Log for #openttd on 27th February 2016:
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00:27:29  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
00:27:31  <drac_boy> hi
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00:32:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:35:24  <drac_boy> what would you had called these fictional trains that often are squashed shorter than they normally would had in reality? I'm thinking 'toon' but just had to ask tho
00:35:29  <drac_boy> this is an example of what I meant
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00:38:12  <sim-al2> wow 4 wheels
00:42:06  <drac_boy> heh well theres also these from the same company too
00:42:33  <drac_boy> lkinda fun way to have a long-looking train in short space :) .. just wonder if classify it as 'toon' or rather some other word :)
00:43:27  <sim-al2> They'd be nice for small radius track (although 4 wheels might mess than up)
00:43:45  <drac_boy> well radius wouldn't really matter, its the joiners you have to be mindful about
00:44:23  <drac_boy> but two piece of flex track in oval shape...well....that is an easy way to really tight with the joiners only being on the short straightway sections :)
00:45:25  <drac_boy> mind you even N scale has a similar thing which is very popular in japan but can be found in a few outsider suppliers too ... one moment I'll get it for you
00:47:13  <drac_boy> name is Bandai (not sure of japanese spelling) and heres one collection with a standard-sized train sneaking in the back to give you an idea
00:47:21  <drac_boy> and yep theres even some toonish container wagons too :)
00:47:51  <drac_boy> this gives you an idea why its popular in japan, tight curves look less tight with a Bandai train ;)
00:48:38  <drac_boy> homemade modifications is quite easy as its basically only two chassis for 100+ different products (powered and unpowered) .. just a few special ones such as the steam locomotive have non-standard chassis tho
00:48:59  <sim-al2> Yeah, tight radius curves make landscaping with regular cars rather interesting
00:49:30  <drac_boy> why do I know this - because I've actually looked into buying a bunch of these trains from an english-friendly japan webstore someday, just not yet tho :)
00:50:45  <drac_boy> btw heres one of these layouts that would be almost a total failure with normal american sized wagons heh
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00:51:56  <sim-al2> Hmm, locomotives look about normal scale, those wagons are defintely short though :D
00:53:00  <drac_boy> ah yeah..still look at that express trainset being able to fit into the shed track almost :P
00:54:03  <drac_boy> one small footnote if you would: if you want a portable N scale layout in small space, don't bother with kato unitrak...go with tomix instead
00:54:27  <drac_boy> kato basically only have broad radius for most things but tomix has tracks and even some turnouts with very short radius to suit the smaller trains
00:54:38  <drac_boy> kato is american-ish which isn't a surprise
00:55:40  <drac_boy> heres a random example if you want
00:56:50  <sim-al2> Wow, that little piece is 30* arc
00:58:46  <sim-al2> Usually pretty, well, unrealistic... but not always:
00:59:45  <drac_boy> well scale trains always have something unrealistic :P
00:59:57  <drac_boy> not to mention the "hand of god" or other jokes around that kind of thing
01:04:11  <sim-al2> I suggest you look at about 5:00 in that video too
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01:19:24  <drac_boy> so what're you doing atm anyhow?
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01:26:46  <sim-al2> drac_boy:
01:34:25  <ST2> at 3:20 (must be am
01:34:40  <ST2> PM, I mean ^^
01:35:49  <ST2> sim-al2 drives a chinese/japonese/korean train and where those things are wrong
01:36:27  <drac_boy> is that bve?
01:36:33  <sim-al2> Yeah, BVE5
01:36:48  <drac_boy> tried some bve or something a long time ago, funny that it still seem a bit familiar
01:37:01  <drac_boy> I knew it looked too chunky to be msts anyway :)
01:37:28  <sim-al2> TBH, most of the routes look better than anything in MSTS before like 2007
01:38:20  <sim-al2> And that's for the converted routes, nevermind the newer ones
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06:24:32  <andythenorth> o/
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08:16:01  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
08:16:46  <Alberth> moin andy
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09:10:27  <_johannes> hello
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10:14:18  <Alberth> o/
10:14:40  <frosch123> moi
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10:23:36  <Wolf01> o/
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10:25:19  <andythenorth> if I add the water tanker to this, it’s 1.5 tiles long
10:25:21  <andythenorth> too much?
10:26:55  <Wolf01> did you manage to articulate it properly?
10:27:03  <Alberth> would be quite unique, at least
10:27:39  <andythenorth> Wolf01: yeah, it’s articulated ok
10:27:46  <andythenorth> not perfect, but good enough
10:29:03  <frosch123> whats the thing in the front?
10:29:29  <Alberth> /me guesses watertank
10:32:03  <andythenorth> watertank
10:32:07  <andythenorth> and more water behind
10:32:43  <Wolf01> water gets depleted in no time, more is better
10:34:13  <Wolf01> nice, it seem you even run that thing backwards
10:36:28  <andythenorth> yup
10:36:44  * andythenorth implements that in IH
10:41:10  <andythenorth> bah
10:41:14  <andythenorth> harder than I thought
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10:47:43  <andythenorth> or not
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10:57:59  <andythenorth>
10:58:58  <Wolf01> wow, nice
10:59:21  <Wolf01> does it bend in the middle of the tank?
11:00:12  <Wolf01> maybe in the point where is the notch just right the black part
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11:03:48  <andythenorth> it is 4 parts
11:05:22  <Alberth> +1
11:05:54  <Wolf01> +2
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11:06:55  <AdmiralKewl> sexy
11:08:32  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe needs a shorter scale
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11:12:42  <andythenorth> two of them make 3 tiles
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11:14:07  <andythenorth> I think it’s too long tbh
11:14:55  <AdmiralKewl> super long trans-continental trains maybe?
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11:16:24  <andythenorth> I need to scope a random switch to first part of an articulated vehicle
11:17:08  <andythenorth> i.e. I want same random bits for all articulated parts
11:17:41  <andythenorth> I have to count?
11:21:53  <Alberth> 1, 2, many
11:22:12  <andythenorth> I have to count :P
11:22:24  <andythenorth> my code says I encountered this before
11:23:03  <Alberth> it also tells you the solution?  that would really nice of it
11:23:07  <Alberth> +be
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11:23:35  <Eddi|zuHause> position in vehid chain % total length
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11:49:51  * andythenorth solved
12:06:25  <frosch123> i think we have a variable "position in articulated vehicle"
12:07:44  <andythenorth> I recall talking about it
12:08:22  <andythenorth> my IDs are sequential, incremeing by 1 from lead part, and so I just solved it in the compile
12:16:12  <andythenorth> unusual
12:16:24  <andythenorth> the depot view has merged an engine and a freight car
12:16:31  <andythenorth> and I can’t separate them at all
12:18:53  <andythenorth> ID collision :D
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12:24:19  <smint> any openttd developer here ?
12:25:38  <Alberth> just ask the question usually works better
12:26:52  <Alberth> so much for sequential IDs, andy :)
12:28:04  <andythenorth> coder error :)
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12:29:59  <smint> Ah ok. here it goes then. I'm looking for a simplest way how to use the in game events for generating messages that would be sent (in a predefined format) to a web location via json or with other data type. That would require to probably script some events like train Y has arrived, departed from station X , loaded 10 persons, unloaded 20 persons and so on
12:30:40  <Wolf01> mmmh, why nobody told me that translating before drawing would simplify A LOT the things?
12:30:40  <smint> I would like to create a super dense scenario that would help me simulate real traffic and populate our DB with real time data for analysis
12:31:47  <smint> Any ideas ?
12:31:54  <Alberth> that's a lot of detail
12:32:37  <smint> I could have a external app programmed ancapsulating it into right format but I need to get it out of ttd
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12:33:33  <Alberth> there is an admin port thing, but afaik it's more oriented towards higher level monitoring
12:34:10  <Alberth> my guess is that "simplest" would be printf() in the source code at the right spot
12:35:01  <Alberth> not sure it would be useful, it's a lot of data
12:35:55  <smint> I need a lot of data generated to simulate real life environment - 1000 events per second roughly
12:36:19  <smint> I was thinking if any of the api's have a way to tap into this event handlers
12:37:09  <Alberth> afaik external connections don't go down to train arrivals and cargo movements
12:37:33  <Alberth> even Squirrel scripts don't work at that level
12:37:45  <Alberth> ie the AI and game scripts
12:38:36  <Alberth> you can eg ask for cumulative cargo deliveries since the last time you queried, but that's the lowest I know
12:39:04  <Alberth> but that API doesn't get outside
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12:40:24  <smint> too bad really - i thought there might be something out there that woulc allow such external monitoring
12:40:39  <Alberth> openttd itself also doesn't have a reason to do so, it doesn't add to game play, and it needs its CPU power for running trains
12:41:24  <smint> I know it is way beyond orignal intentions ... I want to use it as a simulator rather than a game
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12:42:52  <Alberth> you're not the first to try that :)
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12:43:19  <smint> you know anyone that succeeded ? :)
12:43:49  <Alberth> for some value of "success", sure they have :p
12:44:20  <Alberth> but you're one of the first to want generating stuff for outside the engine, at least at this level of detail
12:44:58  <Alberth> I'd start with a few simple "printf" calls to generate a data stream, and go from there
12:45:55  <smint> perhaps that is not such bad idea
12:46:01  <smint> for starters
12:46:18  <smint> Thanks for your help
12:46:34  <Alberth> yw
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12:52:09  <andythenorth> drawing trains is fun
12:52:16  * andythenorth should have made a train set years ago
12:56:13  <Alberth> :)
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14:15:30  <_johannes> once you've started a game, and later think that you'd like to enable some newgrf trains, is it somehow possible to make them available?
14:16:42  <Alberth> no
14:17:01  <_johannes> :ÂŽ-(
14:17:30  <_johannes> I have a very old map, and now I really miss some new trains on it
14:17:52  <_johannes> can't it be easily done by binary hacking?
14:18:06  <_johannes> or writing a small converter?
14:18:08  <Alberth> easily, no
14:18:23  <andythenorth> YOU CAN ENABLE SOME TOOLS!!
14:18:25  <andythenorth> oops
14:18:26  <andythenorth> caps
14:18:36  <Alberth> newgrf and other game data is very much intertwined
14:18:37  <_johannes> just need trains :)
14:18:49  <Wolf01> developer tools + resetengines, but don't report problems
14:19:14  <_johannes> what kind of problems are expectable?
14:19:24  <Wolf01> *everything*
14:19:42  <_johannes> :P
14:19:48  <Alberth> anything between no problem, a crash, to seemingly working until xx years later something wonky happens
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14:20:01  <Wolf01> usually it's like when you are sitting on a chair and somebody takes it
14:22:14  <Alberth> data gets spread to everywhere, it's not just adding a few more entries in a table
14:23:17  <_johannes> I can not imagine what kind of data you're talking about...
14:26:48  <_johannes> a different question: does sending a train into the depot cost money?
14:27:03  <_johannes> i.e. do I pair for the people repairing the train and making it more reliable?
14:27:15  <Alberth> doesn't cost money
14:27:17  <Alberth> only time
14:27:39  <Alberth> unless you have an autoreplace or autorenew set for it :p
14:27:46  <_johannes> i.e. there are no disadvantages if I keep a train all day long in a depot?
14:28:06  <_johannes> you mean if it stands there 20 years, it gets renewed without a good reason?
14:28:11  <Alberth> hmm, maybe you pay running cost
14:28:53  <_johannes> no, I tested it, it does not cost money
14:29:07  <_johannes> the reliability goes down, but it goes up if the train leaves again
14:29:38  <Alberth> autorenew may only work when you enter the depot, or if you press some button on the depot, but not sure
14:30:08  <Alberth> I tend to leave the trains driving around :)
14:30:44  <_johannes> I thought about shunting trains... they would, most of their time, wait in a depot
14:30:52  <_johannes> and as it seems, it does not harm too much
14:30:53  <Alberth> running cost may be controlled by newgrf iirc, so different sets may have different ideas about it
14:31:41  <Alberth> they age, mostly, which influences rating of a serviced town a bit
14:32:15  <_johannes> you mean passengers dislike it if I send old trains to their stations?
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14:33:42  <drac_boy> hi
14:33:50  <_johannes> hi
14:33:50  <drac_boy> sorry had some issues last night, hope didn't miss anything major :->
14:33:58  <drac_boy> hows you johannes?
14:34:12  <_johannes> I'm fine, how're you?
14:34:35  <drac_boy> doing ok for now, just going between online and re working on some plastics a bit
14:34:38  <drac_boy> not much else for today yet
14:35:24  <Alberth> _johannes:   second entry
14:37:36  <_johannes> so it is only relevant if the train's age is less than 3?
14:37:43  <_johannes> my most trains are way older...
14:37:50  <drac_boy> of course I guess a porsche carrera has nothing to do with the game but ah well :->
14:40:12  <Alberth> maybe use the supercars newgrf? :)
14:44:10  <andythenorth> drac_boy: you did miss quite a lot
14:44:16  <andythenorth> it was sad that you couldn’t be here
14:44:39  <drac_boy> alberth heh guess that maybe would be indeed funny after all. a car with only room for 3 passengers
14:45:35  <Alberth> is very nice 1st class transport :)
14:45:48  <Alberth> I think in RL it might even work :)
14:46:04  <Alberth> bit costly though :)
14:46:11  <drac_boy> well RL at least has the concept of taxi services :p
14:48:35  <Alberth> RL people are too lazy :)
14:49:04  <drac_boy> or you always can go to a few countries (I recall at least italy and united arab) for an example of super cars being used as police cruisers
14:49:23  <drac_boy> heh
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14:51:47  <andythenorth> this
14:51:55  <andythenorth> outperforms this in RL
14:51:59  <andythenorth> which looks odd in game
14:52:12  <andythenorth> because “bigger = stronger”
14:53:37  <Alberth> different technologies
14:54:25  <Alberth> if people complain, you can always blame reality :p
14:55:00  * andythenorth is making a problem out of nothing :)
14:55:10  <andythenorth> current Iron Horse already does this multiple times
14:55:17  <Alberth> well, it should have some niche usage
14:58:57  <drac_boy> alberth heh well 1937 and 1973 dates are very far apart even for the game? even then I probably would had been keeping the G17 for as long as their profits were doing nice but thats me :)
14:59:11  <andythenorth>
14:59:40  <andythenorth> the steam loco has more tractive effort, the diesel is faster and has more HP
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14:59:59  <Alberth> sounds good
15:00:22  <andythenorth> in RL the steam engine had many wheels to spread weight
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15:00:31  <andythenorth> they rebuilt the track for the diesels to take more weight
15:00:38  <andythenorth> that detail I *do not* want in game :P
15:00:54  <drac_boy> no A1A trucks? ;)
15:02:10  <drac_boy> but heh yeah I don't think rail weight should be a factor in the game .. speed limits seem more than reasonable enough infill for now
15:06:33  <andythenorth> maybe that diesel should be longer
15:15:03  <drac_boy> I think so, two of them shouldn't be still looking shorter than the G16
15:15:27  <andythenorth> two of them are same length
15:15:55  <drac_boy> 48ft for G16 vs 34ft or 68ft for 91
15:16:16  <drac_boy> just my thought anyway
15:16:56  <drac_boy> always could insert a few pixels between the radiator and cab and see how that works
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15:18:15  <andythenorth> I think I leave it
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15:47:02  <drac_boy> oh almost forgot, there any particular reasonable limit on rail vehicle size and/or length?
15:47:22  <drac_boy> (I recall the size was somewhat capped to avoid tunnel/bridge issues if thats right)
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15:50:53  <andythenorth> pikka has double-height pax cars that don’t clip in tunnels afaict
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15:59:38  <drac_boy> hmm which grf?
16:00:27  <Alberth> perhaps pineapple?
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16:08:05  <andythenorth> NARS 2
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16:27:33  <drac_boy> going make some lunch now but thanks anyhow. guess will see what happens to the sprites later
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16:33:02  <_johannes> is it possible to get a tile with TRACKDIR_BEGIN in IterateTiles ? that probably should not happen, right?
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16:34:21  <_johannes> ah nvm, it's a memory bug
16:34:53  <Eddi|zuHause> TRACKDIR_BEGIN is just another name for one of the trackdirs, right?
16:36:21  <_johannes> it seems to be only used for iterating over them
16:36:33  <_johannes> it's the first one
16:39:52  <Alberth> TRACKDIR_BEGIN    =  0   <-- Doesn't look like a valid track :)
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17:02:08  <_johannes> can the costs of Yapf be negative?
17:02:18  <_johannes> I think I just got this as an output...
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17:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause> no, pathfinder costs can never be negative
17:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you get endless loops that way
17:04:29  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: good point, since it's an A*, but might there be some post-computations on the nodes that modify their costs?
17:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> what would that do?
17:05:18  <_johannes> hmm don't know, though I don'T see such computations
17:09:37  <Monkey_> why do we not have volcanos in this game?
17:10:30  <Monkey_> it could be an industry, geothermal energy :P
17:11:07  <frosch123> there was once
17:11:15  <frosch123> ottd up to 0.6 had seismic activity
17:11:17  <Monkey_> well uranium making batteries work too i suppose in yeti :D
17:11:29  <Monkey_> what happened to have it removed?
17:12:21  <frosch123> the ai was replaced with a better one
17:12:59  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: ok, I just read a comment saying negative costs are allowed for the start tile :)
17:13:34  <Monkey_> and volcanos were never coded back in i assume
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17:15:37  <Alberth> nobody coded an AI that did random terraforming :)
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18:08:45  * andythenorth such box cars
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18:14:42  <andythenorth> come back snail
18:14:44  <andythenorth> I have questions
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18:32:37  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: that should probably read "you can have negative weights for tiles that you can never enter". which basically still amounts to "you cannot have negative weights"
18:33:25  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's probably the idea... the start node will never be entered
18:33:36  <_johannes> I still wonder why 0 does not suffice for the start node
18:33:46  <_johannes> but there's probably a good reason
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18:34:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you should still make sure that all weights are >0
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18:39:06  <_johannes> Eddi|zuHause: all other nodes I've tested have weights > 0
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20:14:26  <andythenorth> bye
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23:39:58  <drac_boy> hi
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23:46:03  <sim-al2> I found the real-world equivalent of a B-train shorty:
23:48:03  <drac_boy> or just about any ore cars in north america too?
23:48:09  <drac_boy> not so shorty locomotives tho but heh
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23:52:25  <drac_boy> oh yeah almost forgot to tell you, I don't recall where I saw it but theres one small usa company that really takes the truck off eg a SD70M and literally make it into a little 3-axle locomotive by itself
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23:52:34  <drac_boy> bit of a strange one to look at heh
23:54:51  <drac_boy> ah wait found it again,
23:55:10  <drac_boy> even seem they chopped some of the body pieces off something else too
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