Log for #openttd on 13th February 2016:
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07:35:29  <andythenorth> is cats
07:35:45  <Eddi|zuHause> miau
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07:44:05  <andythenorth> vehicle factory is regrettable
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07:58:49  <andythenorth> irl, vehicle factories are 1) very big 2) very bland
07:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so?
08:00:59  <andythenorth> big is hard to place
08:01:04  <andythenorth> bland is
bland :P
08:01:12  <andythenorth>
08:01:18  * andythenorth needs a better solution
08:01:51  <andythenorth>
08:02:45  <andythenorth> I can probably cheat scale somewhat
08:03:18  <Supercheese> Draw cutaway view! Assembly lines, robotic arms, forklifts! :P
08:06:38  <andythenorth> V did that in YETI :)
08:07:11  <Supercheese> Ah true
08:07:29  <andythenorth> truck plant is more plausible
08:07:40  <andythenorth> but it’s all just brick cuboids :P
08:08:03  <andythenorth>
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09:00:36  <sim642> I'm looking at and but I don't see the overall format of the package described, like how's the packet type sent or what other metadata is there and how much. Can anyone help me?
09:30:07  <_johannes> "bool   reserve_paths;                    ///< always reserve paths regardless of signal type."
09:30:13  <_johannes> What does it mean to reserve a path?
09:30:28  <_johannes> Also, what is a PBS signal?
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09:36:45  <andythenorth> path based signal
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09:45:14  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: reserving a path means it is then (almost) guaranteed to be kept free from other trains
09:45:30  <_johannes> andythenorth: ah ok, then it's just a path signal?
09:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, "PBS" and "path signal" are the same thing
09:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> (mostly)
09:46:23  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: so this can happen regardless of any type of signal, it just means that the tracks is reserved for this specific train?
09:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: i don't know under which condition this flag is set
09:48:25  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: train_cmd.cpp, "do_track_reservation = true;"
09:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: not enough context
09:49:21  <Eddi|zuHause> also, why does this matter?
09:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably don't want to reserve paths
09:51:33  <_johannes> I'm just figuring out how it works
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09:52:28  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: reserving a path is a train saying "i'm coming through here, stay clear!"
09:52:32  <_johannes> for just finding out what path is the best from station a to b, I can not use Train::Tick(), because I guess this will let the train stop if other trains are blocking
09:53:05  <_johannes> but just calling the YAPF/NPF algorithms seems to be too less, I guess?
09:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that is pretty much exactly what you want
09:53:54  <_johannes> the YAPF/NPF algorithms can not do things like turning a train around, correct?
09:53:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but the appropriate wrapper function for that almost definitely already exists
09:54:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't want to turn the train around
09:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you just want to know what would happen if you turned around
09:54:40  <_johannes> exactly
09:54:47  <_johannes> the path algorithms can do this?
09:54:51  <_johannes> *path find
09:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you have to call it twice, with opposite starting directions
09:55:39  <_johannes> ok, so then I need to try to turn it around after every step the train made
09:55:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no
09:55:57  <_johannes> oh wait, a train is not allowed to regularly turn around?
09:56:06  <Eddi|zuHause> turning around can only happen at stations
09:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause> or in depots, or end of line
09:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> the pathfinder generally ignores the possibility of "end of line"
09:56:42  <_johannes> ok, the path finders will know if a route via depot is good?
09:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause> doing that correctly is tricky, because it would need to know the train length, and then go backwards the appropriate amount of steps
09:57:22  <_johannes> ok, for the "end of line" thing, one could just assume that it won't happen in reality...
09:57:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the pathfinder can handle depots, but they have a pretty large penalty
09:58:03  <_johannes> let me play a game to find that depot thing out
09:58:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the penalty by default is 5000 (ca. 50 tiles detour)
09:58:43  <michi_cc> _johannes: You probably want to check/use TryPathReserve and/or ChooseTrainTrack
10:00:49  <_johannes> michi_cc: I'd need to understand what ChooseTrainTrack actually does
10:01:10  <_johannes> but it seems unsuited, e.g. as it make the train go to depots if it needs service
10:01:35  <_johannes> or, if paths can not be reversed, ChooseTrainTrack aborts
10:01:54  <_johannes> for getting a nice graph, it should be simulated like our train is the only train on the map
10:03:42  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: independent from that, it might be tricky to get the full path out of the pathfinder routines. they are only meant to return the first choice to make, and discard the rest of the calculated path
10:04:13  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: ok, so I'd just need to iterate them?
10:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems like a huge waste of processing power
10:04:53  <_johannes> but doesn't openttd work the same ingame?
10:05:02  <_johannes> *the same way
10:05:21  <michi_cc> _johannes: Then I don't think messing around with path reservations is what you want. YAPF will have the complete path to the target internally, so you'd want to directly hook into that.
10:05:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but by the time the next choice needs to be made, the state of the network likely changed, so you cannot reuse the result anyway
10:05:49  <michi_cc> And before you ask, no, there is no ready-made function for that.
10:06:00  <_johannes> I just wanted to ask that :P
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10:41:27  <Wolf01> o/
10:55:08  <sim642> What's the logic for sending PACKET_CLIENT_ACK? I'm trying to make a bot stay connected but can't figure out when the ACK needs to be sent and with what data because packet sniffing the real client shows that it's only being done occasionally.
11:00:24  <Wolf01> ?
11:02:03  <Wolf01> also
11:04:23  <sim642> that wiki page disagrees with so many things in comparison to
11:04:37  <sim642> and when sniffing packets and trying to figure out what's going on I found that both wiki pages are outdated
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11:04:47  <sim642> the comments in the source are outdated as well
11:04:56  <sim642> I ended up having to read some of the packet creation code
11:05:20  <Wolf01> you could fix the comments and submit a patch
11:05:34  <sim642> I can't fix the comments if I have no clue what actually happens
11:05:41  <sim642> because the SendAck function has some p->Send_uint8 (my_client->token);
11:05:51  <sim642> there's no mention of a token anywhere I have seen
11:07:53  <sim642> tbh, I don't really care about how exactly the whole frame thing and commands even work
11:08:00  <sim642> but I need the ACK sending to keep my bot connected
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11:23:32  <Wolf01> meh... they changed again firefox... now push notifications let you chose "always" or "not now"... and if I want "only for this session"?
11:25:16  <sim642> Oh I just found out, some server frames send you as a token as well
11:25:25  <sim642> I guess that's what to send back
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11:27:34  <sim642> seems to stay connected too if I client ACK every 100 frames
11:31:47  <sim642> still, seems somewhat ridiculous that the only reliable source for the network protocol is the packet creation code and packet sniffing
11:38:31  <sim642> there's still parts I totally didn't figure out though
11:38:46  <Wolf01> maybe nobody knows, and you can be the one which could bring the light
11:39:13  <sim642> the people who designed and implemented it must know how it works
11:39:27  <sim642> although I understand there needn't be many people since it needs to be only done once
11:40:14  <sim642> PACKET_CLIENT_JOIN has some newGRF version uint32 being sent, I wonder where should I get one that'd allow me to connect
11:40:28  <sim642> currently I just took the one my sniffed client used
11:42:50  <Wolf01> I think you need to emulate the entire game to make it connect
11:46:08  <sim642> not really, simply by always ACKing that I'm up to date with the frame is enough to stay connected
11:46:35  <sim642> also I just ignore the map data it sends and tell the server I got it OK when it ENDs
11:47:32  <Wolf01> the problem it's not what you can ignore, it is what the server wants you to send
11:47:57  <Wolf01> like your list of grfs
11:49:27  <sim642> I should be able to just send back such that it'd be ok
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11:52:45  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: right now, I think it's cleaner to add an "is_virtual_train" parameter to TrainController() (or a similar function) instead of copying the function and smash parts out...
11:53:08  <_johannes> do you think this modficiation in the core would be acceptable?
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12:26:54  <sim642> if there's only one spectator client connected the game gets unpaused too?
12:31:25  <Milek7> sim642: why you need to connect to server with dummy client?
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12:40:07  <sim642> Milek7, for a chat bridge
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12:40:29  <Milek7> why not simply patch server?
12:41:24  <sim642> what do you mean?
12:43:28  <Milek7> patch server to do chat bridging
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12:43:41  <Milek7> propably a lot simpler than writing own client
12:44:40  <sim642> but a lot harder to get anyone running the server to do it
12:45:22  <sim642> not to mention having to implement a whole IRC client in openttd server
12:45:47  <Milek7> write to fifo somewhere
12:46:06  <Milek7> and write some script reading from it and piping into irc client
12:46:08  <sim642> makes no difference at this point since I already have it working
12:50:34  <_dp_> there is admin port for chat
12:50:54  <_dp_> and bunch of libraries that work with it
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12:52:00  <sim642> is there a single line of documentation about it?
12:52:23  <_dp_> there was somewhere...
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12:53:40  <_dp_> but don't think you need docs for admin port protocol, just library
12:54:31  <_dp_> reddit one seems decently documented
12:55:18  <_dp_> oh, no, it's just usage, not api... but whatever, who needs comments in python :p
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13:46:06  <michi_cc> sim642: <OTTD src>/docs/admin_network.txt
13:51:22  <sim642> so that's something the server admin needs to allow?
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14:19:22  <xcy> </> I would be willing to rework the website. And in addition add support for mobile devices.
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14:55:44  <Quatroking> is it possible to change the setting for station size on a running server?
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15:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: i don't think that is the right approach
15:06:09  <Milek7> Quatroking: can't be done using console?
15:06:18  <Quatroking> no idea
15:07:38  <Milek7> propably you must save game, stop server, change it, and load
15:08:07  <Quatroking> Yeah I was hoping to avoid that
15:09:53  <_dp_> usually you can change settings on running server
15:09:58  <_dp_> requires rcon though
15:10:19  <Quatroking> I have direct console access if that helps
15:11:39  <_dp_> if you mean ttd console that will do too
15:11:46  <_dp_> not linux one)
15:13:04  <Quatroking> oh I mean linux
15:13:15  <Quatroking> I got the server running right next to me
15:14:05  <_dp_> well, you need ingame console, don't see any other way
15:15:42  <Quatroking> Alright, i set up rcon
15:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause> the console where you started the server will work
15:17:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it behaves like the ingame console
15:17:36  <Quatroking> I have no idea what setting to use though
15:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you put the server in the background)
15:18:04  <Quatroking> Nah I got it open in a terminal
15:18:24  <_dp_> oh, wow, it works indeed, didn't know that
15:23:44  <Quatroking> ah, found it
15:24:07  <Quatroking> station_spread
15:24:47  <_dp_> there is a bunch of related settings actually
15:25:13  <_dp_> vehicle.max_train_length, gui.station_platlength
15:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think gui settings apply to a server
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15:27:42  <_dp_> yeah, sounds likely, but I'm not sure either
15:28:05  <_dp_> I mean it definitely applies to server, but probably not to clients))
15:28:45  <Milek7> gui settings are only revelant on client
15:28:56  <Milek7> and independent from server
15:32:13  <Quatroking> oh wow two of my trains' pathfinding bugged up completely
15:32:23  <Quatroking> they're just riding in circles now
15:47:40  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: what would be an alternative? I could copy ~ 200 lines of code into my graph exporter
15:48:00  <_johannes> this would lead to code duplication :-/
15:48:28  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: to me this smells like you have not found the right point to hook into yet.+
15:49:14  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: the problem is that TrainController and subfunctions do contain many lines of code that I need
15:50:36  <_johannes> or wait, maybe not...
15:53:43  <_johannes> hmm ok I think you're right :D
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16:24:58  <sim642> Something weird happening with my dummy client: sometimes the MAP_DATA it gets has less bytes than it claims to and will get stuck in the whole connection part
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16:50:12  <andythenorth> 32bpp FIRS is it?
16:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can also do 8bpp extra zoom
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16:51:30  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
16:51:39  <Alberth> hi hi
16:51:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or do a "limited 32bpp" where you only use the 8bpp colours plus some antialiasing
16:52:30  <andythenorth> I am waiting for someone to do a fork
16:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that way you can keep the overall style consistent
16:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you "wait" for something in an open source world, it will never happen...
16:53:08  <andythenorth> or the second option also is fine
16:56:18  <luaduck> _dp_: regarding suds, it's extremely fresh and is pretty much a clone of soap at this point in time
17:00:15  <Alberth> imho, there are lots of people more interested than you in 32bpp, andy
17:04:46  <andythenorth> almost everyone is more interested than me :)
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17:26:32  <andythenorth> quak
17:26:35  <andythenorth> isn’t it
17:26:43  <frosch123> moin
17:28:39  <_johannes> VehicleEnterTile -> should this be called if I just want to get the graph ?
17:29:42  <_johannes> the comment says: "/* Call the landscape function and tell it that the vehicle entered the tile */"
17:30:06  <_johannes> sounds like it's just for graphics?
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17:51:44  <_johannes> now I've already copied 300 lines from train_cmd to the graph exporter...
17:52:08  <_johannes> it's a lot of code duplication and I'm not even 100 percent sure if I smashed out anything important...
17:53:21  <_johannes> TrainCheckIfLineEnds, TrainCanLeaveTile, TrainApproachingLineEnd
17:53:37  <_johannes> I'm not sure if this was a good idea...
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18:08:26  <michi_cc> _johannes: I still think that you should look at YAPF only. All the stuff in train_cmd.cpp deals with "physically" moving the train forward, which is exactly what you don't want if your goal is an idealised path disregarding other trains.
18:10:35  <michi_cc> _johannes: YAPF on the other hand will already have a complete node graph back from the destination to the origin in memory at the end of a run, which is just waiting to be plucked. Do YAPF from order to order (with some fudging to deal with non-deterministic conditional orders) and be done with it.
18:11:41  <_johannes> michi_cc: yes, I don't want the "physical" stuff, but there are many things like setting train's bits, handling for 90 degree curves, CheckCompatibleRail, checking if line ends, handling depots....
18:17:16  <michi_cc> But what for? YAPF (or more exactly the track follower) takes care of all that, except checking if a train needs service. YAPF is guaranteed to find a *working* path , which implies all the checks about compatibility and such.
18:18:25  <michi_cc> Using YAPF will fail for stuff like openttdcoopy self-regulating networks, but then you can't represent them as a normal graph anyway.
18:20:48  <_johannes> michi_cc: Ok, I'll look inside and see if it can be used...
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18:27:05  <andythenorth> bah
18:27:10  <andythenorth> no good trainsets :(
18:28:01  <Alberth> that includes iron horse?  :O
18:28:32  <andythenorth> played the Brit roster so many times
18:28:44  <andythenorth> I need one for arctic and one for tropic
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18:29:37  <andythenorth> :)
18:30:27  <Alberth> british tropical?  lots of old steam engines? :)
18:31:27  <andythenorth> it nearly works tbh
18:31:35  <andythenorth> brit in tropical is ok
18:32:07  <Alberth> arctic..  big power for all that wood?
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18:33:55  <andythenorth> norway, finland, electrics and such
18:35:07  <Alberth> I'd expect steam and diesel rather than electric, with all the snow and frost
18:35:30  * andythenorth should probably research it :)
18:35:32  <andythenorth> Dan had some ideas
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18:44:08  <andythenorth> stupid vehicle plant :)
18:44:45  <Alberth> it's on the nomination to get retired before I could play with it?  :)
18:44:53  <andythenorth> nah
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18:45:08  <andythenorth> but if I make it realistic, it’s the most boring industry ever, visually
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18:45:28  <andythenorth> unless I draw one huge building, like the stockyard
18:45:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27508 trunk/src/lang/german.txt (2016-02-13 19:45:36 +0100 )
18:45:45  <Alberth> draw a car-like building? :p
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> german: 1 change by mini1025
18:45:53  <andythenorth> ha
18:46:01  <andythenorth> irl, it needs to be 3 of these
18:46:06  <andythenorth> and some truck/car parking
18:46:18  <andythenorth> but I don’t like those giant one-piece sprites
18:47:43  <Alberth> imho you have enough box-like industries
18:48:55  <andythenorth> too many
18:49:08  <andythenorth> all either brick, or company colour
18:49:14  <Alberth> not many huge multi-level boxes though, but it just becomes massive then
18:49:15  <andythenorth> one or two white or grey
18:49:31  <Alberth> hmm, no triangle roofs, have you?
18:49:44  <andythenorth> only a couple
18:50:00  <andythenorth> one building here
18:50:07  <argoneus> is there going to be a cash shop in ottd
18:50:13  <andythenorth> reused as hardware store, and in CHIPS for station buildings
18:50:24  <andythenorth> considering doing pointy triangle roofs
18:51:05  <Alberth> ah, textile mill has
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18:51:53  <andythenorth> so it does :)
18:51:55  * andythenorth forgets
18:52:21  <andythenorth> there is a car plant here
18:53:19  <andythenorth> also lifeblood’s
18:53:36  <Alberth> I like the L-shape (or U-shape)
18:54:15  * andythenorth should use Oz’s resort to replace FIRS hotel :D
18:54:17  <Alberth> looks very boxy
18:54:58  <Alberth> I have seen such a resort in ECS?
18:55:15  <andythenorth> likely
18:55:20  * andythenorth is running out of industry shapes :)
18:57:07  <Alberth> shapes with different number of levels at different parts of the factory?
18:59:44  <andythenorth> that worked for tyre plant
18:59:49  * andythenorth experimenting
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19:26:33  <blackzone> Someone to play open ttd Multi-player?
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19:34:25  <blackzone> who wants to play online?
19:37:28  <Supercheese> Reddit does:
19:37:40  <Supercheese> (or server2, or server3)
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20:04:34  <andythenorth> Alberth: or so?
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20:05:20  <andythenorth> I think I would add the varying roof heights idea
20:05:33  <Alberth> add some open space at the parking lot?
20:05:57  <Alberth> get rid of the weird blue line between the two buildings at the right?
20:06:23  <Alberth> it looks like they are connect, make the roof gun through as well :)
20:06:40  <andythenorth> agreed
20:06:45  <andythenorth> it’s somewhat inspired by
20:06:46  <Alberth> some different colours of cars could be nice too
20:07:04  <andythenorth> multi-colored cars? :o
20:07:09  <andythenorth> shameful idea :)
20:07:41  <Alberth> rotate the cars 90 degrees?  1 tile of cars between buildings looks weird now, imho
20:07:57  <Alberth> just asif they are stuck between the buildings :)
20:08:24  <andythenorth> I need another 3 or 4 tiles
20:08:26  <Alberth> if you're Henry ford, yes, but then the cars would all be black :p
20:08:34  * andythenorth did consider black cars :)
20:08:52  <Alberth> when was mr Ford?
20:10:30  <andythenorth> 1920s or so
20:10:44  <Alberth> 1908 to 1920
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20:19:01  <andythenorth> Alberth: (it’s a bit uniform and silly)
20:19:04  <andythenorth> fixed the roof
20:19:45  <andythenorth> hmm
20:19:49  <Alberth> previous layout was nicer imho
20:19:55  <andythenorth> there is a problem with the spacing on the roof triangles also
20:21:51  <Alberth> at the tile border, you mean?
20:22:44  <Alberth> there is more wrong, it seems
20:25:43  <andythenorth> it was the shading
20:25:46  <andythenorth> perception problem
20:25:48  * andythenorth fixed it
20:25:58  <andythenorth> now I need more buildings
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21:16:42  <drac_boy> hi
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21:21:05  <V453000> tbh andythenorth, that is the ugliest industry I have yet seen from you
21:21:53  <V453000> 1. the two building types do not fit together at all imo, one looks like a mud hut, the other ones more like an administrative building stuff
21:22:05  <V453000> 2. no empty space anywhere, just huge mess
21:22:20  * drac_boy wonders if this is firs?
21:22:41  <V453000> 3. ultra regular grid-like layout = 2x1 white, 2x2 brown, 3x1 cars, repeat layout x2
21:23:19  <V453000> the building sprites alone are nice, but the combination looks almost as a broken grf to me
21:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> those are supposed to be cars?
21:26:33  <andythenorth> V453000: agreed
21:27:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you need to redraw thode from scratch
21:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> *those
21:27:24  <V453000> yeah the cars are another story, those even have bad sprites "P
21:27:25  <V453000> :P
21:28:17  <andythenorth> those are the same trucks used in about 30% of FIRS, and every CHIPS station
21:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> also,you miss a white line on the tile borders
21:28:34  <andythenorth> it’s a HEQS sprite
21:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they don't work in large quanities like this
21:30:34  <Quatroking> So I have two X2001 monorail trains, of which one goes slower than the other
21:30:51  <Quatroking> and I can't figure out why
21:31:26  <Quatroking>
21:31:31  <Eddi|zuHause> loaded? curves? tunnels?
21:31:33  <andythenorth> V453000: you don’t think I should make all FIRS industries look this?
21:31:53  <Rubidium> wagon speed limits?
21:31:56  <andythenorth> I was just looking at original TTD sprites, some are just like this, very regular and repetitive
21:32:01  <drac_boy> quatroking, wagon can't run as fast? :)
21:32:01  <Quatroking> oooohhhh
21:32:05  <drac_boy> heh go figure ^
21:32:08  <Quatroking> I totally forgot about that
21:32:09  <Quatroking> thanks
21:32:11  <Rubidium> cargo weight multiplier
21:32:26  <drac_boy> tbh why using tropical rail wagons with non-rail locomotive? just wondering
21:32:45  <Quatroking> I liked the look of em
21:32:48  <Quatroking> :D
21:33:13  <Quatroking> mass wagon replacement isn't a thing, is it?
21:33:18  <andythenorth> yes it is
21:33:35  <Quatroking> is it in the same menu as regular replacement?
21:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
21:35:19  <Quatroking> ah, found it
21:35:37  <V453000> yeah andythenorth I think it is just the fact that there is so many. As one they work, but not in arrays
21:35:46  <V453000> perhaps use various trucks? Profit
21:35:52  <andythenorth> dunno
21:35:56  <drac_boy> quatroking just one little tip tho, don't use it too much with eg ukrs/canset/etc at certain times because theres still no definitive way to "remove" such wagon
21:35:58  <andythenorth> the whole vehicle factory thing bores me
21:36:20  <V453000> I think vehicle factory should be quite modern looking
21:36:21  <drac_boy> other than to eg group all mineral trains in one list category and autoreplace per group (so brakevan>wagon)
21:36:25  <andythenorth> I could just leave it as
21:36:27  <V453000> like aluminium plant or something
21:36:36  <drac_boy> sorry if my wording isn't good but hope you know what I mean
21:36:40  <Quatroking> drac_boy, this is my current newgrf list:
21:36:43  <V453000> haha
21:36:47  <V453000> yes that one at least looks nice andythenorth "P
21:36:49  <V453000> :P
21:36:53  <Quatroking> Don't really have too much train newgrf's as far as I'm aware of
21:37:15  <V453000> andythenorth: how about making the big depots have only 1 floor (cut bottom), and wider?
21:37:20  <V453000> with more doors?
21:37:23  <andythenorth> maybe
21:37:28  <andythenorth> I dunno
21:37:31  <V453000> I think it would look very 1900ish
21:38:17  <andythenorth> there are 2 problems
21:38:17  <V453000> also, this demonstrates very nicely how uniform browny building industry looks nice when consistent
21:38:47  <andythenorth> 1) industry will look very bland if it is uniform colours and shapes
21:38:56  <V453000> not necessarily
21:38:56  <andythenorth> 2) industry will look a mess if it is different colours and shapes
21:39:08  <V453000> colours doesnt mean shape isnt interesting
21:39:15  <andythenorth> vehicle plants are the most uninteresting buildings ever
21:40:26  <V453000> well the ENSP/FMSP factory you just linked looks great
21:40:39  <V453000> just a few adjustments and it will be very much like a vehicle plant
21:41:03  <andythenorth> too similar to this
21:41:14  <andythenorth> although that Machine Shop is totally stupid
21:41:17  <andythenorth> in gameplay
21:41:27  <andythenorth> but I can’t mess with Full FIRS, it’s too complicated
21:41:51  <V453000> isnt the vehicle factory one of machine shop layouts?
21:41:51  <drac_boy> btw quatroking whats a quatro?
21:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need to worry about industries looking similar if they don't appear in the same economy
21:42:21  <V453000> yeah also that
21:42:24  <Quatroking> hell if I know, ask 10-year-old-me
21:42:33  <V453000> of course, variety helps, but you dont have to have it everywhere
21:42:36  <drac_boy> heh?? :)
21:43:01  <Quatroking> I used this nick when I was 10 to sign up on because it sounded cool
21:43:08  <Quatroking> Been using it ever since
21:45:09  <Quatroking> I do like Pizza Quattro though
21:45:18  <drac_boy> hmm you recall around which year that would be re ?
21:45:34  <Quatroking> 2003/2004
21:45:53  <Quatroking> They still had the Galidor Quest and Bionicle game up
21:45:58  <Quatroking> Bricklot too
21:46:32  <drac_boy> ah, I used to be on lego till they started removing a lot of the good classic games :-s
21:46:55  <drac_boy> the pirate themed gold find game was a funny one (done in plain html too)
21:48:28  <Quatroking> backlot*
21:48:29  <andythenorth> V453000: so what are you saying, leave the vehicle factory as is?
21:48:37  <V453000> ok
21:48:51  <V453000> I would try to make wider, 1-floor variation but k
21:48:56  <Quatroking> actually still has it:
21:49:03  <Quatroking> good old shockwave player
21:49:20  <Quatroking> probably the first 3d game I played
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21:51:26  <drac_boy> quatroking try this then :)
21:51:37  <drac_boy> not sure if it still 100% works .. never tried it much for a very long time
21:51:42  <Quatroking> Oh I remember that one
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21:52:27  <Quatroking> there's also this puzzle platformer
21:52:40  <Quatroking> Junkbot
21:53:47  <andythenorth> V453000: meh :)
21:53:57  <andythenorth> partly I am just bored of boxes after drawing this and Copper Refinery
21:54:36  <V453000> that looks nice
21:54:39  <andythenorth> yeah
21:54:48  <andythenorth> also loads of wtf pipes everywher
21:54:52  <V453000> yes
21:55:13  <V453000> tbh I dont think the ball-like tanks fit to it, something more cyllindrical would be better me thinks
21:55:27  <andythenorth> other thing I have to draw is Pyrite Smelter, which is basically chemical works + metal furnace combined
21:55:33  <andythenorth> loads of potential
21:55:42  <V453000> :D
21:55:44  <andythenorth> pipes, conveyors, molten metal, smoke of two colours
21:55:45  <andythenorth> :P
21:55:52  <drac_boy> quatroking also similar spelling but did you know what a Quadro was? :)
21:56:02  <drac_boy> they still exist in fact
21:56:07  <andythenorth> did my best with tyre plant, but meh to boxes
21:56:08  <andythenorth>
21:56:27  <Quatroking> Only quadro I know are those ugly scooters and nvidia's workstation cards
21:56:34  <andythenorth> vehicle plant could at least have input cargos shown I guess
21:56:40  <andythenorth> tyres, crates, metal, etc
21:56:44  <andythenorth> it has a lot of potential inputs
21:57:33  <V453000> the varying roof details would be nicer but this is fine
21:57:42  <drac_boy> quatroking heh funny thing re that .. I actually deal with pny cards once in a while :) (lowend models usually mind you)
21:58:49  <Quatroking> hey is it possible to upgrade bridges to newer types?
21:58:54  <andythenorth> I will go back to tyre plant and do better roofs
21:59:02  <Quatroking> right now I'd removing and building new ones over and over
21:59:21  <Quatroking> oh hell i could've just clicked on the bridge
21:59:42  <andythenorth> it took me 8 years to learn that :P
22:00:32  <V453000> =D
22:00:34  <V453000> gnight
22:00:47  <andythenorth> bye V
22:01:02  <drac_boy> quatroking heh it didn't take me long to figure that out in the first few games I played with ttdxp (rather than plain ttdx)
22:01:11  <drac_boy> but to our own ways ofc
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22:03:07  <drac_boy> you mind pms quatroking? just wondering
22:03:16  <Quatroking> I prefer not to
22:03:29  <Quatroking> I didn't discover vehicle replacing up until a year ago btw
22:04:55  <drac_boy> what kind of signals do you usually go with?
22:05:29  <Quatroking> path
22:13:10  <drac_boy> for me: restricted, except for still sometimes using presignal instead on more basic (aka a catchall) junctions
22:18:13  <drac_boy> oh and just in case you're not sure what it is, feel free to look at this if you want to
22:20:09  <andythenorth> bye
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22:35:27  <drac_boy> quatroking and which of which country you from? canada here
22:35:34  <Quatroking> The Netherlands
22:37:10  <drac_boy> ahhhh.. NS .. I actually like some of their trains :)
22:37:52  <Quatroking> Well yeah, they're made by Bombardier
22:38:35  <drac_boy> especially Mat'64
22:38:46  <drac_boy> a few of them still running last time I think I checked
22:39:11  <Quatroking> I'm wrong there, not all of them are made by Bombardier
22:39:19  <Quatroking> the ICM is by Talbot
22:39:44  <Quatroking> the ICM is nice but getting old
22:39:58  <Quatroking> also they got rid of the gangways :(
22:40:49  <drac_boy> quatroking btw the ICM sorta had a "cousin" here sec...
22:41:27  <drac_boy> have fun with that (even yellow+blue palette too)
22:41:59  <drac_boy> and btw the gangway idea on that one was only used just once in trial test but in public service they never bothered MUing at all
22:42:46  <Quatroking> So I just built a basic highway and nearly doubled my yearly road vehicle from ,600,000 to ,800,000
22:42:47  <drac_boy> (it was easier (and fuel-cheaper) to just add more intermediate cars after all hence why the last trainsets grew to like 11 or 12 length)
22:43:14  <Quatroking> should've played around with this a lot earlier
22:43:33  <Quatroking> road vehicle income*
22:43:33  <drac_boy> oh and quatroking its not you .. the thick black thing sticking out of the raised roof is for the hot exhausts coming from the turbine gensets located below :)
22:43:55  <Quatroking> That train looks pretty neat
22:44:36  <drac_boy> quatroking yeah it was a pretty much reliable one later on too .. sadly politics killed it off (VIA was basically a gov-"owned" company)
22:45:06  <drac_boy> 99.8+/-% reliability even with snow issues at times and no I'm not making that up
22:46:05  <drac_boy> the funny thing is that the supposed replacement which was a diesel-electric locomotive called LRC (short for Light Rapid Comfort) had many glitches and later was always running without any tilting capacity too
22:46:38  <Quatroking> They recently upgraded some of the NS DD-AR trains
22:46:39  <Quatroking>
22:46:46  <Quatroking> They look pretty slick
22:47:03  <drac_boy> small footnote: the turbotrain holds rail speed record in canada abit done with a special shortened trainset that had lot of turbine powers aboard if that says anything
22:49:45  <drac_boy> oh and quatroking I only found out about this in a rail book (theres no copy of the photo online sorry) but .. the turbotrain (in canada) actually got involved in quite an accident that a dome-seating photographer was lucky to be in the right place to take a photo ....
22:50:33  <drac_boy> the train smashed through a meat trailer throwing the truck around but the whole thing stayed on the rails .. and after clearing the wrecked gangway doors the train (things were different back then) simply continued at a limited 60kph to the next station
22:56:25  <drac_boy> mind you I'm probably a bit biased but I've always hated any kind of cabover or similar flat-front designs anyhow
23:01:13  <Quatroking> heh
23:01:58  <drac_boy> short sections such as on the Scania T series trucks I'm ok with tho :)
23:02:38  <Quatroking> I ride the DD-AR nearly daily, usually on the old models
23:03:06  <Quatroking> though sometimes I use the SLT
23:03:15  <Quatroking> That's the bombardier one
23:03:23  <Quatroking> it's a glorified subway
23:03:51  <Quatroking> fun fact: our subway trains are also built by bombardier :')
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23:05:21  <Quatroking> Every once in a while I also use the Brussels train which is an NMBS HLE 11 + an
23:05:22  <Quatroking> NS ICRm
23:07:20  <drac_boy> heh, anyway have to go make some supper so maybe talk to you another time ok?
23:07:46  <Quatroking> Yeah sure
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