Log for #openttd on 6th February 2016:
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00:08:15  <Quatroking> sim-al2, why's that? The train I ride daily hits 130km/h all the time
00:08:32  <Quatroking> isn't the wire contact thingy the same on trains and trams
00:08:33  <Quatroking> mostly
00:09:46  <sim-al2> Tram wiring is usually not as high tech, although on modern systems it's probably fine
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00:27:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Quatroking: catenary is susceptible to waves at higher speeds, so high speed catenary has special designs to counter those
00:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody is going to put 300km/h certified catenary on tram tracks
00:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if you look at tram catenary, it usually hasn't got a lot of support points, so it is quite loose
00:31:02  <Eddi|zuHause> train catenary usually has two wires, a contact wire and a support wire
00:31:19  <Eddi|zuHause> this increased support allows to put higher tension on the cable, so it cannot move as much
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02:45:23  <Flygon> Yeah
02:45:34  <Flygon> Tram catenary changes depending on the part of the network here
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07:30:50  <andythenorth> o/
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08:35:27  <knight9967> hello?
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08:43:48  <andythenorth> comes, goes
08:43:55  <V453000> gg
08:46:15  <andythenorth>
08:47:07  <Alberth> haha, the load looks heavier than the carrying truck :)
08:47:52  <andythenorth> yup
08:48:06  <andythenorth> it is probably only 120hp engine too
08:48:10  <andythenorth> low gearing though
08:53:22  <andythenorth> hmm Road Hog
08:53:38  <andythenorth> first 2 generations of trucks can’t reach their top speed, HP is too low
08:53:56  <andythenorth> if they have 16 tiles or so of flat straight road they get to top speed
08:53:57  <Supercheese> add more horses
08:54:51  <andythenorth> the capacity is about twice realism
08:55:02  <V453000> I really hate realistic acceleration for RVs tbh
08:55:08  <andythenorth> which means laden weight is twice realism
08:55:18  <andythenorth> so I should just cheat HP, yes?
08:55:22  <Supercheese> which mean duplex horses
08:55:39  <Supercheese> should be dependent on your parameter setting no?
08:56:01  <andythenorth> possibly yes
08:56:03  <andythenorth> boring to code that
08:56:33  <Supercheese> well, not extra code, I mean your parameters already state that the capacities are more-than-realistic
08:56:47  <Supercheese> so extra horses is expected as well
08:57:21  <Supercheese> extra code optional
08:57:32  <andythenorth> well I could adjust HP to match capacity cheat
08:57:35  <andythenorth> dunno if I care
08:57:35  <Supercheese> parameters are nice, but yeah they conflate your switch blocks massivelyt
08:58:12  <V453000> I am always trapped between the idea of "parameters are nice to have"and "you should just put the grf in the game and it should just work"
08:58:20  <V453000> sensible defaults are certainly helpful but still
08:59:18  <_johannes> hello
08:59:30  <_johannes> is there something like int32_t in the openttd source?
09:00:09  <_johannes> ah found it, nvm
09:01:10  <andythenorth> V453000: I am “you should just put it in the game and it should work"
09:01:21  <andythenorth> but a few parameters for cheating are ok
09:01:27  <V453000> indeed
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09:26:07  <andythenorth> ha looks like I already made RV TE much higher than default
09:26:14  <andythenorth> because otherwise acceleration sucks
09:31:42  <_johannes> for that graph converter I'm writing, I need a small header + cpp file which need both be included by openttd and the exporter...
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09:31:59  <_johannes> what is a good place in the source tree to put these files?
09:32:55  <_johannes> also, where should I put the cpp file for the external graph converter? (it has its own main() function)
09:34:23  <Flygon> I want to
09:34:40  <Flygon> Well, I just hit the wrong channel
09:34:43  <Flygon> Hi #openttd!
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09:50:43  <Alberth> _johannes: look at eg how strgen does it
09:50:55  <_johannes> Alberth: they have an own directory
09:51:25  <_johannes> so I should put the common files there, too?
09:52:13  <Alberth> and strgen uses code of the main program , like     #include "../misc/getoptdata.h"
09:53:53  <Alberth> common code is best in src, and not in directories of other programs
09:54:09  <Alberth> makes it easy to strip out all the additional programs
09:54:19  <andythenorth> meh
09:54:28  <Alberth> hem
09:54:31  <andythenorth> TE coefficient capped at 1
09:54:33  <andythenorth> bah
09:54:46  <Alberth> I hope it's afraction? :)
09:54:59  <andythenorth> 0-1, float
09:55:04  <andythenorth> I need more than 1 :P
09:56:31  <_johannes> Alberth: should common files also be in the src directory if that common code is only use by openttd for the graph video driver?
09:57:19  <Alberth> aren't there dedicated directories for video drivers?
09:58:17  <Alberth> not sure that "graph" is a very useful name, it feels a bit too generic
09:58:22  <_johannes> Alberth: yes, but I don't want to spoil them with files like "common.h" :P
09:58:46  <_johannes> Alberth: yes, maybe railnet or something might be better
09:58:51  <Alberth> a lot of things can be called "graph", not in the last place all the cargo-dist stuff
09:59:26  <andythenorth>
09:59:39  <Alberth> I wouldn't worry too much about the place of the file; it's easy to move it afterwards
09:59:39  <andythenorth> “Use more specific, concrete, and informative synonyms like users_by_id or on_success.”
09:59:53  <andythenorth> “Vague names like lookup_table or callback are useless in much application code"
10:00:51  <_johannes> Alberth: ok, thanks
10:01:02  <Alberth> nice andy :)
10:01:35  <Alberth> I have already started to see program code as just text like a normal report, but it just happens to be understandable for a computer too :)
10:03:03  <Milek7> server can modify companies money?
10:09:27  <andythenorth> there is a nice quote from the novelist Kingsley Amis “the purpose of writing is to be understood"
10:09:30  <andythenorth> applies to code also
10:09:37  <andythenorth> even if the only reader is Future You
10:11:18  <planetmaker> Milek7, with the proper game script: yes
10:11:23  <Alberth> /me makes link from understandable code to documented code
10:11:29  <planetmaker> good morning everyone :)
10:11:55  <Alberth> mornink planetmaker
10:13:28  <andythenorth> lo planetmaker
10:13:41  <Alberth> right, doxymentation is not different, it's an extension of writing understandable code....
10:14:57  <Alberth> yep good morning indeed, merged two topics into one :)
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10:19:32  <V453000> just increase weight andy
10:19:35  <V453000> if you need moar TE
10:19:48  <V453000> idk how that works with RVs but with trains it is the only way :)
10:19:56  <V453000> heyo pm
10:20:11  <Flygon> I'd love someday
10:20:19  <Flygon> To roll out roads just like traintracks in OpenTTD
10:20:25  <Flygon> But that'd be a major MAJOR patch :3
10:20:41  <V453000> roll out?
10:20:48  <Flygon> Like
10:20:51  <Flygon> One lane per tile
10:20:53  <Flygon> Diagonals
10:21:01  <Flygon> More realistic things like... say
10:21:07  <Flygon> You have a Freeway offramp
10:21:13  <Flygon> So you create another lane to the left
10:21:18  <Flygon> It goes for a hundred or so meters
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10:21:24  <Flygon> Then diverges off to the other road
10:21:31  <Flygon> (assuming drive on the left)
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10:22:22  <Alberth> you'll get hopelessly entangled in the grid limitations very fast, I think
10:22:55  <Alberth> I once tried working out how to do a diagonal road in a grid, and it failed for me
10:23:14  <Flygon> Ehh...
10:23:19  <Flygon> I'm no computer scientist
10:23:21  <Flygon> Or scientist
10:23:23  <Flygon> Or coder
10:23:26  <V453000> same as rails
10:23:26  <Flygon> Or anything really intelligent
10:23:30  <Flygon> lol
10:23:33  <Flygon> I'm not smart
10:23:35  <Flygon> Sorry :)
10:23:35  <V453000> but the thing is, the roads would be surprisingly ugly for you
10:23:45  <V453000> current roads have round corners
10:23:51  <V453000> diagonal roads couldn't
10:23:51  <Alberth> Flygon: not in code, just on paper, in a grid
10:24:08  <andythenorth> well
10:24:15  <Flygon> Well... they COULD have rounded corners with a lot of beating around making a shitload of art assets
10:24:17  <Flygon> And tricky coding
10:24:26  <Flygon> But then it becomes a mangled mess of trying to make shit pretty
10:24:32  <andythenorth> in the 1st generation, these trucks have 150% of realistic HP
10:24:34  <V453000> not happening wiht openttd
10:24:39  <Flygon> Yeah, pmuch
10:24:42  <andythenorth> but by 4th generation they have 100% of realistic HP
10:24:43  <Flygon> Perhaps with a 3D rendererr
10:24:44  <andythenorth> because trucks
10:24:47  <Flygon> But not 2D
10:25:03  <Flygon> Pre-rendering hits the same issues with trying to render EVERYTHING
10:25:08  <andythenorth> * assuming all truck companies buy most powerful Volvo / Scania trucks
10:25:18  <Flygon> Same thing happens with any computer app :D
10:25:25  <Flygon> Do you pre-render a visual effect? Or do you generate it live?
10:25:29  <Flygon> It's just easier to generate it live
10:25:35  <Flygon> Even if your hardware's really weak
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10:26:35  <Flygon> We're not going to implement a 3D renderer into OpenTTD, I presume xP
10:27:08  <andythenorth> hmm, I could do Dutch lorries :P
10:27:15  <andythenorth> then power could be 50% of what it is now
10:27:43  <V453000> XD
10:27:56  <V453000> This NewGRF is not expecting any hills.
10:28:14  <andythenorth> flat country, frugal truck drivers
10:28:29  <andythenorth> truck HP has been pushed upwards constantly by Scania and Volvo
10:28:40  <andythenorth> Scania had 350hp in 1968
10:28:52  * andythenorth truck nerd
10:28:56  <andythenorth> not just a train channel
10:29:35  <V453000> I actually wanted to make a RV set for some weird reason
10:29:36  <V453000>
10:29:38  <V453000> one of them :)
10:29:50  <andythenorth> yair
10:29:57  <andythenorth> bit super realisms though :)
10:29:58  <V453000> rest :D
10:30:01  <V453000> yes
10:30:24  <andythenorth> sooner have BRIX style RVs
10:31:10  <V453000> will see, but probably won't be using these models anywhere for now :D
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10:31:38  <andythenorth> they’re nice, but not TTD eh
10:31:39  <andythenorth> :)
10:31:59  <V453000> anything can be TTD eh
10:32:04  <andythenorth> eh
10:32:07  <andythenorth> eh eh?
10:32:13  <Flygon> Let's put a Flygon into OpenTTD
10:32:17  <Flygon> Passenger capacity: 1
10:32:18  <andythenorth> ah, the world of not enough sleep for andythenorth
10:32:29  <Flygon> Airspeed: I cbf doing the calculations
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10:33:22  <Supercheese> wouldn't work well in arctics, Flygon's are 4x vulnerable to ice IIRC
10:33:31  <Flygon> o snap
10:33:33  <Supercheese> errr Flygons*
10:33:48  <Supercheese> or if pokeys even use plurals
10:33:58  <Supercheese> might be non-count nouns
10:34:33  <Supercheese> but yeah dragon/ground or something is very bad against ice
10:34:41  <Flygon> Flygon and Flygons are both acceptable multiples
10:34:48  <Flygon> "That's a lot of Flygon!"
10:34:57  <Flygon> "Those Flygon are crazy!"
10:35:03  <argoneus> good morning train friends
10:35:04  <Supercheese> I know Japanese has no plural form for their nouns
10:35:12  <Flygon> "I've seen a lot of Flygons in my time, but this one's the stupidest"
10:35:35  <Supercheese> but most things get localized with their own English names
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10:46:52  <argoneus> Supercheese: they kinda do
10:47:01  <argoneus> they just add -tachi or something after it
10:47:08  <argoneus> just like adding -s
10:47:13  <Supercheese> for pronouns sure, but not for general nouns eh
10:47:35  <argoneus> I don't really speak jap so you're probably right
10:47:35  <argoneus> :<
10:52:06  <Supercheese> Well, neither do I, but I like reading about other languages' features that are very different from English
10:52:20  <Supercheese> like German and its prefix conjugations
10:53:09  <Supercheese> I had only ever encountered suffix conjugations in English, Spanish, and Latin, so it was very different
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10:57:37  <Supercheese> even though the prefixing seems limited to the past participle
11:00:57  <Ketsuban> I've generally understood -tachi as being more akin to "and co" than "-s".
11:01:30  <Ketsuban> Aside from certain special cases (e.g. wareware "we", from ware "I") Japanese genuinely has no plurals.
11:03:49  <Ketsuban> If you like foreign grammatical structures you might find the use of count words in Japanese and Chinese interesting - it's something we have in English (head of cattle, slices of bread) but they use it much more (it's more or less obligatory, and they can get quite specialised, e.g. there's a count word for aircraft).
11:04:47  <Supercheese> with no grammatical number, it would indeed seem necessary
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11:09:35  <sark> hey guys
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11:18:36  <andythenorth> comes, goes
11:18:40  <andythenorth> quite the pattern
11:31:17  <Alberth> andy and albert do it too, we just wait a little longer :)
11:33:04  <andythenorth> agh
11:33:08  <andythenorth> articulated trucks and TE :P
11:38:40  <andythenorth> to get proper value for TE, I need to move some % of capacity to the lead unit
11:38:42  <andythenorth> boring :P
11:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause>  <andythenorth> comes, goes <-- you are certainly a master of that skill...
11:47:51  <andythenorth> I talk more in between
11:48:37  <andythenorth> so articulated RVs, the unladen weight is all on lead unit
11:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you are also master of monologues
11:48:42  <andythenorth> but the cargo weight is applied per vehicle?
11:48:54  * andythenorth might have to read RV physics
11:49:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's all combined in the head unit
11:49:28  <andythenorth> I thought so
11:49:32  <andythenorth> my code thinks so
11:49:38  <andythenorth> TE calculation doesn’t concur
11:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure the code is a terrible mess :p
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11:53:11  <andythenorth> purchase menu disagrees with vehicle in game
11:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> purchase menu is tricky with articulated parts
11:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> because callbacks cannot be run for the articulated parts
11:55:23  <Eddi|zuHause> since they don't exist
11:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it just extrapolates by (number of vehicles)*properties
11:58:19  <frosch123> that is not true
11:58:53  <frosch123> the callbacks are run for all articulated parts
11:59:12  <frosch123> just the callback cannot check the position in the chain
11:59:41  <frosch123> you cannot check other vehicle ids and stuff
12:00:20  <andythenorth> according to spec, weight is on the lead unit for RVs
12:00:25  <andythenorth> and trailing parts should be 0
12:00:31  <frosch123> yes
12:03:25  <andythenorth> hmm Road Hog does bad
12:03:28  <andythenorth> trailing parts are not 0
12:03:32  <andythenorth> happens to work ok
12:03:40  * andythenorth should fix that
12:03:53  <frosch123> currently ottd does not care about the weight of trailing parts
12:04:12  <frosch123> the spec says it should be 0, in case ottd 3.0 adds support for them having weight
12:04:35  <frosch123> and so that behaviour does not change
12:04:38  * andythenorth is going to fix that anyway
12:04:42  <andythenorth> because confusing
12:10:40  <Milek7> local v = GSTownList ();
12:10:40  <Milek7> while (!v.IsEnd ())
12:10:40  <Milek7>   GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (v.GetValue (v.Next ())));
12:10:46  <Milek7> why this not work?
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12:14:37  <Alberth> why do you "v.GetValue" if "v.Next" already gives the next item?
12:14:44  <frosch123> use "foreach (town in v) {  GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (town)); }" or "for (local town = v.Begin(); !v.IsEnd(); v = v.Next()) { ... }"
12:15:15  <frosch123> in your case "v" is a list, not an iterator
12:15:52  <frosch123> also, you skip the first element, and access the one element past the end
12:16:28  <frosch123> "for (local town = v.Begin(); !town.IsEnd(); town = town.Next()) { ... }" <- mistyped the second example, this is better
12:18:48  <frosch123> no, ah, this is confusing
12:21:18  <Milek7> local v = GSTownList (); foreach (town in v) {  GSLog.Info (GSTown.GetName (town)); }
12:21:23  <Milek7> this prints one name in loop
12:21:24  <frosch123> <- anyway, two example for other scripts
12:24:00  <_johannes> how likely is it that the bit width of StationID (2 bytes) or CargoID (1 byte) will change in the future?
12:24:28  <Milek7> ok, this with for (local it = indtypes.Begin(); !indtypes.IsEnd(); it = indtypes.Next()) works
12:27:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: how does the flour mill work?
12:27:30  <frosch123> the text says: 3t per 8t man supplies, 5t per 8t maize/cassava
12:27:41  <frosch123> but it also says production steps up of man supplies are delivered
12:28:17  <andythenorth> it combines mnsp with any other delivered cargo
12:28:25  <andythenorth> bit weird, but never thought of a better solution
12:28:37  <andythenorth> there are multiple industries using the same mechanic
12:29:30  <frosch123> so, do man supplies result in production on their own?
12:29:43  <andythenorth> yes
12:29:48  <frosch123> does the 5t per 8t change when man supplies are delivered?
12:31:28  <andythenorth> yes
12:31:36  <andythenorth> 3t + 5t = 8t
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12:32:12  <andythenorth> most secondaries just sum the ratios for the inputs
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12:32:44  <andythenorth> but for some, the ratio would then exceed 8 if summed
12:33:58  <frosch123> <- uhm, so result  1 or result 2?
12:34:36  <andythenorth> result 2
12:34:49  <frosch123> ok :)
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12:41:06  <andythenorth> grr
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12:45:04  * andythenorth must deep copy
12:45:23  <andythenorth> or maybe just copy
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12:46:14  <andythenorth> I have an object (represents a vehicle), I need to copy it to insert it multiple times into a list, with different props
12:46:19  <andythenorth> copy is probably ok?
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12:48:17  <andythenorth> meh it’s all a mess :|
12:48:30  <sark> hey guys
12:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: very unlikely
12:50:41  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: thanks
12:52:24  <sark> How are you guys doing ?
12:58:23  <Alberth> lacking coffee
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13:01:12  <Alberth> o/
13:01:20  <Wolf01> o/
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13:12:37  <andythenorth> sometimes, to do a greater good
13:12:41  <andythenorth> a small evil is necessary
13:12:48  <thecurryguy_> Hello People
13:12:53  <thecurryguy_> hey andy
13:12:58  <V453000> big evil is not a bad thing either
13:13:02  <V453000> what did you do andythenorth ?
13:13:23  <thecurryguy_> hey V453
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13:13:47  <V453000> sup
13:13:50  <V453000> XD
13:14:16  <thecurryguy_> wot
13:14:28  <thecurryguy_> damn
13:14:48  <thecurryguy_> nm I just joined the forums
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13:15:01  <andythenorth> “# semi-trucks need some capacity moved to lead unit to gain sufficient TE
this automagically does that"
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13:17:11  <andythenorth> evil
13:18:11  <_johannes> does someone think that "railnet" is a good name for the railway network exporter? is it clear enough?
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13:19:42  <thecurryguy> woops chrome crashed
13:21:02  <Alberth> _johannes: ever plan to extend to roads or shipping lines?
13:21:11  <Alberth> or air thingies?
13:21:27  <thecurryguy> hey alberth
13:21:43  <_johannes> Alberth: Good question. I wonder if it's still overviewable if you add bus nets to each station...
13:21:51  <Alberth> hi hi  thecurryguy
13:21:53  <_johannes> for plains, it might make more sense...
13:22:09  <thecurryguy> I have a query
13:22:19  <thecurryguy> can you guys help me out a bit
13:22:30  <Alberth> thecurryguy: the usual tactic is to just dump the qeustion :)
13:23:06  <thecurryguy> I read the chat rules sorry won't happen again :)
13:23:20  <thecurryguy> well which are the must have grfs ?
13:23:22  <Alberth> np, many new users do that :)
13:23:31  <Alberth> haha :)
13:23:32  <_johannes> Alberth: any better idea to get other things like plains into the name? just calling it "net" doesn't make it more clear than "graph", I think
13:23:47  <Alberth> "planes" then
13:23:59  <Alberth> vehicle-nets  ?
13:24:07  <_johannes> is a plane a vehicle? oO
13:24:19  <Alberth> aircraft then :)
13:24:24  <thecurryguy> I already have the Japanese net set
13:24:25  <_johannes> it can only "drive" on an airport
13:24:38  <Alberth> thecurryguy: well, what kind of game do you play?
13:24:40  <thecurryguy> wrong it can only park on an airport
13:24:43  <_johannes> yes, but aircraft-net makes it strange for trains :P
13:24:52  <thecurryguy> openttd
13:25:02  <Alberth> there is no such thing as universal must-have newgrfs
13:25:12  <Alberth> everybody plays openttd :p
13:25:20  <Alberth> but some focus on transport
13:25:22  <thecurryguy> but still something that every one should have
13:25:41  <Alberth> others on making nice pictures or mimicing real-life stations
13:26:05  <Alberth> some want to make big complicated junctions
13:26:18  <Alberth> or be very competitive
13:26:23  <thecurryguy> well I am more of a creator you can say
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13:27:11  <thecurryguy> Hey George
13:27:38  <Alberth>  thecurryguy  <-- that your kind of things ?
13:28:02  <Alberth> a whole forum filled with them :)
13:28:07  <thecurryguy> Damn yes
13:28:12  <V453000> when I see this kind of shit, my beain is committing suicide
13:28:16  <V453000> brain*
13:29:06  <Alberth> thecurryguy: you want newobject newgrfs then, the forum there has lists, and zillion of pictures for drooling at
13:31:17  <V453000> true beauty:
13:32:02  <thecurryguy> Damn *_*
13:32:02  <andythenorth> all kinds of wrong :P
13:33:57  <V453000> I find it hard to identify what kind of wrong actually andythenorth  :P
13:33:58  <Alberth> I hope you don't have to jump trains to go to work V  :)   looks like a bad place for a HQ
13:34:28  <LordAro> Alberth: you think V walks anywhere? he has helicopters
13:34:32  <LordAro> o/
13:34:54  <Alberth> hmm, of course, why didn't I think of that :p
13:34:58  <Alberth> hi hi LordAro
13:35:20  <thecurryguy> Alberth do you host ?
13:35:32  <frosch123> LordAro: i doubt he uses a helicopeter, he rather rides a yeti
13:35:40  <Alberth> thecurryguy:  ?
13:35:44  <LordAro> frosch123: ah, of course
13:36:06  <LordAro> yetis can easily jump the tracks
13:36:37  <andythenorth> correct approach to junctions :P
13:36:56  <thecurryguy> Alberth I mean multiplayer match or something like that
13:36:57  <thecurryguy> ?
13:37:09  <andythenorth> hey look, some of those signals are wrong way roung
13:37:09  <V453000> gg
13:37:15  <andythenorth> that won’t help
13:37:29  <Alberth> thecurryguy:  no
13:41:52  <LordAro> "
13:41:53  <LordAro> Your username or IP address has been blocked. "
13:41:55  <LordAro> huh
13:42:00  <LordAro> (on the wiki)
13:42:39  <LordAro> frosch123: undo block id #5 please? :)
13:43:51  <Flygon> andythenorth: Clearly this is better :3
13:44:08  <frosch123> LordAro: not possible, it does those things automatically
13:44:13  <frosch123> they expire after some hours
13:44:22  <LordAro> "an expiry time of indefinite"
13:44:32  <V453000> can someone ban Flygon please?
13:44:36  <LordAro> was put in place a month ago
13:44:52  <Flygon> Wait, why? O_o
13:45:02  <Wolf01> unrealistic spam
13:45:05  <Wolf01> :D
13:45:12  <LordAro> :D
13:45:12  <Flygon> Oh c'maaarn
13:45:17  <frosch123> LordAro: basically we ban users on the wiki, the wiki then randomly decides to ban the internal ip of the webgateway
13:45:20  <Flygon> You know whyyyy I posted that in reply to his :D
13:45:41  <V453000> I find it offensive
13:45:53  <Flygon> I think it's NSFW :D
13:46:10  <LordAro> frosch123: odd
13:46:23  <LordAro> wonder how many other people have my IP address
13:46:32  <Wolf01> I have too many games, I don't know which one could entertain me today :|
13:46:35  <Flygon> I'd rather build a stack interchange
13:46:42  <Alberth> Flygon: lots of space for such a low quantity of trains
13:46:50  <frosch123> LordAro: it's not your ip adress :p
13:46:52  <Flygon> But pre-1940s, a non-weaving cloverleaf has less hills to climb for low-TE equipment
13:47:13  <frosch123> LordAro: it's the ip of's own webgateway
13:47:16  <Flygon> Also, OpenTTD makes building a FAST stack interchange a nightmare
13:47:24  <frosch123> thus it blocks random users for random hours or something
13:48:09  <LordAro> frosch123: that's... odd
13:48:23  <Alberth> can't have users actually using the wiki, obviously
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13:49:47  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- it works :)
13:49:58  <frosch123> i am not sure about the default values
13:50:11  <frosch123> i don't like the original ones, so i changed them to my liking :p
13:50:32  <andythenorth> outrageous
13:50:54  <Flygon> Noting that I also play for aesthetics
13:50:55  <andythenorth> do you know which ones you changed?
13:51:01  <andythenorth> and are you going to push a commit?
13:52:48  <frosch123> i reduced the effect of enhanced to +40% instead of +100%
13:53:18  <frosch123> i increased the requirement for gung ho from 400% to 1000%, and reduced the effect from +300% to +260%
13:54:04  <frosch123> the gameplay effect is, that you can easily get enhanced on all industries
13:54:11  <andythenorth> but not gung ho
13:54:13  <frosch123> but gung ho only for very few
13:54:17  <andythenorth> gung ho isn’t fun
13:54:40  <frosch123> in my game i put all industries to enhanced using railmotors
13:54:40  <andythenorth> push it, I can test it in my current game?
13:54:56  <frosch123> and dumped all remaining supplies into one industry to reach gung ho
13:54:56  <andythenorth> it’s all cbs iirc so I can reload newgrfs
13:55:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: clearly you weren’t using cdist? :P
13:55:20  <frosch123> yep :p
13:55:47  <frosch123> i rather miss factorio style conditional orders, than cdist
13:56:42  <andythenorth> ? o_O
13:57:11  <frosch123> stuff like "only go to station if more than 200t are waiting"
13:57:29  <frosch123> would allow me to distribute low amounts of supplies continuously
13:57:41  <V453000> how about having more levels than just 3?
13:57:41  <frosch123> but remove any remaining stuff
13:57:52  <frosch123> currently i do the latter my using non full load orders with big tranis
13:58:09  <frosch123> V453000: makes no sense
13:58:19  <V453000> why not? :D
13:58:22  <frosch123> you get more output by spreading cargo
13:58:57  <frosch123> gung ho is only consolation prize
13:59:04  <frosch123> if you have nowhere to spread to anymore
13:59:05  <V453000> what do you mean?
13:59:28  <frosch123> the goal of "enhanced" is to deliver some supplies to everyone
13:59:51  <frosch123> the point of "gung ho" is only so you can do something if you have "enhanced" everywhere, but still leftover supplies
14:00:07  <frosch123> it makes no sense to boost some industries to "gung ho", but leave others at "normal"
14:00:23  <Ketsuban> andythenorth: by the way, thank you for making Iron Horse, Road Hog and SQUID. I like your aesthetic choices and your balance of verisimilitude and gameplay. :) Will you be doing a plane set?
14:00:45  <V453000> yes but what if you had normal 1, normal 1+20%, normal 1 +40%, ... ?, normal 1 +100% = gung ho
14:00:56  <V453000> way less "ok now I have this"
14:01:29  <andythenorth> Ketsuban: nah, pikka has done AV9, planes are solved :)
14:01:34  <andythenorth> I use AV9 in every game
14:02:11  <andythenorth> V453000: for that I would just do a totally alternative mechanic
14:02:15  <andythenorth> like ‘level up’ or so, more linear
14:02:26  <Ketsuban> Heh. Yeah, I use av9 too - it seemed like the most appropriate complement. Just wondered if you had any plans for your own set of planes, to ensure balance against your other sets.
14:02:29  <andythenorth> enhanced / gung ho is so simple, no thinking required
14:02:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: pull
14:02:54  <V453000> well it would probably just be closer and closer to how yeti behaves, so probably just leave it :)
14:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like there are too many conversations here simultaneously
14:03:07  <V453000> I just think that 3 levels feel super basic
14:03:48  <frosch123> V453000: i think levels are more interesting than a continuous curve
14:04:02  <V453000> sure but 3?
14:04:05  <frosch123> if you add more levels, it becomes a curve
14:04:26  <V453000> well sure if you do add too many
14:05:13  <frosch123> andythenorth: you may have to check the grf parameters in your game
14:05:26  <frosch123> i am not sure whether they get the default values, or are set to zero
14:05:32  * andythenorth will check
14:12:04  <andythenorth> nothing is gung-ho any more :D
14:15:20  <andythenorth> that unwanted industry window text is annoying eh?
14:15:25  <andythenorth> ‘cargo waiting to be processed'
14:23:15  <frosch123> i don't think it's a game stopper :p
14:24:52  <andythenorth> been there long enough :P
14:25:00  <andythenorth> I’ve ignored it enough times :P
14:26:06  <andythenorth> frosch123: unsupplied industries are claiming ‘gung ho’? o_O
14:27:40  <frosch123> in existing game? or in new game?
14:28:05  <frosch123> also which parameters? if the requirement drops to zero, then all are gung-ho :p
14:29:13  <andythenorth> in new game
14:29:25  <andythenorth> hmm
14:29:30  <andythenorth> maybe I restart openttd
14:29:37  <andythenorth> action 14 can be highly cached
14:31:23  <andythenorth> looks better now
14:32:11  <frosch123> ok :)
14:32:15  <frosch123> bbl, it's sunny outside
14:39:50  <Milek7> GSStationList::GSStationList
14:39:59  <Milek7> when no company is selected it will return all stations or none?
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14:58:41  <andythenorth> hmm
14:58:51  <andythenorth> Road Hog probably good enough for 0.1.0
14:58:59  <andythenorth> but shopping and chores
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15:25:17  <Milek7> tiles with town roads have 'local authority' value
15:25:41  <Milek7> and if player place station on this tile, it will still have 'local authority' value
15:26:41  <Milek7> but, if station is placed on road tile created during game (ie. not map generation, but town growth), then 'local authority' value sets to 'none'
15:26:50  <Milek7> it is bug?
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15:45:15  <_johannes> I have a question about implicit trains
15:45:48  <_johannes> right now, if a trains goes from A to B without explicitly mentioning that it shold drive nonstop, then implicit stations can be added
15:46:22  <_johannes> however, now, I have an express train that goes from A to B *nonstop* ... would it be possible to add the stations as waypoints?
15:46:54  <_johannes> would it even make sense, as express trains could take another route from A to B every time?
15:48:43  <_johannes> I ask because right now, the graph exporter has no clue what route express trains take, so it draws strait lines through the map... it looks bad...
15:49:04  <Milek7> maybe you want order "Go non-stop via"?
15:49:53  <_johannes> Milek7: usually not, if an express train leaves 30 stations out I don't want to add them as "nonstop via" by hand
15:51:02  <Milek7> i think it is not possible without patching game
15:51:49  <_johannes> would it make sense to patch it?
15:54:34  <Alberth> I don't think it makes sense, as your graph is for passengers getting on and of the train, which doesn't really work if it drives by at 100km//h
15:54:42  <Alberth> *off
15:55:39  <Alberth> also, trains avoid platforms if they can, so it would fail in the general case
15:56:23  <_johannes> Alberth: Currently, it's looking ugly in my graph because express trains draw lines through the desert...
15:56:50  <_johannes> It makes the who railway net looking more confusing imo
15:57:06  <Alberth> I can see that
15:57:36  <Alberth> but if it 'visits' stations wouldn't that give incorrect information?
15:57:44  <_johannes> I mean bypassing
15:57:50  <_johannes>
15:58:18  <_johannes> e.g. next to Stuttgart, there are many stations that are being bypassed sometimes
15:58:33  <_johannes> Plochingen, Vaihingen etc.
15:59:12  <Alberth> 600KB for a few lines and circles :p
15:59:40  <_johannes> Deutsche Bahn :D
15:59:44  <Alberth> yeah, I can see the value too
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16:00:10  <Alberth> nah, just stupid software :p
16:00:12  <_johannes> or could I just run the pathfinding algorithm from the game to find out the paths?
16:00:46  <_johannes> is this easy?
16:01:29  <Alberth> tbh  go via non-step orders would make the most sense to me, as you explicitly list the stations you drive by
16:01:52  <Alberth> as Milek7 suggested
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16:02:40  <_johannes> Alberth: imagine you have 5 stations with 10 trains, each passing them all by
16:02:43  <Alberth> otherwise it's just random,   shortest direction doesn't need to be the correct one
16:03:33  <_johannes> Now, if you hard coded all nonstop-vias, and sooner decide to make a hightspeed way bypassing all five, you will have to tell all express trains about this...
16:03:41  <Milek7> TownID ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority(TileIndex tile)
16:03:42  <_johannes> It's a lot of ingame work :-/
16:03:47  <Milek7> Town *town = ::ClosestTownFromTile(tile, _settings_game.economy.dist_local_authority);
16:04:05  <Milek7> why this isn't accounting town growth?
16:04:28  <Milek7> but takes distance from settings?
16:04:44  <Alberth> you know about cloned orders?  _johannes
16:05:17  <_johannes> Alberth: yes, but that 10 trains might have different start and finish points
16:05:48  <_johannes> Alberth: I don't like the idea restricting express trains to a path... it's not flexible
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16:06:10  <_johannes> also, imagine if there's a traffic jam on your route, trains will still be force to take the via-stations you inserted...
16:06:20  <Alberth> for people using time tables, it's probably required anyway
16:06:49  <Alberth> so you don't mind if your chart is telling lies?
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16:07:39  <_johannes> it should make sense... if 90% of your trains go A->C->B, would'nt it be strange to draw the line as A->D->B ?
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16:10:01  <Alberth> run a path finder then? you seem to have already decided
16:10:55  <_johannes> Alberth: either that, or asking for a patch that implicit nonstop stations are added into the order list
16:11:25  <Milek7> so, only accurate way to check within which town authority station is, is iterating over each town and checking IsWithinTownInfluence?
16:11:55  <Alberth> I am not even sure that concept exists
16:12:11  <Alberth> it's just track that the path finder is forced to follow
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16:13:55  <Alberth> and there is no game play reason for adding these stations if you could
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16:14:15  <Alberth> it just add to the overhead without benefit for normal game play
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16:14:44  <_johannes> Yes, agreed...
16:15:09  <_johannes> Maybe I'm just having fun with the pathfinder now..
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16:15:52  <Alberth> it has sufficient layers of templates for fun :p
16:17:29  <_johannes> :)
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16:21:43  <drac_boy> hi
16:22:20  <drac_boy> did find a few triplex steam setups from some books so far...still got a lot more to look up tho :p
16:22:52  <drac_boy> still looking for something to do with the SAR condensing gears but thats perhaps another topic tho heh
16:23:11  <frosch123> wrong channel? :p
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16:27:16  <_johannes> if a train is in a station, and both station exits lead to the next order... I think it chooses the exit with the shorter route?
16:27:41  * _johannes tries that out
16:28:03  <Rubidium> if you replace "shorter route" with "least perceived costs", then yes
16:28:52  <Rubidium> where there is some cost for turning around, signals, corners, and loads of other things
16:29:12  <_johannes> wow I just saw that it takes the longer route...
16:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause> given that trning around is even enabled
16:29:28  <Alberth> positions of other trains count too
16:29:34  <_johannes> hmm let's make the turnaround more attractive :D
16:29:50  <Alberth> sharp corners are bad
16:29:57  * drac_boy pokes frosch wondering why there are steam vehicles in grfs? ;)
16:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause> going through signals backwards is a rather big penalty
16:30:33  <drac_boy> alberth the kind that looks like a V turn? :)
16:30:38  <Alberth> drac_boy: I am as astonished as you are
16:30:47  <_johannes> ok the other route must be long enough, then the train turns around
16:39:24  <_johannes> I thought trains turn around in stations via CMD_REVERSE_TRAIN_DIRECTION , but this seems only be used for depots...
16:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause> that's for when you click the reverse button in the train gui
16:40:09  <_johannes> can someone pls check where in the code a train makes the decision in which direction the current station needs to be exited?
16:40:22  <_johannes> oh, then it's not the command?
16:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> commands are only for user interactions
16:40:42  <Eddi|zuHause> or, mostly, at least
16:41:00  <Eddi|zuHause> things that happen during train movement are rooted in TrainController
16:41:00  <drac_boy> hm heres a thought for anyone who'll like to try draw a different kind of bus that'll use up a rail id instead
16:41:33  <drac_boy> (the buffers makes me wonder if its meant to be able to couple to rail wagons which probably a player may want to try do?)
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16:43:35  <Milek7>
16:45:19  <drac_boy> and anyway..have to go make some lunch now sorry :p
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16:46:53  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: in TrainController, it indeed calls ChooseTrainTrack() for path finding, however, it gives enterdir as a parameter
16:47:22  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: leaving station has a special case somewhere that looks both directions
16:47:47  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: is this special check in the pathfinder, or outside?
16:47:56  <Eddi|zuHause> outside
16:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so it'll call the pathfinder twice.
16:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> once with the current direction, and once with the reversed direction
16:49:26  <_johannes> hmm it's only called once inside TrainController... is TrainController called twice then?
16:50:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd look for OT_LEAVING, or the setting that controls reversing in stations
16:51:00  <_johannes> any idea how this setting could be named in the code?
16:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> grep settings.txt for "reverse"?
16:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> settings.ini
16:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be a difficulty setting
16:54:15  <_johannes> difficulty.line_reverse_mode ?
16:54:33  <Milek7> yes
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16:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> so, check where that is used
17:01:23  <_johannes> ah, ChooseTrainTrack calls DoTrainPathfind twice
17:01:32  <_johannes> with opposite directions
17:01:35  <_johannes> that's probably it
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17:04:06  <_johannes> but the second call to DoTrainPathfind is only done if the waiting position is not safe?
17:04:17  <_johannes> I don't understand it
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17:05:40  <_johannes> I have an example map where the waiting position is safe (afaik), and the train yet turns around
17:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably misreading it
17:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that is about reserving a path INTO the station
17:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> if the platform does not end with a signal, it needs to continue reserving, even though it already arrived at the destination
17:09:02  <_johannes> ok, no, that's not what we need :)
17:09:17  <Milek7> train_cmd.cpp:static bool CheckReverseTrain(const Train *v)
17:10:55  <_johannes> Milek7: I found that, too, but it does only check if a train *can* be reversed, not if it makes sense to reverse it?
17:11:39  <_johannes> oh! indeed! that calls the pathfinder again..
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17:20:09  <Wolf01> "Remove Mods from Saves/ Add Mods to Saves", so, for 'every game with modding' I find this in the forums, I think the problem is really difficult to understand
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17:39:34  <thecurryguy> hey guya
17:39:37  <thecurryguy> guys*
17:47:25  <andythenorth> what’s to stop me putting something evil in a newgrf makefile?
17:47:32  <andythenorth> like recursive rm or something
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17:47:59  <andythenorth> presumably none of you read the incoming commits when you pull?
17:50:15  <frosch123> we trust in you stepping into your own trap before anyone else would pull
17:56:44  <Milek7> hm, how many ticks game scripts can take?
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18:20:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: things like that do happen occasionally
18:21:27  <Eddi|zuHause> like misplaced spaces turning "rm -rf /path/to/blah" into "rm -rf / path/to/blah"
18:37:18  <Milek7> GSStationList_CargoPlanned
18:37:23  <Milek7> what is planned cargo?
18:38:04  <frosch123> have you played with cargodist?
18:38:08  <Milek7> yes
18:38:26  <frosch123> in the station gui you can select "planned cargo"
18:38:42  <frosch123> which is what cdist expects in the future, as extrapolated from the past
18:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "planned" is some kind of average flow
18:39:44  <Milek7> ok, thanks
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18:47:45  <andythenorth> hmm
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20:21:31  <Milek7> hm
20:21:50  <Milek7> i if do in squirrel class stations = []; then it acts like static
20:22:05  <Milek7> but when stations = null; and stations = []; in constructor it works fine
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20:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> wo what are you asking?
20:55:50  <Milek7> nothign
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21:12:09  <Milek7> GSStationList_CargoPlannedByVia also includes final destinations?
21:24:41  <andythenorth> but is it just malware?
21:24:43  <andythenorth> :P
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21:33:26  <frosch123> what's next?
21:33:33  <frosch123> eints sortable tables?
21:33:56  <Eddi|zuHause> 1.6.0-beta?
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21:40:40  * andythenorth is too busy making tinfoil hats
21:40:43  <andythenorth> can’t make anything else
21:40:49  <andythenorth> computing is dangerous
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