Log for #openttd on 20th February 2016:
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00:00:50  <drac_boy> btw for anyone who might just want an idea of what-if for a fictional usa-style locomotive have a look at this
00:01:11  <drac_boy> probably wouldn't be difficult to give it its own whine engine soundtrack in the grf anyway
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00:19:26  <drac_boy> hmm yikes must be interesting road traffic organization at that time
00:22:57  <sim-al2> I wouldn't be be surprised if they had flagmen for that
00:23:42  <drac_boy> hows you as always?
00:23:49  <sim-al2> I'm good
00:23:53  <drac_boy> doing ok here
00:24:36  <drac_boy> btw we were talking about prr steam before but before I forget heres something a bit different..
00:25:06  <sim-al2> In the early days of steam-powered vehicles the UK passed a law that required most self-propelled road vehicles to have a flagman anyway (and a later law, very very low speed limits)
00:26:08  <drac_boy> norfolk&western J class anyone? they were purposely built with smaller tires than the usual because simply they were designed to run fast *over* mountains :)
00:27:16  <drac_boy> I even recall one article where a photographer was in the area just taking some photos then he noticed a local freight train trying to move uphill as fast as its poor pistons would .. and the duo were looking at their timetable wondering why such a train was trying to rush it
00:28:45  <Wolf01> I watched a video of that one yesterday
00:29:18  <drac_boy> the answer is it somehow had been let out ahead of an express train which soon turned out to be a J class ... thankfully by the time it arrived the would-be red signal turned green (meaning the local had cleared) and the photographers got surprised when the J accelerated quite fast from right there
00:31:08  <sim-al2> Big bearings on those rods:
00:31:46  <sim-al2> Note the roller bearings on most (all?) axles
00:32:11  <sim-al2> Oh yeah, it does
00:33:20  <drac_boy> the funny thing is that one of the J was loaned to another railroad for test comparison and the paper put down the J as being slow (re top speed) .. of course the test was done on a flatland route which was a bit out of character for a mountain express locomotive
00:34:18  <sim-al2> It seems that it was run in excess of 100 mph at some points though
00:34:20  <drac_boy> abotu roller bearing, I believe timken actually bought their own locomotive as to fully refit it with bearings instead of journal and put it on tour, thats about all I recall on that subject
00:37:44  <sim-al2> Yeah, it seems to have taken a long time for roller bearings to catch on, considering the savings on needing to inspect and refill the grease so often
00:38:33  <sim-al2> Freight cars were still rolling around with plain bearings into the 70's, I guess because of the cost of converting old cars
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00:43:51  <sim-al2> Hmm, grfcrawler is throwing a 500 error
00:44:02  <drac_boy> well from what I see the J class with 70 inch drivers could do bit over 100mph while the 80 inch on a UP 8-coupled was rated to 120mph but apparently would go faster than that
00:45:22  <sim-al2> apparently the Milwaukee's F7 4-4-2 could reach or exceed 120mph, but speed measuring in those days was sometimes.... optimistic...
00:45:23  <drac_boy> the E6 was 80 inch as well but likely limited by the small boiler (especially its length) re 115mph max on the special run
00:45:47  <drac_boy> heh these "as swift as an arrow" F7, dern them :)
00:46:34  <drac_boy> btw sim-a12 did you know that one of the F7 basically "blew up" its siderod assembly from the lubricator failing? thankfully even with emergency brake and a rod slamming into the ties/gravel the train still managed to stay completely upright on rails
00:47:00  <drac_boy> sadly because diesels were starting to come in this one F7 was shunned to the scrapyard and never to be anymore soon
00:49:44  <sim-al2> Yeah, I imagine that they were dependent on automatic lubricators to survive running at those speeds
00:50:05  <drac_boy> yep, the particular ones on the F7 had a bit of less-than-healthy history
00:50:54  <sim-al2> Great, I can't get the xUSSR set because TTD Russia is down for some kind of transfer
00:52:24  <sim-al2> Anyone else getting an Internal Server Error:
00:53:00  <DexDeadly> is there anything particular that needs to be done to enable connection from outside the network
00:53:44  <sim-al2> DexDeadly: You mean OpenTTD on your machine?
00:54:11  <drac_boy> oh yeah, fun quiz for you sim-a12 ... guess what kind of special track thinge would cause a lot of water to splash all over the place on the occasional fast trains? :)
00:56:19  <sim-al2> Uh, track pans? Or one seriously undermined washout...
00:56:26  <drac_boy> you guessed right at the former
00:56:58  <drac_boy> well I was just looking up some examples to see about a grf idea and I found something else I just never ever knew had existed..
00:57:01  <sim-al2> The Brits really loved them, and a few eastern railroads in the US, other places not so much
00:57:09  <drac_boy> thats not even a steam locomotive
00:57:36  <drac_boy> short note: the Type 4 had steam boilers before electric coaches were around it seem
00:57:41  <sim-al2> Yeah, the early diesels could piggy back on that and pick up water for the steam boilers
00:58:11  <sim-al2> Early diesels in a pinch could use water towers to refill their coolant too
00:58:47  <drac_boy> still, a diesel scooping water .. I'm sure I could hear uninformed american modellers going " that a diesel locomotive?"
00:58:48  <drac_boy> :p
00:58:51  <sim-al2> I can't imagine sitting in the splash zone is good for those ties though
00:59:18  <sim-al2> That's a really cool photo
00:59:26  <drac_boy> yeah I suspect half of the higher maintenances was not in the water system itself but indirectly the ties/ground erosions
01:00:02  <sim-al2> A large scale water system will need some control for scaling, corrosion, etc too
01:00:10  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:00:55  <sim-al2> Many desert railways had to use water treatment because what little water they could get in arid areas was often poor quality
01:02:32  <drac_boy> heres one of the few northeast usa examples looks like they put extra-wide ballast in and covered the top with "splash bricks" to weaken the water into washing away less gravels
01:02:59  <sim-al2> Hmm, these guys really needed slab track...
01:03:11  <drac_boy> THAT is one tender you do not want to stand next to tho... lot of water at very high speed 0_0
01:03:30  <drac_boy> heck it even has more than ten (equally divided between left and right) bleed holes
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01:04:10  <drac_boy> heres a more side-visible view .. lot of water being overflown out eh
01:04:13  <sim-al2> Just add a pan here:
01:04:26  <sim-al2> Oh wow
01:04:57  <drac_boy> these Niagara had very HUGE tender to match the demand for very long nonstop run :p
01:05:37  <drac_boy> you kinda can see the slanted rivet line where the coal bunker meets the smaller water tank ... coal is hard to get on fly but water isn't < obviously
01:06:39  <drac_boy> of course there is always the water tender wagon as a 'second tender' for the less-priority train runs
01:06:43  <sim-al2> I belive the NYC dispatched 4-8-2s with smallish water capacity, but 43 tons of coal since they could get water from the track pans
01:07:19  <sim-al2> Oh yeah, those zany Germans and their track:
01:07:43  <drac_boy> australia not surprisingly had a sizeable number of these water "tenders" that was used with just about anything even the once-weekly branch mixed trains
01:08:24  <sim-al2> Yeah, much earlier and more often than most railways too
01:08:57  <sim-al2> Of course, the water  tenders have reappeared now that most stations lack watering facilities
01:09:41  <sim-al2> And the condensing locomotive designs, the most famous being the South African Red Devils...
01:10:27  <drac_boy> heh actually I don't recall what exactly went on but these particular tenders were pretty much rebuilt into conventional tank+bunker design later in the locomotive's life
01:10:49  <drac_boy> the tank was naturally a bit small as the now-empty space around it apparently was supposed to be where the condenser stuffs went
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01:12:21  <drac_boy> heres one photo
01:12:39  <drac_boy> seem they were grouped as 25NC .. wonder if that meant 'No Condenser'? never know heh
01:13:41  <sim-al2> Yeah, I think it's Non-Condensing, but of course you don't want to accidently dispatch a NC into the desert...
01:14:15  <drac_boy> btw I'm not exactly sure what was the reasoning for it but I know that DR even had condensing tenders somewhere at some point
01:15:13  <drac_boy> then again DR seem to have tried quite a different kind of unique things .. not to mention a few locomotives from one class having their normal coal tender being switched for a strange hopper-looking one that was designed around firing on pulverized coal (needless that did not turn out too well as I recall afaik)
01:15:29  <sim-al2> Condensing was somewhat common, not necesairly for saving water but on the early urban railways, it helped reduce the emissions from the locomotive
01:15:32  <DexDeadly> sorry i realized I did not set my port forward to tcp and udp fixed and working now for a fun weekend with some friends
01:16:09  <sim-al2> The London underground had condensing locomotives using coke for fuel, all very good for running underground...
01:16:33  <drac_boy> here it is .. that strange thing sitting on top of the normal tender box is the pulverize machine whatever it really did up there I dunno
01:17:05  <sim-al2> DexDeadly: Yeah that's the one thing you might have to change, but of course every router has to be so inconsistent
01:18:03  <drac_boy> and even the germans tried bite the "italy bug" too
01:18:20  <drac_boy> I think there is not anything out there that has not already been tried by some way in germany too ;)
01:18:46  <sim-al2> Apparently the DR 58 class was converted to coal-DUST firing at some point
01:19:58  <sim-al2> Hmm, I wonder how many steam turbines they built
01:20:32  <drac_boy> turbines? you want turbines?
01:20:37  <sim-al2> Oh my:
01:20:47  <sim-al2> wat
01:20:47  <drac_boy> I only know that existed but I got NO clue how it ran or whenever it even lasted
01:21:31  <drac_boy> looks like 2 or 3 turbines and umm I hope theres some reversing system somewhere
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01:22:58  <sim-al2> Not a turbine, but rather odd looking:
01:23:32  <sim-al2> I imagine, rather warm in the summer
01:23:49  <drac_boy> haha, that was because the firebox need to be wide for the slow-burn high-btu coal :p
01:24:08  <sim-al2> Yep, poor fireman has pretty minimal protection though
01:24:57  <sim-al2> And verbal communication is pretty impossible
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01:26:39  <drac_boy> well I recall some uk locomotives did fire on slower coals too, their firebox pretty much pushed the track gauge
01:27:18  <drac_boy> don't recall which tender class it was for an example tho
01:29:54  <drac_boy> btw heres a non-camelback anthracite fired locomotive to counter your camelback anyhow ;)
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01:34:36  <sim-al2> Now that's what I call a firebox...
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01:43:38  <drac_boy> btw how would you like to run a locomotive on peat?
01:44:54  <sim-al2> Sounds Finnish...
01:45:41  <drac_boy> ireland in fact .. same man who tried build the Leader in uk too
01:46:05  <sim-al2> Huh, I was going for Scotland as my second guess...
01:46:24  <sim-al2> How well did it work?
01:47:00  <drac_boy> not for long it would seem
01:48:52  <drac_boy> anyhow I'm going to bed soon so you have fun with something else here allright? :)
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07:32:04  <andythenorth> o/
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08:10:27  * andythenorth needs a faster horse
08:10:46  <Alberth> hihi
08:10:54  <Alberth> this a firs bug?
08:11:51  <andythenorth> nah don’t think so
08:12:03  <andythenorth> it’s related something like the removal of gridlines :)
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08:13:10  <Alberth> just couple more horse for more speed?
08:13:27  <andythenorth> faster compile :P
08:14:02  <Alberth> ha :)
08:15:49  <andythenorth> my ‘go faster’ approach with incremental compiles is *very* fast if only a few things changed
08:15:58  <andythenorth> but the overhead for a compile from clean is huge
08:19:10  * andythenorth might remove all the nml-nfo stuff
08:19:18  <andythenorth> plain nml, unified compile
08:20:57  <andythenorth> seems to take about 15 seconds per roster, scales linearly with number of rosters
08:21:25  <andythenorth> there is unfinished support for compiling just one roster
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08:28:44  <Alberth> just disable a few others while testing one
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08:29:44  <andythenorth> with the incremental compile overhead, it’s 2 mins for first compile
08:29:48  <andythenorth> versus 30s without
08:30:00  <andythenorth> need to compile 4 times without mistakes to make it worth it :P
08:30:46  <andythenorth> every time I make a mistake, the 30s compile wins
08:31:41  <Alberth> so make lots of mistakes? :D
08:32:57  <andythenorth> don’t even need to try :P
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08:43:14  <andythenorth> bbl
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09:19:32  <_johannes> I'm still on that rail net graph exporter... The difficult thing is that most YAPF function require a train as argument
09:19:56  <_johannes> so, if I'm trying to find the route from B->C, but my train is still at A, I'll need to somehow get the train to B
09:20:28  <_johannes> would you suggest to let the train drive the whole suggested path, or instead manipulating its location each time I need it to be in another station?
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09:24:28  <Alberth> hmm
09:24:41  <Alberth> considered implementing your own A*?
09:26:11  <_johannes> Alberth: don't know if that's a good idea :P
09:26:24  <Alberth> or maybe add a second way to start up the search?
09:26:49  <_johannes> possible, with some modifications in Yapf
09:26:51  <Alberth> I don't know what properties of the train are used while searching
09:27:29  <Alberth> well, the puzzle is that speed of existing A* is crucial
09:27:30  <_johannes> one could try to pass a "pseudo train" or similar
09:28:02  <_johannes> with crucial, you mean "bad", or "relevant"?
09:28:11  <Alberth> making it faster is ok, making it slower is not
09:28:32  <Alberth> it's the #1 bottleneck in moving vehicles around at the map
09:28:55  <Alberth> so immediately related to the max number of vehicles in the game
09:29:22  <_johannes> ok...
09:29:59  <Alberth> although I am not convinced the current implementation is the best you can have :p
09:31:15  <Alberth> the entire template stuff looks like an elaborate way to prevent any compiler optimizations, to me
09:31:56  <Alberth> at the time, it was no doubt faster, but several years of compiler development have passed since then
09:35:08  <_johannes> you mean virtual functions would increase speed here?
09:36:19  <Alberth> I don't know, but the current implementation just locks any option out
09:36:47  <Alberth> compilers tend to get optimized for the common code case
09:37:02  <Alberth> a class with a base class and virtual functions is quite common :)
09:38:50  <Alberth> the more convoluted code you hack around things, the less likely it is that the compiler understands what you're doing
09:39:09  <Alberth> so you totally rely on your own coding ability for optimizing
09:39:48  <Alberth> even if the author could do that X years ago, it won't be optimal today
09:40:12  <Alberth> processors, memory, and compilers change continuously
09:44:30  <michi_cc> _johannes: You need your own replacement for CYapfFollowRailT::ChooseRailTrack anyway, what prevents you from choosing yoour origin differently than the existing implementation?
09:46:40  <sim642_> Alberth, templates don't prevent compiler optimizations because templates generate non-template code in the background which gets optimized just as any other code
09:47:01  <Alberth> you looked at the yapf code?
09:47:12  <sim642_> furthermore, the optimizations might be different for different types the template is used with to provide even greater level of optimization for speficic use
09:47:26  <sim642_> no, not really
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09:50:50  <sim642> the suboptimal aspect of templates would be the produced binary size if the same template is used with a huge number of different arguments since that causes duplicate functionality code but I'm not sure if it'd cause much performance impact
09:51:07  <_johannes> michi_cc: good point! looks like one can simply pass NULL as the vehicle in FindPath
09:51:26  <_johannes> and yes, the origin and destination could be found otherwise
09:51:46  <michi_cc> _johannes: I wouldn't do that unless you want to ignore railtypes.
09:52:39  <_johannes> michi_cc: oh, yes, I see it
09:53:17  <_johannes> michi_cc: maybe just replacing all occurences of Vehicle* by something that meets the minimum requirements the pathfinder needs?
09:53:36  <_johannes> like: FindPath(UsedVehicleDate* v)
09:53:41  <roidal> what high-resolution graphic sets would you suggest?
09:54:06  <michi_cc> What'S wrong simply using the train you are graphing?
09:54:11  <roidal> for landmarks, and vehicles
09:54:42  <_johannes> michi_cc: if my train has the order list a->b->c->b, then to find the track from b to c, I'll need to move it to b first, correct?
09:55:03  <michi_cc> No.
09:58:00  <_johannes> ah, you mean: I pass the origin to my st... function, use that to get the origin (instead of getting it from the train), but then still pass the train to FindPath()?
09:58:44  <Alberth> check how it uses orders?
10:01:40  <_johannes> already tried, but all these function only check the next order
10:02:09  <_johannes> ok, I think I got it...
10:05:28  <roidal> hm, can the basesets GFX use the newGFX format too?
10:05:52  <roidal> newGRF*
10:08:20  <Alberth> basesets and newgrf are quite separate worlds, afaik
10:08:58  <Alberth> but both support high resolution graphics, and full colour
10:09:10  <Alberth> as well as the original 8bpp art
10:09:24  <roidal> ah, so the baseset-format was change too
10:09:28  <roidal> to provide 32bpp?
10:09:48  <Alberth> at least for the sets that have such high resolution / full colour grapihcs, that is
10:10:20  <Alberth> zBase is a baseset with 32bpp, and high resolution
10:10:35  <Alberth> I don't like it though, too clean to my taste
10:11:41  <Alberth> afaik there is a 32bpp wiki page
10:11:46  <Alberth> listing stuff
10:11:56  <Alberth> no idea how up to date it is
10:14:29  <roidal> hm
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10:31:57  <Wolf01> moin
10:32:54  <Alberth> o/
10:51:34  * andythenorth refactors compile :|
10:51:45  * andythenorth probably needs to teach make about deps
10:51:48  <andythenorth> blearch
10:54:06  <Wolf01> lol... I ordered a display dock from microsoft back in december, shipping in 4-6 weeks, put 1 week for the shipping itself... where's my product? still not shipped, contacted the customer support "we are sorry, we'll ship it in 8-12 weeks", I hope it will come before I'll change the phone when it will become old :(
10:55:10  <Wolf01> back to train driving session
10:57:32  <andythenorth> gah
10:57:43  <andythenorth> nmlc takes 26s, but the compile takes 40s :(
10:57:50  * andythenorth must find the slow
10:58:12  <Wolf01> buy a faster pc?
11:00:16  <Wolf01> meh, no steam loco tutorial, had to figure out alone how to not blow up the loco just after the first acceleration
11:05:54  * andythenorth tries all the pythons
11:09:41  <andythenorth> yeah, new computer is probably the solution
11:09:41  <andythenorth> :P
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11:17:18  <argoneus> good morning train friends
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12:22:15  <_johannes> the real problem about the templates is imo not the runtime
12:22:25  <_johannes> it's that you can't read the code as a human
12:23:15  <_johannes> for example, rail nodes have an attribute named m_key , but where is that m_key actually defined
12:23:33  <_johannes> it's in some base class, which depends on many templates...
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12:25:25  <Alberth> ag m_key
12:25:47  <_johannes> ag ?
12:26:07  <Alberth> grep, but tuned for searching source code
12:26:41  <_johannes> for example, yapf_costrail.hpp, line 329... where is that m_key defined? I have no clue...
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12:29:04  <Alberth>    is the ag output
12:30:05  <Alberth> so yapf_node.hpp  or yapf_node_rail.hpp
12:30:15  <Alberth> hoi
12:30:45  <frosch123> hmm, "ag" is shorter than "~/my<tab>"
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12:31:05  <_johannes> I just installed "ack"
12:31:12  <_johannes> ag is not available for gentoo...
12:31:24  <Alberth> $ rpm -qf `which ag`
12:31:24  <Alberth> the_silver_searcher-0.31.0-1.fc22.x86_64
12:31:27  <frosch123> _johannes: i suspect the "a" stans for "alberth"
12:31:32  <_johannes> lol
12:31:50  <Alberth> nope, it doesn't :)
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12:32:45  <frosch123> hmm there is a silversearcher-ag package
12:33:18  <_johannes> for which distro frosch123 ?
12:33:26  <_dp_> "The command name is 33% shorter than ack, and all keys are on the home row!"
12:33:33  <frosch123> debian
12:33:39  <_dp_> who cares about home row probably doesn't use querty...
12:34:12  <Wolf01> fuck, steam locomotives are really a mess, I can't even figure out how I made it moving, I think if I chose the one with full simulation it would blow up in some seconds
12:34:14  <frosch123> _dp_: there are people using german keyboard layout, who claim that vim is any good
12:34:20  <Alberth> I used ack for a while, but there was an edge case where it didn't do what I wanted
12:35:04  <_johannes> anyways, Alberth , I think it's from yapf_node.hpp, but the type is Tkey_
12:35:15  <Alberth> template type?
12:35:21  <frosch123> but well, there are also people who do not use a 40 year old arcane keyboard layout, who think that vim using ESC as escape key is any good
12:35:48  <_johannes> yes, and I don'T know where this is from
12:36:39  <Alberth> yep, reading that code is a challenge :)
12:36:58  <frosch123> oh, it uses colours, how unusual
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12:38:20  <_dp_> frosch123, I know next to nothing about both vim and german layout so no idea what're you trying to say %)
12:39:24  <frosch123> vim uses "/" for searching
12:39:24  <Alberth> _johannes:   bottom of yapf_common.hpp lists the overall template
12:39:30  <frosch123> which is a convenient key on an us layout
12:39:43  <frosch123> but is shift+7 on a german layout, which is the worst for a hotkey
12:39:59  <Alberth> _johannes:   ag CYapfT
12:40:24  <_johannes> Alberth: just saw where it is defined: struct CYapfRail1         : CYapfT<CYapfRail_TypesT<CYapfRail1        , CFollowTrackRail    , CRailNodeListTrackDir, CYapfDestinationTileOrStationRailT, CYapfFollowRailT> > {};
12:40:25  <Alberth> no german keyboard remapping available?
12:40:26  <frosch123> also vim uses ESC as a common key, which was in the position of capslock on the machine vi was designed for; but which is a silly to reach key nowadays
12:40:59  <_dp_> shift+7 doesn't sound too horrible, and I bet you can rebind it if you want
12:41:07  <Alberth> /me finds esc position very convenient (but I am left-handed :p )
12:41:11  <frosch123> Alberth: i only use vim when there is no other editor available, as such i always use the default configuration
12:41:21  <Alberth> makes sense
12:42:03  <frosch123> _dp_: i have trouble to press shift+7 with one hand; it's possible, but usuallyi use two
12:42:17  <Alberth> use ?  :p
12:42:36  <frosch123> is that equivalent to / ?
12:42:48  <Alberth> yes, but up instead of down
12:43:05  <Alberth> if you use N instead of n, you get reverse match
12:43:17  <Alberth> and you get mostly the normal search
12:44:12  <frosch123> _dp_: anyway, did you consider alternatives to ScrollCompanyClientsTo? like extending ScriptViewport::ScrollTo to work in ScriptCompanyMode ?
12:45:19  <_dp_> what is ScriptCompanyMode? you mean issuing commands on behalf of a company?
12:45:33  <frosch123> yes
12:45:34  <_dp_> I think it's more clear for it to be issued as deity
12:46:22  <frosch123> the difference is that using the CompanyMode would also allow human clients to issue a command like that
12:46:57  <_dp_> hm, yeah, but do they need to?
12:47:31  <frosch123> well, forcing a scrolling on all clients is already on the level of "does it need to do that" :p
12:47:47  <frosch123> usually there is a goal list or story book, where you can click on something which then triggers the scrolling
12:48:09  <_dp_> also there is other problem actually, it would be better to have command that scrolls clients individually, not whole company
12:48:19  <_dp_> but gs doesn't know a thing about clients
12:48:54  <frosch123> well, i would be annoyed by any automatic scrolling, if i am currently building something
12:49:04  <frosch123> so, i would always prefer some entry in the goal or story guy
12:49:23  <frosch123> why would you want to scroll single clients?
12:49:37  <frosch123> the client who issued something is likely already in the position
12:49:47  <frosch123> you would want to tell the other clients in the company
12:49:49  <_dp_> I'm only going to use it when clients join/start company
12:49:55  <_dp_> to focus on claimed town in cb
12:50:02  <frosch123> ah, on joining
12:50:46  <frosch123> that's like a completely different thing :p
12:51:14  <_dp_> I'm also thinking of automatically claiming some random town for new company, and scrolling is a must for that
12:52:14  <frosch123> ok, i will think a bit more about that "join company" context
12:52:29  <_dp_> yeah, mb it wold make more sense to extend joining itself, but there is no place for gs
12:52:50  <frosch123> it would also make sense for other scripts to display the goal/status to joining clients
12:53:05  <frosch123> like in silicon valley i only display the goal on game start or when a company is funded
12:53:10  <frosch123> not when joining
12:53:14  <_dp_> also I can imagine some gs that may need scrolling in the middle of the game if some major event happens
12:53:29  <frosch123> that i would file under annoying :p
12:54:04  <_dp_> not if it happens once in a game
12:56:59  <Wolf01> yes, I agree with frosch123, gnomoria has it and it's really annoying when you are building something, last time I mined an entire layer because a lizard was sighted
12:58:24  <_dp_> even I argee on that, but we're just talking about api here, it's up to gs to use it wisely
12:58:32  <Wolf01> at least in ottd if the construction fails, it doesn't construct even the pieces which don't fail
12:58:37  <frosch123> yes, it all depends on context :)
12:59:29  <Wolf01> it could be good for tutorials, but you have to disable the user interaction before doing that
12:59:30  <_dp_> Wolf01, that one is not true, many things do construct partially
12:59:52  <Wolf01> you mean with autorail/road?
13:00:03  <_dp_> autorail, area clear
13:00:28  <Wolf01> oh, the area clear with drag&drop has been finally implemented?
13:01:10  <Wolf01> wait, maybe I'm confusing with the diagonal clearing
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13:04:55  <_dp_> btw, for tutorial(s) there is ScrollTo function. this one is more for tutorial-ish multiplayer things)
13:07:44  <frosch123> Wolf01: don't imitate eddi :p
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13:09:14  <Wolf01> I'm doing my best efforts
13:14:04  <_dp_> speaking of drag&drop construction... it probably shouldn't work across multiple viewports)
13:14:47  <frosch123> you probably mean news and vehicle viewports
13:15:00  <frosch123> because the extra viewports were specifically added for that
13:15:14  <frosch123> i think it's even disabled in the news viewport
13:15:16  <_dp_> yeah, leads to building weird things when news suddenly pops up
13:16:01  <_dp_> is it? never had this issue with news myself but I recall someone complaining
13:17:14  <_dp_> only happened to me with extra viewport that I had pinned to watch some town
13:18:08  <Wolf01> I usually do that with long straight lines or tunnels
13:18:53  <frosch123> hmm, maybe i only dreamed that :p
13:19:14  <_dp_> you build tunnel only on one end so that's fine anyway
13:19:31  <Wolf01> not if you don't know where it ends ;)
13:19:34  <_dp_> and for long lines it sounds overcomplicated, why not just zoom out?
13:19:42  <Wolf01> because touch
13:20:27  <_dp_> I mean you can use extra viewport to see other end, it's not cross-viewport constuction
13:20:48  <Wolf01> yes, I meant that
13:20:55  <Wolf01> for tunnels
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13:24:13  <Wolf01> with touch screen and 2x zoom in (because in normal zoom I miss the tile) is difficult to scroll
13:24:42  <Wolf01> so for > 30 tiles tracks it is really useful
13:26:26  <_dp_> hm, I bet polyrail is even more useful then xD
13:27:00  <_dp_> also, just checked, constructing works on news, no restrictions at all
13:27:03  <Wolf01> even a double track autorail with signal would be handy in that case
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13:40:31  <_dp_> I'm considering doing a patch that adds a third type of economy, say, "stable", in which production doesn't change at all.
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13:40:57  <_dp_> frosch123, what do you think of it?
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13:41:57  <_dp_> also in that case is it ok to just switch setting type from bool to uint8 (or whatever matches the size) or should I add new one?
13:42:03  <Wolf01> but industries should start with middle-high production, because if all the industries start with 32t of production it will piss of everyone
13:42:09  <Wolf01> *off
13:42:36  <Alberth> _dp_:  that's something you can handle in newgrf
13:43:51  <_dp_> Alberth, I know there is grf already but it doesn't work with custom industry sets
13:44:18  <Alberth> it won't ever work with industry sets, as the newgrf decides
13:45:48  <_dp_> yet current smooth-switch does work
13:47:07  <Alberth> not really, newgrf doesn't understand smooth economy
13:48:49  <_dp_> as I see it works unless grf has a custom callback
13:49:44  <_dp_> though all popular ind sets probably have it...
13:49:54  <frosch123> i considered adding an "economy speed" parameter
13:50:07  <frosch123> which reduces calls to "random production changes"
13:50:17  <frosch123> slows down smooth economy, and is readable by newgrf
13:50:48  <_dp_> sounds fine for me too
13:51:14  <frosch123> about bool->uint8, we did that multiple times already, it just needs the right savegame conversion code
13:52:33  <frosch123> also smooth economy is a BAD FEATURE
13:52:43  <frosch123> it quite high on the realism bullshit ladder
13:55:00  <_dp_> idk about realism, but drying out industries on long-running mp server is bad for sure :p
13:55:18  <_dp_> and any production change isn't good for goal competitiveness
13:55:57  <frosch123> from single player gameplay point of view: the original double/half production changes were rare, and they called for player action
13:56:18  <frosch123> the smooth economy changes happen every month to all industries, there is no immediate implication on gameplay
13:56:33  <frosch123> it just obfuscates what is happening, snice the news messages are completely useless
13:56:52  <_dp_> for sp and non-goal mp any economy is fine, it's not a major factor
13:57:22  <frosch123> also when rolling a dice every month, you could as well skip rolling a dice
13:57:25  <andythenorth> economy is meh
13:57:33  <frosch123> randomness only makes sense when it is random
13:58:20  <_dp_> yeah, skipping a roll exactly is what I was thinking with that "stable" economy)
13:59:21  <frosch123> anyway, bye till evening
13:59:52  <_dp_> though I'm a bit confused with newgrfs now, do random changes happen in newgrfs internally or there are separate callbacks for smth like "base" production and random fluctuatitons?
14:00:52  <_dp_> because I don't want to stop ecs production increase or firs multipliers with this, just eliminate randomness
14:01:07  <_johannes> can a Tile be multiple squares? like, e.g., a whole 2x4 station is one Tile, consisting of 2x4 squares?
14:01:55  <_johannes> probably not because there is a TileArea type?
14:03:37  <_dp_> you mean TileIndex? It's just an integer so no
14:04:39  <_johannes> _dp_: ok, so a TileIndex represents exactly one square? (with square, I mean the small squares you see in a game)
14:05:43  <_dp_> _johannes, kinda, it's basically just a x and y coordinates merged together
14:05:57  <_johannes> _dp_: thanks
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14:11:36  <_dp_> _johannes, btw, those very squares are called tiles :) and there is Tile struct that stores info about each, I forgot about it at first
14:12:13  <_johannes> ah I saw that one...
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14:13:49  <_dp_> _johannes, so, TileIndex is exactly what it's called, an index in array of tiles (aka map)
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14:40:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: how does smooth economy work? :P
14:40:43  <andythenorth> and why doesn’t andythenorth just know this
14:44:48  * andythenorth ponders a GS
14:44:52  <andythenorth> keep-alive-industries
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14:45:13  <andythenorth> industries will close one-by-one unless arbitrary goals are met for each one
14:45:23  <andythenorth> winner is whoever has most industries left after n years
14:45:29  * andythenorth must to chores
14:45:31  <andythenorth> biab
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14:46:09  <drac_boy> hi
14:46:49  <drac_boy> btw anyone here from uk really thought the waterpans was only for nonstop express trains? well, heres something to the contrast
14:47:15  <drac_boy> I'm not sure but that sure looks like one of the very common freight 0-6-0's as well
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15:11:08  <drac_boy> weird thing is even when I was using ukrs a bit before I don't think I ever bothered buying the 0-6-0 at all
15:11:18  <drac_boy> ah well its just a grf after all :)
15:14:23  <drac_boy> either way do have one silly uic-related question tho... do you just write "two C'C' units" or is there a more informal way to describe these particular locomotives that was made up of at least two or more separate bodies permanently kept together?
15:16:36  * drac_boy might be missing something but isn't sure heh
15:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. C'C'+C'C'
15:22:35  <drac_boy> ah so thats where the plus came from...guess I'll try remember that for everything else
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15:24:24  <Alberth> it's fine if you write it down :)
15:25:46  <drac_boy> as long as you're not writing every single little things daily, this is what it could look like?
15:25:51  <drac_boy> mind you I'm just joking of course :p
15:26:23  <Alberth> just scan everything :p
15:26:40  <drac_boy> alberth yeah as I recall he wished all these filing cabinets away into the form of a blue imac :)
15:26:51  <drac_boy> had watched a bit of that movie some time ago
15:27:39  <Alberth>  how people spend their day   :)
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15:31:41  * drac_boy gives alberth ten thousand yellow post it's just cause
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16:03:20  <andythenorth> o/
16:05:37  * andythenorth remembers some FIRS thing in the makefile was slow
16:05:45  <andythenorth> sed over the hg log or something
16:06:06  <andythenorth> Iron Horse makefile is unexpectedly slow
16:09:12  <andythenorth> can’t remember what we changed
16:09:22  <drac_boy> umm, changelog? ;)
16:11:19  <andythenorth> maybe this
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16:23:02  <andythenorth> changed that, saved about 5s
16:24:49  <drac_boy> going to eat soon so bye anyhow mr.coder :) heh
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16:25:17  <Alberth> too much $(shell ...)   there
16:25:28  * andythenorth wonders about the makefiles
16:25:56  <andythenorth> I have 6 or so of them in active projects
16:25:58  <andythenorth> all different
16:26:37  <Alberth> version stuff (around line 150) is now in iirc
16:27:41  <Alberth> it seems to start a few dozen shells for major stuff like replacing a small piece of text
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16:27:58  <Alberth> you can probably even code that in the makefile itself :p
16:28:28  <Alberth> imho, code it in python, and throw out all the crap
16:28:57  <andythenorth> I don’t know what it does
16:29:02  <andythenorth> which makes me scared of it :)
16:29:22  <andythenorth> it’s eating 6 seconds or so on every compile
16:29:29  <andythenorth> seems to be overkill for the result
16:29:48  <Alberth> maybe replace it with
16:30:03  * andythenorth looks
16:30:22  <andythenorth> (the 6s is the total extra time to run the makefile, on top of the components that build the grf)
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16:31:07  <andythenorth> hmm
16:31:11  <andythenorth> what is
16:31:17  * andythenorth has missed a memo here :)
16:31:36  <Alberth> isn't one in bb?
16:31:47  <Alberth> may be GC specific thouigh
16:33:03  <Alberth> *GS
16:33:13  <Alberth>   doesn't seem to have one
16:33:58  <andythenorth> there is one in BB
16:34:13  * andythenorth wonders how to implement that
16:35:24  <Alberth> opengfx-mars  repos also have one
16:35:30  <andythenorth> it returns some vars I think
16:35:34  <andythenorth> and I need to parse those
16:35:38  * andythenorth guessing
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16:38:12  <Alberth> it returns revision, branch, modified flag and some more data
16:38:59  <Alberth> BB makefile parses it (not very good, I see though)
16:39:16  <Alberth> VERSION_INFO := "$(shell ./"
16:39:16  <Alberth> REPO_VERSION := $(shell echo ${VERSION_INFO} | cut -f2)
16:39:16  <Alberth> REPO_TAG := $(shell echo ${VERSION_INFO} | cut -f5)
16:39:16  <Alberth> REPO_DATE := $(shell echo ${VERSION_INFO} | cut -f7)
16:39:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i think make-nml uses the current date or something
16:47:34  <Alberth> UNIX2DOS=$(shell which unix2dos 2>/dev/null)   <--    make that   UNIX2DOS=unix2dos
16:48:00  <Alberth> no point in inserting the absolute path in the variable
16:48:25  <frosch123> that will likely break stuff
16:48:45  <frosch123> "which" is used in those cases to result in the empty string, when it does not exist
16:48:55  <frosch123> later there are ifs in the makefile, which check for empty string
16:49:11  <frosch123> however, you can make it a := instead of a =
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16:49:31  <Alberth> for optional stuff, ok
16:49:50  <Alberth> for required stuff, like nml, you can skip that
16:50:04  <Alberth> or hg
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17:04:15  <andythenorth> how do I merge default into a working branch with hg?
17:04:18  *** ConductorCat [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04:34  <andythenorth> I have just read the manual
17:04:44  <andythenorth> but not clear
17:04:59  <andythenorth> child #1 has been adding trains to iron-horse in a branch
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17:05:14  <andythenorth> and I want to pull recent changes from default into that branch
17:05:30  <andythenorth> is it safest to save a patch from default and apply it?
17:06:32  <Alberth> iirc, you check out the destination, and then merge with the other one
17:07:05  <Eddi|zuHause> hg checkout default, hg merge branch
17:07:10  <Alberth> hg has rollback, so you can do it, check how it looks, and then decide whether it's good
17:07:12  <andythenorth> ach, I can always delete the repo and clone again
17:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause> or the other way around
17:07:53  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  that's what I do to merge into default :)
17:08:05  <Alberth> but yeah, it's always tricky, one to look up
17:08:08  <andythenorth> is ‘hg checkout' synomymous with ‘hg up’ in this context?
17:08:15  <Alberth> it is
17:08:20  <andythenorth> ok
17:08:30  <andythenorth> so the commands are identical to git, but the results are different
17:08:38  <andythenorth> this page is totally impenetrable to me, but eh
17:09:37  <Alberth> that's moving stuff between repos
17:09:48  <andythenorth> works, thanks
17:10:18  <andythenorth> ah, that’s why it’s not answering my question then :)
17:10:44  <andythenorth> people merge between different repos? :o
17:10:49  <andythenorth> instead of just branching?
17:10:59  <andythenorth> or do they mean instances of the repo
17:11:00  <andythenorth> nvm
17:12:25  <Alberth> yesm hg recommends making a clone for a new branch, iirc
17:12:35  <Alberth> at least they did
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17:14:34  * andythenorth back to fixing animated pixels
17:22:31  <_johannes> is there a debug mode in openttd which shows me the tile coords under the mouse pointer?
17:24:03  <_dp_> land info does I think
17:24:52  <frosch123> yes landinfo
17:25:09  <frosch123> when debug is enabled via console, it also prints the map array for that tile to console
17:25:19  <frosch123> also there is the console command "scrollto" which does the reverse
17:25:22  <frosch123> scroll to tileindex
17:26:13  <_johannes> frosch123: just typing "landinfo" in console says "command not found"
17:27:16  <frosch123> it's in the info menu on the very right
17:28:12  <_johannes> ah that question mark thing... how could I forget that
17:31:24  <Alberth> play the game more often :p
17:31:42  <_johannes> haha I play it for five years, multiple hours each week :D
17:32:12  <_johannes> and still have not discovered half of the game...
17:32:16  * andythenorth too :P
17:32:46  <andythenorth> diagonal land-lower/raise :P
17:32:51  <andythenorth> recently found
17:32:56  <andythenorth> ctrl-drag vehicle groups
17:32:59  <andythenorth> recently found :P
17:33:27  <frosch123> <- always fun to read :)
17:33:32  <_johannes> I heard you can even build diagonal tunnels?
17:33:40  <andythenorth> :P
17:33:42  <_dp_> haha, when I learned about ctrl magic I tried ctrl-ing everything xD
17:34:24  <andythenorth> so many things I didn’t know :o
17:36:26  <_johannes> openttd is the game I've most played in my life
17:36:29  <_johannes> by far...
17:37:03  <_johannes> it's ~ 0.5% of my whole lifetime
17:37:06  <_johannes> :P
17:38:45  <frosch123> i am also worried that the most written english i have read, was chat by andy
17:39:30  <andythenorth> :P
17:39:35  <andythenorth> can’t be good
17:40:09  <frosch123> well, if i am lucky, i have read more pratchett
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17:48:31  <_dp_> how do newgrfs like firs randomize production?
17:49:16  <_dp_> something tells me that "random production change" callbacks aren't very random)
17:50:01  <frosch123> firs has no randomness whatsoever
17:50:43  <_dp_> I just checked with firs 1.smth and there were some production changes
17:51:00  <_dp_> on monthly callback it seems
17:53:04  <andythenorth> FIRS randomises primary production at game start
17:53:10  <andythenorth> there is no other randomness
17:53:27  <andythenorth> random production change is handled to prevent OpenTTD default behaviour ;)
17:55:23  <frosch123> _dp_: you cannot control industry grfs, which do monthly production changes
17:55:38  *** Quatroking_ is now known as Quatroking
17:55:39  <frosch123> you cannot slow the months, or you will break other stuff
17:55:54  <frosch123> you can only slow the random production change callback
17:56:12  <frosch123> and offer a new variable to grfs, so they can respond to the setting themself
17:58:57  <_dp_> I'm trying to find out where random fluctuations happen and where it's base production changes
17:59:07  <_dp_> callback is called "Monthly random production change (35) " in wiki
17:59:23  <frosch123> yes, but it is essentially a "monthly" callback
17:59:51  <frosch123> all grfs with supplies or similar use it as "monthly" and not for production change
18:01:06  <_dp_> yeah, that's what I trying to find out
18:02:54  <_dp_> interesting, newgrf can fall back to default changes but that will not take smooth_economy setting into account.
18:04:22  <frosch123> no, smooth_economy is disabled when newgrf does anything with production
18:04:52  <_dp_> how to expose a variable to newgrf?
18:06:48  <frosch123> GetGlobalVariable in newgrf.cpp
18:07:47  *** __builtin [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:07:50  <frosch123> or GetPatchVariable for stuff that is constant during a game
18:08:18  <frosch123> or reasonably constant :p
18:09:12  <_dp_> well, do settings count as reasonable constant?)
18:09:31  <_dp_> looks like...
18:09:42  <frosch123> you cannot change the values from GetPatchVariable in multiplayer for example
18:09:46  <frosch123> since you need to reload newgrf
18:10:14  <_dp_> hmm
18:10:22  <frosch123> basically, either the newgrf reads the var once on start, and then sets stuff accordingly
18:10:30  <frosch123> or it reads in whenever used
18:12:16  <_dp_> I guess it's better be in globals then
18:12:38  <frosch123> if you put it in globals you cannot make availability of industries and vehicles depend on it :p
18:13:56  <_dp_> oh
18:14:34  <_dp_> so, basically it's a choice between being able to set availability or change it during the game
18:15:01  <_dp_> at least I can imagine how latter would be useful)
18:15:08  <frosch123> there are always corner cases, but some stuff can only be set on start
18:15:34  <frosch123> either a vehicle exists, or it does not
18:15:49  <frosch123> you cannot change a setting, and suddenly all vehicles on tracks are invalid :p
18:16:21  <frosch123> anyway, if you do economy speed, it likely belongs into Global
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18:17:09  <_dp_> yeah, don't think "speed" is a good word for it though
18:17:16  <_dp_> more like volatility or smth
18:17:49  <frosch123> possibly :)
18:17:56  <andythenorth> meh, can’t make Iron Horse compile faster
18:18:05  * andythenorth experiments
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18:19:29  <_dp_> it may even be more that one setting
18:20:06  <_dp_> smooth economy influences frequency of changes, severity of changes and station rating influence over them
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18:21:11  <frosch123> that would be very smooth economy specific
18:21:19  <frosch123> i doubt any grf would care about that
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18:21:23  <frosch123> grfs have their own parameters
18:21:28  <frosch123> like effect of supplies and stuff
18:21:34  <frosch123> those settings make no sense for that
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18:22:32  <_dp_> yeah, but now I wonder how do I do all if I'm going to replace smooth economy with some other setting %)
18:22:48  <frosch123> trash smooth economy :p
18:22:50  <frosch123> it's crap
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18:26:10  <frosch123> i considered removing it completely and supplying a substitute newgrf
18:26:46  <frosch123> but since it is so crappy, making the grf would be too boring
18:28:24  <_dp_> dunno about that, I think I like it more than original one
18:29:44  <andythenorth> hmm
18:29:48  <andythenorth> rendering switches is slow :P
18:30:29  * andythenorth just took about 8 seconds off Iron Horse compile
18:30:34  <andythenorth> 8 / 38
18:30:45  <andythenorth> 20% or so faster :P
18:37:39  <_dp_> original economy only uses 60% station rating threshold
18:38:22  <_dp_> and only x2 /2 changes that are way too big for any king of competitive play
18:38:30  <_dp_> *kind
18:38:51  * andythenorth would fix it in newgrf :)
18:44:40  <andythenorth> bbl
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18:47:01  <_johannes> is YAPF able to go into a depot if it's the only way to reach a station ?
18:47:22  <frosch123> yes,
18:47:28  <frosch123> it's called "overflow depot"
18:47:38  <frosch123> it's a known track layout
18:49:17  <_dp_> I'd really like to have a configurable economy without newgrfs
18:49:41  <_dp_> like wtf, you can confugure the hell out of pathfinder but only have two pitiful bools for economy xD
18:50:03  <frosch123> i'd really remove all the disputable stuff from the game, and make everything via addons :p
18:50:13  <frosch123> +like to
18:50:32  <_dp_> frosch123, that would be an empty program :p
18:50:50  <frosch123> sounds awesome
18:50:56  <frosch123> no bugs
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18:57:03  <_dp_> I'm kinda tempted to return to my original idea and just add "stable" economy
18:57:19  <_dp_> coz it's more or less clear how to stop random changes but not how to scale them
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19:05:20  <Crisco> someone recommend a good heightmap to create a save on?
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19:13:44  <_johannes> frosch123: if a train is at A and I tell YAPF to go to A, then YAPF should return immediatelly, right?
19:14:01  <_johannes> I mean, it's not driving a complicated cycle in order to get to A again?
19:18:05  <_dp_> I wish there was an easier way to check, but looks like all goal servers use smooth economy
19:18:11  <_dp_> also coop and reddit
19:18:22  <_dp_> so if any needs trashing it's original one :p
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19:29:49  <andythenorth> meh
19:29:57  <andythenorth> are rosters in newgrfs stupid?
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19:57:14  <AdmiralKew_> i was wondering where and how you got roosters into the game
20:01:12  <andythenorth> roosters would be better
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20:32:19  <andythenorth> Iron Rooster?
20:32:20  <andythenorth>
20:32:22  <andythenorth> :P
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20:50:37  <Alberth> :)
20:50:46  <supermop> rooster roster
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20:57:06  * andythenorth is baffled by names
20:57:17  <andythenorth> I need to name Iron Horse rosters
20:57:31  <andythenorth> they were going to be shakespeare quotes about horses
20:58:41  <andythenorth> but
20:58:43  <andythenorth> “Forgiveness, horse! why do I rail on thee”
20:58:56  <andythenorth> is not easily understood as ‘African trains'
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21:03:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: easy, the african roaster of iron horse should obviously be named iron zebra
21:03:53  * andythenorth considered that :)
21:03:58  <andythenorth> but wondered if it was silly
21:04:21  <Ketsuban> The Swahili for "horse" is "farasi".
21:04:23  <andythenorth> do I use Wart Hog for the equivalent RVs?
21:05:38  <andythenorth> hmm.  Igbo for ‘horse’ is ‘inyinya’
21:07:23  <frosch123> no, you would keep the "road", and replace the "hog" with something african
21:07:32  <frosch123> hippos are said to be realted to hogs
21:07:53  <frosch123> but hippo could also work for horse
21:07:55  <frosch123> iron hippo?
21:08:11  <frosch123> sounds more like heqs though
21:08:40  * andythenorth followed a wikipedia link
21:08:43  <andythenorth> interesting
21:09:09  <andythenorth> frosch123: does this scheme scale? o_O
21:09:18  <andythenorth> Norwegian Trains
Iron ???
21:10:11  <frosch123> there are various horse like things in various areas of the world
21:10:25  <andythenorth> mostly called ‘horse’ I think :D
21:10:31  <frosch123> iron mule
21:10:46  <andythenorth> I should just call the rosters ‘African trains’, ‘UK and Ireland trains’ etc :P
21:11:00  <andythenorth> but then I get complaints they aren’t realistic eh?
21:11:04  <frosch123> iron elephant
21:11:23  <frosch123> iron bear
21:11:35  <andythenorth> so just pick a distinctive animal
21:11:36  <frosch123> iron moose
21:11:38  <andythenorth> iron moose
21:11:41  <frosch123> :p
21:11:41  <andythenorth> oh you beat me :P
21:11:49  <Alberth> elephant is more appropriate for africa, imho
21:12:02  <frosch123> i picked it for india :)
21:12:05  <andythenorth> I like the random animal idea
21:12:08  <andythenorth> appealing
21:12:15  <andythenorth> I will find animals that aren’t easily conflated :P
21:12:17  <Alberth> iron duck
21:12:43  <andythenorth> iron tuna
21:12:43  <frosch123> elephants seem to be more domestic in india than africa
21:12:55  <frosch123> i have never heard about work elephants in africa
21:13:43  <frosch123> anyway, i guess you can find a specific animal for every major geological region
21:14:27  <frosch123> likely you could as well for smaller regions, but then noone would recognise the animal :p
21:15:29  <andythenorth> road moose
21:17:02  <andythenorth> Iron Bushbaby?
21:17:03  <andythenorth>
21:17:38  <andythenorth> it’s mostly narrow gauge trains
21:18:04  <andythenorth> Iron Lion :D
21:18:26  <andythenorth>
21:19:25  <frosch123> iron rhino
21:19:29  <andythenorth>
21:20:09  <frosch123> lion and rhino are both similar to iron, both hard to pronounce together
21:20:49  <andythenorth> interesting :)
21:21:00  <andythenorth> in my accent, Iron Lion flows as two similar sounds
21:21:42  <andythenorth> Iron Giraffe?
21:22:22  <frosch123> i like silly names, so i still like zebra :)
21:23:42  <andythenorth> Iron Okapi?
21:24:28  <frosch123> also nice
21:24:41  <frosch123> would give iron alpace for eastern stuff
21:25:03  <frosch123> hmm, no, south america
21:25:24  <andythenorth> silly old zebras don’t like in west africa, where my trains are
21:25:29  * andythenorth might ignore that
21:26:08  <andythenorth> Iron Hartebeest is no good?
21:26:11  <andythenorth>
21:26:30  <_dp_> camel?
21:26:45  <andythenorth> Iron Camel
21:27:20  * andythenorth thinks Zebra
21:27:36  <andythenorth> not planning any East African trains, and all trains are the same in Africa, maybe?
21:27:37  <andythenorth> :P
21:28:11  <frosch123> hmm, for west africa it says mostly gazelle
21:28:18  <andythenorth> Iron Gazelle
21:28:35  <andythenorth> I’ll have to add some description text anyway :)
21:28:44  <andythenorth> if you want Zebra, I’m happy with that
21:29:02  <frosch123> gazelle would work with moose
21:29:14  <frosch123> and stag
21:29:18  <andythenorth> and reindeer
21:29:32  <andythenorth> and bison
21:29:39  <frosch123> that's too christmassy
21:29:52  <andythenorth> norway :)
21:29:55  <Alberth> roster is only active in december :p
21:29:59  <andythenorth> norway is always christmas
21:30:02  <frosch123> iron bison is like lion again :p
21:30:15  <andythenorth> iron elk
21:30:18  <frosch123> i wondered about iron buffalo for an us set
21:30:29  <andythenorth> buffalo makes me think of mozarella
21:30:36  <frosch123> what..
21:30:48  <andythenorth>
21:30:56  <andythenorth> “domestic Italian Water Buffalo"
21:31:04  <andythenorth>
21:31:57  <frosch123> i remember that dioxine stuff
21:35:39  * andythenorth considers making a name generator
21:36:35  <andythenorth> Iron Sandworm?
21:37:30  <Wolf01> Dune
21:38:21  <frosch123> :)
21:38:51  <frosch123> <- more crowded
21:39:21  <frosch123> "animal world map" has more results like that
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21:40:35  <frosch123> hmm i wonder why "iron python" is so funny to me
21:43:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: animal world map is winning :)
21:43:26  <andythenorth> I am not going to comment on iron python
21:43:38  <frosch123> most maps you cannot read though
21:43:57  <andythenorth> iron polar bear
21:44:10  <frosch123> not many trains there :p
21:44:15  <frosch123> iron penguin
21:44:38  <Wolf01> iron cat?
21:45:00  <Wolf01> or more likely, iron zoo
21:45:25  <andythenorth> iron penguin
21:47:02  <_dp_> Iron Tsetse
21:47:05  * andythenorth now inventing rosters just for the name
21:47:09  <andythenorth> iron wallaby
21:47:14  <andythenorth> iron tiger
21:47:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: pick Zebra or Antelope or Lion, then I can make a commit :P
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21:48:59  <andythenorth> Iron Hyena?
21:49:17  <frosch123> i don't like lion or hyena
21:49:33  <Wolf01> oh, iron wolf and shut up ;)
21:49:51  <frosch123> i wonder about the difference between antelope and gazelle
21:50:11  <Wolf01>
21:50:48  <Wolf01> "all gazelles are antelopes, but not all antelopes are gazelles" nice one
21:51:11  <frosch123> well, iron antelope then
21:53:48  <andythenorth> Iron Pika
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21:54:33  <frosch123> iron meerkat
21:56:16  <andythenorth> fits the range
21:56:27  <andythenorth>
21:56:47  <andythenorth> well, only 1000 miles wrong :)
21:56:48  <frosch123> it's the standard cute animal :)
21:57:21  <frosch123> anyway, western africa: go for antilopes
21:57:44  <frosch123> they work well with moose, and buffalo or even mule
21:58:11  <frosch123> i guess don't pick too small animals :p
21:58:23  <frosch123> nor the really big ones
21:58:23  <andythenorth> Iron Bongo
21:58:29  <Wolf01> it's for a passenger service set?
21:58:53  <andythenorth> mostly freight
21:58:55  <Wolf01> because antelope doesn't fit well for a long heavy goods train
21:59:53  <andythenorth> Iron Gorilla?
22:01:54  <frosch123> gorillas don't run
22:02:51  <frosch123> i don't think it needs to be a strong animal
22:03:31  <frosch123> engines are named crocodile, piggy or duck
22:03:45  <andythenorth> Iron Bushbuck
22:03:48  <andythenorth>
22:03:51  <andythenorth> kind of antelope
22:03:57  <andythenorth> sounds suitable for tropic
22:04:01  <andythenorth> not too big or too small
22:04:35  <andythenorth> map range is super-realistic w.r.t to the trains used
22:07:55  <andythenorth> Iron Bikeshedding? :D
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22:16:15  <_dp_> Iron Badger
22:17:21  <Wolf01>
22:19:33  <andythenorth> I can have Iron Badger for UK?
22:25:29  <Eddi|zuHause> can they have a running sound of "badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom"?
22:25:44  <andythenorth> ha ha
22:25:49  * andythenorth must to bed
22:25:57  <andythenorth> bye and thanks
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