Log for #openttd on 14th February 2016:
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00:07:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i can haz galleon?
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00:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose a galleon isn't the right ship for cleansing another pirate area, so i'm gonna trade and grow towns for a bit and maybe i can get a frigate next
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00:44:27  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, I'm using the frigate, but I have troubles with 5 enemy ships in level 30 areas...
00:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not quite that far yet
00:45:11  <Wolf01> I have 2 more ships to purchase, but I first need to level up a city
00:47:16  <Wolf01> growing a town to level 9 requires at least 25 quests/trades with that city
00:48:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's 5 trips with a galleon :p
00:48:33  <Wolf01> if you have all the stuff every time, yes
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00:50:17  <Wolf01> today I cleaned 3 pirate areas and got a "syndicate" city, the syndicate faction is the best one because it gives you all the perks of the other ones, but it's tricky to get their flag :/
00:53:29  <Wolf01>
00:58:22  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:07:43  <andythenorth> o/
07:09:26  <V453000> sup yo
07:09:28  <V453000> progrez?
07:11:18  <andythenorth> yair
07:12:54  <andythenorth>
07:13:08  <andythenorth> shading is wrong
07:13:12  <andythenorth> trying to get some shapes
07:13:18  <andythenorth> I went for modern look
07:13:53  <V453000> that is infinitely better than yesterday
07:14:23  <V453000> cars look rather bad, and I would add white elements to the CC boxes
07:14:27  <V453000> but other than that, really good
07:14:43  <andythenorth> I am glad you suggested white
07:14:50  <andythenorth> I woke up at 4am and had same thought
07:15:02  <andythenorth> also is super realisms
07:15:04  <V453000> well the cars aren't that horrible, but ... yeah :) various car models that hard? :P
07:15:06  <V453000> haha
07:15:15  <V453000> good
07:15:19  <andythenorth> I need cars, trucks, machines
07:15:39  <andythenorth> I think vehicles have to be different colours, not just CC
07:15:43  <andythenorth> which I hate :P
07:15:46  <andythenorth> I like CC
07:16:21  <andythenorth> I am going to do a white office building, but not this one
07:17:30  <V453000> I would like the top part to be a bit shorter so it doesn't go all the way to the edge
07:18:02  <andythenorth> I can do that probably
07:18:40  <V453000> yeah colourful cars would be nice, but mainly they need more contrast I think ... they look blurry compared to the other things
07:20:03  <andythenorth> I’m not short of vehicles
07:20:09  <andythenorth> I have 2 whole grfs of them :P
07:20:10  <V453000> in fact, various coloured cars would probably give it an unique look, and immediately intuitively obvious that it is a car factory
07:20:13  <V453000> yes I know
07:20:16  <V453000> USE THEM :P
07:21:52  <_johannes> andythenorth: I like it, it really fits the other industries in the game
07:22:06  <_johannes> will you also do 32 bpp versions?
07:22:41  <V453000> XD
07:22:42  <V453000> in yo face
07:23:17  <andythenorth> I have outsourced the 32bpp
07:23:28  <V453000> 32bpp or lyfe
07:23:44  <andythenorth> it is on V453000’s to-do list
07:23:48  <andythenorth> but his list is long
07:24:01  <_johannes> ok :D
07:24:01  <V453000> his list is really fucked up long
07:25:22  <andythenorth> V453000: not sure about the black vertical dividers on the end of the CC sheds
07:25:31  <andythenorth> I wanted something not used anywhere else
07:25:36  <andythenorth> but looks odd
07:26:06  <V453000> try white :)
07:26:20  <V453000> moar consistency to the industry
07:28:02  * andythenorth sorting the roof out
07:28:25  <andythenorth> shortenining the roof extension (per your drawing) is logical, but makes it disappear into the roofline at the back
07:28:30  <V453000> btw teh newborn is live
07:28:34  <andythenorth> :o
07:28:51  <andythenorth> when?
07:28:59  <V453000> 12.2. 18:33
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07:34:12  <_johannes> do we have an expert for the yapf algorithm?
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09:29:19  <andythenorth> o/
09:35:54  <Alberth> moin
09:41:42  <andythenorth> V453000: 2 storeys or 3?
09:41:43  <andythenorth>
09:42:09  <andythenorth> clue: I am planning to add more similar buildings, in white (offices) and CC (goods in, with chemical tank and stuff)
09:42:17  <andythenorth> I think the others need to be lower
09:43:43  <Alberth> 3 levels looks 3 times as impressive :)
09:44:46  <Alberth> you could do a few variations in layout with different heights
09:44:54  <andythenorth> I think the 2 level one looks better, in isolation
09:45:02  <andythenorth> but when I add other buildings, I think it will get lost
09:45:16  <Alberth> could be
09:45:25  <Alberth> 3 levels is a bit massive indeed
09:46:04  <Alberth> on the other hand, we have houses that are at least as high :)
09:46:41  <andythenorth> yes
09:50:51  <Alberth> imho it is not a bad thing if industry is really present
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09:53:51  <Alberth> hi hi TB
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09:54:43  <Alberth> andy, you have many 2 level buildings at other industries :)
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09:58:01  <andythenorth> yes
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10:15:51  <andythenorth>
10:15:59  <andythenorth> not sure I like 3 levels
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10:16:08  <andythenorth> realism, but bland
10:16:27  <andythenorth> looks like apartments :P
10:16:30  <andythenorth> V453000: ^^ ?
10:16:51  * andythenorth tries back to 2
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10:22:10  <andythenorth>
10:22:12  <andythenorth> better imho
10:22:45  <andythenorth> tall one looks like space shuttle assembly building
10:25:52  <Alberth> :)
10:26:20  <Alberth> 7 is indeed better then 6
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10:48:43  <argoneus> good morning train friends
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11:05:14  <FLHerne> argoneus: Morning
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11:36:33  <_johannes> Alberth: do you know how wrote YAPF, or who knows a lot about it?
11:36:56  * andythenorth wonders what vehicles to use at vehicle factory
11:45:59  <Alberth> _johannes: former should be derivable from the commit log
11:47:13  <Alberth> but it's likely he is long gone, or doesn't know the details any more
11:48:06  <_johannes> looks likt it was rubidium
11:49:38  <_johannes> From what I understand, the pathfinder is an A* graph algorithm, the tiles that contain tracks are the nodes, and if two neighbour tiles are connected via a track, they make an edge
11:49:47  <_johannes> do you think this is true?
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11:50:54  <Alberth> rubidium likely just committed it?  if there is a issue number, that's the real person who wrote it
11:52:06  <_johannes> issue number in the commit message?
11:52:08  <Alberth> I agree on your ideas about A*
11:52:47  <Alberth> and since the tile and track layout is used everywhere, you can use the same path finder everywhere
11:53:27  <Alberth>   there is a standard way of writing a commit message
11:53:53  <Alberth> but depending on the age of the commit, things may be different :)
11:56:46  <_johannes> :)
11:56:57  <FLHerne> 'KUDr', it seems?
11:57:10  <_johannes> what do you mean by " you can use the same path finder everywhere"
11:57:15  <FLHerne> But I don't remember ever seeing that name, so probably inactive :-/
11:58:56  <Alberth> all path finders are usable for trains, road vehicles, and ships
11:59:08  <Alberth> aircraft just fly in a straight-ish line
12:03:22  <Alberth> KUDr left at around 0.6
12:04:17  <_johannes> ok so what I need is to exactly use this algorithm, but instead of getting the next track where the train should continue, I'd like to get all stations that are on the path to the next order
12:05:03  <_johannes> I think there are two ways to do that: (1) is to copy the current track finding algorithm and make a modification which returns all stations on the path
12:05:29  <Eddi|zuHause> diving into the depth of YAPF internals is a scary thought
12:05:42  <_johannes> (2) is to just add a callback function to the algorithm, something like "onEnterTile(Tile...)"
12:06:02  <_johannes> which would, in my case, be used to check if that Tile is part of a station
12:06:13  <_johannes> for me, (2) sounds more clean
12:06:41  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: the follow track function can already distinguish station tiles
12:06:55  <Alberth> I'd compute the path, and then check it for stations
12:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: i think what you need to do is modify the return value from a scalar to a linked list or something
12:08:04  <Alberth> A* walks in all directions, only afterwards you know which path is relevant
12:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> this might need adding another layer of templates onto it
12:09:55  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: ?
12:10:01  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: returning a complete list might be a performance issue
12:10:19  <Alberth> path = ComputePath(); for tile in path: if in station: append station to list
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12:10:40  <Alberth> hoi
12:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but the pathfinder currently only returns the first choice of the path, and throws everything else away
12:11:21  <_johannes> not sure if yapf keeps the path internal, but I guess it does not, so in order to return it, we need to call malloc each time
12:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: building a linked list is certainly not more expensive than a full pathfinder run
12:12:03  <Alberth> _johannes: it must have the entire path, or you cannot decide the next tile
12:12:11  <Alberth> I'd just call it for every tile
12:12:42  <_johannes> You mean calling YAPF repeatedly?
12:12:43  <frosch123> hola
12:13:16  <Alberth> yep, you have no desire to keep the game running fluently right?
12:13:32  <_johannes> Alberth: no
12:13:44  <Alberth> so the simplest way is to just continue calling it getting a next tile, until you reached the end
12:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: the way a pathfinder like YAPF works is it recurses into every choice there is to make, and upon a successful reaching of the destination, the return path of this recursion is the path that is taken
12:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: so along this return path, you need to build your linked list
12:14:22  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: ... or call a callback function
12:14:34  <Alberth> but if you want it in one go, the path finder must have the entire path at some point, so you'd need to rescue it then
12:15:24  <Alberth> _johannes: cb function fails, as the algorithm explores all directions, so you get call at every explored point in the map, not just at the optimal path
12:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: again, the pathfinder already does all things you need, it just discards it immediately except for the last return
12:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you just need to string up these return values, to get your full path
12:16:48  <Alberth>    <-- yellow is the path, everything dark and light blue is also explored
12:17:30  <Alberth> maybe first understand how A* works?
12:17:32  <_johannes> I think Eddi|zuHause just said that the path could be recovered?
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12:18:26  <Wolf01> o/
12:18:28  <frosch123> _johannes: take a look at CYapfReserveTrack::TryReservePath
12:18:41  <frosch123> for (Node *node = m_res_node; node->m_parent != NULL; node = node->m_parent) { <- that loop iterates over the found path
12:19:21  <Alberth> hi hi W01
12:19:28  <argoneus> Alberth 1v1 me in chess
12:19:48  <Wolf01> why not 4v4?
12:19:56  <argoneus> 4v4 is imbalanced
12:20:35  <frosch123> people can get very angry in 2v2 chess games
12:21:19  <frosch123> when one team member loses the queen, and the other team member suddenly has to face two queens
12:21:55  <michi_cc> frosch123, _johannes: Almost :) It iterates starting with the chosen safe waiting point, which in turn is determined in e.g. CYapfFollowRailT::ChooseRailTrack (the if (pNode != NULL) part)
12:22:30  <argoneus> frosch123 want to play chess?
12:22:45  <Quatroking> do cities grow when one of its industries makes a massive turnover?
12:22:54  <frosch123> no, i want to write a factorio->graphviz converter
12:23:22  <frosch123> after watching the 2:30h speedrun, i think about building a different factory than usual
12:23:49  <frosch123> but don't worry, i won't try a speedrun, i won't even consider playing the same map twice
12:24:01  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, I found the construction supplies :D
12:24:17  <argoneus> frosch123: what do you want to graph?
12:24:52  <frosch123> the cargo chain, but with "amount per time" units
12:25:19  <frosch123> i want an easy graph to figure out the ratios for assembling machines
12:25:42  <frosch123> without having to divide input/output amounts by production time
12:25:53  <_johannes> frosch123: from that for loop you pasted, does YAPF simply add each direct A*-search-origin as m_parent?
12:26:28  <argoneus> frosch123: foreman?
12:26:35  <frosch123> _johannes: the resulting path is essentially a linked list (the back-links in the search tree)
12:26:44  <argoneus> there's tons of tools to do that
12:26:54  <argoneus> you tell them "I want to make 10 doodles in a minute"
12:27:01  <argoneus> and it tells you what fiddles and toodles you need to make 10 doodles per minute
12:28:04  <frosch123> i am sure i can write a custom tool myself faster than trying out several other tools which do only similar what i want
12:28:15  <frosch123> it's also more fun
12:28:21  <argoneus> they do exactly "amount per time" though
12:28:34  <argoneus> but yeah I get writing your own
12:28:37  <frosch123> and can they import factorio mods?
12:28:41  <argoneus> yes
12:28:45  <argoneus> you can check/uncheck mods
12:28:53  <argoneus> foreman scans your game files
12:29:02  <Alberth> I am more a Go person nowadays, haven't played chess in a few decades
12:29:51  <Alberth> I played checkers some time ago, and discovered that moving pieces are very scary :p
12:30:24  <argoneus> oh, that Go
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12:30:30  <argoneus> I was wondering what programming has to do with chess
12:30:44  <_johannes> michi_cc: the pNode != NULL part starts at the end of the path and then goes up the A* tree to get the whole path?
12:31:01  <frosch123> Alberth: luckily there are two dozen rulesets for checkers :p
12:31:24  <Alberth> :O  I know only one :p
12:31:53  <michi_cc> More or less yes. Nodes are tiles though, but run of tiles, which is why the called functions have their own sub-loops as well.
12:32:01  <michi_cc> s/are/aren't/ :)
12:32:34  <frosch123> Alberth: there are like 3 versions each how to move normal pieces, enhanced pieces, and how normal pieces can remove other pieces
12:32:46  <frosch123> which you can of course recombine into 27 variants
12:32:48  <Alberth> sounds likely :)
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12:33:13  <frosch123> oh, and board sizes ofc
12:33:14  <Alberth> and tactics change a lot when you change such rules
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12:33:51  <_johannes> michi_cc: "run of" tiles ? you're German, right? :D
12:34:02  <_johannes> can you please translate that
12:34:04  <frosch123> <- only some of them
12:35:18  <michi_cc> _johannes: A node covers several tiles.
12:35:44  <_johannes> oh ok...
12:37:56  <_johannes> so should I add another function into CYapfFollowRailT that walks through the A* path and lists/returns/notifies all stations ?
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12:41:37  <frosch123> argoneus: ok, i found a website. i guess i underestimated the size/activity of the factorio forums
12:41:51  <argoneus> frosch123: foreman was a bit buggy the last time I used it thugh
12:41:53  <argoneus> though*
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12:42:10  <argoneus> not sure why, but it was loading the wrong numbers for some ores/plates
12:42:17  <argoneus> but apparently those are wrong even in the game files
12:42:22  <argoneus> but somehow the game fixes them
12:42:27  <argoneus> shrug
12:42:43  <argoneus> the rest seemed just fine though
12:42:47  <frosch123> there are like dozen modifiers :p
12:43:04  <frosch123> every cargo has a production time, but also assembling machines have speeds
12:43:12  <frosch123> and funnily there is no machine with speed 1 :p
12:43:21  <frosch123> hmm, maybe the player has speed 1
12:47:02  <argoneus> oh I remember frosch123
12:47:09  <argoneus> it somehow thought the drill:furnace ratio wasn't 1:1
12:47:16  <argoneus> with electric furnaces
12:47:22  <argoneus> it thought it was 1:2
12:47:26  <argoneus> I don't know how that happened
12:47:37  <argoneus> everything else seemed correct
12:47:57  <argoneus> I made a post in the forums about this, let me see if I can find any resolution
12:49:00  <argoneus> ah, found it
12:49:09  <argoneus> frosch123:
12:49:52  <argoneus> not gamebreaking, but still, not sure how that happens
12:49:56  <argoneus> since it takes data straight out of the game
12:52:14  <Quatroking> oh wow
12:52:21  <Quatroking> I hit the vehicle limit for the first time ever
12:52:28  <argoneus> grats
12:52:41  <Quatroking> building freeways does that I guess
13:04:04  <andythenorth>
13:05:16  <Quatroking> pretty
13:05:36  <argoneus> andythenorth: that's from the original ttd files, isn't it?
13:05:47  <andythenorth> the landscape is
13:05:54  <argoneus> I mean the house
13:07:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: randomise the recolouring on each vehicle tile?
13:07:48  <andythenorth> I think so yes
13:07:55  <andythenorth> I need to try it at least
13:08:15  <andythenorth> I’m worried about finding colours that don’t clash horribly with the CC of the industry
13:08:23  <andythenorth> but white at least seems safe :P
13:18:05  <andythenorth> frosch123: 2CC industries? :P
13:18:39  <frosch123> i like the white buildings :)
13:19:46  * andythenorth is painting trucks white and silver right now
13:21:28  <frosch123> no coloured vehicles? :o
13:22:18  <andythenorth> might try some
13:22:21  <andythenorth> dunno
13:22:27  <andythenorth> yellow bulldozers? o_O
13:23:16  <frosch123> yeah, considering the other industries, there is a high demand for heqs
13:23:16  <Alberth> do they ever have a different colour? :p
13:23:41  <frosch123> yellow, white, red, orange
13:23:45  <frosch123> blue and green are rare
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13:28:42  <andythenorth> added some red vehicles
13:28:52  <andythenorth> probably need at least one more tile of different vehicles
13:29:36  <andythenorth> I _could_ make all the buildings white
13:29:45  <andythenorth> and leave the CC only for vehicles and such
13:30:16  <frosch123> i think it's nice this way
13:30:22  <frosch123> all white would be boring
13:30:32  <frosch123> but the white one in front, and the colour in the background is good
13:30:40  <andythenorth> what colour are post vans in germany, holland?
13:31:02  <frosch123> depends on the company :p
13:31:06  <andythenorth> oic :)
13:31:10  <frosch123> dhl is yellow with red stripe
13:31:29  <frosch123> ubs is brown with this insanely weird amercian car layout, which makes no sense
13:31:41  <frosch123> smaller companies have just plain white
13:32:01  <frosch123> it's usually for reselling the vehicles
13:32:18  <frosch123> like police cars used to be white with green/blue lines
13:32:33  <frosch123> but now the green/blue part is a only a sticker
13:32:39  <frosch123> and the car is silver
13:32:47  <frosch123> after one year, the sticker is removed, and the car is sold again
13:32:51  <frosch123> and silver sells well
13:41:56  <andythenorth>
13:49:27  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's much more beautiful than yesterday's :-)
13:56:10  <Alberth> looking great
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14:23:59  <andythenorth> need to do 2 more buildings, including replacing those tanks
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14:31:53  <FLHerne> Random FIRS nag - can we have more industries that fit onto slopes?
14:32:22  <FLHerne> On rough maps, it looks a bit silly when two dozen industries are crammed onto each flattish area
14:32:52  <FLHerne> Or I could just set it to generate fewer industries, o/c :P
14:41:32  <andythenorth> tried v2 FIRS?
14:41:59  <andythenorth>
14:44:42  <FLHerne> No, I don't think so, still on 1.4.4
14:44:48  * FLHerne should try that :-)
14:46:09  <Quatroking> there's a v2?
14:46:29  <Quatroking> I guess that one isn't on the in-game newgrf downloader thingy tool?
14:47:38  <frosch> it needs ottd 1.6
14:47:41  <Quatroking> I love how FIRS adds petrol stations to my freeways, by the way
14:48:58  <FLHerne> From the look of it, that still rules out anything down the side of a mountain
14:49:30  <FLHerne> Drift mines?
14:54:02  <andythenorth> want to
14:54:13  <andythenorth> not sure I can reliably find the correct shaped hillsides
14:54:15  <andythenorth> but it’s an idea
14:54:28  <andythenorth> actually it could work with foundations
14:58:57  <andythenorth> copper mine will be redrawn something like this
14:59:15  * andythenorth wonders if it can be forced on to hillsides
14:59:18  <andythenorth> tends to be tricky
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15:47:29  <V453000> andythenorth: the only problem I have is with the windows looking from behind
15:47:47  <V453000> cars look WAY great in compare to earlier
15:47:54  <V453000> white buildings are fine
15:48:20  <V453000> could benefit from some tiny details on teh roof/roof edges I think but not a big deal
15:48:40  <V453000> I would solve the "issue" by either moving the bright pixels in windows 1px lower
15:48:50  <V453000> or making the middle blue segment have 3 floors?
15:49:13  <V453000> editing windows sounds better
15:49:29  <V453000> also, I would love if each of the 3 blue building roofs were at least a little different from each other
15:49:44  <V453000> ... same for the white ones roofs
16:11:13  <andythenorth> I probably move the windows down I think
16:11:37  <andythenorth> or increase building height 1-2px
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16:40:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you could even leave it like that
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16:41:37  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe blue is not the best colour for the buildings
16:42:35  <andythenorth> none of the colours are great
16:42:50  <andythenorth> I could darken them by one shade
16:42:59  <andythenorth> perhaps not actually, I’m out of range
16:47:12  <andythenorth> I could two-tone the buildings white/CC in big horizontal stripes
16:47:16  <andythenorth> not convinced it would be good mind
16:51:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think i'd prefer the brick-brown from yesterday
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17:07:00  <Eddi|zuHause> /usr/include/c++/4.8/bits/basic_string.tcc:799:33: internal compiler error: Speicherzugriffsfehler
17:07:05  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right
17:15:49  <frosch> the latter word is german
17:19:38  <Wolf01> ahah Eddi|zuHause, I just found a legendary item :D
17:19:55  <Wolf01> a bit pricey 88k
17:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i definitely got the "legendary" achievement with my 14k item
17:24:19  <Wolf01> I'm roaming in the level 39 area, establishing a little base and sinking one ship at time it was easy
17:24:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm working my way through the level 18 areas
17:24:55  <Wolf01> found a "strange diagram" too, I think is the one for the airship
17:25:42  <Wolf01> and also, I'm playing as syndicate now
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17:37:02  <Milek7> ouch, there isn't counter for cargo transported to industry last month?
17:41:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, only production last month
17:41:31  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on industry set you may also have a stockpile
17:41:47  <frosch> <- all the information is available
17:42:09  <frosch> how else would gamescripts like nocargoal work?
17:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, i was thinking GUI
17:46:30  <Milek7> i must specify company?
17:46:41  <Milek7> i want to get data from all companies
17:47:18  <Eddi|zuHause> simply loop over all companies?
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19:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i got this skill to throw water barrels, and ever since then, i haven't seen any fire that i could extinguish...
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19:32:58  <Wolf01> eheh, sea is on fire here on level 39, I would like more water barrels :P
19:39:24  <andythenorth> chimneys, always chimneys
19:39:30  <andythenorth> no FIRS industry without a chimney
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19:46:43  <andythenorth> ho
19:46:53  <andythenorth> there are 20 different tall chimneys in FIRS :o
19:47:02  * andythenorth doesn’t like repeating them :P
19:48:23  <frosch> the smoke is the same most of the time, i guess
19:49:34  <andythenorth> mostly
19:55:02  <andythenorth> apart from roof detail, is this done?
19:55:08  * andythenorth might be losing perspective
19:55:27  <andythenorth> the little building doesn’t quite fit, but I am lacking inspiration
19:55:50  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, 1vs.3 doesn't really work :p
19:57:03  <Wolf01> I can survive 1v4.. if there isn't a captain between them
20:00:00  <andythenorth> ach see what forums say :P
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20:33:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The three identical large roofs are still identical ;-)
20:34:07  <FLHerne> Could stick some small pipework or big flue vents or something on one or two of them?
20:37:04  <andythenorth> yup
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20:46:25  <Wolf01> finally... completed the instance at level 39
21:09:13  <sim642> I've managed to code up a dummy spectator client in nodejs now that can do IRC bridging without having to connect via admin port or whatever
21:09:44  <sim642> from the category "how to spend 2 days of your time implementing a plugin which will never be used for an IRC bot which will never be used"
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21:11:11  * andythenorth must to bed
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21:18:25  <drac_boy> hi
21:18:38  <Crisco> anyone help me out - how to add CPUs to existing saves?
21:19:59  <Alberth> ?
21:20:51  <frosch> what does cpu mean?
21:20:54  <drac_boy> cpus? ... ?
21:21:01  <drac_boy> heh seem I'm not the only one confused now
21:21:05  <Crisco> computer... a competitor
21:21:12  <drac_boy> you mean AI btw crisco :)
21:21:26  <frosch> open the ai settings in the menu
21:21:33  <frosch> and increase the number of competitors
21:21:44  <frosch> within the game, not in the mainscreen
21:22:03  <Crisco> but it says I need to download AI from the internet?
21:22:14  <Crisco> Isn't there a stock AI installed on the game?
21:22:27  <frosch> no
21:22:40  <drac_boy> frosch, they stripped it out?
21:22:40  <Crisco> ah okay, can you suggest a good AI to download
21:22:58  <Alberth>
21:23:23  <frosch> drac_boy: are you eddi in disguise?
21:23:29  <frosch> did you play the game since 2009?
21:23:33  <Crisco> oh perfect
21:24:31  <drac_boy> heh frosch .. I still have no idea what you talking about .. the AI has been there ever since the game was first made .. unless like I asked, have they stripped it out recently?
21:24:49  <frosch> no, in 2009
21:25:10  <frosch> thus why i ask what "recently" means to you
21:25:54  <Rubidium> anything in the last 100ky? ;)
21:26:03  <_dp_> haha, didn't notice AI's are gone either
21:26:23  <_dp_> who needs them, AI's are stupid :p
21:26:41  <Crisco> Yeah but it gets repetitive just doing solo all the time
21:26:47  <Rubidium> _dp_: that's the whole point, some of the new ones aren't stupid
21:27:00  <_dp_> Crisco, go join some multiplayer server
21:27:00  <drac_boy> dp heh .. they may had not been good with rail routing but I never found them too absurb at all
21:27:02  <drac_boy> to our own tho
21:27:45  <Crisco> I'll give it a go
21:28:48  <FLHerne> Crisco: I'd recommend Reddit server 1 if you're new to multiplayer
21:29:19  <FLHerne> Busy, usually friendly, no newgrfs or scripts
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21:30:06  <FLHerne> Oh, and the map's just refreshed so there's loads of space to build atm :-)
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21:44:56  <drac_boy> had to check web list just out of curiousity and hm this one probably would had sound good to me if it wasn't for the current date on there
21:45:31  <peter1138> reddit's rule 3 is stupid though
21:45:43  <drac_boy> rule?
21:46:34  <_dp_> still kinda miss a purpose of ai's, it's not a competitive game per se and if not competing then what, watching their weird networks?
21:46:53  <peter1138> sure it's competitive
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21:47:17  <drac_boy> dp, your ai not building a station next to the same coal mine you're already using? :)
21:48:14  <_dp_> peter1138, hah, then what's the goal?))
21:48:32  <drac_boy> peter ah I see what you mean about the rules...tbh for a cooperative game #3 is right in place tho
21:49:35  <V453000> I don't see any purpose in AI either
21:49:37  <V453000> at all
21:49:45  <V453000> just map clogger/cpu consumer
21:49:52  <peter1138> AI is meant to be a competitor
21:49:59  <peter1138> just because it's not very good at it doesn't matter
21:50:09  <peter1138> lets face it, newbies aren't very good at it either :p
21:50:09  <V453000> yeah that doesn't
21:50:26  <V453000> but the fact that it is infuriatingly terrible, does matter :P
21:50:52  <peter1138> that's why we defered the task of making it good to other script writers, heh
21:50:55  <V453000> yeah, AI able to beat a player who hasn't seen the game ever yet ... useful competitor.
21:51:44  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, i learned about signals from the AI
21:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> the original ai, that is
21:52:16  <V453000> that probably explains your signalling knowledge XD :P
21:52:20  <V453000> had to :>
21:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure whether that was still in the demo or if i had the full game already
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21:57:00  <drac_boy> if its clogging your map then why are you blocking its original routes? I dunno tbh tho heh
21:57:54  <V453000> any piece of the map AI takes means stupid obstacle to the player
21:57:55  <drac_boy> although I think there was one single map that the early ai just didn't understand. some kind of britian map with lot of one-way signalled tracks
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21:58:29  <drac_boy> umm like I said, if its making weird routes then why are you blocking its original one?
21:58:51  <V453000> ?
21:59:01  <Eddi|zuHause> no AI will understand rails that it did not build itself
21:59:05  <V453000> it always does weird shit even if the player doesn't interfere
21:59:29  <drac_boy> well I've only seen it not make straight rails if I left something of my own in its way while it was halfway through
22:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the original ai was terrible with roads, because it could not cross diagonal rails with a bridge
22:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so it left giant messes of circles
22:00:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and it never cleared roads up
22:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and you couldn't remove them eiher
22:00:39  <Eddi|zuHause> +t
22:00:42  <drac_boy> humans not clearing their roads also sometimes happens too
22:01:13  <drac_boy> at least in singleplayer that 'road owner invalided by lack of traffic' setting is nice to have nevertheless
22:01:19  <V453000> only a total retard would build messes of circles :P
22:01:50  <V453000> it is a shame no AI can build decent railways
22:01:57  <V453000> at least I haven't seen such
22:02:03  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: but they would not build 10x5 areas of completely filled roads
22:06:30  <drac_boy> actually they do indeed build many circling roads jst because they don't want to build the station in a more open spot
22:06:46  <drac_boy> kinda funny to watch this on tropical maps a bit too often :-s (no hills in way yeah)
22:07:56  <drac_boy> at least one good thing about tropical maps in MP was all the water to profit from :)
22:17:20  <drac_boy> crisco I know its bit OT now but just asking, you ever tried any industry grf or always only ever used the original one?
22:41:05  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch> drac_boy: are you eddi in disguise? <-- ey... i played the game in 2012!
22:45:55  <Wolf01> nice, there are enough strange buses to make a full grf
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22:50:09  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not enough pixels for that
22:54:42  <Supercheese> Who says that Mack trucks can't refit to passengers?  ;)
22:54:58  <Supercheese> fun stuff from that link
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23:02:37  <drac_boy> wolf01 well....that first bus indeed looks rather strange
23:03:08  <drac_boy> and supercheese .. "truck" buses are actually somewhat typical in some countries around the africa or south europe areas .. I forgot exactly where but I've seen many photos taken of them
23:03:33  <Supercheese> yeah I can believe it, but it looks very very strange to me
23:03:56  <Wolf01> I've never seen a truck bus here
23:03:57  <Supercheese> US regulatory agencies would have a fit if such a thing was attempted here
23:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the amount of photos that exist of something is not really proportional with how common it is
23:04:04  <drac_boy> naturally eg france/usa/etc don't even allow them due to the usual "no passengers in a trailer when it is moving" kind of regulations (thats why a vehicle+trailer rv always has a small daytime interior in the vehicle half itself)
23:04:14  <drac_boy> supercheese see what I just said heh ^
23:04:38  <Supercheese> ya
23:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there have definitely been busses with trailers
23:05:30  <Wolf01> yes, but they are articulated buses, not completely separated vehicles
23:06:33  *** JezK_ [~jez@2407:7800:400:107f:3db5:daca:8457:e66a] has joined #openttd
23:06:43  <drac_boy> wolf01 actually I forgot about it till now and I have no clue how the regulations covers them (I only know of swiss's example anyway) ... heres one for you
23:07:17  <drac_boy> these were done due to the old buses being still reliable but not lowfloor-ready so rather than scrapping/selling the buses they simply added these low-floor units
23:08:21  <drac_boy> the window line difference says it all if you noticed
23:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no, not articulated. a real separated trailer:Ànger_vom_Typ_HW80_(W701)._-_Flickr_-_gravitat-OFF.jpg
23:09:19  <drac_boy> funny thing about the swiss one tho is, the trailer has no motors .. but yet I haven't heard of any of them struggling through the snowy roads (the fact theres lot of slopes everywhere also says something too)
23:09:35  <drac_boy> probably the swiss people knew what a real winter-grip tire was :)
23:09:57  <drac_boy> (compared to eg the ottawa buses here that runs on same tire from summer through winter too often and they wonder why their buses get stuck a lot!)
23:10:58  *** frosch [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
23:11:06  <sim-al2> Wait I thought most people "up north" so to speak had winter tires
23:12:25  <drac_boy> sim-a12 some crappy cities in canada have no clue .. whats offending is that the ottawa politics basically said "our climate is special that we can't just buy any winter tires yet" ... thats literally ignoring finland/switzerland/etc which have buses running on true winter tires of all the things
23:12:55  <drac_boy> I know about that quote because I actually read it in the meeting announcements some time ago
23:13:32  <drac_boy> and btw supercheese it looks like you can add cuba to the list I think
23:13:54  <drac_boy> the irregular roofline doesn't surprise me ... its probably following the floor height of the original trailer chassis me think?
23:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the bus type that i linked was usually driven without trailer if the route went through hilly terrain
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23:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> oh:
23:17:53  <drac_boy> oh and I forgot the usa city name now but on the topic of slight unusual things .. there was one usa city with trolleybus services ... and during certain winter days they always stationed a heavy haul tow truck at the bottom of a certain long steep street to push up any trolleybus that came this way
23:18:12  <drac_boy> apparently the roads were sometimes a bit too slick there a few days a year!
23:18:27  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that sounds like san francisco :p
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23:19:00  <Supercheese> San Fran grades are steeeep
23:19:03  <sim-al2> I think San Francisco has had lots of trouble with buses stalling
23:19:11  <drac_boy> does it even snow in san francisco? :P
23:19:16  <sim-al2> Not really
23:19:22  <Supercheese> basically never
23:19:45  <sim-al2> Too close to the ocean, it's just north of what is essentially a Mediterrean climate
23:19:46  <Supercheese> if it ever snowed hard in San Fran, the city would be completely paralyzed
23:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> well, how should i know...
23:20:06  <Supercheese> same goes for most of California
23:20:18  <drac_boy> sim-a12 little funny fact: sometimes the cable cars can have trouble re-engaging the cable after coming to a uphill red light stop and so you have these friendly bus or truck giving them a slow nudge to get a bit speed to try engage cable
23:20:22  <sim-al2> Coastal California, inland is far different
23:20:44  <Eddi|zuHause> california is huge... it spans several climate zones
23:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and in mountaneous areas you have these micro climates where every valley has its own unique climate
23:21:45  <sim-al2> Yeah, nothing like desert, temperate grassland, and temperate rainforest in the same state :)
23:22:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like you mushed spain, england and the alps together
23:22:49  <drac_boy> sim-a12 the real reason these nudges happens is because if the cable car from a standstill (and gravity working against it) tried to forcefully clamp onto the cable .. it would risk shredding the cable braids itself
23:23:03  <drac_boy> you know what I'm saying? this is what I have heard from some people watching these things
23:23:46  <sim-al2> Yeah, I know they use wood in the grip to ease the wear
23:24:04  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:25:03  <drac_boy> sim-a12 btw did you know that there was actually a small cable car (vehicle even looked exactly like san franciso's) outside calfornia? it was on expo ground too
23:25:20  <Supercheese> Spokane, WA used to have cable cars too
23:25:32  <Supercheese> they ditched them though
23:25:48  <Supercheese> once buses got powerful enough and such
23:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: sometimes you just need them to be obsolete at the right time for someone to say "hey we should preserve them for tourism"
23:27:23  <sim-al2> There's been some complaints in SF about a private shuttle bus some company. It runs straight up one of the hills using just a regular coach bus, so it's slow and pretty loud
23:27:35  <Supercheese> well Spokane also doesn't have the crazy slopes that SF does
23:28:06  <sim-al2> The earliest railways used some cable haulage too, since steam locomotives in the 1830s weren't all that powerful
23:28:19  <Supercheese> those cable cars could ascend almost any grade at the same cable speed, crazy power available
23:28:32  <Supercheese> could/can
23:28:37  <sim-al2> So they tried to keep it as level as possible, and than had one big hill that the trains would be hauled up
23:28:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: it also was that they didn't really trust the adhesion
23:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> sim-al2: they usually dropped the cable as soon as they felt comfortable
23:29:15  <sim-al2> Supercheese: Not being limited to what fits on the vehicles helps a lot too
23:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> most rack rail lines met the same fate
23:29:57  <sim-al2> Yeah, true. Apparently some of the London terminai still have steep slopes near the station because of it
23:30:12  <Supercheese> it's pretty neat that every little coach has the massive power of the stationary engines available to it, basically only limited by gripping power
23:30:52  <Supercheese> I can see why the 19th century engineers thought it was the way to go
23:31:24  <Supercheese> but of course the severe limitation of only being able to go where the cable itself goes...
23:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: with trains you don't usually use a continuously running cable. more like one engine will go down, and another go up at the same time
23:32:09  <sim-al2> The Usui pass in central Japan started out as a rack railway, since it has slopes of 6.67%. In the early 60's they removed it and replaced it with pairs of dedicated electric locomotives that helped all trains up and down, even the multiple unit trains
23:32:41  <Eddi|zuHause> also, mountain cable cars mostly work on that principle as well
23:32:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need a lot of power that way, as the masses are mostly balanced
23:33:16  <Supercheese> funiculars yeah
23:34:03  <Supercheese> ♪ Funiculí, Funiculá ♫
23:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that song is rarely sung with the original text around here :p
23:35:26  <Supercheese> I hear lots of instrumental versions, even more so than ones with lyrics
23:35:48  <Supercheese> no one here would understand the original lyrics anyway
23:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> with "not original" i mean really dirty versions that people come up when drunk :p
23:36:19  <Supercheese> Heh
23:41:34  <drac_boy> btw the glasgow metro was cable-worked in a circular manner too I believe.....later the electrical power pickups were retrofitted into the tunnel

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