Log for #openttd on 22nd January 2016:
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00:01:05  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:01:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen that video.
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09:05:55  <Wolf01> o/
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11:17:37  <argoneus> good morning train friends
11:21:44  <Wolf01> o/
11:26:45  <argoneus> \o
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15:03:35  <Mazur> *phew*
15:03:58  * Mazur wipes the perspiration off his brow.
15:04:07  <Mazur> had a bit of a scare, there.
15:05:08  <Mazur> Upgraded BIOS, had not made preparations for should it go wrong, as I did not see how it could go wrong, then laptop stayed blank for half a minute on first boot into new BIOS.
15:06:49  <Mazur> When it finally booted, X login never appeared.  That, however, upon second reading, was a disk shutdown error, boot sequence was asking for confirmation to FSCK.
15:07:03  <Mazur> And now:
15:07:11  <Mazur> It  is    alive...
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15:28:45  <Wolf01> Mazur, you are lucky, my main bios has suicide intentions, it killed 2 ram banks and tried to kill the new ones, so I had to switch to the secondary one, and I updated it too just to be sure it understand what could happen if tries to do bad actions
15:29:29  <Wolf01> too bad I can't flash the main one from here, and it doesn't like to boot
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15:38:12  <Alberth> moin
15:45:53  <Flygon_> Oh jesus
15:45:55  <Flygon_> I'm tired af
15:46:05  <Flygon_> I was worried Wolf01 was trying to prevent a human suicide for a sec
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15:46:19  <Flygon> I've gone through way too much of this
15:46:21  <Flygon> Night, y'all!
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18:03:34  <Terkhen> Hello
18:04:51  <Alberth> hello
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18:27:38  <argoneus> hello
18:31:49  <Wolf01> nice... anyone for a new feature and related grf?
18:32:55  <V453000> train on 2 tracks? why
18:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf is that even supposed to be?
18:33:17  <V453000> heh you could make train track sprites look like 2 tracks, but good luck making it look nice
18:34:05  <Eddi|zuHause> well, somebody wanted to make a "Breitspurbahn" GRF, but i don't know if that ever went anywhere
18:35:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the only "train" i know that ever relied on double track rails was the DORA cannon in the siege of sewastopol
18:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also the ultra wide track in baikonur
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18:45:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27501 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2016-01-22 19:45:38 +0100 )
18:45:49  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:50  <DorpsGek> greek: 4 changes by Ferrum
18:50:23  <zokier> I get this weird desktop background corruption after exiting openttd
18:51:15  <Wolf01> oh modern art, cool
18:51:40  <Eddi|zuHause> zokier: try without fullscreen mode
18:52:55  <zokier> Eddi|zuHause: ok, it doesn't happen in windowed mode
18:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> zokier: anyway, that is almost certainly the fault of your graphics driver. all openttd could possibly do is provide workarounds
18:53:51  <zokier> thats kinda what i was afraid of
18:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> zokier: try starting openttd with "-b 32bpp-optimized" or "-b 32bpp-anim"
18:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> ("optimized" will disable palette animation, like water flowing or fire burning)
18:54:48  <zokier> same thing happens with 32bpp blitter
18:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause> then i'm out of ideas
18:57:22  <zokier> ok, thanks for the suggestions anyway
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19:23:41  <SpComb>
19:25:28  <andythenorth> what larks
19:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause> a lark, supposedly
19:26:20  <andythenorth> it does
19:26:31  <andythenorth> by definition I suppose
19:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> unless it's a nightingale
19:29:44  <andythenorth> definitions are hard
19:44:17  <frosch123> oh my, i found it kind of annoying that belts feed into the exit of underground belts also sideways
19:44:35  <frosch123> but today's fff shows that you can actually use that weirdness for something unique
19:44:37  <Wolf01> what, TT low strategy and low excitement? Did they even play it?
19:45:35  <V453000> :)
19:46:27  <frosch123> i also noticed the weirdness of splitters not splitting symmetrically
19:46:30  <V453000> I was seriously WTF IS THIS SHIT when I saw it the first time
19:46:36  <frosch123> but did not found such tricks to actually use it for something :p
19:47:13  <frosch123> i remember requiring a belt line switcher before
19:47:21  <frosch123> now i learned how it can actually be done :p
19:47:35  <V453000> well belt switcher is easy to do
19:47:38  <V453000> this shit is just pure magic
19:47:51  <V453000> smart, but still magic :D
19:47:58  <frosch123> you need the trick with the underground belt
19:48:02  <frosch123> or is there anothjer one?
19:48:24  <V453000> I guess you need the underground belt
19:48:30  <V453000> which admittedly is not very intuitive either XD
19:49:10  <frosch123> yeah, it annoyed me several times, that stuff feeds into underground belts that way, but i did not notice that only one lane actually feeds
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19:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause>  <Wolf01> what, TT low strategy and low excitement? Did they even play it? <-- i think by "excitement" they mean "adrenaline-inducing action"
19:50:42  <Wolf01> like when you removed a signal and suddenly remembered there is another train there and no more signals?
19:50:49  <V453000> yeah ... I didn't notice it until I saw it on some post which explained tricks with belts
19:51:04  <andythenorth> TT has very low strategy
19:51:07  <andythenorth> almost none
19:51:51  <andythenorth> there is a basic low-level background strategy
19:51:54  <V453000> BE OR NOT TO BE
19:52:02  <V453000> hi andythenorth
19:52:05  <andythenorth> “build routes that are profitable"
19:52:24  <Wolf01> if you want to play it the base way, you can do motherboard-bus-style-track between 2 stations and flat map
19:52:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Europa Universalis is definitely on the "hard" side of strategy
19:52:48  <Wolf01> if you want to cram more train that tiles into a zone, you need a bit of strategy
19:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it took me months to get to know even the basic game rules
19:53:05  <andythenorth> nah, that’s mostly tactics :)
19:53:31  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you are mixing "hard" and "complex"
19:53:58  <frosch123> something that has so complex rules that it takes ages to learn it, is not necessarily hard
19:54:04  <frosch123> same vice versa
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19:54:29  * andythenorth tries to figure out if there is any other strategy in TTD
19:54:35  <andythenorth> probably not tbh
19:54:41  <andythenorth> there is strategy when a GS is used
19:54:42  <frosch123> the best games are those, which are hard, but still have simple rules
19:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, europa universalis has "simple" rules. you declare war, you go into battle, and you get a result...
19:55:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that result is probably not good, if you have no deeper understanding of things
19:55:33  <frosch123> no, it has a plethora of ideas and building to pick from
19:55:38  <Wolf01> I don't have a clear definition of tactic vs strategy, but as far as I remember, most RTS games should instead be tactic games
19:55:47  <frosch123> trade, merchants and other weidos
19:56:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, those are the complex things
19:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can easily play on without knowing those
19:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the tutorial says something like "put one merchant home, the other one(s) at the next downstream node"
19:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably good enough for a while
19:57:36  <Eddi|zuHause> "tactic" is usually whatever comes before the battle, "strategy" is what comes during the battle.
19:58:09  <Wolf01> wiki says the opposite
19:58:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there may be grey areas between them
19:58:22  <V453000> OMG I MANAGED TO INSTALL PIL
19:58:25  <V453000> everybody praise me
19:58:25  <Wolf01> maybe wikiit is wrong
19:58:27  <V453000> XD
19:58:34  <frosch123> V453000: why would you have to?
19:58:41  <frosch123> what are you doing?
19:58:52  <V453000> python script for creating spritesheets
19:58:58  <V453000> we do that in factorio
19:58:59  <Wolf01> no, also wikien says that: Strategy is undertaken before the battle. Tactics are implemented during battle.
19:59:00  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: use pillow?
19:59:16  <V453000> Eddi, console told me missing PIL, so I obeyed :P and it works
19:59:29  <andythenorth> never ever try to install PIL
19:59:31  <andythenorth> ever
20:00:00  <frosch123> oh my... once there was a train weirdo who built stuff on #coop... then he decided to go into pixel drawing, transitioned to 3d modelling,... and now he start programming :)
20:00:26  <andythenorth> I went the exact opposite
20:00:35  <V453000> it's fine frosch123 , the shithead just managed to install the tool and use a script with fairly idiot-proof parameters :P
20:00:57  <V453000> not dangerous yet
20:01:13  <andythenorth> i was coding games, then I started doing 3D CGI, then drawing, now I’m on eBay buying model trains
20:01:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: tactics / strategy /s above
20:01:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you think V will continue with lego?
20:01:45  <andythenorth> although it’s a grey area
20:01:52  <andythenorth> frosch123: dunno :)
20:01:57  <V453000> XD
20:01:59  <Wolf01> example, take starcraft: the only strategy I see there is "oh, I'm $race and I spawned here, so I should do this and that" during battle you use a lot of different tactics and end up doing anything about the strategy you thought about
20:02:06  <andythenorth> a battle is tactics in a campaign
20:02:27  <andythenorth> an engagement is tactics in a battle
20:02:38  <andythenorth> a melee is tactics in an engagement
20:02:46  <andythenorth> and it’s all turtles from there
20:03:03  <andythenorth> frosch123: got any landscape gen ideas?
20:03:17  <andythenorth> and can we bin the crappy tropic settings for TGP?
20:03:21  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, then, apparently "strategy" is long-term planning, while "tactics" is short-term
20:03:21  <andythenorth> because they’re dumb
20:03:57  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1, and strategy <-> tactics depending on time horizon
20:04:09  <Wolf01> instead TT is strategy, because you need to think about a profitable route to extend for the next 100 years, you aren't there for moving the tracks like a swamp river
20:04:30  <andythenorth> TT is _mostly_ tactics
20:04:54  <andythenorth> but that is debatable forever and a day
20:05:13  <V453000> what about playing TT with a long-term strategy, like using network which is expandable etc.
20:05:15  <V453000> :P
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20:05:16  <Wolf01> but you need a vaste view and prevision for the next years, which is a strategy
20:05:17  <V453000> shots fired
20:05:26  <Wolf01> if you focus on micromanagement is tactics
20:05:32  <andythenorth> I guess there are ‘strategies’ and ‘winning / losing strategies'
20:05:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i think what the table was trying to say is you don't need a lot of planning to get a successful company going in TT
20:05:40  <andythenorth> in TT there is only one winning strategy
20:05:44  <andythenorth> all else is moot
20:05:50  <andythenorth> unless GS
20:05:56  <Eddi|zuHause> you can always use more, but it's not required
20:06:21  <andythenorth> ‘build profitable routes'
20:06:23  <andythenorth> is all
20:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i think they forgot minecraft ;)
20:06:26  <V453000> I understand tactics vs. stragey like: In starcraft, I use strategy X as in going mass marines, and in the battle I use tactics Y like splitting the marines to certain clusters
20:06:42  <andythenorth> V453000: +1
20:06:49  * andythenorth must play OpenTTD
20:06:58  <andythenorth> I am using Busy Bee, so
no strategy at all
20:07:06  <andythenorth> except don’t build stupidly
20:07:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: ideas consist of: 1. rename 'smoothness' to 'scale', 2. add mapgen/heightmap preview, 3. add 8 or more sliders which specify a monotonic height transformation using splines, which transforms heightmaps and mapgen maps, defines sea, plains, snowline and plateous, 4. remove the hardcoded climate-mapgen relations and instead allow saving/loading setting profiles, 5. alow setting sea, desert, rainforest and snow as percentages of
20:07:23  <frosch123> map area, instead of fixed heights
20:07:23  <V453000> to OpenTTD I would translate this similarly, big goal = strategy, implementation / how you lay out tracks / how you solve junctions/stuff = tactics
20:08:11  <andythenorth> what does ‘smoothness’ even do?
20:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: bonus points for disabling the snowline slider if a snowline grf is used
20:08:19  <andythenorth> it just makes coasts ugly or not
20:08:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: it zooms the map
20:08:37  <frosch123> rough means zoomed out: many small hills
20:08:37  <andythenorth> the only valid smoothness value is ‘rough'
20:08:45  <andythenorth> the rest are stupid
20:08:46  <frosch123> smooth means zoomed in: few extended hills
20:09:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i quite like "smooth"
20:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you get nice rolling hills that you can climb with rails
20:09:53  <andythenorth> coasts are ugly though
20:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> instead of thousands of bumps that you need to terraform away, or you can't build anything
20:09:59  <andythenorth> maybe ‘smooth’ is ok
20:10:01  <andythenorth> and ‘rough'
20:10:06  <andythenorth> the extremes are dumb
20:10:28  <frosch123> yep, a range of a setting is okay, if both extremes are dumb :)
20:10:35  <andythenorth> fair
20:10:59  <andythenorth> I like all the ideas :P
20:11:07  <frosch123> can you implement them?
20:11:18  <frosch123> i am rather in the mood to write a new gs :p
20:12:09  <andythenorth> I am busy with a FIRS :P
20:12:19  <andythenorth> but GS is intriguing o_O
20:12:20  <frosch123> fair, that leaves eddi
20:12:39  * andythenorth has to play test new economies, takes time
20:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> sure. if you want a project to never be finished, assign it to me...
20:15:05  <frosch123> what's the difference?
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20:17:32  <andythenorth> I have loads of never finished projects
20:17:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you haven’t finished any fewer projects than me
20:17:47  <andythenorth> in fact
20:17:53  <andythenorth> you have finished more projects than me
20:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> can you list a project i finished?
20:18:30  <andythenorth>
20:18:31  <Alberth> you started playing openttd?
20:18:35  <andythenorth> proof positive ^
20:18:50  <andythenorth> ok, I made the release, but the final useful commits to HEQS are Eddi
20:18:56  <frosch123> haha, true, eddi finished playing ottd :p
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20:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> well, let's say i stopped :p
20:20:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i made a random fix, that's not "a project"
20:20:20  <andythenorth> nah
20:20:24  <andythenorth> you finished more projects than me
20:20:34  <andythenorth> HEQS is the only project of mine that is finished
20:21:03  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ definitely Eddi|zuHause should do it
20:21:09  <andythenorth> he has the best track record of anyone here
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20:22:09  <Eddi|zuHause> let's say i disagree both with your definition of "project" and your definition of "finished"
20:24:16  <andythenorth> you closed the last bug that will be closed :P
20:24:32  <andythenorth> unless a new maintainer emerges
20:31:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: the GS idea? o_O or is secret?
20:31:29  <frosch123> it's still the cargo/area based development thing
20:32:03  <andythenorth> how did it go? Win goals to unlock map areas?
20:32:22  <frosch123> no idea
20:32:58  <andythenorth> deliver something to towns
20:33:02  <andythenorth> get more towns
20:33:08  <andythenorth> get new industry types
20:34:03  <frosch123> it was along the lines of: there is no steel in this area, add goal to produce or deliver steel in area, independent of whether there are currently any industries that would produce/accept
20:34:21  <andythenorth> the thing I like about SV
20:34:23  <andythenorth> it never fails
20:34:37  <andythenorth> NCG is also fun, but can generate unwanted/boring combinations of cargos
20:35:13  <andythenorth> SV has very little dependence on the industry grf
20:35:25  <andythenorth> BB same
20:35:34  <frosch123> yes, you need to make some cargo classification
20:35:39  <frosch123> what is primary, what in secondary
20:35:49  <frosch123> what can be produced now from serviced chains and so
20:36:27  <andythenorth> not sure how to do that reliably
20:36:38  <frosch123> sv does :p
20:37:37  <frosch123> anyway, i mainly want to try to go without goals for specific industries, but rather target areas
20:38:25  <frosch123> there is one area with a big supply of cargo A, there is another area in medium distance that has a big demand of cargo A -> proclaim goal
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20:39:37  <andythenorth> I like that
20:40:03  <andythenorth> I assumed it would be by town, for ease of naming
20:40:08  <andythenorth> but maybe that’s not necessary
20:42:33  <frosch123> no idea how it turns out, maybe it will be towns
20:42:49  <frosch123> but i do not want to pick towns/cargos randomly
20:43:28  <frosch123> the gs shall be the obsessed president of the company, and you are the executive director :p
20:43:38  <andythenorth> needs to be some progression, geographically
20:43:45  <andythenorth> with the right map, coast-to-coast would work
20:43:47  <andythenorth> but eh, maps
20:44:03  <andythenorth> “North of South” is a name I nearly used for a FIRS economy
20:44:17  <andythenorth> (it’s a book)
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20:52:59  <andythenorth> one day
20:53:09  <andythenorth> there will be powered and unpowered roads / tram tracks
20:54:00  <andythenorth> and it’s just a bit on a tile
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20:58:59  <Birko> Hi,i try to make my own AI and I would like to know if it possible to get information about size of builded station via NoAI API
21:00:52  <frosch123> Birko:
21:04:42  <Birko> thanks :)
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21:07:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: 12 goals max for BB? o_O
21:07:27  <andythenorth> seems to work for me
21:07:32  <andythenorth> forum thread had not much comment
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21:13:38  <_dp_> tried bb on btpro, 20 is about minimum imo xD
21:14:28  <Alberth> what is max now?
21:14:40  <Alberth> If you want it higher, go ahead
21:15:21  <andythenorth> 10 currently
21:15:34  <andythenorth> hmm
21:15:37  <andythenorth> 20 is a lot :D
21:15:43  <andythenorth> kind of makes it pointless
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21:15:47  <andythenorth> I guess maybe not in MP
21:16:01  <andythenorth> _dp_ how many players on btpro o_O
21:16:12  <Alberth> it has 20 goals for each company
21:16:19  <frosch123> are the goal shared between companies?
21:16:22  <Alberth> so you have to play coop to need many goals
21:16:28  <_dp_> though what goals are you talking about? how many to show at same time?
21:16:39  <andythenorth> how many available at one time
21:16:46  <Alberth> frosch123: nope
21:16:51  <_dp_> ah, that was 10 and I think it's fine
21:16:58  <_dp_> 20 was game goal
21:18:46  * andythenorth won’t change it right now
21:18:55  <andythenorth> it’s trivial to patch locally, when I remember :P
21:19:02  <_dp_> btw, does bb still give same secondary ind for different companies?)
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21:20:40  <_dp_> that was quite drawback...
21:20:41  <Alberth> definitely possible that it happens, it only checks for duplicate goals between companies iirc
21:22:16  <Alberth> there is currently no such thing as "this industry output is for company X"
21:22:24  <_dp_> should check for that too imo, sharing production of secondaries is not a strong side of openttd xD
21:23:43  <frosch123> somehow that raises the idea to write gs that enforces the reverse
21:24:07  <frosch123> you are not allowed to take cargo from industries to which you deliver
21:24:12  <andythenorth> ha
21:24:16  <andythenorth> that sounds evil
21:24:26  <andythenorth> especially in single player :P
21:24:34  <frosch123> yep :p
21:25:05  <_dp_> hm, it actually may have its uses)
21:25:16  <frosch123> it could be a competition
21:25:18  <_dp_> but I bet it's not possible with gs atm :p
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21:25:37  <frosch123> you win if you deliver more than the other guy can transport ways
21:25:39  <frosch123> *away
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21:28:28  <frosch123> you can either attack one player by delivering lots of cargo to one industry
21:28:39  <frosch123> or by scattering it to other ones
21:28:57  <frosch123> or by makind evil orders that shift the delivery in random patterns :p
21:29:17  <frosch123> but the other guy can counter attack the same way
21:29:51  <andythenorth> strategy?
21:29:54  <andythenorth> or tactics? :P
21:29:54  <frosch123> but i guess it has troubles with blocking industry access
21:30:20  <frosch123> you would have to split the area around the industry 50/50
21:30:55  <frosch123> hmm, unless you divide the delivery ammount by the number of company owned tiles in vicinity
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21:31:01  <frosch123> yeah, that may work
21:31:11  <frosch123> both players would try to build at the catchment area border
21:33:40  <_dp_> tug of war in openntd)
21:35:12  <_dp_> unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any way of controlling cargo delivery between stations and industries :(
21:35:14  * andythenorth wonders about Directed Bee
21:35:28  <_dp_> not even with newgrfs
21:35:43  <andythenorth> prefers goals at one side of the map, every year it moves a little further across
21:35:46  <andythenorth> probably boring :P
21:36:32  <Alberth> we should put cargo payment under GS control :p
21:38:19  <_dp_> yeah, but how? gs doesn't even have a proper callbacks afaik
21:38:59  <Alberth> callbacks won't work, too time critical
21:39:36  <_dp_> and server-side only
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21:41:19  <andythenorth> local payments per town
21:41:24  <andythenorth> via newgrf cbs
21:41:36  <andythenorth> but GS sets modifiers per town monthly
21:42:24  <frosch123> start small: gs can detect delivery, so you can give bonus and penalties
21:42:37  <frosch123> but didn't we already conclude that money is meh?
21:42:52  <Alberth> lack of money isn't :p
21:42:53  <andythenorth> money is meh
21:43:01  <Alberth> or even a negative payment :p
21:43:10  <andythenorth> some reason to deliver to x not y is not meh
21:43:16  <andythenorth> money might cause that
21:43:19  <andythenorth> or other things
21:44:43  <Alberth> frosch123: you don't know where stuff came from, which makes it difficult for controlling what a user should do
21:45:55  <frosch123> you can abuse cdist for that, if you want to know the exact routes
21:46:41  <frosch123> but why does the exact route matter? unless you want to subsidise transfers, which i would appreciate :)
21:47:51  * andythenorth enumerates GS things
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21:47:52  <andythenorth> out loud
21:48:04  <andythenorth> SV: intense routing challenge in small space (1 town)
21:48:29  <andythenorth> NCG: ruthless decisions about maximum speed of delivery + fast building speed
21:48:53  <andythenorth> BB: free of strategy, and makes a nice messy map
21:50:47  * andythenorth thinking about other fundamental mechanics
21:51:09  <frosch123> spreading stuff
21:51:14  <frosch123> transfers
21:51:41  <frosch123> delivering lots of cargo using little tracks
21:52:18  <Alberth> cargo / month / track piece :p
21:52:25  <andythenorth> average speeds?
21:52:36  <Alberth> good night
21:52:39  <andythenorth> bye Alberth
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21:52:48  <frosch123> nah, speed is bad
21:53:01  <frosch123> it penalises transfers and certain transport types
21:53:12  <frosch123> and breakdowns
21:53:14  <andythenorth> hmm
21:53:18  <frosch123> and generally junctions
21:53:57  <andythenorth> I had an idea that every town has a goal
21:54:03  <andythenorth> and there are maybe 10 types of goal
21:54:13  <andythenorth> and you just do them all, then go to sleep
21:54:14  <frosch123> generally a gs should go for stuff, which players may be too lazy otherwise
21:54:27  <frosch123> the gs could favour short trains (< 3 tiles)
21:54:30  <frosch123> <=
21:54:50  <frosch123> many short trains are also messy :)
21:54:56  <andythenorth> ha
21:55:02  <andythenorth> favours trains as a transport type :P
21:55:45  <andythenorth> I think I favour GS that say ‘build here’ rather than ‘build like this'
21:55:46  <frosch123> deliver 5000 tons of cement to gain a free canal?
21:56:06  <andythenorth> power grid was an idea I had
21:56:16  <andythenorth> would have used Zuu’s API
21:56:29  <andythenorth> every town has power level
21:56:36  <andythenorth> which modulates industry production in that town
21:57:12  <andythenorth> needs a newgrf thing though, to identify industries that produce power :|
21:58:47  <andythenorth> industries are flagged to produce power, consume it, or neutral
21:58:54  <frosch123> that is just a cheap excuse to not distribute supplies :p
21:59:10  <andythenorth> yup
21:59:18  <andythenorth> same could be done in newgrf, using town control
21:59:25  <andythenorth> that nobody ever uses :P
21:59:40  <frosch123> i don't think big-scale booster cargos work
21:59:56  <frosch123> their applification factor seems too big
22:00:10  <andythenorth> agreed
22:00:16  <andythenorth> tbh, I like simple goals :P
22:00:25  <frosch123> i never liked gung-ho 4x production
22:00:31  <andythenorth> me neither, still don’t
22:00:33  <frosch123> is that still a thing?
22:00:34  <andythenorth> yes
22:00:41  <andythenorth> mostly I added it for NCG and SV
22:00:46  <frosch123> somewhen i connected 4 industries in a circle
22:00:55  <frosch123> primary -> secondary -> tertiary -> supplies
22:01:04  <andythenorth> and in FIRS  2.5 or 3.0 I will provide an option for 1.5x / 2x production, not 4x :P
22:01:05  <frosch123> and that circle amplified itself
22:01:07  <frosch123> game was doen
22:01:21  <andythenorth> 4x messes up nice networks also
22:01:47  <andythenorth> but, simple town goals: ‘deliver x amount (once)’, ‘deliver x amount every month’, ‘fund an industry’, ‘have a rating of n%’
22:01:48  <andythenorth> etc
22:01:55  <andythenorth> one goal for every town on the map
22:02:01  <andythenorth> win them all for a prize
22:02:05  <andythenorth> cuddly toy
22:02:30  <andythenorth> play that on 2048 x 2048 with high towns
22:02:31  <andythenorth> :P
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22:08:19  <_dp_> btw, is there any way to stop industries from drying up and closing in long game?
22:08:47  <frosch123> manual industries :p
22:09:12  <_dp_> what exactly do you mean?
22:09:21  <frosch123> it's a newgrf
22:09:24  <_dp_> even on fundin only they still die
22:09:35  * andythenorth must to bed
22:09:36  <_dp_> damn newgrfs
22:09:36  <andythenorth> bye
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22:09:52  <frosch123>
22:10:01  <frosch123>
22:11:58  <_dp_> yeah, looks like it
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22:13:20  <_dp_> wish it was in game itself
22:16:03  <frosch123> luckily it's a game
22:16:36  <_dp_> aha, and not compatible with other industry sets...
22:17:19  <frosch123> it's a troll newgrf
22:17:51  <frosch123> for all the whiners who do not like randomness, and try to argue about realism
22:20:03  <_dp_> I don't care about realism
22:20:14  <_dp_> want map to be same even if players join late
22:20:23  <_dp_> now it's like dead after 30 years
22:20:54  <Eddi|zuHause> everyone who uses "realism" as argument didn't think long enough about arguments...
22:21:27  *** day [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:21:34  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: does that also hold for counter arguments?
22:21:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean using "realism" as counterargument?
22:22:10  <frosch123> yep
22:22:30  <frosch123> it's realsiic, it must bad; it's bad because it tries to be realistic
22:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i think that applies
22:23:16  <_dp_> why trains require rails? it's too realistic! :p
22:23:35  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: have you tried wetrails? :p
22:24:01  <frosch123> _dp_: see, that's where realsism goes the wrong way
22:24:10  <frosch123> the interesting part are the rails, not the trains
22:24:17  <frosch123> get rid of the trains!
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22:25:14  <frosch123> night kids
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22:31:50  <_dp_> damn, all I want is to do a nogrf fixed-goal server that doesn't suck
22:31:56  <_dp_> goddamn impossible :(
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23:16:21  <Wolf01> 'night
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