26  <andythenorth> is cat?
19:40:24  <peter1138> no
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19:49:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm probably lucky that going from E-flat to G doesn't involve a lot of finger movement for me :p
19:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (but octave jumps are probably even more difficult, despite that)
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20:02:35  <tt_johannes> if you pass the savegame with -g, is it loaded before the driver starts, or does the driver have to do it?
20:03:46  <Alberth> I would really hope a video driver doesn't load a game :)
20:04:55  <tt_johannes> ah ok, I just see it, it is being loaded before the driver comes
20:05:11  <tt_johannes> the strange thing is, I have my null driver now, which should print all stations
20:05:23  <tt_johannes> however, if I start it, it prints no stations at all
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20:06:03  <tt_johannes> I started it like this: openttd -g ~/.openttd/save/Nienfeld73.sav -v graph
20:06:50  <tt_johannes> and in the "graph driver", I have code like: FOR_ALL_STATIONS(st) { std::cout << st->name << std::endl; }
20:07:24  <Alberth> st->name is not a char* ?
20:08:06  <tt_johannes> it says it is a char*
20:08:11  <Alberth> "Custom name. "
20:08:22  <Alberth> ie only if you give it a new name
20:08:47  <tt_johannes> oh!
20:08:52  <tt_johannes> you're right...
20:09:08  <tt_johannes> if I do "std::cout << "once" << std::endl;" it does print
20:09:31  <Alberth> you need st->string_id
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20:09:45  <Alberth> but text conversion is another call
20:11:51  <tt_johannes> are the Doxygen output files hosted somewhere? or is there a make command to generate them?
20:11:52  <Alberth> char buffer[DRAW_STRING_BUFFER];   GetString(buffer, st->string_id, lastof(buffer));
20:12:39  <frosch123> better do: SetDParam(0, station_id); GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf));
20:12:49  <frosch123> that will handle all cases
20:12:55  <Alberth> just type     doxygen Doxyfile
20:13:00  <Alberth> good point frosch123
20:13:14  <frosch123> or something
20:13:30  <tt_johannes> thanks 2x ;)
20:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: maybe you should check out the station list window?
20:14:53  <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: do you know the exact class name?
20:22:10  <Alberth> station*gui.cpp  file
20:22:58  <Alberth> would be my guess, something with station, and *_gui.cpp are the windows files
20:23:11  <tt_johannes> what is the sense behind "SetDParam(0, station_id); GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf))" ?
20:23:36  <tt_johannes> first, you tell a global that you will want to get the string for this specific station id, right?
20:23:43  <tt_johannes> that's what SetDParam does
20:24:03  <Alberth> set first parameter of the string STR_STATION_NAME   to  station_id
20:24:28  <Alberth> then convert STR_STATION_NAME   to text in buffer
20:25:18  <Alberth> STR_STATION_NAME                                                :{STATION}      <-- the string definition
20:25:30  <tt_johannes> oO
20:25:33  <Alberth> in src/lang/english.txt
20:25:49  <tt_johannes> yes, but this is no C code :)
20:26:15  <tt_johannes> STR_STATION_NAME appears in the C code, but where is it defined?
20:26:16  <Rubidium> no, it's C+ code ;)
20:26:30  <Alberth> it's generated
20:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: the string codes are in an autogenerated .h file
20:26:58  <tt_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: which one?
20:27:10  <tt_johannes> ah!
20:27:12  <Alberth> grep for a file ?
20:27:37  <Alberth> but, it's generated, not interesting as long as it works :)
20:27:47  <tt_johannes> ok it's an integer
20:28:02  <Alberth> StringID   :p
20:28:24  <Alberth> some uint16 typedef  iirc
20:28:27  <tt_johannes> "set first parameter of the string STR_STATION_NAME   to  station_id" -> what do you mean? is that what SetDParam(0, station_id); does?
20:28:36  <Alberth> yep
20:28:48  <tt_johannes> but you did not pass STR_STATION_NAME to it
20:28:53  <tt_johannes> so it can not do it?
20:28:54  <Alberth> strings can have parameters
20:29:06  <Alberth> parameters are global
20:29:14  <Alberth> we're talking C+ here :)
20:29:23  <Eddi|zuHause> tt_johannes: no, it just pushes the parameter to the text stack. which string is evaluated is defined later
20:30:31  <Alberth> 1. set parameters  2.print/convert strings  3. do not do something with another string in-between
20:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause> 4. don't ever try to port this to a threaded model :p
20:31:27  <tt_johannes> ok, so SetDParam(0, station_id) says: I'll print out some string later, and the first arg (number 0) of it will be a string corresponding to station_id
20:31:43  <Alberth> yep
20:32:02  <tt_johannes> and then, GetString(buf, STR_STATION_NAME, lastof(buf)) says: look up the station_id now in the string map of STR_STATION_NAME and write it to buf?
20:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, basically.
20:33:11  <Alberth> it means "print the string"  the special code {STATION}  (in text)  means, interpret number as station number, it looks up the station name etc, and copies it to the buffer
20:33:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the "lastof(buf)" is to prevent buffer overflows
20:34:48  <Alberth> since there is no text before or after the special code, you just get the station name, and nothing else
20:35:37  <tt_johannes> ok I start getting it
20:35:45  <tt_johannes> the code now printed all my station names
20:36:09  <tt_johannes> interestingly, many of them are name "... Oil field", I did not recall having many stations named like that :D
20:36:24  <Alberth> oil rigs
20:36:36  <Alberth> which have shared stations
20:37:15  <Alberth> you need a station to load or drop cargo
20:37:29  <Alberth> so oil rig has a built-in station
20:37:37  <tt_johannes> ah yes...
21:05:17  * andythenorth plays openttd
21:05:40  <andythenorth> Alberth: 20 goals is silly :)
21:05:43  <andythenorth> overwhelming even
21:05:58  * andythenorth had to try it though
21:06:18  <Alberth> it does give you wide range of options to pursue :)
21:06:29  <andythenorth> yeah, too many
21:06:34  <Alberth> and nothing bad happens when you fail a few :p
21:06:51  <andythenorth> there is some level though, where it’s just like playing without goals :P
21:07:24  * andythenorth tries a new game with 12
21:07:33  <Alberth> at times I do ignore the goals and just build what I want
21:07:35  <tt_johannes> sorry for asking again... an "Order" (like in the Order class)... I thought it is an ordered list of stations, which some trains use as a timetable ?
21:07:49  <tt_johannes> but how can an Order then have a CargoID?
21:08:02  <Alberth> I think it's just one line in the order list
21:08:09  <Alberth> not sure though
21:08:36  <andythenorth> I find that the goals prompt me to deliver the other needed cargos to secondary industries
21:08:38  <andythenorth> and the output
21:08:43  <andythenorth> quite a nice side effect
21:08:44  <tt_johannes> Alberth: from reading about OrderList, that makes sense...
21:09:12  <Alberth> andythenorth: yeah, you do things you'd normally just skip :)
21:09:52  <tt_johannes> Alberth: so in openttd you can tell a train to only unload passengers at a specific station? is that true?
21:10:34  * andythenorth wonders if frosch123 has invented more landscape generation options
21:10:41  <Alberth> what other values does "only" have?
21:11:13  <Alberth> andythenorth: inventing is easy, implementing is more challenging :p
21:11:33  <andythenorth> in newgrf, I find inventing much harder than implementing now :P
21:11:34  <frosch123> tt_johannes: the cargotype is for refitting orders
21:11:36  <Alberth> tt_johannes: ie what does it  not do?
21:12:21  <tt_johannes> refitting orders means: transform a coal waggon into a lumber waggon?
21:12:35  <tt_johannes> frosch123: ^
21:12:48  <frosch123> tt_johannes:
21:14:08  <tt_johannes> ah now I got it!
21:14:31  <tt_johannes> wow I did not know that you can set speed limits...
21:15:17  <frosch123> sometimes you find features by reading the code :)
21:15:24  <frosch123> esp. rare ctrl+click things
21:17:11  <frosch123> for example i never knew how to remove desert in scenario editor, until i looked at the code for how to add it
21:17:55  * andythenorth waits for more goals :)
21:18:36  <Alberth> 12 not enough? :)
21:18:53  <andythenorth> only got 2
21:18:54  <andythenorth> game start
21:18:58  <andythenorth> time lag :)
21:19:21  <Alberth> BB should be smarter in detecting you have no stations nearby
21:20:16  <Alberth> hmm, might fail with oil rigs :p
21:20:25  <andythenorth> I need to stop quitting my games, and see how it plays out over 30-50 years
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21:21:00  <Alberth> oh, you don't save, and then continue the next time?
21:21:31  <Alberth> you can just build some stuff without goal at first
21:21:48  <Alberth> iirc I made some oil connection at first
21:23:23  <andythenorth> I either get bored of my game
21:23:29  <andythenorth> or change FIRS in some way that breaks it
21:23:34  <andythenorth> or add 20 goals :P
21:30:08  <Alberth> not good in ignoring goals eh?  :)
21:31:23  <Alberth> gn
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21:39:52  * andythenorth must to bed
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21:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> mustard bed? must be some weird british thing...
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23:47:58  <argoneus> imagine if pokemon were real
23:59:28  <Wolf01> I would like to have an Absol

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