Log for #openttd on 4th February 2016:
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00:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> is there also a timey wimey irc?
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00:17:55  <supermop> yellow aspect patch guy wants green/double yellow/yellow/red so thats what i am drawing
00:18:54  <supermop> but more natural to me (based on signalling i'm more familiar with) would be a distant aspect with green/yellow, and home with red/green
00:19:58  <supermop> so effectively double green/green and yellow/ double yellow/ red and yellow
00:20:42  <supermop> on the subway here they wouldn't show yellow distant aspect if home was at red though
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00:21:52  <supermop> what do you have in germany, Eddi|zuHause ?
00:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> germany is complicated(tm)
00:23:08  <supermop> i feel like separate heads for home and distant is then easier to represent in semaphores as well
00:23:29  <supermop> with a single semaphore, hard to display 4 aspects
00:24:47  <Eddi|zuHause> generally germany has two different types of signal, main signal (which show green/green-yellow/red) and advance siganls (which show green-green/green-yellow/yellow-yellow)
00:25:37  <supermop> are they ever on the same post?
00:26:04  <Eddi|zuHause> main signal means "go at full speed/go at reduced speed/stop" and advance signal means "next signal will be full speed/reduced speed/stop"
00:26:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they can be combined
00:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there are also more modern systems where they are always combined (or unused lights left out)
00:26:55  <supermop> ottd post starts to get silly looking with more than 4 lights
00:27:05  <Eddi|zuHause> the newer ones try to avoid three green lights on the same post
00:28:59  <supermop> hmm
00:29:19  <supermop> i think i will draw double green as my most permissive aspect then
00:30:02  <supermop> as i understand this guy's patch, it is reserving 3 blocks, so distant signal would also be green in most permissive case
00:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, in the case of german signals, normal state would be green+green/green, first stage of slowdown would be green+green/yellow, second stage of slowdown would be green/yellow+yellow/yellow and stop would be red+yellow/yellow
00:42:52  <supermop> Are distant signals placed below the home signals usually?
00:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
00:42:52  <supermop> ok
00:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> example:
00:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and this would be the semaphore variant:
00:44:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the top arm switches between red (horizontal) and green (angled), the second arm switches between nothing (vertical) and yellow (angled, in combination with the top arm this becomes green/yellow)
00:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the yellow disc switches beteween visible (yellow/yellow) and invisible (green/green), and the yellow arm below it flips between vertical (yellow/yellow or green/green) and angled (green/yellow)
00:51:34  <supermop> hmm
00:52:09  <supermop> should cheat and draw one pixel of light per aspect on the backs on signals that face straight up
00:52:19  <supermop> so you can determine aspect
00:52:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like "there's light shining through some hole"?
00:53:32  <supermop> yeah
00:53:52  <supermop> hmm my 4-light home over distant concept doesn't work
00:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want less lights, try the Ks system over the H/V system
00:54:52  <Eddi|zuHause> H/V is what i explained above
00:54:53  <supermop> i have green/green for clear, then green/yellow for caution, and red for stop
00:55:40  <Eddi|zuHause> as i understood from the signal patch, there should be 4 states?
00:55:43  <supermop> top two lights are green and red for home, bottom two are green and yellow for distant, but that only allows 4 aspects
00:55:47  <supermop> i mean 3
00:56:12  <supermop> i can only get one 'caution' out of these 4 lights
00:57:06  <supermop> i guess that's why he wanted green/yellow/yellow/red
00:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> hm. Ks has fewer lights, but it involves flashing states
01:01:06  <supermop> flashing green?
01:01:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so the 4 states would be green/flashing green/yellow/red
01:01:44  <supermop> flashing is more or less permissive than solid green?
01:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> flashing means "next signal will have reduced speed"
01:03:18  <Eddi|zuHause> this is the layout:
01:06:34  <supermop> will that be confusing to players unfamiliar with it?
01:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> more confusing than the existing system already is?
01:07:02  <Eddi|zuHause> minor, i think
01:07:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it should be pretty easily picked up
01:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think the palette contains flashing green
01:07:38  <supermop> well currently no signal in game displays anything other than red or green
01:07:48  <supermop> yellow is intuitive
01:08:53  <supermop> i know that in the uk, in the 80s they experimented with flashing green as more permissive than double green
01:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can use two lights if you want to flip colours of the lights. then you can have something like green/green, green/yellow, yellow/yellow and red/red
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01:09:22  <supermop> when trying to run trains at 150 mph on lines signaled for 125
01:09:38  <sim-al2> Flashing is also somewhat common to "upgrade" aspects, like flashing red for restricting (aka drive on sight) and flashing yellow for another approach aspect
01:10:05  <supermop> color changing lights could work
01:10:40  <supermop> cold reduce all other signals to a single lamp so they are not so damn tall
01:10:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the original (as in TTDPatch) PBS have 3 lights vertically
01:11:11  <supermop> 3 aspects or 4?
01:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd changed that at some point to have more visual difference to the pre/exit signals
01:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause> all signals only ever had 2 aspects
01:11:55  <supermop>
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01:12:24  <supermop> that seems to have home at bottom, but is more like what patch author describes
01:13:23  <sim-al2> Japanese signaling is a bit weird, many railways no longer allow trains to pass signals at stop without permission, so the home/automatic distinction is slowly disappearing
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01:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: pretty much nobody playing this game will have any knowledge about signals other than "green means go, red means stop"
01:20:46  <supermop> i guess green/yellow and yellow/yellow are equally intuitive as  "go slower than green but faster than yellow"
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01:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there is enough difference betweewn single yellow and double yellow
01:23:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so green/yellow fits better
01:24:08  <supermop>
01:24:45  <supermop> the color light part seems easiest, but can change the other yellow to another green
01:29:25  <supermop> could even do it with only 3 lamps if you have green/green+yellow/yellow/red
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02:14:12  <supermop>
02:17:55  <supermop> were semaphores added later? they are not on the same ogfx sheet
02:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> TTO had semaphores, i think TTD did not
02:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> also, there are two sets of semaphores, one for drive-on-left and one for drive-on-right
02:20:22  <supermop> well i guess i'm going to have to do both for this guy
02:23:53  <supermop> do those lights look ok for now?
02:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> difficult to tell out of context
02:27:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't need a pcx
02:27:32  <supermop> ok
02:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> both grfcodec and nml can process png
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04:06:44  <supermop> ok did semaphore versions
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09:04:27  <dihedral> hey hey
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10:02:40  <Kyle> Hey guys need a hand setting up my dedicated server
10:02:41  *** Kyle is now known as Guest2292
10:03:09  <Guest2292> Im using ubuntu, no gui, and ive got the server up and running but its at version 1.3.0
10:03:14  <Guest2292> How do I update it to 1.5.3?
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10:06:20  <Guest2292> Anyone?
10:09:04  <planetmaker> Guest2292, download openttd 1.5.3 from our website and start the server from that binary?
10:09:18  <planetmaker> if your ubuntu repository does not offer a newer OpenTTD, that's the way to go
10:09:26  <Guest2292> Using w3m? I have no desktop environment etc
10:09:59  <planetmaker> wget the proper archive on the server and unpack it.
10:10:23  <planetmaker> wget
10:10:38  <planetmaker> gunzip openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64.tar.gz
10:11:07  <peter1139> why not the .deb?
10:11:27  <Guest2292> Should I unisiall any openttd files before hand?
10:11:34  <planetmaker> cd openttd-1.5.3-linux-generic-amd64
10:11:39  <Guest2292> ubuntu 14.04 LTS is what im running
10:11:39  <planetmaker> ./openttd -D
10:11:54  <planetmaker> peter1139, because I don't know his ubuntu version, thus better going for the generic one
10:12:04  <peter1139> grr
10:12:06  *** peter1139 is now known as peter1138
10:12:34  <planetmaker> use the deb we provide for your version, if you like
10:12:55  <planetmaker> and yes, you can first install the openttd version you have. But if you follow the procedure I lined out, there's no need
10:13:22  <Guest2292> you are some godlike tech support planetmaker
10:13:23  <Guest2292> thank you
10:14:59  <Guest2292> is the the cfg file still in .openttd
10:15:14  <planetmaker> yes. Nothing in .openttd will be removed
10:15:19  <Guest2292> epic, working
10:15:22  <Guest2292> thank you bro
10:15:35  <planetmaker> on ubuntu 14.04 you indeed can de-install your existing and install our deb. But ... doesn't matter either way
10:16:04  <Guest2292> my issue was i ran apt-get install openttd
10:16:09  <Guest2292> which got me the older version
10:16:43  <peter1138> using the generic ones is good for when you want to run nightlies too
10:16:59  <peter1138> not that there's much activity there atm :(
10:17:14  <planetmaker> we don't even have 1.6.0-betas
10:17:22  <planetmaker> which we "should" since christmas
10:18:12  <Guest2292> cheers for the help guys
10:18:13  <Guest2292> cya
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11:22:32  <Wolf01> hi hi
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11:38:14  <peter1138> me o'clock
11:39:26  <Wolf01> uh, it's late, about lunch time
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12:10:09  <Ketsuban> I compared building a stretch of rail to building a stretch of planning rail from Useless Tracks and then upgrading it, and it came out £15 more expensive.
12:14:35  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, clearing the land costs the same, and removing the planning track gives you slightly less money than building it costs
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12:24:09  <Eddi|zuHause> make sure you didn't actually measure different clear land values, like when there's a tree or uneven ground
12:35:31  <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:35:37  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause how are you doing on this fine thursday
12:35:40  <argoneus> have you had a cup of teay et
12:35:41  <argoneus> yet*
12:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't had a cup of tea in like 10 years
12:36:17  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
12:36:17  <argoneus> wow
12:36:19  <argoneus> coffee person?
12:36:21  <Wolf01> he's German, they have a cup of cappuccino before lunch, not tea
12:36:42  <argoneus> tea is fantastic
12:36:45  <argoneus> for one it has taste
12:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i also don't drink coffee
12:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and also, you should never ask a german how he's feeling unless you're prepared to listen to every single of his ailments
12:39:01  <Wolf01> beer
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12:45:08  <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause my body is ready
12:45:12  <argoneus> tell me all about your feelings
12:46:05  <Wolf01> 1d20... fumble
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14:37:16  <Ketsuban> Eddi|zuHause: good point, I forgot I'd set trees to invisible. Tried again with no trees, just plain grass - £30 more expensive to upgrade planning rail.
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14:54:56  <supermop__> Ketsuban: with planning track you have to hire a surveyor, to go stake it out, so 30 quid for his time sounds like a good deal
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15:22:47  <V453000> I would question his knowledge and thus the quality of the project though :P
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16:46:45  <Alberth> hi hi
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16:50:41  <V453000> yo
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17:03:27  <supermop__> gah i just scheduled 5 different lines to share a terminus at 50 day spacing, so 10 days apart line to line, but accidentally scheduled 3 of the lines at 40 day spacing instead of 50
17:03:41  <supermop__> going to be a mess to untangle
17:04:14  <Alberth> \o/  untangling messes is fun
17:05:17  <supermop__> most of what i do in a game lately is meticulously scheduling a complex timetable to work several lines together, then spend twice as long fixing it, because i messed up some part
17:06:23  <Alberth> :)
17:06:32  <supermop__> one of the lines shares with a different main trunk with it's own complex schedule
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17:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i barely managed to interleave my two maglev lines
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17:18:23  <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: it seems the interleaving is the only part of the game i play for anymore
17:23:11  <supermop__> so basically i am only doing the most tedious frustrating work part
17:30:27  <Alberth> somewhere, you have to get something out of it, or you would not do it
17:33:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: sometimes the brain has strange feedback loops
17:34:12  <Alberth> :)
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17:44:11  <supermop__> too bad i don't get paid for it
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18:10:12  <V453000> hm, when I was picking names for NUTS trains it was simple when there is like 120 of them
18:10:18  <V453000> but when I have to pick one, it ain't so easy XD
18:13:01  <_johannes> anyone German here? I'f I'll buy a ticket and don't get a train at a station because the previous train was late, can I continue my travel with a higher class train, like with ICE instead of RE?
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18:15:46  <_johannes> ah ok, it looks like you can do that:
18:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: you have to get some conductor (or the service point) to document the lateness
18:20:33  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: it might be that I won't have time to do that
18:20:51  <_johannes> not even sure if that special station has a service point open at that time...
18:21:08  <Eddi|zuHause> is there no conductor in the train you are in?
18:21:15  <Alberth> V: put them all in the high hat, and draw one
18:21:56  <_johannes> ah, maybe ... should be on an ICE...
18:22:05  <V453000> Alberth: that is now how it works :P
18:29:16  <V453000> got it :>
18:29:50  <Alberth> :)
18:31:02  <V453000> song names ftw :D
18:31:34  <frosch123> _johannes: if you have no confirmation you may have to buy an upgrade ticket from the conductor in the ice, and you can only after your travel request a refund from a service desk
18:33:03  <_johannes> frosch123: if the train starts getting late right before that station (or if it's not sure whether the other train will wait), I won't have time to see the conductor :-/
18:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> if your travel already includes an ICE, it is valid for the whole journey
18:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you only need the lateness confirmation to lift the train binding
18:33:36  <_johannes> hmm or I just stay on exactly that train :D
18:34:18  <_johannes> yeah... the conductors on the other trains would not know of the lateness...
18:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the ICE fee is fixed, not depending on the distance travelled
18:34:56  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: what do you mean? travelling from Berlin to Stuttgart is probably more expensive than from Frankfurt?
18:35:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is a distance price no matter what train you are using, and an ICE price on top of that
18:36:13  <frosch123> _johannes: it costs the same if you take ice from berlin to stuttgart, or if you take a RB from berlin to ulm and the ice only from ulm to stuttgart
18:36:14  <_johannes> ah you mean that additional price is constant?
18:36:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:36:40  <_johannes> ah ok! interesting...
18:36:44  <frosch123> it's your responsibility to use as much as ice as possible, once you have purchased ice at all
18:36:50  <_johannes> :D
18:37:26  <_johannes> though for the "Sparpreis", the more-ice routes look more expensive... probably because they are used by more people...
18:37:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cheap prices usually go very quickly on busy routes
18:40:05  <Eddi|zuHause> also useful to know about the "Sparpreis": the train binding only applies to IC and ICE trains, you can take any RE or RB trains along that route
18:43:30  <supermop__> V453000: you should make the names random
18:43:31  <_johannes> does the Sparpreis even get more expensive if I use a more busy RE?
18:43:58  <V453000> isn't naming them by audio records random enough for a train?
18:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that matters
18:45:02  <supermop__> too bad you can't randomize the name like you can with intro date
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18:45:40  <stardude> hey guys i've got a question regarding a station not accepting an item
18:45:44  <V453000> no reason to either tbh :) would only cause confusion for no gain
18:45:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27506 trunk/src/lang/french.txt (2016-02-04 19:45:36 +0100 )
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> french: 13 changes by OliTTD
18:45:48  <stardude> oh lol nvm
18:45:51  <stardude> just figured it out
18:47:14  <supermop__> confusion would be the point
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18:49:14  <andythenorth> o/
18:49:18  <stardude> yeah the station just doesn't accept those goods
18:49:20  <stardude> SILLY ME
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18:51:59  <V453000> sup andy
18:52:06  <V453000> I am modelling the most badass train ever seen
18:52:09  <V453000> :D
18:52:20  <V453000> also, dual heading has been trashed
18:52:26  <andythenorth> wise
18:54:09  <andythenorth> all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds
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19:02:20  <V453000> xd
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19:10:32  <_johannes> hmm if you use the Sparpreis and have one part bought with an RE, can you use REs on other routes for that part?
19:11:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, usually "routes" are not point-to-point but "anything within this area"
19:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what specific areas there are, you should ask a more knowledgable person
19:12:51  <frosch123> they are printed on the ticket
19:13:03  <frosch123> from: to: via:
19:13:15  <frosch123> usually via lists multiple stations which refer to various possible routes
19:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but "via" is not actual stations to go through, but rather the boundaries of the area
19:20:43  <_johannes> ah ok...
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19:46:23  <andythenorth> silly old cat
19:54:37  <andythenorth> so why is 16GB ‘enough’?
19:54:49  <andythenorth> for years, every RAM threshold has quickly been breached
19:55:03  <andythenorth> but 16GB just hasn’t, at all, for several years now
19:55:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you call "quick"
19:57:00  <andythenorth> first computer I owned in 1999 had 32MB
19:57:32  <andythenorth> that’s 16.5 years ago
19:57:40  <andythenorth> I’ve had 16GB for at least 3 years, possibly 4
19:58:39  <frosch123> increase the number of vms
19:58:53  <andythenorth> so over 75% of my computer owning life, RAM increased by a factor of 256
19:59:02  <andythenorth> and for the other 25%, RAM increased by factor 0
19:59:19  <andythenorth> I only *have* 16GB to run multiple VMs
19:59:24  <andythenorth> otherwise 8GB is enough
19:59:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's the same for cpu speed :p
19:59:50  <andythenorth> so some fundamental of limit of general purpose computing behaviour has been hit
20:00:15  <frosch123> ssd is pretty much the only thing that is still growing exponentially
20:00:38  <andythenorth> battery life seems to grow, maybe linear, not sure
20:01:23  <andythenorth> maybe we hit the point where photo / video / audio filesizes don’t grow through enhanced resolution
20:01:31  <andythenorth> and a person only has so many of them
20:01:46  * andythenorth should play OTTD
20:01:51  <andythenorth> instead of navel gazing
20:01:53  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
20:02:00  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 32*2**((2015-1999)/1.5)/1024
20:02:00  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 50.796833663
20:02:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: i have half of my ram assigned to a ramdisk, which i use as target for compiling ottd
20:02:23  <frosch123> it speeds up compilation :p
20:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that can't be right
20:02:37  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 32*2**((2015-1999)/2)/1024
20:02:37  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 8
20:03:02  <andythenorth> yeah, I did my calculation wrong somehow
20:03:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so 32MB in 1999 is between 8 and 50GB today
20:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on what your moore's law scale factor is
20:03:37  <andythenorth> frosch123: RAM is that much faster than your SSD? o_O
20:03:58  <andythenorth> I should ramdisk Iron Horse :P
20:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: shouldn't cache take care of that?
20:04:53  <frosch123> with disk the best compilation time of ottd was with -j (cores + 1)
20:05:08  <frosch123> with ramdisk it was as fast with -j cores
20:05:30  <frosch123> the object files with debug symbols and stuff are quite huge
20:05:38  <frosch123> way bigger than the source code
20:05:50  <frosch123> also i have only an old ssd
20:05:55  <frosch123> and i use it only for /usr
20:06:41  <andythenorth> frosch123: I forget, did you have feedback on IAHC economy?
20:06:43  <andythenorth> o_O
20:07:29  <frosch123> i suggested to add bonusses for delivering multiple input cargos for more industry types
20:07:45  <andythenorth> so food processor?
20:07:48  <frosch123> specifically food proeccsing plant
20:07:55  <frosch123> yes, i still only played the food chain
20:08:00  <andythenorth> should I add MNSP there or not?
20:08:03  * andythenorth is on the fence
20:08:27  <frosch123> the thing is: there are two distinations for maize, and 3 for fruit
20:08:41  <frosch123> there should be a benefit in spreading them to multiple industry types
20:08:45  <frosch123> instead of dumping them into one
20:08:54  <andythenorth> I could remove fruit from the port
20:09:01  <andythenorth> there is room here to rethink things
20:09:05  <andythenorth> there are 2 cargo slots unused
20:09:13  <frosch123> currently "alcohol" and "food" are completely equivalent
20:09:14  <andythenorth> also I don’t know if livestock adds much
20:09:30  <frosch123> both are produced from the same, and are delivered to the same
20:09:31  <andythenorth> yeah, alcohol has that problem in all economies
20:09:41  <andythenorth> anywhere people want to eat, they also want to drink
20:09:45  <andythenorth> and vice versa :P
20:09:48  <frosch123> so, there should be a benefit in producing both
20:09:58  <andythenorth> GS tells you to do it? o_O
20:10:02  <andythenorth> oh, the non-GS case :P
20:10:11  <Rubidium> make a Scandinavian economy
20:10:22  <andythenorth> I did ::P
20:10:45  <andythenorth> removed Alcohol though
20:10:49  <andythenorth> unrealisms?
20:10:57  <Rubidium> no alcohol to supermarket but to state owned shop
20:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> no alcohol in supermarket? which barbaric country is that?
20:12:20  * andythenorth considers removing livestock and stockyard
20:12:25  <andythenorth> and sending MNSP to food processor
20:12:40  <andythenorth> then adding some other export cargo
20:12:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: variety of cargos is good
20:12:47  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: oh, apparantly I lied... < 3.5% is allowed in the supermarket (in Sweden)
20:12:58  <frosch123> but they should also be used
20:13:02  <andythenorth> frosch123: I would like more that is ‘not seen lots of places before'
20:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: wtf kind of beer has <3.5%?
20:13:23  * andythenorth still considering Rare Minerals or something
20:13:27  <andythenorth> but quantities are low
20:13:36  <Rubidium> (or 4.75% in Norway or 4.7% in Finland)
20:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that still seems to exclude most useful stuffs
20:14:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: better go for visual diversity :p
20:14:29  <frosch123> piles of dirt do not look any different
20:14:42  <frosch123> organic stuff is a lot more colourful
20:14:54  <andythenorth> so livestock might be worth keeping
20:15:00  <andythenorth> unique wagons, unique station tiles
20:15:18  <andythenorth> dunno, I haven’t used it in my test game, but that’s due to Busy Bee
20:15:19  <frosch123> i would rahter like to see tomatoes and bananas :p than phosphate and manganese
20:15:29  <andythenorth> I could split up fruit
20:15:36  <andythenorth> I wouldn’t mind that
20:15:49  <andythenorth>
20:15:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but most fruit would go to the same destination?
20:15:58  <andythenorth> ^ roughly my guide, not sticking to it rigidly
20:16:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s a problem yes
20:16:03  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so do the minerals
20:16:07  <frosch123> all to bulk terminal
20:16:08  <andythenorth> minerals -> port
20:16:14  <andythenorth> I think a banana train would be nice
20:16:19  <andythenorth> I considered rice also
20:16:51  <Eddi|zuHause> should put rice in an asian economy
20:16:54  <andythenorth> but rice seems more east asian
20:16:58  <andythenorth> yes, I wanted to save it
20:17:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: add a youth hostel in addition the the hotel :p
20:17:05  <andythenorth> economies are pointless if they overlap too much
20:17:14  <andythenorth> truck drivers bunkhouse
20:17:18  <frosch123> accepts alcohol, energy drinks and junk food
20:19:10  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have "salt" in some economy?
20:19:38  <frosch123> there are at least three different ways to harvest salt
20:20:01  <andythenorth> I want to do salt
20:20:08  <andythenorth> maybe australian economy, or so
20:20:25  <andythenorth> I think the most useful cargos are those that have interesting specialised vehicles
20:20:33  <andythenorth> at least for my definition of ‘useful'
20:20:40  <frosch123> hmm, asian: rice, spices, china ware
20:21:00  <andythenorth> A -> B, C -> B, D -> B, all in open wagons, is boring
20:22:02  <frosch123> rare minerals, electronics :p
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20:27:46  <andythenorth> I can only think of sugarcane to add variety of wagons / trucks
20:28:27  <andythenorth> but eh I was going to use that elsewhere also
20:29:07  <andythenorth> so I keep livestock, and make food processor combine cargos, happy days
20:29:39  <frosch123> i think it is about big fruits vs small fruits
20:29:49  <frosch123> so hoppers vs "cages"
20:30:17  <andythenorth> how about I split fruit to ‘palm products’ and ‘bananas’ or such?
20:30:58  <frosch123> palm products sounds like edible oil
20:31:54  <andythenorth> hmm
20:32:05  <andythenorth> I intended it as the input to edible oil
20:32:08  <andythenorth> along with nuts
20:33:17  <andythenorth> yams? o_O
20:33:54  <andythenorth>
20:35:39  <andythenorth>
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20:49:57  <andythenorth> when did the windows version of OpenTTD get malware added? :o
20:50:16  <andythenorth> Users/andy/Library/Application Support/CrossOver/Bottles/OpenTTD/drive_c/Program Files/OpenTTD/uninstall.exe: Win.Adware.Agent-59032 FOUND
20:50:24  <Markk> It was a patch for 2 weeks ago
20:50:35  <frosch123> uninstal.exe :p
20:50:38  <Markk> Just for the lulz.
20:50:57  <frosch123> the only virus i ever found on one of my computers was inside an uninstall.exe, which i never ran
20:51:37  <Markk> :D
20:51:57  <Markk> I havn't had a virus, malware or spyware in over 10 years now.
20:52:54  <andythenorth> as far as you know
20:53:04  <andythenorth> you really have no idea :)
20:54:43  <Markk> I hate to use the computer of my matriarch, she clicks on ads, bad links in e-mails and install sheit she really shouldn't.
20:59:56  <glx> Markk: how many add-ons in IE ?
21:00:19  <Markk> Too many
21:00:31  <frosch123> toolbars on more than half of the screen?
21:00:35  <Markk> And some sheit to a startpage
21:00:56  <Markk> frosch123: Ye, something like that
21:01:00  <glx> 5 minutes to launch the browser
21:01:05  <Markk> Hah
21:01:13  <Markk> Only 5 minutes?
21:01:32  <andythenorth> that’s the obvious stuff
21:01:40  <Markk> Took about 30-40 minutes to start the computer, start the browser and access
21:02:05  <Markk> I had a field day with removing most of it.
21:02:50  <glx> some things install others on uninstall
21:03:15  <andythenorth> I love finding something called ‘roottools.conf'
21:03:27  <andythenorth> what could go wrong?
21:03:41  <glx> and the important point is to disconnect internet before trying to clean stuff
21:04:43  <andythenorth> eh well
21:06:08  <andythenorth> also to never connect the computer to any network
21:06:13  <andythenorth> nor use any removable storage
21:06:37  <andythenorth> you also need to disable the microphone, video camera, and keyboard
21:06:52  <frosch123> only access internet from within a vm, which you reset everyday :p
21:07:08  <andythenorth> you can’t be sure the VM doesn’t have a keystroke logger
21:07:23  <andythenorth> or that your motherboard doesn’t have firmware which sends your secrets somewhere
21:08:02  <andythenorth> every key on your keyboard has a distinct sound, so with a good mic, your banking passwords are easy to learn
21:08:23  <frosch123> all my passwords sound the same
21:08:29  <frosch123> ctrl+c/v
21:08:47  <andythenorth> your clipboard is logged though, eh
21:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause> there was an incident a few years ago where a school gave out laptops, and then monitored the students through the builtin webcam
21:09:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that didn't go over well :p
21:09:14  <frosch123> yeah, i recall that one :p
21:09:27  <Markk> eswst555es55 <- most of my keystrokes
21:09:29  <andythenorth> I love stuff like this
21:09:32  <Markk> (Playing OTTD)
21:09:48  <andythenorth> it’s astounding when people not only install malware, but pay for the privilege
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21:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: what? the most common key is F1, followed by a and r
21:10:47  <andythenorth> for just 0 / year, you can leak all the information from your business / family to criminals
21:11:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: "Was looking for password logger and found it here. Logging passwords and keystrokes in my native language. Works better than other software" <- it has awesome reviews
21:11:08  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I never use F1 in OTTD?
21:11:13  <andythenorth> they are awesome
21:11:23  <andythenorth> I’m not saying that one *is* run by criminals
21:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: you must be playing multiplayer :p
21:11:29  <andythenorth> for the record
21:11:32  <Markk> 5 is for railroad, s is for signals.
21:11:36  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Nope, SP.
21:11:57  <Eddi|zuHause> a is for railroad :p
21:12:03  <andythenorth> also the ‘malware removal tools’ that are blatantly malware :P
21:12:09  <andythenorth> for which users pay
21:12:17  <Markk> No, 1-5 is the different types of railroads.
21:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. a is the only type you need
21:12:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and as a bonus it opens the rail toolbar if it's not already open
21:12:40  <Markk> 1-4 is the fixed-direction and 5 is the flexible one.
21:12:48  <Markk> I always have it opened
21:13:09  <Eddi|zuHause> not if you build other types of vehicles
21:13:13  <frosch123> ottd still has no hotkeys to pick directions for depots and stuff
21:13:24  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I usually don't.
21:13:31  <andythenorth> should ottd have those hotkeys?
21:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i build trams a lot
21:13:46  <andythenorth> I miss them sometimes, but otoh, I don’t remember shortcuts very well :P
21:13:50  <frosch123> yes, they are the only buttons i regualry need to press by mouse
21:13:58  <Eddi|zuHause> also, a is right next to s
21:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is way over there
21:14:14  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: And I always make the railroad toolbar sticky, so it won't close when I hit delete to close the other windows.
21:14:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i would never reliably hit 5
21:14:24  <andythenorth> I have to navigate station building UI with mouse
21:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: problem is that stickyness goes away if you switch construction types
21:14:49  <Markk> Ye?
21:14:57  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: play the game somewhen
21:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well... :p
21:15:09  <frosch123> that has not been an issue for 2 years
21:15:13  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I mostly use railroads, so that's not an isse.
21:15:35  <frosch123> stickyness can be saved on disk
21:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i still stick with a being better than 5
21:15:46  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I've used 5 for railraods for almost 11 years now, I'm not about to change it now.
21:16:00  * andythenorth wonders how reliable Apple network traffic inspector is
21:16:09  <andythenorth> and how easily malware could hide from it
21:16:18  <andythenorth> should probably ask on some mac channel eh? :P
21:16:20  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Then you should use a, I respect your choise.
21:16:20  <frosch123> anyway, the most imoprtant change i did to the default hotkeys was mapping "d" to depot, instead of useless dynamite
21:16:35  <andythenorth> “fanbois say OS X is immune to viruses”
21:16:37  <andythenorth> yeah
21:16:39  <andythenorth> right
21:16:50  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: But I like 5 and I'm gonna stick to it.
21:17:08  <Eddi|zuHause> RELIGOUS WAR!!!
21:17:18  <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is the work of the devil!
21:17:25  <andythenorth> how easy is to completely hide a process on *nix systems?
21:17:33  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I'm a Satanist.
21:17:50  <frosch123> andythenorth: i like the weeks when there are three independent headlines about secuirity issues with ios, android and winphone
21:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> 5 is the number of corners of a pentagram
21:18:06  <Markk> Yep
21:18:13  <Markk> It's a beautiful sign.
21:18:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: easy, give it a cryptic name like "flush-537"
21:18:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: is there a week without that?
21:18:39  <Markk> I also have a necklace with a downwards-pointing crucifix.
21:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: on windows you hide processes by naming them "svchost"
21:19:02  <andythenorth> it would probably be much easier to just hide the process in some other app
21:19:06  <andythenorth> like something in the ports tree
21:19:14  <andythenorth> ports tree review standards are impeccable, right?
21:19:16  <andythenorth> :P
21:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have no clue what ports tree is
21:19:50  <andythenorth> your distro must have some equivalent thing with different name
21:19:59  <andythenorth> you probably run yum update or whatever for it
21:20:18  <andythenorth> ports is the BSD name
21:20:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really an explanation
21:20:38  <Rubidium> andythenorth: just run your malware at UEFI level and it'll be equally hidden from Windows, DOS, OS X, Unix, Linux, ...
21:20:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause it’s the package manager, where you literally bring in hundreds or thousands of untrusted packages, probably with sudo
21:21:20  <andythenorth> Rubidium: yeah, but there’ s no mileage losing sleep over that.  Not interesting
21:21:34  <andythenorth> it’s like proposing that all the chips made in china leak secrets to chinese government
21:21:42  <andythenorth> or that NSA have trivially cracked SSL
21:21:45  <frosch123> i liked the story about the thing that spread to routers, and cleaned them from other malware
21:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if your malware escalated this far, you have a huge problem...
21:22:13  <frosch123> esp. since my router became quite unstable over the years, but recently became better again :p
21:22:36  <andythenorth> ha
21:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's industry standard that malware first fixes the security holes, to prevent other people from getting in as well and disturbing it
21:23:25  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: andy is brittish, he only communicates with key pairs, which the government handed to him
21:23:34  * andythenorth couldn’t comment
21:23:53  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you think there’s no malware in any packages? o_O
21:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there were plenty of cases of malicious software for phones that distributed through the official app stores
21:25:23  <andythenorth> yes, that’s an obvious attack vector
21:26:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but the more obscure your distribution gets, the less likely is that anyone actually tries that
21:26:29  <Eddi|zuHause> unless they are specifically targeting you.
21:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that's also where the "there are no viruses for mac" mindset comes from. when macos was actually "obscure"
21:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but it has definitely lost that state
21:30:24  * andythenorth wonders
21:30:39  <andythenorth> whenever I read a ‘security alert: how to protect your phone / mac / blah’
21:30:48  <andythenorth> and it recommends downloading a third party tool
21:30:59  <andythenorth> there is a little alarm sound in my head
21:31:02  <andythenorth> tinfoil hat?
21:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that alarm is probably correct :p
21:31:38  <andythenorth> I might have to start running everything in a VM
21:31:54  <andythenorth> single-occ per application / service
21:32:01  <andythenorth> that’s going to work brilliantly
21:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> don't phones already do that?
21:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a pretty good approach, actually. just you make it more problematic to share data between processes
21:34:26  <frosch123> what data to share?
21:34:31  <frosch123> all knowledge is on wikipedia
21:36:08  <andythenorth> I wouldn’t be able to play openttd :P
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21:36:25  <Eddi|zuHause> things like "i wrote this text in $editor, now send it as e-mail"
21:36:31  <andythenorth> nah can’t do that
21:36:39  <andythenorth> isolated VM, no network access
21:36:54  <andythenorth> and you’re not allowed to access to any volumes outside the VM
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21:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly.
21:37:26  <andythenorth> but you can’t use any VMs anyway
21:37:34  <andythenorth> because you don’t know if you can trust the hypervisor
21:37:46  <andythenorth> and even if you thought you can trust the hypervisor, you can’t trust the host
21:38:02  <andythenorth> and even if you trust the host, you can’t trust any network at all
21:38:08  <andythenorth> nor any media
21:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: now you're in "you can't trust science anyway, so my religion is as valid as yours" territory
21:38:21  <Wolf01> what if you can't trust the one between the keyboard and the chair?
21:38:28  <andythenorth> you can’t do that either
21:38:36  <andythenorth> you have to remove all admin permissions from them at least
21:39:09  * andythenorth has been reading infosec advice / requirements from governments around the world
21:39:16  <andythenorth> some is very very good
21:39:19  <andythenorth> some is very very odd
21:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the thing is, you need SOMETHING to trust. it will never be 100%, but "close enough". to build your foundation
21:40:37  <andythenorth> you have to build your own computer
21:40:39  <andythenorth> from sand
21:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you're in with the flat-earthers and creationists and lizard-conspiracies
21:40:48  <frosch123> yeah, something like the axiom of choice
21:40:53  <andythenorth> and examine all the sand for nano-level manipulation
21:41:48  <andythenorth> although the govt advice ‘most cyber attacks on businesses are caused by not setting passwords’ is quite genuinely useful
21:41:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but you have no device for that observation that you can trust
21:42:11  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and even if you did
evil demon hypothesis
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21:42:32  <andythenorth>
21:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that reminds me of when elementary logic came down to the question "is there an = function?"
21:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> because the basic logic axioms cannot create such a function. only a function that behaves like =, but cannot distinguish certain models
21:45:51  <Eddi|zuHause> without such an = function, you cannot detect the presence of such an evil demon
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21:54:33  <andythenorth> funny old epistemology
21:54:45  <andythenorth> you just can’t count on anything eh?
21:54:59  <andythenorth> and yet
21:55:03  <andythenorth> the sun will also rise
21:56:07  <andythenorth> none of this gets pixels drawn :D
21:56:28  <frosch123> add some futuristic invisible engines
21:56:52  <andythenorth> how will I know they’re there?
21:59:24  <frosch123> just reverse the burden of proof
21:59:37  <frosch123> bug reporters have to prove that they are not there
22:01:14  <frosch123> also, ships cannot drive empty, they always have to transport some jetsam
22:01:24  <frosch123> so, invisible ships are basically only cargo graphics
22:02:17  <frosch123> btw. you should also add some cats throughout your graphics
22:02:25  <frosch123> hide a cat in every firs industry
22:03:24  <frosch123> my nephew had a picture book about a car workshop
22:04:00  <frosch123> on every page some worker was just holding a coffee mug and was just watching
22:04:35  <frosch123> though they took turns :)
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22:07:23  <andythenorth> the cat thing :)
22:07:26  <andythenorth> like where’s wally
22:07:35  <andythenorth> or the artist who put a mouse in every painting
22:07:48  <andythenorth> or a series of books when I was a child, find the yellow duck on every page
22:08:02  <andythenorth> mostly in german (they were books to learn keywords)
22:08:57  <frosch123> huh? what do brittish children learn from german books?
22:09:46  <andythenorth> german mostly :P
22:10:19  <frosch123> well, when i learned foreign languages i did no longer search for yellow ducks :)
22:10:33  <M-E> frosch123: nazism! :P
22:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i somehow doubt the effectiveness of that
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22:11:52  <andythenorth> me too :)
22:12:03  <andythenorth> my german is not good
22:12:06  <frosch123> my sister-in-law and brother-in-law-in-law-in-law are english and read some english books to my nephews. from that i know that the language is of little importance
22:12:10  <andythenorth> can’t even remember how to say schlect
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22:12:14  <frosch123> as long as you read something to them :p
22:12:23  * andythenorth also must go to sleep
22:12:26  <andythenorth> bye
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22:13:04  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: children books are useful. things like the summoning dark cannot handle them
22:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> that sentence does not parse
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23:03:10  <supermop__> Eddi|zuHause: maybe sentences containing the term "the summoning dark" are better left unparsed
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23:18:12  <Wolf01> 'night
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