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00:14:43 *** day [~day@CPE-60-226-8-38.wrcz1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:22:14 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~farci@i59F6B666.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24:12 *** day_ [~day@CPE-60-226-8-38.wrcz1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:28:42 *** day [~day@CPE-60-226-8-38.wrcz1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:59:40 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:46 *** Winter_Fox [~winterfox@2001:44b8:209:9500:16cc:20ff:fe06:9d21] has joined #openttd 01:17:54 <Winter_Fox> Hi o/ 01:31:58 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:41:40 *** [Franklin] [~me@cpe-71-71-39-6.triad.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 01:45:02 *** __builtin [~me@cpe-71-71-39-6.triad.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:54:12 *** klote [~oftc-webi@5ED33C53.cm-7-4a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 01:54:16 <klote> Hello 01:54:25 <klote> any one here? 01:54:42 <klote> i have a question regarding dedicated server settup 01:54:49 <klote> for openttd 01:55:31 <klote> I got a citybuilder server setup which requiers the client to build a HQ 01:55:49 <klote> they are able to replace the HQ every time 01:55:56 <klote> how do i dissable this? 01:56:06 <klote> i cant find this in the Settings 01:58:49 * Mazur does not know. 02:00:05 <klote> and another question regarding ingamescripts im looking for a Long goal script a simple goal where people need to reach a certain ammount of company value in order to win the game 02:00:58 <klote> If it exists in the list i cant find it or dont know the right name for this script 02:01:08 * Mazur does not know. 02:01:30 <klote> lol k wel u atleast awnsered :P 02:03:44 <Mazur> Unlike the ogthers, I am awake and at my computer. 02:05:55 <klote> they all eu? 02:07:34 <Mazur> Yes, OpenTTD is mostly EU, some Oz, some US. 02:09:54 <klote> whats Oz? 02:12:27 <Mazur> Down under. 03:14:25 *** Clockworker [~Clockwork@177.203.87.166] has joined #openttd 03:16:57 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@177.1.174.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:45:42 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@x5d820714.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 03:52:39 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@x4d02469f.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:56:16 <Supercheese> The land of Slow Internet 03:57:01 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye] 05:27:13 *** day_ [~day@CPE-60-226-8-38.wrcz1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD529C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 05:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD529C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 06:20:26 *** day [~day@CPE-60-226-8-38.wrcz1.cha.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 06:22:14 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@89.136.141.100] has joined #openttd 08:06:14 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 08:13:58 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:31:02 *** klote [~oftc-webi@5ED33C53.cm-7-4a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:45:01 *** orudge [~orudge@000128f1.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:55:39 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@i210033.upc-i.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:10:04 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:12:12 *** rahtgaz [~rahtgaz@00021442.user.oftc.net] has quit [] 09:48:38 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:48:41 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:55:26 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:00:45 *** skybon [~artem@176.77.7.124] has joined #openttd 10:17:08 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@177.203.87.166] has joined #openttd 10:24:57 *** Clockworker [~Clockwork@177.203.87.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:29:20 *** Biolunar_ [Biolunar@x5d820714.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: yo] 10:36:56 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 10:43:49 *** skybon [~artem@176.77.7.124] has quit [Quit: skybon] 11:07:33 *** Hiddenfunstuff [~Geth@y32.ip1.anvianet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:32:52 *** Pikka [~Octomom@106-69-113-24.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:40:32 <debdog> do vehicles perform any actions (loadin/unloading) at stations which were added automagicly to the oders (implicit orders)? 11:40:47 <debdog> or do they just drive through? 11:40:53 <debdog> https://wiki.openttd.org/Automatic_Orders 11:46:23 <peter1138> yes 11:46:51 <debdog> hmm, is there a way to prevent this? 11:47:03 <debdog> wait 11:47:24 <debdog> yes to "pass through" or "yes to "perform action"? 11:47:48 <Pikka> implicit orders aren't real 11:49:14 <debdog> ok, thanksd 11:49:20 <debdog> hehe -d 11:49:31 <debdog> don't need a demon for that (yet) ;) 11:52:03 <peter1138> use "non-stop" orders to stop vehicles from using unscheduled stops 11:52:06 <argoneus> good morning train friends 11:52:10 <Pikka> an implicit order just means that the train stopped at that station last time round, but the station wasn't in its orders. You can avoid their appearance altogether by doing that thing peter said. 11:53:50 <debdog> ok 11:58:20 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.customer.cloud.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:02:33 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.customer.cloud.nl] has joined #openttd 12:10:38 *** Pikka [~Octomom@106-69-113-24.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:12:38 <planetmaker> debdog, the 'implicit orders' tell you what the vehicle actually does, thus where it stops. You can change that by using non-stop goto orders (or not using the non-stop option) 12:12:46 <planetmaker> for the real orders in the list 12:13:29 <planetmaker> thus the purpose of the implicit orders is not so much that they are orders, but rather information for you to tell you what your orders (also) imply additional to what you explicitly ordered the vehicles to do 12:23:13 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host162-238-dynamic.248-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 12:23:50 <Wolf01> o/ 12:27:22 *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@188.35.176.90] has joined #openttd 12:31:08 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:38 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@cpe-76-178-136-186.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 13:06:00 *** roidal [~roland@194-152-171-172.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 13:07:59 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 13:20:41 <debdog> all right, thanks for all the explanations, I think I've got it now! 13:20:58 *** Winter_Fox [~winterfox@2001:44b8:209:9500:16cc:20ff:fe06:9d21] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:25 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 13:56:38 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-98-14-130-227.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 14:06:04 *** tt_johannes [~johannes@port-92-203-183-147.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 14:07:59 *** founder [~founder@182.242.142.104] has joined #openttd 14:08:24 *** founder is now known as openbu 14:09:32 <openbu> I'm studying NML 0.4.4 14:55:48 *** Ether_Man [DJ@84.219.236.109] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:08 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-176.cbu.edu] has joined #openttd 15:02:26 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:31:56 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 15:31:59 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 15:41:52 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 15:57:21 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19495.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 16:21:17 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 16:35:10 *** roidal_ [~roland@62-46-139-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 16:39:10 <Wolf01> This site requires Sun Java 6.0.0.1 (32-bit) or higher. You have Macromedia Java 7.3.8.1Ÿ (48-bit). Click here [link to java.com main page] to download an installer which will run fine but not really change anything. 16:39:11 <Wolf01> lol 16:40:29 <Alberth> MacroMedia Java??? 16:40:59 <Wolf01> and 48-bit 16:41:28 <Wolf01> (it's XKCD) 16:42:05 *** roidal [~roland@194-152-171-172.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:44:09 *** tokai [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 16:44:12 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 16:50:42 *** TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:51:01 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:54:19 *** TheMask96 [martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 16:54:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6B666.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 17:02:02 *** kais58 is now known as kais58|AFK 17:05:08 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-176.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:09:17 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:23:20 *** Wormnest_ [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 17:30:02 *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58 17:30:08 *** Wormnest [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:52:05 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:52:08 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:56:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 17:56:05 <andythenorth> o/ 17:58:36 <andythenorth> someone is wrong on the internet 17:58:48 <Wolf01> nah 17:58:54 <andythenorth> Wolf01: so how much do you think Volvo license adds to price of 42030? :P 17:58:59 <andythenorth> in â¬0.00 ? 17:59:00 <Wolf01> the entire internet is wrong 17:59:43 <Wolf01> like 20⬠18:00:00 <andythenorth> nah 18:00:09 <andythenorth> probably it actually reduces the cost per set 18:00:15 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-176.cbu.edu] has joined #openttd 18:00:35 <andythenorth> Lego will have had extensive access to Volvo equipment and brand assets 18:00:44 <andythenorth> Volvo get publicity they couldnât otherwise buy 18:00:47 <Wolf01> oh, right, Volvo != Disney 18:02:28 <Alberth> nice supply yard, andy, hadn't see that one yet 18:14:25 <Wolf01> http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aGxZ68X_460s.jpg :D 18:16:20 *** Defaultti [defaultti@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Quit: Quitting.] 18:16:51 *** Defaultti [defaultti@lakka.kapsi.fi] has joined #openttd 18:20:57 <andythenorth> is that HEQS? 18:23:54 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@i210033.upc-i.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 18:28:07 <Alberth> :D 18:37:26 <andythenorth> so anyone else got pypy? 18:37:27 <andythenorth> :P 18:37:28 *** gelignite [~gelignite@f049070024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 18:40:49 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x5f7427b7.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 18:40:50 <roidal_> pypy? 18:41:08 <andythenorth> pypy3 to be precise 18:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what for? 18:42:12 <roidal_> that triggered a hilight on my client 18:42:16 <roidal_> pypy is one of my nicks :P 18:42:31 <roidal_> and no, iam using the standard CPython interpreter 18:42:33 <roidal_> :P 18:43:06 <andythenorth> for seeing how nmlc performs with different pythons 18:43:06 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6B666.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:35 <roidal_> nmlc? 18:43:48 <andythenorth> nml compiler 18:44:02 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6B05D.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 18:46:15 <roidal_> A compiler from NML code to NFO and/or GRF files. â GRF is the file-format for TTD content? 18:46:28 <andythenorth> yes 18:46:44 <roidal_> to be honest i never digged into the technical details about it 18:46:53 <roidal_> does it contaim some sort of program-code? 18:47:07 <roidal_> (bytecode?) 18:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause> sort of 18:47:24 <andythenorth> it contains a higher level language, borderline pseudo code 18:47:42 <roidal_> interesting 18:47:49 <andythenorth> I donât know the exact term, itâs somewhere between markup and a language 18:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> GRF is the bytecode, NFO is the assembler code and NML is the high level language 18:48:24 <roidal_> nice 18:48:33 <roidal_> and what exactly is handled by that bytecode? 18:48:55 <roidal_> and does the grf-files contain content (graphics, ...) too? 18:49:13 <andythenorth> yes 18:49:32 <andythenorth> thereâs branching logic, and graphics 18:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> roidal_: the bytecode is a not-turing-complete language that basically can read a variable and then branch off into different cases. this can handle simple things like deciding which graphics to display for a vehicle, or more complex things like storing cargo and producing at different speeds and ratios for industries 18:51:00 <andythenorth> what Eddi|zuHause said 18:51:03 <frosch123> roidal_: grf contain decision trees to pick graphics and properties of stuff depending other stuff 18:53:23 <roidal_> ah 18:53:35 <roidal_> frosch123: and where are this graphics stored? 18:53:50 <roidal_> and the NML-compiler is written in python? 18:53:55 <roidal_> (python 3) 18:54:05 <frosch123> grf is just a single file 18:54:30 <frosch123> it contains everything 18:55:19 <roidal_> ok 18:56:32 <Mazur> Life, the Universe, and Everything. 18:56:41 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:01:30 <Milek7> frosch123: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6416 19:01:34 <Milek7> can you reply to my last comment? 19:03:11 <frosch123> what should i reply? 19:04:13 <frosch123> settings should be consistent and not conflict or contradict each other 19:04:44 <frosch123> i do not know any details about changes to the rating either 19:06:39 <roidal_> hm, was GRF, NFO and NML developed by the openttd team, or undertaken from TTD? 19:06:59 <frosch123> roidal_: i see at least 4 parties involved 19:07:20 <frosch123> which overlap in various parts 19:07:37 <frosch123> ttd has grf version 1, which only has graphics 19:07:43 <Milek7> enabling new option only ignores rating when building 19:07:47 <frosch123> ttdp extended it to contain decision trees 19:08:02 <Milek7> and calculating still works, so this setting not contradict council attitude 19:08:04 <frosch123> ottd extended it to version 2 containing 32bpp graphics and zoom levels 19:08:22 <frosch123> nml was developed independently 19:08:34 <frosch123> today everything that still exists is maintained by ottd devs 19:08:52 <Milek7> but, if it is required i can add new option to council attitude 19:09:00 <Milek7> which completly disables calculation 19:09:38 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19495.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:01 <roidal_> ah, i see 19:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> TTDPatch also invented the NFO language 19:12:07 <roidal_> may i ask if there is some high-dpi mode planed? not only for the menus but for the whole game? 19:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas the NML inventors came from the OpenTTD community 19:12:43 <frosch123> roidal_: isn't 4x zoom quite high-dpi? 19:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> also, NFO and GRF existed before the OpenTTD project was even started 19:13:08 <frosch123> it's too big on a fhd screen, so it should be fine on a qhd one 19:14:06 <roidal_> maybe i should be more specific, i meant graphics with higher resolution (not color but pixels)? 19:14:15 <roidal_> because on 4x zoom its very...you know :D 19:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> 4x zoom is pixels, has nothing to do with colours... 19:14:37 <frosch123> roidal_: either you missed something since 2012, or i do not understand you 19:14:41 <roidal_> Eddi|zuHause: the developement-history seems much more complicated as it looks from the first view 19:15:30 <frosch123> roidal_: https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=189120 <- isn't that quite high dpi? 19:15:41 <frosch123> for the most part of it 19:16:14 <roidal_> frosch123: which graphic-files are used for that? 19:16:32 <frosch123> that is from the unfinished/unreleased brix 19:16:40 <roidal_> ah, nice 19:17:16 <frosch123> there is also zbase (controversial), rawr, and some none-landscape things 19:21:16 <Milek7> frosch123: what do you think about adding setting controlling bribe detect propability? 19:22:24 <frosch123> it sounds like something 1 in 100000 users would care about 19:23:21 <Alberth> nah, much higher, it's a way around the town authorities :p 19:23:57 <Alberth> unless you only want to increase the probability, Milek7 :) 19:23:59 <frosch123> Alberth: smatz had the idea to make the scenario editor work in multiplayer 19:24:02 <frosch123> it would solve many issues 19:24:27 <Alberth> oh? 19:24:42 <Alberth> like what? 19:24:56 <Alberth> or is there a big need for MP scenario editing? 19:24:56 <frosch123> no authority, rivers, town growth 19:25:05 <frosch123> no industry closing 19:25:12 <Alberth> no companies 19:25:24 <Milek7> that would be rather popular feature, as many people hate local authorities ;) 19:25:39 <frosch123> so many cheaters? 19:26:17 <andythenorth> unrestricted sandbox? 19:26:33 <Milek7> currently there are many setting that can be considiered as cheating 19:27:06 <Milek7> and nobody see problem in it 19:27:15 <Alberth> we do 19:27:35 <Alberth> we'd like to remove them, but users think they are required 19:27:48 <Milek7> like disabling breakdowns 19:27:53 <Milek7> and building on pause 19:28:08 <Alberth> disabling breakdown was in the original 19:28:50 <Milek7> original developers were permitted to add cheats to settings, but openttd no? 19:29:33 <roidal_> Alberth: on which settings are you thinking? 19:30:38 <Alberth> none in particular, or rather all 19:30:56 <Alberth> for every setting, there is a group of users that thinks it's essential :) 19:31:27 <frosch123> roidal_: almost every release moves some settings to a more hidden place 19:31:35 <roidal_> no, i mean, which settings you would like to remove? 19:32:22 <roidal_> frosch123: whats the motivation behind that 19:32:39 <frosch123> because noone, who knows what they do, switches them 19:33:04 <frosch123> only clueless people try them, and then complain about some(the intentional) effect caused by it 19:33:28 <frosch123> who would disable freeform edges? 19:33:42 <roidal_> hm 19:33:45 <frosch123> all that the setting causes is people complaining that they cannot set the map borders 19:33:59 <frosch123> who would set max map height to 255? 19:34:04 <Milek7> me :> 19:34:13 <frosch123> the mapgen only generated to a certain size for a certani mapsizte anyway 19:34:25 <frosch123> and setting the max height higher breaks arctic and tropic climate 19:34:31 <frosch123> because snow and climate fail 19:34:40 <Milek7> assuming that user is stupid is bad idea 19:34:43 <roidal_> especially the map height got raised only some time ago? 19:34:51 <Milek7> especially in open source project 19:35:25 <frosch123> why? it is "open source", not "open user" 19:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: the idea is to reduce the amount of support needed, which fills the forums with useless threads and binds community time 19:35:39 <frosch123> Milek7: anyway, good luck running the support hotline 19:36:00 <frosch123> Milek7: in a company you hire a 1st level support 19:36:10 <frosch123> Milek7: in open source the developers jump out of the window 19:36:21 <roidal_> lol 19:36:50 <frosch123> Milek7: if you have noticed, there are constantly news about the "bad attitude"/ranting in open source 19:37:12 <frosch123> Milek7: that's because developers are directly confronted by users, and have no 1st level support protecting them 19:37:58 <roidal_> on the other hand sometimes this produces much better results than with L1 support 19:38:46 <roidal_> many times the give you answeres that you know that the L1 support have no real idea of the technical problem 19:39:15 <frosch123> roidal_: the best thing was when we removed to option to change grfs in game :) it transformed "dozen of bug reports" to "dozen of complains on the forums". which was a huge improvement, since the "community" could answer them :p 19:40:26 <roidal_> i see 19:41:14 <V453000> sdf 19:41:16 <frosch123> [20:38] <roidal_> many times the give you answeres that you know that the L1 support have no real idea of the technical problem <- you get good answers to unique questions. you get rants for common questions :) 19:41:24 <Alberth> hi hi V 19:41:26 <V453000> hi 19:41:41 <Alberth> 10 days away, and the project is dead :p 19:41:52 <V453000> I actually did stop lately 19:41:55 <V453000> but yeah :D 19:42:06 <frosch123> yup, was a great post :) 19:43:00 <argoneus> tbh the map height should be 512 19:43:21 <frosch123> yeah, that would add a completely new interpretation to map rotation 19:43:43 <V453000> I think that as long as we have original acceleration and 2way PBS as defaults, any discussion about settings is pointless 19:44:19 <frosch123> ah, true, i forgot about those 19:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure acceleration was already in my settings review oh so many years ago, and it wasn't accepted for some reason 19:48:50 <andythenorth> ugh 1st level support 19:48:53 <andythenorth> thatâs a horrible idea :) 19:49:01 <andythenorth> developers do support, bugs get fixed 19:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the whole point of 1st level support is to fetch out the cases that are not bugs at all. 19:55:38 <andythenorth> what about the ones where itâs not a bug, but failure demand? 19:56:08 <glx> there are procedures to follow to detect a real problem :) 19:57:05 <andythenorth> failure demand goes away faster if developers see it 19:57:09 <frosch123> Milek7: roidal_: btw. it's not only on open source. the youtuber totalbiscuit quit community interaction this week for like the third time. everytime it's like him almost jumping out of a window 19:57:18 <andythenorth> why spend money on support monkeys who canât actually solve any problems 19:57:26 <andythenorth> just to make the customerâs problem get resolved more slowly 19:57:58 <frosch123> it applies to everything where someone is personally invested, and then gets confronted by a crowd with other opinions 19:58:58 <frosch123> [20:57] <andythenorth> why spend money on support monkeys who canât actually solve any problems <- it's for the cases where the developers cannot solve the problem either 19:59:25 <andythenorth> seems like double handling 19:59:32 <andythenorth> dunno 20:00:30 <andythenorth> one case has a revenue cost paying non-value adding stuff perpetually to not actually solve problems 20:00:51 <andythenorth> the other case accepts a lot of waste for some high-value developers, but pays off problems, reducing the total cost of them over time 20:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there is a reason why "have you tried turning it off and on again?" is a running gag 20:01:54 <andythenorth> dunno 20:02:15 <andythenorth> I donât do the support 20:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, not every injury needs a specialist doctor 20:02:27 <andythenorth> but Iâm not exactly armchair theorising either 20:02:58 <andythenorth> back to pypy3 20:03:07 <glx> and a many customers call the support for something totally unrelated 20:03:13 <andythenorth> FIRS compiles faster, but Iron Horse compiles much slower 20:03:18 <andythenorth> and Road Hog wonât compile at all 20:03:24 <Alberth> :O 20:03:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: try it :) 20:03:44 <roidal_> FIRS, Iron Horse and Road Hog = ? 20:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, like the guy a few days ago here, who asked about a coop server 20:03:49 <andythenorth> python 3.2, 3.4 and 3.5 are all much of a much 20:04:00 <andythenorth> but pypy3 is highly variable compared to 3.x 20:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and it took quite a while to figure out that he's talking about some completely unrelated game 20:04:49 <andythenorth> I think chameleon is substantially slower in pypy3 20:04:50 <Alberth> firs, iron horse, and road hog are regularly discussed here :) 20:05:01 <andythenorth> but nmlc I *think* is much faster, at least for some cases 20:05:16 <andythenorth> hard to profile, a lot goes on in the compile 20:05:24 <Alberth> now the challenge to stay in those cases :p 20:05:43 <andythenorth> with primed cache, FIRS compiles in about 28s with pypy3 20:05:49 <andythenorth> compared to 50s with py3.x 20:06:00 <roidal_> Alberth: now we know that i don't read regularly here :P 20:06:12 <andythenorth> if I change code, the primed cache times stay around 30s 20:06:13 <frosch123> roidal_: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects <- try that "dictionary" 20:06:19 <roidal_> ty 20:06:28 <andythenorth> if I change a png, itâs equivalent to destroying the cache 20:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you haven't got your dependencies right then 20:06:59 <roidal_> andythenorth: the nmlc is written in python3? 20:07:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I donât feed anything to the nmlc cache, itâs automatic 20:07:20 <Alberth> roidal_: well, it was python2, and converted to python3 20:07:38 <roidal_> ah, ty again :D 20:08:16 <roidal_> yes, most python-programms running more than a few seconds should benefit from the jit included in pypy 20:11:39 <roidal_> and 20:11:42 <roidal_> most important 20:11:51 <roidal_> python > perl!!! (flamewar start :D) 20:12:05 <frosch123> not in this channel :p 20:12:10 <frosch123> this is solid python ground 20:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that flamewar is not going to find fruitful ground in here :p 20:12:22 <Alberth> :) 20:12:24 <frosch123> you only have chances for git vs hg 20:12:29 <andythenorth> http://pastebin.com/raw/ZvLhDCEd 20:13:00 <roidal_> frosch123 | this is solid python ground <- like that 20:13:02 <roidal_> :D 20:14:06 <frosch123> ocassionaly you can find a ruby guy 20:14:29 <roidal_> ok, then 20:14:35 <roidal_> to get a success 20:14:38 <roidal_> git > hg 20:14:42 <roidal_> *start to run* 20:14:58 <frosch123> you better do :p 20:15:02 <roidal_> xD 20:15:41 <andythenorth> git won 20:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> git is terrible for people who don't already know git 20:15:41 <Milek7> git! :D 20:15:55 <andythenorth> http://git.openttd.org 20:15:58 <andythenorth> game over 20:16:08 <andythenorth> so how have I broken road hog / nmlc? 20:16:10 <frosch123> http://hg.openttd.org/ 20:16:12 <frosch123> gmae over 20:16:20 <andythenorth> play again? Y | N 20:16:26 <andythenorth> insert more coins 20:16:56 *** Clockworker [~Clockwork@200.102.122.198] has joined #openttd 20:17:21 <andythenorth> this food processor accepts fruit and nuts 20:17:28 <andythenorth> I should add cocoa beans 20:17:32 <andythenorth> and produce chocolate 20:17:38 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 20:17:39 * andythenorth donât even like fruit + nut 20:17:39 <andythenorth> :P 20:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "student food" 20:18:34 <frosch123> roidal_: sed > vim 20:18:58 <Milek7> so no chances for bribe proability option? 20:19:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i watched a contest once: "which is better? vim or emacs?"... and *SPOILER* sed won 20:19:22 <roidal_> frosch123: did you mean emacs > vim? 20:19:54 <roidal_> oh 20:19:57 <roidal_> i got it... 20:19:59 <roidal_> ;) 20:20:42 <roidal_> how was that? 20:20:42 <frosch123> roidal_: emacs and perl are weird. i never meet people who use either of them 20:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: the general consensus is that there are way too many options... 20:20:48 <roidal_> church of emacs 20:20:51 <roidal_> and cult of vi? 20:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the knights who use vi? 20:21:51 <roidal_> Eddi|zuHause: from germany? 20:21:57 <frosch123> roidal_: https://xkcd.com/1306/ <- that's about my only contact with perl 20:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> roidal_: why? 20:22:10 <frosch123> roidal_: eddi is from home 20:22:50 <roidal_> 'zuHause' -> german :> 20:22:58 <roidal_> frosch123: thats nice! :D 20:23:24 *** Clockworker_ [~Clockwork@177.203.87.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:23:52 <Alberth> could start using $ in Java identifiers :p 20:23:53 <Eddi|zuHause> roidal_: if you pick a random person from the nick list, you have about 1/3 chance he's german... 20:24:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe 1/4 20:24:58 <roidal_> the chance on your nick seems to be greater 20:25:24 <roidal_> :P 20:28:55 <roidal_> don't wanted to interupt the tries to start a flamewar ;) 20:30:25 *** orudge [~orudge@owenrudge.net] has joined #openttd 20:31:21 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@89.136.141.100] has quit [] 20:31:36 <Milek7> Eddi|zuHause: many options is good 20:32:05 <Milek7> anyone can set to that setting which he likes 20:32:55 <Wolf01> uhm, V453000, I just found your spring bridge... in an anime 20:35:02 <argoneus> Wolf01 what anime 20:35:19 <Wolf01> owarimonogatari, ep9 20:35:24 <argoneus> ew, gatari 20:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: settings generally divide the population in 3 parts: 1) people who want to enable the setting, 2) people who want to disable the setting, and 3) people who get confused about the overwhelming number of settings they don't understand 20:45:21 <Milek7> bribing detection propability is not any confusing setting 20:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: and as the size of #1/#3 or #2/#3 approaches zero, the setting becomes useless 20:45:54 <Milek7> more confusing is for example acceleration model 20:46:02 <Milek7> and "original" model is complete nonsense 20:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 20:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is not an argument FOR your setting 20:47:43 <Milek7> if you don't want new simple setting, why for example you not remove all settings, because they are only confusing new pepole? 20:49:20 <andythenorth> what new setting is wanted? 20:49:48 <Milek7> bribe detection propability 20:50:33 <andythenorth> just patch it to what you want and recompile 20:50:36 <andythenorth> no setting needed 20:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: because some settings actually do divide the community fairly evenly into #1 and #2 categories 20:51:27 <Milek7> but i want to use it on multiplayer 20:51:42 <Milek7> and desyncing when bribe is detected on client is not good idea :D 20:52:00 <Milek7> it can be only in configuration file 20:52:11 <Milek7> it dosen't must be in gui 20:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: you're still not having a very strong argument, against a development community that gets increasingly conservative 20:53:52 <Milek7> but. it. is. one. small. setting. 20:54:06 <Milek7> there is a much more completly useless settings 20:54:15 <andythenorth> Milek7: you just need someone with commit rights to sponsor it for you :) 20:54:39 <andythenorth> these things never happen by convincing someone who is opposed via argument 20:54:40 <roidal_> maybe offering a donation for that setting? :D 20:54:58 <Milek7> bribe? :> 20:55:12 <andythenorth> roll a dice :P 20:55:15 <roidal_> however you want to call it 20:55:17 <roidal_> :D 20:55:26 <andythenorth> if you get a 6, your setting is allowed 20:56:27 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19495.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 21:00:56 <Rubidium> just put it differently, which constants in OpenTTD's code should not be a setting? 21:02:20 <frosch123> you can increase the chance by lining out a convincing concept, which is not just "this setting disabled something which i don't like, and i don't care what happens with other stuff related to that" 21:03:10 <Milek7> what do you mean by " i don't care what happens with other stuff related to that"? 21:04:43 *** frosch [~frosch@x4d0101b3.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 21:05:21 <Wolf01> V453000, argoneus, found it: https://p.dreamwidth.org/62e73bd840a2/192876-162301/i25.photobucket.com/albums/c65/nokiirat/anime/owari12b.jpg 21:06:06 <Alberth> ha, great find :) 21:07:22 <roidal_> maybe such settings should be changeable via the console? 21:08:05 <roidal_> so there is no visible option for inexperienced players 21:08:43 <roidal_> but its changeable for those who know what they do? 21:09:05 <roidal_> or maybe a hidden menu like the cheats-menu? 21:09:22 <frosch> roidal_: there exists already a cheat which does essentially the same 21:09:29 <frosch> just that cheats are not allowed in mulitplayer 21:09:36 <roidal_> ah 21:09:51 <Milek7> cheat changing bribe detect propability? 21:10:22 *** frosch123 [~frosch@x5f7427b7.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:10:25 *** [Franklin] [~me@cpe-71-71-39-6.triad.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 21:10:40 <Milek7> there is magic bulldozer, but is does many other things than destroying city buildings 21:10:46 <Milek7> and bribing requires cash 21:11:12 <frosch> just plant trees then 21:11:17 <Milek7> and cannot be used to raise rating above excellent 21:11:37 *** __builtin [~me@cpe-71-71-39-6.triad.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 21:12:38 <Milek7> there is sometimes no free space for trees 21:12:49 <frosch> then remove the trees first 21:13:09 <Milek7> .. 21:13:43 <frosch> he, you wanted a cheat :p 21:14:02 <andythenorth> bah 21:14:03 <frosch> ok, it's no cheat, just an exploit 21:14:08 <andythenorth> town wonât let me build my station 21:14:24 <andythenorth> I have annoyed them :( 21:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted that exploit fixed like 10 years ago... 21:14:50 <frosch> andythenorth: show them their mistake, and grow another town 21:15:03 <andythenorth> I am planting trees 21:15:19 <Milek7> but, in another town there is the same thinking local authority ;) 21:15:23 <andythenorth> first time itâs happened in this game 21:15:32 <andythenorth> usually I just have high ratings 21:15:43 <andythenorth> low ratings are mostly only a problem if youâve screwed up 21:20:25 <andythenorth> I guess I screwed up :( 21:20:47 <frosch> fund some trees, until it i s enough to build two drive-through road stops 21:20:51 <frosch> then run a bus service 21:21:02 <frosch> done 21:22:16 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@dns25-176.cbu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:22:32 <andythenorth> silly old andythenorth 21:22:39 <andythenorth> I didnât do that 21:22:46 <andythenorth> instead I bulldozed lots of land around the town 21:22:48 <andythenorth> for routes 21:22:51 <andythenorth> but didnât serve the town 21:22:58 * andythenorth is such a noob 21:25:16 <frosch> oh my, it's even easier than i remembered 21:25:28 <frosch> just build 20 road stops in a row, and send two buses in a circle 21:25:49 <frosch> you should get to outstanding in less than a year 21:26:27 <andythenorth> ha ha 21:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i generally build a bus or tram network in a town before doing anything else 21:27:00 <andythenorth> after a while 21:27:08 <andythenorth> Busy Bee should prospect some industries 21:27:10 <andythenorth> Alberth: ^ 21:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and that's why my suggestion to fix the tree explioit is simply: forbid destroying trees if the rating is <fairly high> 21:27:43 <andythenorth> eh? 21:27:50 <andythenorth> how would I build routes :o 21:27:54 *** liq3 [liq3@CPE-120-148-51-74.gdfw1.lon.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 21:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can still get out of the situation by placing bus stops 21:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> like, find an empty tile or just build on the roads 21:28:33 <andythenorth> canât build train lines? 21:28:40 <andythenorth> Iâd definitely want a setting for that :P 21:29:05 <Alberth> simpler solution would be to reduce impact of adding trees 21:29:08 <frosch> you just need many stations 21:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it would allow for a new balancing pass where the impact of destroying trees could be lowered 21:29:18 <frosch> you can also build 1x1 train stations :p 21:29:23 <frosch> just the roads get into the way 21:29:37 <frosch> so, yeah, drive-through roadstops are definitely a cheat 21:29:45 <frosch> only added to easily increase town rating 21:29:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: would it still be busy bee? 21:29:51 <andythenorth> Alberth: dunno :) 21:29:55 <andythenorth> builder bee 21:30:04 <andythenorth> it wouldnât be very often 21:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i would add a town rating effect to raising/lowering terrain 21:30:30 <andythenorth> Iâm 30 years in, and increasingly the goals are harder to meet 21:30:30 <Alberth> why would it do that? 21:30:52 <andythenorth> Iâve already used a lot of the primaries 21:30:54 <andythenorth> hmm 21:30:59 <andythenorth> I could re-route :) 21:31:05 <andythenorth> that seems weird though 21:31:16 <Alberth> you could build your own new industries :p 21:31:19 <andythenorth> I just did 21:31:25 <andythenorth> âproblemâ solved 21:31:32 <andythenorth> most ideas die young :P 21:32:15 <Alberth> script building industries could be fun, but it needs a bigger twist then, imho 21:32:23 <andythenorth> âinvalidâ is my favourite kind of development 21:32:31 <andythenorth> ânoâ is the best feature :P 21:32:48 <Alberth> tell that to your customers :p 21:35:18 <Alberth> I wonder if you could steer BB more towards a less random map 21:35:48 <Alberth> now it just spreads evenly everywhere 21:36:04 <andythenorth> I think that would be âExpand the Frontier Beeâ or something 21:36:10 <andythenorth> âNorth to South Beeâ 21:36:34 <andythenorth> I am almost entirely only building routes to goals 21:36:35 <Alberth> a bit like your farm clusters, but at a bigger scale 21:36:38 <andythenorth> except for a few supplies 21:36:53 <andythenorth> and eventuallyâŠ.the network starts to look connected 21:36:59 <Alberth> eg coal in the north, steel in the center 21:37:10 <andythenorth> yeah, I would like that as an alternative 21:37:13 <andythenorth> âRegion Bee' 21:37:17 <andythenorth> âScenario Beeâ :P 21:37:31 <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon had seed points in the map 21:37:36 <andythenorth> so it was random, but highly weighted 21:37:51 <andythenorth> could be done in newgrf, but thatâs too prescriptive 21:38:34 <Alberth> maybe get everything routed to one destination :p 21:39:27 <andythenorth> SV 21:39:47 <Alberth> didn't play that for a long time, should try it again 21:41:05 <andythenorth> itâs good 21:41:10 <andythenorth> needs multiple Valleys 21:41:10 <andythenorth> :P 21:43:24 <andythenorth> PIPE: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1163467#p1163467 21:44:43 <andythenorth> SV probably awesome with FIRS Arctic Basic, if the cargo is Vehicle Parts 21:45:00 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic_basic 21:45:27 <frosch> assuming all cargo labels use 4 uppercase letters (plus _), we could add four settings to sv to force a cargo :p 21:45:51 <_dp_> I would definitely disable authority in claimed town in cb 21:45:59 <frosch> but well, may become boring if it is not random 21:46:00 <andythenorth> frosch: that would beâŠnice 21:46:09 <_dp_> because it confuses new players and annoys old ones) 21:46:10 <andythenorth> dunno, I usually start a game knowing what I want 21:46:23 <frosch> _dp_: what's the point? it f'ing easy to increase the rating. you could as well disable money 21:47:08 <_dp_> frosch, many players don't know how to do it, they think they screwed up and leave game 21:47:21 <_dp_> and for pros time is very valuable 21:47:29 <frosch> "pros" 21:47:36 * andythenorth is noob 21:47:37 <_dp_> spending it to fight stupid authority is not fun 21:47:44 <_dp_> money is also 21:47:46 <andythenorth> been playing since 2008, and TTD when a kid 21:47:49 <andythenorth> still noob 21:48:10 <andythenorth> grrr, Squid Ate FISH is bloody awful 21:48:12 <frosch> a "pro" knows the game deals with the rules 21:48:43 <andythenorth> ships need work 21:48:55 * andythenorth thinks 21:49:03 <_dp_> yeah, but that's not fun 21:49:06 <frosch> well, back to 1st level support 21:49:18 <andythenorth> eh 21:49:22 <_dp_> cb has fine mechanics on its own and doesn't need that authority 21:49:23 <frosch> can we hire them from blizzard? 21:49:33 <andythenorth> you know how [some] newgrf authors obsess about train loading time? 21:49:37 <andythenorth> and make it realistic 21:49:37 <frosch> reaper openings are so boring and annoying to deal with 21:49:37 <Alberth> gn 21:49:43 <frosch> i would rather spend the time on building drones 21:49:43 <andythenorth> bye Alberth 21:49:59 *** Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 21:50:15 <andythenorth> loading times might actually matter for ships 21:50:29 <frosch> andythenorth: the reverse? 21:50:42 <andythenorth> or that too 21:50:44 <andythenorth> dunno 21:50:47 <frosch> infinite many ships can load in parallel, so loading time does not matter at all? 21:50:52 <andythenorth> well yes 21:50:57 <andythenorth> ship model progression is hard 21:51:03 <andythenorth> speed is ok 21:51:06 <andythenorth> Iâve tried size, itâs crap 21:51:13 <andythenorth> so only speed 21:51:19 <andythenorth> no HP, no TE, running cost is blah 21:51:23 <andythenorth> and loading speed isnât shown 21:51:30 <andythenorth> likelihood of sinking 21:51:31 <andythenorth> ? 21:51:32 <frosch> size is for visuals, so you do not have to use multipel ships over each other :p 21:51:49 <andythenorth> size / capacity /s :P 21:52:09 <frosch> capacity and speed is kind of the same 21:52:22 <frosch> but yes, ships are pretty one-dimensional 21:52:31 <frosch> there is only cargo per time 21:52:41 <frosch> because ships move independent from each other 21:53:09 <andythenorth> so speed is the only useful dimension? 21:53:23 <andythenorth> and, in a realistic-ish set, steam vs. non-steam 21:53:23 <frosch> assuming you do not care about payment for delivery speed (which is bad for ships anyway), it's just about amount per time 21:53:37 <frosch> which you can get by increasing capacity, speed, or number of ships 21:53:37 <andythenorth> I just want ships matched to train sizes :P 21:53:46 <frosch> "number of ships" is ugly, if they stack 21:53:58 <frosch> capacity and speed does not seem to make a difference, does it? 21:54:08 <andythenorth> no and yes 21:54:22 <andythenorth> depends how frequently you want to produce at a secondary industry 21:54:40 <andythenorth> and how much it annoys you to have n of the smallest ship, where n is increasingly a large number 21:54:48 <andythenorth> logically, all ships should be 8t and go 30mph 21:54:57 <andythenorth> that is the most logical choice 21:55:13 <frosch> yes, that means your goal is to run 5 (?) ships on every route 21:55:14 <andythenorth> and you build 100 instead of one 800t ship 21:55:33 <frosch> you can achieve that by picking the ship model with matching amount/time 21:55:34 <andythenorth> hmm you have called it close :P 21:55:39 <andythenorth> I usually run 3-4 ships on a route 21:55:54 <andythenorth> 1 loading, 1 travelling to destination, 1 unloading, 1 returning 21:56:30 <frosch> 500 tons/month production, pick a ship that has 100 tons/month transport on the required distance 21:56:59 <frosch> it can be a slow ship with high capacity, or a fast ship with lower capacity. no difference between them 21:57:17 <andythenorth> depends if youâre doing transfers 21:57:19 <frosch> if you want to go "realistic" you pick a rather fixed speed for all ships, and only vary capacity 21:57:39 <frosch> so, i see nothign wrong with your iniital strategy 21:57:41 <andythenorth> if your incoming train fills 75% of a ship vs 100%, you double the route time for the cargo 21:57:49 <frosch> capacity is the only property for ships 21:58:15 <_dp_> btw, what makes authority really annoying in cb is that it kinda snowballs... you need to build trees to get it up but then you need to build roads over those trees making it even worse 21:58:25 <frosch> andythenorth: double? if you have 5 ships you can at most increase it by 20% 21:58:27 <andythenorth> frosch: conclusion seems right, but boring :) 21:58:29 <frosch> or you have a ship too much 21:58:42 <andythenorth> I want to keep capacity same for each model at a given size 21:58:46 <andythenorth> so what to progress? 21:58:49 <_dp_> so once you rating drops below building threshold it's really hard to get it back 21:58:53 <frosch> _dp_: so just build busstops inbetween 21:59:14 <frosch> as said, outstanding in less than a year, with a few busstops and busses 21:59:32 <andythenorth> Road Hog offers minimal capacity increase, or none, some speed increase, and substantial HP increase 21:59:52 <_dp_> there is certain layout for bus stops, if you make more it screws up everything 22:00:02 <_dp_> also rvs are limited 22:00:09 <frosch> andythenorth: with one property there is no progress 22:00:34 <frosch> andythenorth: you pick the ship to match the amount/time requirement for the route. once you got that, there is no progress 22:01:09 <frosch> andythenorth: the only thing you could do is to restrict large/fast ships to later years, so in early years you can only serve short distances or you have to build a lot of ships 22:02:15 <_dp_> and few months is a lot of time, sometimes it's not even worth continuing game if deliveries were missed for few months 22:02:16 <andythenorth> I somewhat did that 22:02:21 <andythenorth> itâs ok, ish 22:03:00 <andythenorth> I am minded to just accept that ships are boring 22:03:17 <andythenorth> but maybe set loading speed faster on modern ships 22:03:19 <andythenorth> total realisms :P 22:03:21 <frosch> that is likely a valid conclusion :p 22:03:29 <andythenorth> players wonât know about loading speed, but eh 22:03:44 <andythenorth> they donât know about payment bonus on refrigerated ship either :P 22:03:49 <frosch> something with only "one property" is likely boring, you cannot weight different aspects 22:04:08 <andythenorth> dunno 22:04:25 <andythenorth> the vehicle sets Iâm doing are predicated on âthereâs one obvious best choice" 22:04:30 <frosch> andythenorth: but ok, "loading" speed actually benefits the "do not stack ships" 22:04:34 <frosch> so, i think it's good 22:04:46 <andythenorth> yeah, Iâll have to just put it in the docs :P 22:04:57 <andythenorth> I think ships should have a safety factor :P 22:05:03 <andythenorth> perhaps thatâs breakdowns 22:05:05 <andythenorth> which I donât use 22:05:15 <frosch> they have a 20% rating bonus at stations 22:05:18 <frosch> which you don't use :p 22:05:30 <andythenorth> I donât use that silly FIRS station rating cheat any more 22:05:36 <frosch> :o 22:05:38 <andythenorth> itâs still there, but I never turn it on 22:05:59 <andythenorth> I wanted it because I was playing NARS 2 ârealistically 22:06:10 <andythenorth> 20 or 30 tile freight trains, single-line railroads 22:06:27 <andythenorth> cross half the map, 5000 or 10000t trains 22:06:28 <andythenorth> silly 22:06:32 <frosch> you can run NARS with 20 tile tranis? 22:06:41 <andythenorth> :) 22:06:56 <frosch> i recall pikka trains to be quite underpowered. is NARS an exception, or did you attach 10 engines? 22:07:03 <andythenorth> attach many engines of course :) 22:07:06 <andythenorth> and freight weight 1 22:07:11 <andythenorth> not the silly high settings 22:07:28 <andythenorth> if RVs would learn to find depots, Iâd turn breakdowns back on 22:07:36 <andythenorth> but I got bored of setting explicit orders 22:07:47 <andythenorth> and watching RVs drive round in circles unable to find depots 22:07:52 <frosch> well, i always play in hilly or mountanious, and pikka's train never fit my needs 22:08:23 <andythenorth> you use OGFX? 22:08:24 <frosch> if you have build "too many" serpentines, you do not have enough space for enough tracks 22:08:41 <frosch> as baseset? yes 22:08:48 <andythenorth> I mean the + grfs 22:09:20 <frosch> i think i played ogfx+trains a lot before nuts was around 22:09:29 *** roidal_ [~roland@62-46-139-70.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 22:10:07 <andythenorth> sinking ships 22:10:09 <frosch> it was the only trainset with refitting that was not realism themed :p 22:10:09 <andythenorth> pirates! 22:10:27 <andythenorth> tractive effort! 22:10:32 <frosch> oh, and autorefit 22:10:42 <frosch> i played one toyland game with autorefit 22:10:58 <frosch> because there was candyfloss, toffee and sugar right next to each other 22:11:12 <frosch> it's the only time i could make use of autorefit 22:11:16 <frosch> because nuts did not allow it 22:11:31 <frosch> maybe i should switch back to ogfx+trains :p 22:11:54 <frosch> oh, and i had a ship route for sweets 22:12:08 <andythenorth> ogfx+trains was on coop servers when I played 22:12:14 <andythenorth> I enjoyed the simplicity 22:12:21 <frosch> because it surpassed the cargo amount that makes sense to transport on a mixed cargo train track 22:12:24 <andythenorth> mostly there is one obvious engine choice, and easy wagon choices 22:12:47 <andythenorth> Iron Horse roster probably looks quite similar to ogfx+trains, in capacities, power etc 22:13:09 <frosch> is iron horse company coloured? 22:13:23 <andythenorth> yes 22:13:51 <frosch> CC became boring 22:15:07 <frosch> maybe i should just hack my ottd locally to apply random cc to all wagons 22:15:18 <frosch> well, determintic random, not blinking :p 22:15:23 <andythenorth> make a setting :P 22:15:37 <andythenorth> Iron Horse randomises 1CC / 2CC wagons, but thatâs all 22:15:40 <frosch> source patches are the more convincing setting :) 22:15:50 <andythenorth> there was idea to add more random colour to wagons, but eh 22:16:06 <frosch> i could also patch iron horse 22:16:12 <frosch> though i recall i wanted to patch firs :p 22:16:20 <andythenorth> itâs pixa recolouring of wagons, so itâs pretty trivial :P 22:16:23 <andythenorth> no drawing needed 22:16:43 <andythenorth> just add more colour maps 22:16:53 <frosch> andythenorth: nah, i would add a recolouring callback, that randomly picks one of the CC or an unrelated colour 22:17:10 <frosch> like: some of the trains are CC, but some are not 22:17:32 <andythenorth> would you tie it to the silly company colours UI? :P 22:17:42 <andythenorth> one day I should fix that silly UI 22:17:56 <frosch> no, that ui insults me 22:18:05 <frosch> it has 4 liveries for pax trains, but 1 for cargo 22:18:11 <frosch> and i never transport pax 22:18:15 <andythenorth> you donât like selecitng a checkbox before using a UI control? :P 22:18:17 <frosch> except with busses to boost towns 22:18:36 <andythenorth> extend it to all the installed cargos? 22:18:44 <andythenorth> coal: 1cc, 2cc 22:18:50 <andythenorth> fish: 1cc, 2cc 22:18:58 <andythenorth> all with useful checkboxes 22:19:11 <frosch> andythenorth: i believe in the rule "a game should not look like excel" 22:19:23 <andythenorth> I think we need more excel, not less 22:19:26 <andythenorth> and a ribbon 22:20:00 <frosch> ribbons turned out to be quite hotkey friendly 22:20:05 <frosch> that actually impressed me 22:20:40 <frosch> on the surface it looks like for dummies, but you can actually use them efficiently 22:21:13 <frosch> maybe vim should add ribbons 22:21:25 <andythenorth> NewRibbons 22:22:13 <frosch> it's like, dummies use touchscreens, pros use keyboard, noone needs a mouse :p 22:22:52 <andythenorth> we need a ribbon in OpenTTD 22:23:27 <frosch> ottd does not have enough useful functions 22:23:37 <frosch> how many of the buttons in the menu do you actually use? 22:23:52 <frosch> i get away with 10 hotkeys or so 22:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what should i imagine under the term "ribbon"? 22:24:18 <frosch> though i have to select "tram" once per game 22:24:25 <frosch> there is no hotkey to switch roadtype 22:24:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: tabbed toolbar 22:24:31 <andythenorth> I had to look it up tbh 22:24:39 <andythenorth> frosch: no there is not :( 22:24:44 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: the stuff that replaced the menu starting with office 2003 22:24:52 <andythenorth> I have shift-A for road, but canât switch tram / not tram 22:25:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch: that explanation did not help 22:25:29 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon 22:25:31 <andythenorth> huh, nuts has railtypes included :O 22:25:40 <andythenorth> I thought that was forbidden 22:25:50 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: it's the answer to "you cannot use pulldown menus with a touchscreen" 22:26:04 <_dp_> pff, I'm out of keys on keybord for hotkeys %) 22:26:15 <andythenorth> more modifiers :P 22:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so, "giant overloaded toolbar" 22:26:27 <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: but the impressive thing is that they also work for hotkeys, better than a pulldown menu 22:26:57 <andythenorth> does the ribbon actually switch context to chosen tool? 22:27:28 <frosch> what? 22:27:46 <andythenorth> when you use a hotkey 22:27:58 <andythenorth> does it switch to the appropriate tab 22:28:19 <frosch> there are hotkeys for specific functions 22:28:26 <frosch> and there are hotkeys to navigate the ribbon 22:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i grew up with wordperfect... it had a nice cheatsheet about all the Fx hotkeys 22:29:06 * andythenorth should to bed 22:29:09 <frosch> the former are essentially the same as in classic menus 22:29:22 <andythenorth> frosch: what did you need to patch in FIRS? :P 22:29:23 <frosch> the latter are better, because the last tab remains active 22:29:55 <frosch> andythenorth: parameters for booster cargos, amount required and effect 22:30:09 <andythenorth> oh that :P 22:30:44 <andythenorth> probably not hard, the use of them is all templated 22:31:24 <frosch> yeah, the only problem is that i got the eddi-illness 22:31:31 <frosch> and only ever talk about stuff 22:31:49 <frosch> is it call "eddithis"? 22:32:02 <frosch> "edditis"? 22:32:26 <frosch> yeah, no "h" 22:33:55 <andythenorth> if you leave it, Iâll eventually do it 22:34:34 <andythenorth> can I have a settng to configure breakdowns per vehicle type? 22:34:53 <andythenorth> so I can have useless ships? 22:35:36 <andythenorth> ship breakdowns are silly anyway, averaged over enough time theyâre equivalent to speed 22:35:45 <andythenorth> they donât block networks 22:36:06 <frosch> hehe, only one property :p 22:36:14 <andythenorth> unreliable ship ~= slow ship 22:36:27 <andythenorth> and more smoke 22:36:42 <andythenorth> can do that in newgrf :P 22:37:11 <frosch> same for aircraft 22:37:16 <andythenorth> I only have 2 or 3 generations of ships anyway, dunno why Iâm worrying about progression 22:37:21 <frosch> also noone likes aircraft 22:37:27 <andythenorth> I do 22:37:29 <andythenorth> but same as ships 22:37:43 <andythenorth> use AV9: buy Pikkaâs equivalent of dakota (DC3) 22:37:50 <andythenorth> use that everywhere 22:38:21 <andythenorth> aircraft only have two properties: speed, and szie 22:38:23 <andythenorth> size * 22:38:29 <andythenorth> due to crashing 22:38:44 <frosch> no 22:38:47 <frosch> they only have "size" 22:38:57 <frosch> speed in air does not matter 22:38:59 <andythenorth> I forgot capacity 22:39:08 <frosch> "size" havitly affects airport throughput 22:39:17 <frosch> well, yes, with "size" i mean "capacity":) 22:39:27 <andythenorth> I was ambigious :P 22:39:33 <_dp_> they only have one bool "is or is not A21" :p 22:39:40 <andythenorth> crashing also heavily affects airport throughput 22:39:44 <_dp_> dunno why other aircrafts exist in game xD 22:39:50 <frosch> as noob i always build the condorde, because it was soo fast, and i thought it woudl transport more 22:40:04 <andythenorth> AV9: Avix Alfa everywhere 22:40:08 <andythenorth> except oil rigs 22:40:19 <frosch> then i discovered that the biggest plane is just better 22:40:28 <frosch> and that for some reason late game planes become smaller again 22:40:35 <frosch> which was an anti-progression 22:40:59 <andythenorth> yeah 22:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i noticed that even as a noob 22:41:12 <andythenorth> because realism 22:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i never had a plane to replace my 747 with 22:41:28 <andythenorth> the planes were literally like theyâre copied from a boeing catalogue 22:41:40 <andythenorth> zero gameplay weighting 22:41:46 <andythenorth> the trains are quite well chosen 22:42:13 <frosch> andythenorth: looks like av9 removed my favorite engine 22:42:19 * andythenorth recommends AV9 strongly 22:42:24 <andythenorth> no zellepin? 22:42:39 <andythenorth> pikka got bored of my zellepin jokes, and punished me for them 22:42:40 <Eddi|zuHause> oil-transporting zeppelin 22:42:57 *** sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-158-76.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 22:43:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the most realistic feature ever!! 22:43:24 <frosch> andythenorth: stratocruiser is my favorite 22:43:41 <Hiddenfunstuff> Why not mercury zeppelin? 22:44:19 <andythenorth> so many planes in AV8 22:44:46 <frosch> but most of them look different 22:44:54 <frosch> which is what matters, doesn't it? 22:45:13 <frosch> well, maybe only the early ones 22:45:17 <andythenorth> ok the stratocruise is nice 22:45:59 <andythenorth> looks matter, but not enough to have 100 planes :P 22:46:37 * andythenorth must to sleep 22:46:39 <andythenorth> bye 22:46:59 <frosch> oh my, more mhl bugs... 22:47:18 <frosch> the height adjustment does not trigger the aircraft inclination 22:47:37 <andythenorth> they just float up, no? 22:47:44 <frosch> when an aircraft takes off, it is first inclined, then turn horizontal, but keeps ascending 22:48:00 <frosch> i should fork ottd 1.4 :p 22:48:05 <andythenorth> climbing without nose pitch 22:48:08 <andythenorth> nice 22:48:27 <andythenorth> fork ottd 0.5 22:48:32 <andythenorth> that was a classic release 22:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting that that never came up in 5 years of development 22:48:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87201-aztw31-2-0-cust156.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:48:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not like the height hysteresis never was under discussion 22:51:46 *** Biolunar [Biolunar@x5d820714.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #openttd 22:56:17 *** frosch [~frosch@x4d0101b3.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 23:17:15 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19495.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:26 *** Wormnest_ [~Wormnest@s5596abd2.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:20:07 *** tt_johannes [~johannes@port-92-203-183-147.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:28:14 *** gelignite [~gelignite@f049070024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/1kso8Ta] 23:29:25 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 23:32:24 *** ant [~anthony@rrcs-24-43-166-245.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 23:37:27 *** ant [~anthony@rrcs-24-43-166-245.west.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [Leaving] 23:41:18 *** realdeal [~realdeal@rrcs-24-43-166-245.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 23:43:18 <realdeal> hello 23:44:13 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:50:34 *** realdeal [~realdeal@rrcs-24-43-166-245.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:53:33 <Supercheese> goodbye