Log for #openttd on 7th February 2016:
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00:42:01  <Wolf01> 'night
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03:51:20  <Oussama> hello
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11:09:56  <Milek7> station can influence rating of many towns, or only one?
11:11:10  <Alberth> only one, I think
11:21:57  <Milek7> hm, GSStation.IsWithinTownInfluence can return true for two towns
11:22:56  <Alberth> :O
11:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7: the station doesn't even need to be near the town it's affecting
11:23:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you can get very far away with stationwalking
11:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but as long as the original name stays the same, the affected town stays the same
11:25:48  <Milek7> where is the code checking affecting stations?
11:26:14  <Milek7> it use cache.squared_town_zone_radius[0]  or something else?
11:27:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the town is only calculated on initial station construction
11:27:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and then stored in the station
11:29:10  <Milek7> static void UpdateTownRating(Town *t)
11:29:15  <Milek7> if (DistanceSquare(st->xy, t->xy) <= t->cache.squared_town_zone_radius[0]) {
11:29:45  <Milek7> it checks distance
11:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> then it's even weirder
11:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but still "t" will be the associated town stored in the station
11:32:16  <Eddi|zuHause> this check then will filter out stations that are too far away
11:32:43  <Milek7> t is current town
11:32:50  <Milek7> and it checks for FOR_ALL_STATIONS(st) {
11:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think those are enough fragments to decide what this code is doing
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11:34:23  <Milek7> it's simple
11:34:47  <Milek7> iterating over all stations, compares distance with t->cache.squared_town_zone_radius[0] and adjusts rating
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11:58:11  <Milek7> value set by GSTown.SetGrowthRate can be overriden by game?
11:59:21  <_dp_> not rly
12:00:29  <_dp_> Milek7, what are you trying to do btw? raising some interesting questions lately)
12:01:18  <Milek7> i'm writing another city growth controlling script
12:01:44  <_dp_> aren't there enough already?)
12:01:49  <Milek7> no :)
12:04:15  <_dp_> I consedered continuing The_Dude's script or making my own when starting CityMania, but then looked at how GS works and gave up on doing anything with it xD
12:04:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so, who stole my replacement battery?
12:05:28  <_dp_> little green battery eater?
12:05:47  <Eddi|zuHause> ah there it is
12:10:16  <Alberth> no battery eater attached?
12:23:02  <_johannes> does anyone know whether any of the pathfinders consider traffic?
12:23:33  <_johannes> e.g. if there are two routes from A to B that are equally good, does the train take the route where less other trains might block it?
12:23:40  <Eddi|zuHause> none of the pathfinders will check for presence of a vehicle
12:23:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but the train pathfinder will consider red signals and path reservations
12:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> for the first 10(-ish) signals along the path
12:24:47  <frosch123> and the road path finder will account for vehicles currently loading in drive-through stops
12:25:26  <_johannes> hmm I wondered if one could get the graph of via-stations by just running the pathfinder around the current map, but if there are currently red signals, that would not work?
12:26:10  <_johannes> maybe I'll have to order *all* trains into depot and then run the pathfinder? :)
12:26:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you might need to check how to flip the mode to "don't check signals anymore"
12:26:44  <_johannes> ah...
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13:15:55  <Wolf01> o/
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13:28:48  <Alberth> o/
13:29:25  <V453000> yo humiez
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14:22:52  <andythenorth> o/
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14:36:45  <Alberth> #openttd.devzone  is a better channel for that George
14:37:26  <Alberth> admins of devzone should be there :)
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15:24:58  <andythenorth> o/
15:25:04  <Alberth> o/
15:26:17  * andythenorth has been busy
15:27:14  <Alberth> lots of pixels and code :)
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15:35:23  <andythenorth> nothing so fun
15:35:41  <andythenorth> did an audit of how well hardened my OS is
15:35:42  <Alberth> :(
15:35:59  <Alberth> and it's not?
15:36:37  <andythenorth> it was adequate
15:37:10  <andythenorth> I deleted a lot of unused apps and their support files
15:37:27  <andythenorth> and removed the Flash plugin and Unity plugins completely, instead of disabling them
15:37:45  <Alberth> that saves space at least :)
15:39:31  <andythenorth> I didn’t have sshd running, nor any sharing services
15:40:03  <andythenorth> none of the known OS X malware present
15:40:18  <andythenorth> and anything that’s really evil, I’d never be able to detect
15:40:43  <andythenorth> so eh
15:41:50  <Alberth> everything looks fine
15:42:22  <andythenorth> the thing that I want a tinfoil hat for is keystroke loggers
15:42:29  <andythenorth> for some reason, I have an irrational fear of them
15:43:33  <Alberth> put some tape over your camera :)
15:43:57  <Alberth> how often do you type passwords?
15:43:58  <andythenorth> I am literally doing that
15:44:15  <Alberth> it's quite sensible, imho
15:44:33  <Alberth> if you use ssh, there are very few passwords that you need
15:45:07  <Alberth> I don't think keystroke loggers are much used; it's too much work finding out which keystrokes are a password
15:45:24  <andythenorth> I type admin passwords on my system all day long, everything interesting requires authenticating
15:45:51  <Alberth> unless they specifically target you, in which case, you have a bigger problem already
15:46:16  <andythenorth> 'they'
15:46:17  <andythenorth> :)
15:46:41  <Alberth> maybe emigrate to the moon or so :p
15:47:14  <andythenorth> that would pose a problem
15:47:26  <andythenorth> because then the SLA couldn’t be met
15:50:00  * andythenorth must now to pixels :)
15:50:31  <Alberth> good idea
15:50:41  <Alberth> what are you fixing or adding?
15:50:43  <frosch123> what's your reasoning for openttd being necessary on your system?
15:58:10  <Alberth> testing pixels?
16:20:39  <andythenorth> it’s not necessary
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16:28:27  <andythenorth> do any of you keep OpenTTD virtualised?
16:28:56  <frosch123> i keep eints virtualised
16:29:23  <andythenorth> because you don’t trust the authors?
16:29:55  <frosch123> because it runs a webserver, sshd and other stuff, and i have port-forwarding from outside to it, so i can sometimes show people stuff :)
16:30:36  <andythenorth> fair
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16:34:04  * andythenorth considers virtualised OpenTTD
16:35:06  <andythenorth> ironically, the *only* identified piece of malware on my system was a windows .exe alongside Crossover (Wine)
16:36:02  <andythenorth> Crossover was installed only to test the windows version of OpenTTD :P
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16:51:28  <Milek7> cargodist should be used with freight?
16:52:10  <Alberth> depends on how you play
16:52:25  <Milek7> people at my server hate it
16:52:46  <Alberth> I use it
16:53:02  <Alberth> but then again, I don't do city building or pax transport
16:53:21  <andythenorth> .me uses it
16:53:22  <Alberth> but I also know people that disable it
16:54:20  <Alberth> you don't want symmetric mode for cargo, it's not useful mostly
16:54:39  <Alberth> there are few exceptions, like mail and values in temperate iirc
16:54:57  <Alberth> I never use symmetric mode, it feels like cheating :p
16:55:35  <frosch123> i also play without cdist
16:55:44  <frosch123> it manages something automatically, which i want to manage myself
16:56:50  <frosch123> cdist is kind of its own game goal
16:57:00  <frosch123> so it conflicts with any other goal which you may have
16:57:18  <andythenorth> do you feel like it sets goals?
16:57:28  <andythenorth> I let go of the idea that it chooses any destination
16:57:35  <andythenorth> now I have learned to love cdist
16:57:42  <andythenorth> ‘love’ is a strong word :)
16:57:46  <andythenorth> maybe ‘like'
16:57:56  <frosch123> to me a goal is usually something inhomogeneous
16:57:57  <Alberth> stockholm syndrome :p
16:58:11  <frosch123> like "some high value somewhere"
16:58:25  <frosch123> cdist distributes evenly, so it works against that
16:58:36  <frosch123> like with firs supplies
16:58:40  <Alberth> only if you let it
16:58:47  <frosch123> it works to distribute supplies evenly
16:58:54  <frosch123> but you cannot focus delivery to some location
17:00:09  <frosch123> Alberth: yes, cdest would be even worse :p
17:00:21  <frosch123> if there would be cdest, there would only be a single game mode
17:00:30  <Alberth> indeed
17:00:37  <frosch123> at least you can cheat cdist a bit
17:02:13  <andythenorth> by using multiple pickup stations, I seem to get the results I want
17:02:17  <Milek7> some images from polish forum:
17:02:31  <Milek7>
17:02:40  <andythenorth> those tankers are nice
17:02:54  <Milek7> they have some error in settings or what?
17:04:55  <andythenorth> bye
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17:05:46  <frosch123> Milek7: no, cdist sets the goal, then you have to provide the necessary transport capacity
17:06:28  <frosch123> when playing without cdist, you decide where stuff goes, which essentially means stuff is distributed according to the transport capacity which you provide
17:06:55  <frosch123> when playing with cdist, noone cares about your capacity. it is expected that you change your capacities to match
17:07:41  <frosch123> if you have lots of cargo waiting somewhere when playing with cdist, it just means you are not fulfulling the goal
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17:08:18  <frosch123> if that is not your king of goal, you should disable cdist
17:08:28  <frosch123> if it is your kind of goal, you should play better :p
17:08:57  <Alberth> :D
17:12:18  <Milek7> so if there lots of cargo waiting cdist dosen't distribute it evenly?
17:13:26  <frosch123> if people want to drive from krakow to warsaw, and all trains are full, they do not suddenly decide to drive to poznan instead
17:13:41  <frosch123> they will just wait, and complain about the bad train service
17:13:49  <frosch123> or leave the station and take the car
17:14:02  <Alberth> cdist mostly starts using other routes to the destination
17:14:11  <Alberth> or additional routes even
17:15:20  <frosch123> yes, other routes, but not other destinations :)
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17:17:50  <Eddi|zuHause> cdist never distributes evenly. it has a bias towards certain distances
17:18:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you can adjust that bias in the settings
17:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have your passenger network totally overloaded, you can make them take shorter distances, which will usually make it easier to transport everybody
17:19:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but this makes cargodist very ill-suited for distribution of cargos, where you have a single or very few sources, like FIRS supplies
17:22:52  <Milek7> if two companies ordered cargo, and train company haven't sufficent capacity, they would propably try to deliver what they can evenly, not all capacity to one company and nothing to second
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17:35:05  <frosch123> giving how unpopular it is for companies to compete for source industires, i don't think anyone bothered to make cdist affect the station rating or pickup distribution
17:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist tried a few methods of affecting station rating
17:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure which one ended up being included
17:38:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i think "reachable destinations" was dropped, but "cargo waiting at intermediate stations" was kept
17:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it's certainly not optimal
17:53:22  <Wolf01> bye
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20:41:38  <Supercheese> and now the entire country goes into a stupor for the Stupor Bowl
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21:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause> can't be worse than carneval...
21:15:58  <TrueBrain> you could live in a country where Trump is running for president
21:16:01  <TrueBrain> *trolololol*
21:16:11  <Alberth> :D
21:17:44  <TrueBrain> SpComb: your bot lost his name a while ago ;)
21:18:27  <TrueBrain> Guest659 .. that seems weeks ago ;)
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21:22:24  <Supercheese> for the entire time I've been able to vote, every presidential candidate has been terrible, so there's nothing really new
21:26:35  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow i'm surrounded by cats all of a sudden
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22:48:24  <SpComb> TrueBrain: in disguise
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22:58:44  <Flygon> Suppercheese: Clearly the solution for you
22:58:52  <Flygon> Is to be able to vote for multiple people at once
22:58:59  <Flygon> In order from Most Preferable to Least Preferable
23:00:12  <Flygon> But USA is scared of such representative democratic values ?
23:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: how does that help if all candidates suck equally?
23:02:18  <Supercheese> yeah my vote would be "these are all morons"
23:02:27  <Flygon> You go in preference from Least Sucky to Most Sucky
23:02:33  <Supercheese> "preference"
23:02:44  <Flygon> I do advocate a "None of the Above" tickbox tho
23:03:13  <Supercheese> I'd imagine every election would end with that result though...
23:03:26  <Supercheese> "Wellp, nobody won... again"
23:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there was this story about a guy (in canada?) who changed his name to "Above Znonofthe" so at the bottom of the ballot it said "Znonofthe, Above"
23:03:42  <Flygon> Well, the idea is
23:03:48  <Flygon> Is that if enough recall elections are called
23:03:58  <Flygon> Some electable candidates are bound to be forced up
23:04:10  <Flygon> If a large majority of seats initially kept voting no confidence
23:04:14  <Flygon> It is a huge initial shock
23:04:29  <Flygon> But after the parties/independants get themselves sorted, and become ELECTABLE
23:04:39  <Supercheese> sounds good in theory
23:04:48  <Supercheese> I have my doubts as to its practicality
23:04:53  <Flygon> The idea is that future elections will be more stable due to the politicans being forced to actually listen to their people
23:04:55  <Flygon> Oh, certainly
23:04:59  <Flygon> I share those doubts
23:05:03  <Supercheese> but hey, pretty much anything would be better than the morons currently in
23:05:07  <Flygon> But it'd be nice if it could be trialled
23:05:20  <Supercheese> on every ticket, you get a list of Moron #1, Moron #2...
23:05:28  <Flygon> But the Politicians would roar hard against it. They want a free lifetime job >_>
23:06:13  <Flygon> ON my ticket, I get Labor, Liberals, Greens, Christian Party, Family First, Sex Party (yes, THAT IS A REAL PARTY), Independants, Free Beer for College Students, ect...
23:06:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i don't quite understand how this is supposed to work...
23:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> like "keep this seat empty if everybody votes 'no'?"
23:07:08  <Flygon> It forces a recall election
23:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and what does that do?
23:07:52  <Flygon> You hit the same scenario under standard electoral systems sometimes if the numbers are simply far too close to call
23:08:45  <Flygon> Well, everyone's dragged back to the polling booths (with candidates either dropping out, or new ones contesting the seat), to try and resolve the stalled election
23:08:56  <Flygon> Everyone in the seat
23:08:57  <Flygon> Not the nation
23:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and how does that solve any problems?
23:09:33  <Flygon> Allows the public to express what wankers pollies can be :B
23:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just like every other country that has runoff elections
23:09:57  <Flygon> Oh, wait
23:10:02  <Flygon> Are you discussing preferential voting?
23:10:14  <Flygon> Or the "All these Politicians are Wankers" checkbox?
23:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that last one
23:10:33  <Flygon> Right
23:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> although, the entire point of preferential voting is to avoid runoff elections. why it's now a benefit to reintroduce them is beyond me...
23:11:59  <Flygon> Well, if someone is ticking the box because they think none of the politicians are even worth consideration, even with a preferential system. And in the incredible unlikelyhood that over 50% of voters would agree with that viewpoint. Clearly all the candidates presented are either incredibly incompetent, or the public incredibly unsatisfied with the operation of the Government as a whole up to that point.
23:12:20  <Flygon> Both of which can reveal even deeper problems endemic in the Government's operation up to that point
23:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well, in this country there is a new wave of outrage every time that the voter turnout is on a record low, but still nothing ever changes
23:13:14  <Flygon> Incidentally, I'm astounded the UK runs on a "First Past the Post system". Esp. given how many different parties their parliament has.
23:13:29  <Flygon> Eddi: No mandatory voting?
23:13:41  <Flygon> In Australia, you're legally required to vote. Otherwise you're fined.
23:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> mandatory voting is evil(tm)
23:14:00  <Flygon> Obviously, this doesn't stop people from drawing penises onto their ballot then submitting those.
23:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it's what communists did in east germany, it must be bad.
23:14:16  <Flygon> But the idea is once they're in, they'll feel like voting anyway
23:14:27  <Flygon> I... can see how you guys feel a bit burned from history x:
23:14:52  <Flygon> iirc, here, it was just introduced because... I forgot why. It was around 1917 when it was legislated
23:14:59  <Flygon> Voter turnout must've been abysmal or something
23:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> in federal elections it's usually around 70%, in some state elections it drops to 50%
23:16:31  <Flygon> Yeah, here, it's over 90% for both
23:16:38  <Flygon> I do note, the fine here is between  and 
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23:16:53  <Flygon> So... some people are so lazy they just pay the fine, because the fine is so absurdly low
23:17:07  <Flygon> They set the values in the 60s or 70s
23:17:14  <Eddi|zuHause> in EU elections it's not great either
23:17:19  <Flygon> With inflation, the fines should be around 0-800
23:18:53  <Flygon> I'm just surprised how undemocratic a lot of European electoral systems can be
23:19:00  <Flygon> I expected them all to be very similar to Australia
23:19:07  <Flygon> ie. mandatory voting, preferences
23:19:11  <Flygon> But a large chunk aren't
23:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody has preferential voting...
23:19:43  <Flygon> How do you run a democracy without it?...
23:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> half of the countries has proportional voting, and the other half has runoff elections
23:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause> so if in the first round of voting, nobody has 50%, then two weeks later an election will be held between the two candidates with the most votes
23:20:39  <Flygon> Ahh, yes
23:20:44  <Flygon> Proportional Voting...
23:20:57  <Flygon> That... sorta kinda exists here for certain elections
23:21:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and no two voting systems are ever the same
23:21:09  <Flygon> They're a massive controversy due to how manipulable they have become
23:21:36  <Flygon> It's really not easy to get into the nitty gritty without explaining how the electoral system works here in-depth x:
23:22:11  <Flygon> But... yeah
23:22:14  <Flygon> <Eddi|zuHause> so if in the first round of voting, nobody has 50%, then two weeks later an election will be held between the two candidates with the most votes
23:22:21  <Flygon> That's not really very democratic...
23:22:27  <Flygon> It's a statistics failure :(
23:22:48  <Flygon> Given the strong likelyhood that, in such a scenario, somone coming in 3rd or 4th place, with preferences, could actually come out #1
23:22:57  <Flygon> As has occoured localy
23:23:21  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly
23:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but as most countries are used to two-party systems, that's rarely an issue
23:23:44  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you'll never know...
23:23:53  <Flygon> Just because you're used to it, doesn't mean it's good for you :(
23:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but look at the elections in france... there's a regional spike in a 3rd (extreme right wing) party, and in the runoff election everybody is like "oh fuck, we need to keep these guys out"
23:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause> which result in some crazy left-right broad coalitions for voting for the other candidate
23:28:48  <Flygon> It's pretty difficult for the extreme Right to get a foothold here
23:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's much easier in proportional systems
23:30:01  <Flygon> Strangely, the effect I HAVE noticed
23:30:14  <Flygon> Is that the Left can get an easier foothold
23:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably going to swap if you have a refugee crisis :p
23:32:20  <Flygon> Uuuuhm...
23:32:23  <Flygon> Oh man...
23:32:29  <Flygon> Australian Politics and Refugees
23:32:35  <Flygon> I really REALLY don't want to get into that
23:32:54  <Flygon> Mainly because the UN's declared that we've been violating human rights with our detention centres
23:32:59  <Flygon> The child rape stuff doesn't help
23:33:25  <Flygon> And yet we have European parties claiming this's the greatest thing since sliced bread
23:33:30  * Flygon puts his head in his hands
23:33:33  <Flygon> I'm fucking ashamed.
23:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but you haven't had a million refugees in a year
23:33:51  <Flygon> That's the thing
23:34:02  <Flygon> Given our geography, and the demographics coming through to here
23:34:12  <Flygon> We can more than reliably handle any incoming flow
23:34:43  <Flygon> Particulary since that, bar going by boat (which tends to deter all but the most incredibly desperate), the only way to come in is by Airplane.
23:35:08  <Flygon> But the major parties here have latched onto the issue in an attempt to grab votes from Sydneysiders
23:35:16  <Flygon> And I do mean Sydneysiders specifically
23:35:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there'll always be the "but WE were here FIRST" and the "but THEY are all CRIMINALS" camps
23:35:29  <Flygon> Technically the Aboriginals were here first.
23:35:40  <Eddi|zuHause> sure. but they don't count.
23:35:49  <Flygon> But I can see why the "but THEY are all CRIMINALS" camp would ignore that fact xP
23:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> but look at the US, with all the white people being afraid of mexican immigrants
23:36:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same exact two arguments
23:37:14  <Flygon> Ehh
23:37:21  <Flygon> Humans are scared of what's foriegn =/
23:37:41  * Flygon rubs forehead
23:37:51  <Flygon> The Sydneysiders would freak out if they went on my trainline
23:38:08  <Flygon> I'm on the only portion of it that ISN'T predominantly Black, Asian, Middle-Eastern, or all of the above xP
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23:48:03  <Derya> hi
23:48:23  <Flygon> Yooo!
23:48:49  <Derya> yep
23:48:51  <Derya> how r u Flygon
23:49:05  <Flygon> Ehh
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23:49:15  <Flygon> I'm not privy on the current operations of Russia
23:49:27  <Flygon> Well, fug
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23:50:15  <Derya> someone kicked me
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