Log for #openttd on 28th February 2016:
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00:02:22  <drac_boy> so, what're you doing? more bve or something else by now
00:07:01  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:14:05  <sim-al2> Oh just dinner
00:18:25  <sim-al2> drac_boy: It appears to be an older EMD bogie, the cab could be any EMD switcher design, and the other parts seem to be EMD also
00:19:22  <sim-al2> It looks well-built, even with a rather unusual frame design
00:21:18  <sim-al2> They call it the TP56. 375 hp, 80 tons
00:22:26  <drac_boy> yeah, probably the only time I've seen a rigid chassis locomotive in usa (outside the very old industrial davenport etc that is)
00:22:42  <sim-al2> 56000-70000 lbs (249 kN to 311 kN) TE
00:24:30  <drac_boy> which of about small, this seem to be a rather common small diesel unit to model .. just look up any stores that does S scale or colorado-biased HO/N and you'll likely always find this
00:25:10  <sim-al2> There's been a few, but B-B has always been preferred, probably since they will handle tighter curves, always good when you are mass producing a design
00:25:18  <drac_boy> talk about just a few units in real life turning out to be several hundreds in the modeller's world (but then again same can be said for Lionel's S2 turbine locomotive too)
00:26:12  <drac_boy> about tighter curves, can you believe that sometimes gave steam a little bit of a problem? heh
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00:27:19  <sim-al2> Yeah, the Shays were favored among the logging and mine railroads, since regular designs had trouble
00:27:49  <sim-al2> There were other geared locomotives too, like the Climax
00:27:58  <drac_boy> I recall one article (don't recall which city) about a particular line that was normally assigned between two locomotives to work it and crews often prefer the shorter one pointing west but even then one curve always had the cab roof grinding into the tender frame and sometimes snapped past with a big TWACK
00:28:17  <drac_boy> talk about not wanting to have your hand close to that roof!
00:28:24  <sim-al2> Hmmm, that doesn't sound safe...
00:28:41  <drac_boy> well this was during the 1930-1940's period so some things 'just were normal'
00:29:51  <sim-al2> Of course big companies used to get away with a lot more, but that sounds like a great way to derail the tender
00:30:41  <drac_boy> well as long as the locomotive was pointing in the right direction it kept doing that curve countless times without any hiccup...but yeah I don't know who thought to leave such a route there
00:31:28  <sim-al2> I suppose just having the slack pulled out was enough, sounds like the curve needed to be eased a bit..
00:31:54  <drac_boy> there is one other railroad where tight curvations just was the normal so baldwin actually built the locomotive to handle it even if it did look drunkly weird doing moment
00:33:31  <sim-al2> Apparently even 8 coupled could work on tight curves, if designed correctly
00:33:47  <sim-al2> There were a lot of 2-8-2s built
00:37:07  <drac_boy> that sums up its story and,file=14682,filename=Uintah_50e.jpg shows what looks like a painfully sharp curve to any 'normal' locomotive
00:37:27  <drac_boy> the line is shared by shay locomotive on other schedules too interestingly enough
00:38:56  <drac_boy> I'm not sure where this photo is online now but baldwin even took a photo showing the boiler almost completely hovering mid-air just to demonstrate how much the front chassis could swing without harm :->
00:39:56  <sim-al2> Sixty-six degrees!
00:40:00  <sim-al2> Holy crap
00:40:36  <drac_boy> yeah you don't need to know the number to see that the curve in the jpg is really tight :->
00:40:41  <sim-al2> A sharp mainline curve would be around 12 degrees
00:41:09  <sim-al2> 26.5 meter radius
00:41:19  <sim-al2> That would be tight even for a tram
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00:44:26  <drac_boy> btw slight related but before the interurban bust started taking hold in late 30's or post-war there were actually a few freight companies that had slight shorty boxcars with very little underriggings (and the usual "NOT FOR INTERCHANGE" labels) due to operating through the curb curves that would had hung up the normal boxcars
00:45:01  <drac_boy> the trucks could swing freely, don't doubt that there was nothing stopping one from doing 360 degree
00:45:50  <sim-al2> Yeah, the interurban cars seem to have special coupler mountings and other such features
00:47:24  <sim-al2> Looking through the old books on Google Books and, the interurban cars were in many ways much more advanced than mainlines of the time
00:48:39  <sim-al2> Electro-pnuematic brake controls, graduated release brakes, automatic traction controllers
00:48:50  <drac_boy> btw some of the systems even had curved ends almost like the 1950's road trailers had .. made sense considering the curves
00:49:13  <drac_boy>
00:49:39  <drac_boy> and look at that coupler..wouldn't be surprised if it was a tram-style link bar
00:49:57  <sim-al2> I suppose that added just a little more capacity, always nice since length is constrained
00:50:43  <drac_boy> yeah sometimes the ex-interurban wagons reassigned to mainline service were always too noticeable from their shorter chassis or other visible things
00:51:04  <drac_boy> same happened to two particular interurban coaches that ended up on BC passenger service, their narrow width were a bit funny
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00:51:50  <drac_boy> and btw you're right, even some electric locomotives pretty much started with things borrowed from trolleys too
00:52:35  <drac_boy> there was someone who got a ride on a GG1 and said he was laughing so much when it moved off for the first time because it sounded exactly like a trolley including the clang-clang noise
00:52:56  <sim-al2> Locomotives seemed to stay with manual-advance control long after the trams and interurbans went to automatic-advance
00:53:53  <sim-al2> Yeah, not too much going, I think those locomotives used field-weakening to start since they were straight AC
00:54:56  <drac_boy> by any chance would this also have to do with the transition controllers on some earlier diesel locomotives too?
00:54:59  <sim-al2> But that imposed a time limitation just like a resistance-controlled machine would face, as overheating could happen
00:55:49  <sim-al2> No, the transition on the diesels was needed because the generators had voltage vs current limitations
00:56:31  <sim-al2> Particularly a maximum voltage that could be sustained, because a high current output was needed at low speeds
00:57:00  <sim-al2> But as speed increases, the voltage couldn't increased further
00:58:02  <sim-al2> So the motors would be in a series-parallel configuration (I believe the bogies would be in series, with the motors of each bogie in parallel)
00:58:02  <drac_boy> well I recall a few examples where the transition refused to work leaving the locomotive stuck with only the lower range. got to love that?
00:59:00  <drac_boy> even c&nw once had one geep that wouldn't make transition so after limping into another station another geep was added but ... umm ops nope it doesn't want to either so the whole train basically kept going at only 35mph the rest of the way
00:59:27  <sim-al2> And transition would allow the motors to be placed in parallel, where the limitations of the generator were less of a problem at high speed
00:59:44  <drac_boy> and about curves, heres another interurban freight route and umm that does look sharp for some normal wagons
01:00:04  <sim-al2> Hmm yeah, I believe output to the traction motors will fall if the locomotive can't make transition
01:00:27  <sim-al2> (if speed increases, like other locomotives pulling)
01:01:25  <sim-al2> Alternator equipped units work differently, the motors are usually always in parallel, but the alternator can change it's internal connections, to allow near constant-power over the speed range
01:02:29  <sim-al2> I believe that modern GE units don't even need that anymore, rather neat
01:03:25  <sim-al2> Most of the GM locomotives after the FT had automatic tranisition, but various early units had a selector handle in the cab to control non-equipped units
01:04:06  <drac_boy> heh did you want to know why firemens were still busy in the FT's? manual radiator shutters among a few other things that later were automated
01:04:21  <drac_boy> so yeah on mountain routes sometimes one could be busy with the shutters a few many times per trip
01:06:26  <sim-al2> If manual transition was required, around 25 mph (depending on motor amperage) the engineer would throttle down part way, and then operate the handle
01:13:25  <sim-al2> Huh, yeah, the FT manual suggests adjusting the shutters, and even the fan clutches, depending on outside temperature
01:14:02  <sim-al2> But even the F3 has automatic controller of the shutters, and actually says not to mess with them
01:19:37  <drac_boy> one half-related thing again sim-a12...did you know that a few railroads that ran 3+ A units all facing forward together were sometimes called "an elephant lashup" or that sort of effect?
01:19:59  <drac_boy> kinda made sense when you compare it to real elephants after all, funny how the term came to be tho
01:20:54  <sim-al2> Seems to be a railfan name, if you start looking at some sites people get really nasty about terminology
01:22:00  <sim-al2> It seems that as the cab units aged, they were taken out of matched sets and run as whatever was convenient
01:22:04  <drac_boy> one thing for sure tho, an alco with long snout? why its an alligator, nothing else to say :)
01:22:40  <drac_boy> you can see why they called them that
01:23:18  <drac_boy> I'm guessing they didn't need all the engine body space so they simply used a longer low hood design instead
01:25:07  <drac_boy> about railfan names, uk seem very famous for that with both old and new units
01:25:18  <sim-al2> I'm not sure if it's the case here, but a number of Santa Fe and Union Pacific units had extended nose that houses Locotrol or other extra equipment
01:25:30  <drac_boy> mind you some locomotives did have a slight more official nicknames tho such as the Crab due to its high-mounted pistons
01:26:07  <drac_boy> well the alco was designed this way for all railroads so its nothing specific to up/sp in that case
01:29:22  <sim-al2> it looks almost like the frame was extended, possibly for extra fuel-tank capacity and room for the longer bogies, but with almost the same upper portion as the RS-11:
01:29:49  <sim-al2> And the nose lengthed to match
01:30:27  <drac_boy> actually I think I believe there were at least one or two emd units that were basically new unit mounted onto previous-generation chassis .. basically a pre-production sort of thing
01:30:56  <drac_boy> theres one IC unit that looks like a SD40 but its chassis is a bit short leaving almost no rear platform (hood nearly bumps right up to buffer line)
01:33:07  <sim-al2> There was some weirdness going on at EMD around that time, frame lengths were increased from SD40 family to SD40-2 family, but a few units had different hood lengths, resulting in small or large end platforms
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01:34:24  <drac_boy> ah found it .. IC 6071 which was the first SD40-2 by sitting on a SD35 chassis instead
01:35:51  <drac_boy> hm and checking wikipedia just for thoughts it seem to suggest SD40-2 was about 68ft while the SD35 was about 60ft
01:36:01  <drac_boy> thats six feet somewhere else :)
01:36:30  <drac_boy> the rear platform looks like 2 feet knocked but I dunno, hard to really tell from angled photos
01:36:37  <sim-al2> Also, the SD40A, built with a SDP45 frame for a larger fuel tanl, and the Erie Lackawanna's SD45s, basically an SDP45 without the boiler, again for larger fuel tank
01:37:36  <drac_boy> btw SD35 photo reminds me why I for some reason particularly like Southern units .. they had the thing for preferring to run their diesels long-hood forward many of the times
01:38:00  <drac_boy>
01:38:13  <sim-al2> Another fun one: The SDL39, basically a minimum weight unit for the Milwaukee's branch lines, which were not in good shape by then:
01:38:21  <drac_boy> talk about not wanting to be in the way of THAT
01:39:17  <drac_boy> heh milwaukee probably bankrupted themself in a sad way me think, first ripping the electrics (even although the poles were not too bad yet) and the frequent maintenance deferrals
01:40:25  <sim-al2> Yeah, the management was poor during the 70's, according to rumor that wanted the railroad sold to BN, but couldn't do it above board
01:44:55  <drac_boy> there was also the ICC "wedge" at the up-ri attempt too, by then rock island was putting off too much maintenance-wise that up decided to walk away
01:50:06  <drac_boy> oh and completely unrelated but theres always this little goofup (santa fe moved a little too fast, probably best idea to merger first then repaint second not the other way around!)
01:51:59  <sim-al2> Yeah, a good number of SP and SF units were painted that way, the letters being placed in way convenient to paint the other two letters for the merged railway
01:52:49  <sim-al2> One of the jokes i've seen: Shouldn't Paint So Fast
01:53:35  <drac_boy> heh heh
01:54:25  <drac_boy> also I recall at least one or more of these units also had an experiment with repowering that wasn't so reliable at the end. was nicknamed Popsicle in some effect
01:54:37  <drac_boy> I think it was a foreign engine
01:55:58  <sim-al2> Hmm, there was a Sulzer experiment, but the engine had major reliability problems
01:56:25  <drac_boy> yeah I believe that was the one
01:56:41  <drac_boy> talk about sulzer+SF in one package .. weird eh
01:57:45  <sim-al2> Sulzer's older designs worked fairly well in locomotives, comprising a good size of the British diesel fleet and being exported all over the world, but the particular engines used in the SF locomotives had problems with cyclical operation
01:58:14  <drac_boy> ah btw there is something else that did last well for a while tho
01:58:34  <drac_boy> strange looking but ehh, they apparently worked (and better visibility in both directions too which was the main task after all)
01:58:47  <drac_boy> not surprisingly even c&nw did the same to their commuter units too
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02:00:19  <sim-al2> The CF7 was a pretty major rebuild, since the body of the F-units was structural, as opposed to the frame of the road-switchers
02:01:28  <drac_boy> at least most of the cost-saving came from just keeping the chassis other than for new floor I believe
02:01:50  <sim-al2> According to comments here, the high temperatures experienced in tunnels might have been the problem for the Sulzer units here, as burnt valves and cylinder damage were experienced:
02:02:35  <sim-al2> The A25 engine was used in lots and lots of boats though
02:03:10  <drac_boy> actually santa fe tried converting their alco PA (yes...I know...) to emd engines but these had some overheating issues so they were left derated below the original alco figures which mooted the project coming to a complete halt as it probably wasn't exactly practical
02:03:29  <sim-al2> I think up to the 70's or 80's, railroads could get tax credits on rebuilds too, resulting in quite a few fun Santa Fe rebuilds
02:04:07  <drac_boy> you could tell these un-alco PA's apart due to their extra exhaust panels on the roof (almost a little like the budd rdc but not as thick)
02:04:27  <sim-al2> Too bad the 244 had so many problems
02:05:20  <drac_boy> btw there is one other rebuild that didn't go anywhere but the lone example lasted a very long time crazy enough, and guess what its nickname was? BEEP!
02:05:31  <drac_boy> :->
02:06:44  <sim-al2> Apparently the Sulzers were used because Morrison Knudsen wanted a supplier that wasn't GE:
02:08:05  <sim-al2> MK seemed to have a bit of trouble with engines, they also used quite a few Catapillar engines, but the big ones tended to blow up
02:08:46  <sim-al2> Hmm, apparently the Beep is now in a museum in Barstow
02:14:18  <drac_boy> btw not exactly a normal rebuild kind of thing but why does this seem like a geep with some extra rooftop protection panels welded on
02:14:53  <drac_boy> as I recall some if not all were for some kind of circular coal railroad
02:15:07  <drac_boy> (or am I thinking of a different white electric unit)
02:16:08  <sim-al2> That's an electric locomotive
02:16:51  <sim-al2> Probably a different one, the GE E60C's were mostly white or silver painted, and found on dedicated railways
02:18:05  <sim-al2> The Black Mesa and Lake Powell railroad, and possibly the Navajo Mine Railroad still E60s
02:18:12  <drac_boy> oh yeah the E60C is what I was thinking re coal ... but it doesn't look like an ex-diesel body tho
02:18:51  <sim-al2> That EMD electric was one of two prototypes for Conrail, to replace ageing types recieved from the Penn Central
02:19:47  <drac_boy> oh I almost forget, theres the GF6C which didn't last too long due to questionable traffics sadly :-/
02:19:50  <sim-al2> In the end, Conrail choose to buy diesels, and removed the electrification of lines that it owned
02:21:17  <sim-al2> NdeM, the Mexican national railroad, bought a bunch of E60s also, but most were never even used because the electrification project was halted when the railroad was privatized
02:21:49  <drac_boy> well one of the problem I believe was that where the blue/black E44 were still hauling freights for example .. amtrak was going to keep asking ever-higher rates for the corridor routings ... so conrail basically just simply moved out of the corridor which meant no wires
02:23:23  <sim-al2> Yeah, the E44s were there and had been well used, but there were even older types, like the E33C and the various other locomotives that belonged to the New Haven and the PC
02:23:52  <drac_boy> heres to color photo of conrail freight on amtrak's tracks
02:23:57  <sim-al2> I.E. the New Haven's EP5s, which were breaking down by that time
02:24:34  <drac_boy> geeze only a few months ago I actually read a story about the unlucky engineer who broke his EP5 unit three separate times!
02:25:35  <drac_boy> one was due to hitting a deer which broke the rigid brake pipe in the pilot so the train was dead till they bypassed the loco brakes and hauled train in with a few spare diesel units
02:26:30  <drac_boy> another one the same EP5 was a trailing unit ... when he looked back on another curve as usual he noticed it was on fire but soon this turned out to be only the pantograph itself so after power was killed the smoke eventually went away and he continued the train without any power from the EP5
02:27:02  <drac_boy> forgot what the third one was but it equally brought the train to a complete halt :-s ... he said that he was so happy when that one EP5 unit was finally left at the shed track for good
02:27:58  <drac_boy> also one of the problem with the worn-down EP5's at that time was that also only one pantograph was mounted instead of the usual two .. so icy wires could be very touchy
02:28:53  <drac_boy> kinda a funny if not sad contrast to the early days of NH where the EP5 was basically the "jet" locomotive
02:28:54  <sim-al2> Yeah, the lack of mainteance was a big problem on the New Haven, their MU fleet was equally ragtag
02:31:41  <drac_boy> lack of maintenance = thats why eventually the FL9's kept throwing out smoke inside grand central terminal .. just as well because the 3rd rail shoes were becoming unuseable
02:32:15  <drac_boy> initial design basically was supposed to have it idle/shut (not sure which) its diesel engine and use 3rd power alone in the station zone
02:34:52  <sim-al2> I think idle, as some components, need power from the aux gen, and I don't think electric air compressors were included
02:35:26  <sim-al2> EMDs for the most part have engine-driven air compressors
02:36:41  <sim-al2> I think the AC rebuilds had the gear to run entirely on third-rail power, but those were very unreliable and scrapped after a few years
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02:47:21  <drac_boy> going sleep soon here so goodnight, and seem we talked quite a lot once again heh
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04:11:08  <Starn88> so recently i've been having an issue with openTTD freezing my entire computer system, in both Windows and Linux i am trying to figure out if hardware or software. 'cause other games run fine for extended amounts of time.  i have a 2.7ghz quadcore cpu. 2gb vram on a nvidia 640gt. 6gb of ram dual boot with windows and linux.
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06:19:14  <_johannes> moin
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07:03:21  <andythenorth> o/
08:12:34  <andythenorth> ships
08:12:40  <andythenorth> grumble grumble
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08:21:49  <andythenorth> moin
08:24:15  <Alberth> hi hi
08:28:09  <V453000> yo
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10:21:09  <Wolf01> o/
10:22:15  <V453000> hy
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10:33:25  <svip> When can I start laying railway?  It's 1925, and the railway options aren't available.
10:33:44  <Wolf01> when the first rail engine become available
10:33:54  <svip>
10:34:01  <svip> According to this, it's should be 1925.
10:34:43  <Wolf01> if you have any grf which disable the builtin engines, check the introduction dates of the grf
10:35:27  <svip> Hmm... how do I check when GRF I am running?
10:35:55  <svip> Accordingly, I have no NewGRF files.
10:36:59  <Wolf01> the options menu should have an "actives newgrfs" entry, or what else is called
10:37:28  <svip> And there appears to be no active NewGRF files.
10:37:57  <svip> Maybe the engine becomes available DURING 1925?  And I'll just have to wait?
10:38:37  <Wolf01> try to fast forward to 1926 and check
10:41:38  <svip> btw, are rivers like a new thing?
10:41:48  <svip> It's been years since I last played.
10:43:11  <andythenorth> rivers are last 4 years or so
10:43:12  <svip> Hmm... it's now December 1925, and I did not get a new engine. :< Nor the ability to build railways.
10:43:13  * andythenorth guesses
10:43:24  <svip> andythenorth: When I played last, path signals were the new black.
10:43:27  <andythenorth> cheat the year to 1950 see what happens
10:43:58  <svip> How?
10:44:52  <andythenorth> ctr-alt-c
10:45:02  <andythenorth> then click on the date in ‘change date'
10:45:23  <svip> I now can lay railways.
10:45:34  <svip> I just wish I could do that in 1925.
10:45:59  <svip> Although, even 1925 seems a bit late for the golden age of railway.
10:47:24  <svip> Any NewGRF that helps with that?
10:49:25  <Wolf01> bah, if there's one thing I really hate, is when you need to purchase the SAME app twice because the developer like it so... if an universal app is too difficult to have, just share the license between the 2 identical apps on the same store
10:55:04  <andythenorth> svip: loads of newgrfs, needs a new game though
10:55:15  <svip> andythenorth: That's OK, I haven't built anything.
10:55:17  <svip> Since I couldn't.
10:55:18  * andythenorth recommends Iron Horse, but andythenorth is biased
10:55:20  <Wolf01> svip, try the NARS or iron horse, I think they have something for 1900
10:55:32  <andythenorth> or NUTS
10:55:39  <andythenorth> or UKRS 2
10:57:05  <Alberth> or just ignorfe the year, it's just a random number
10:57:16  <Alberth> *ignore
11:01:10  <Alberth> Wolf01: ask for a refund of the first buy?
11:01:36  <Wolf01> nah, I just want it on both pc and smartphone :P
11:02:42  <Alberth> :)
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11:30:32  <V453000> cat
11:30:39  <V453000> I haz it
11:33:25  <Wolf01> undo knob...
11:36:43  <Wolf01> we could add it to OTTD, in the cheat menu, it does "replay scenario from scratch"
11:49:17  <Alberth> slight improvement, reload last saved game
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12:10:33  <_dp_> what do "patch", "work in progress" and "external" issue types mean in bugtracker?
12:10:52  <_dp_> almost any patch is either bugfix or new feature
12:11:15  <_dp_> work in progress is an issue state, not type imo
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12:11:52  <flyinggerbil20> hello i have a question
12:11:57  <Wolf01> Alberth, but the last saved game could be anything
12:12:14  <flyinggerbil20> how can you join online servers
12:12:24  <Alberth> time travel is a bit unreliable :p
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12:13:15  <Alberth> flyinggerbil20:   ?
12:13:24  <flyinggerbil20> thank you
12:13:32  <Wolf01> if I start a game A, save, start game B and "undo", it could reload the game A save or even nothing if the savegame doesn't match with the company name... and both the save and the company name could be changed
12:13:53  <Alberth> hmm, good point
12:14:25  <Alberth> but euhm, it does do rollback, just not to game B :p
12:14:51  <Wolf01> imho, the restart scenario is the best option, maybe with a splash screen with a troll face
12:14:53  <Wolf01> :D
12:15:24  <Alberth> but that's not different from continueing in game A without saving, and then rollback to the last save
12:15:38  <_dp_> flyinggerbil20, and "connection:internet" is changed to "advertised:yes" now, that's the most common cause of connecting issues :)
12:15:54  <Alberth> we could also remove all save games, and the cfg file, and restart :D
12:16:05  <Wolf01> that is a user interaction, it's the player fault if loads a different save ;)
12:16:40  <Wolf01> with restarting the scenario the problem might be to restart the exact game, with cities and industries in the same place
12:16:57  <Alberth> I don't know what happens with the save game data after it is saved to disk
12:17:00  <Wolf01> for a real scenario it might work well, but with a random game not
12:17:07  <Alberth> if it is kept you could copy that back
12:17:41  <Alberth> also make a copy after starting, without saving to disk
12:18:02  <Wolf01> which work only for the session... once you close the game it's gone
12:18:17  <Wolf01> (like other softwares)
12:18:57  <Alberth> yeah, I really want to undo my last build action now, even though openttd doesn't run currently :p
12:20:59  <Wolf01> it might require to change the entire way the save works, as it needs some time to copy the state in memory for the other thread, and you need to do it for every action, maybe also each 1-2 game days to undo a train crash
12:21:06  <Wolf01> but I don't want that feature
12:21:27  <Wolf01> shit happens and it's good
12:21:47  <Alberth> state is already copied before saving to disk (it's the Zzz time that you get)
12:22:09  <Wolf01> yes, but you will get Zzz every second :P
12:22:20  <Alberth> play a sane sized map :p
12:22:29  <Wolf01> maybe an incremental sync would be cool
12:23:23  <Alberth> cool no doubt, but very complicated
12:23:57  <Wolf01> every map change must launch an event
12:24:25  <Wolf01> which is listened by the other thread and commits the single change
12:24:42  <Wolf01> and everything explodesz
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12:25:52  <Wolf01> I think this could work like minecraft, it continuously saves modified chunks in real time
12:26:27  <Wolf01> and it will improve a lot the saving time in very large maps
12:27:35  <Alberth> does that ever give you a consistent state?
12:28:23  <Alberth> only if you stop modifying the map, I guess
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12:33:05  <Wolf01> I think every state is consistent
12:33:41  <Wolf01> you could exit at any time and return to the last state without corruption... at least most of the times
12:35:36  <Alberth> ah, indeed, it's just not the current state, but one a bit earlier due to delayed saving
12:36:23  * andythenorth plays connect four
12:39:08  <Alberth> child is winning?
12:39:13  <andythenorth> yes :(
12:39:22  <andythenorth> I’m not even trying to lose to keep him happy now
12:39:35  <andythenorth> the only advantage he has is going first every time
12:39:43  <andythenorth> but I think that’s enough for this game
12:40:00  <Alberth> yep, if you pick the right column
12:41:43  <andythenorth> Wolf01: o_O
12:41:47  <andythenorth> need any wheels?
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12:50:31  <Wolf01> lol what £50?
12:51:11  * andythenorth is waiting for whoever buys them for £20 on Bricklink to find them :P
12:51:32  <Ketsuban> Alberth: The point isn't that the syscalls exist, it's that the paths themselves are bogus - there will never be a /usr/local/share/games/openttd//home/$USER/.openttd/openttd.cfg on any system.
12:51:51  <Wolf01> eh "may not post to italy", so I think I don't even try :P
12:52:23  * andythenorth must sell more things on eBay
12:52:25  <andythenorth> lego, trains
12:52:32  <Alberth> Ketsuban: ah, ok, fair enough
12:52:39  * andythenorth wonders if anyone would buy pixels
12:52:40  <Wolf01> don't. You'll regret it
12:53:49  <Wolf01> maybe an entire set of pixels, because just one is not marketable ;)
12:54:10  <Alberth> I have a bunch of identical ones, does that count?
12:54:32  <Wolf01> maybe, but they need to be >1000
12:55:49  <andythenorth> megapixel
12:55:52  <andythenorth> or is that > 1024?
12:56:34  <Wolf01> I'm wondering if it's better to build voxel models from scratch or sculpt a parallelepipedon, I wouldn't buy an empty mode, but a solid one might be too heavy
12:56:38  <Alberth> depends whether you're marketing or engineering :)
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12:59:01  <Wolf01> meh... the last hours before departure are a mess, I want to do too many things
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13:33:54  <andythenorth> quadruplex engines
13:36:01  <Wolf01> too many 8s :P
13:37:13  <Wolf01> Artist's impression of the final development of these proposals: a 2-10-10-10-10-10-2 Baldwin Quintuplex in action!
13:37:15  <Wolf01> lol
13:37:43  <andythenorth> quad garratt at the end
13:37:51  <Wolf01> yeah, it's cool
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13:45:07  <V453000>
13:45:20  <V453000> andythenorth: no wires, they fuck up with 3 different track types
13:45:29  <V453000> having an universal wire that would work with all of them is hell
13:45:54  <andythenorth> does make sense
13:45:59  <V453000> might add shadows for the integration effect though
13:46:14  <Wolf01> nice signals
13:46:42  <Wolf01> but they look too different from the track style
13:46:43  <andythenorth> you going to add any ground tile noise?
13:46:46  <andythenorth> or leave it flat?
13:46:48  <andythenorth> flat is ok
13:46:55  <andythenorth> but stuff will look like it floats
13:47:01  <Wolf01> they look like stickers
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13:50:30  <V453000> they mainly are clear at x1 zoom
13:50:33  <V453000> which is an achievement alone
13:50:46  <V453000> ground tile noise = shadow
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13:52:13  <V453000> btw Wolf01 if you want different style, the semaphore lights will look different
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13:52:16  <Alberth> really great signals V
13:52:54  <V453000> thanks Alberth :) I like them a lot
13:53:02  <Alberth> any plans to package them in a separate newgrf?
13:53:19  <Wolf01> no, I like the shape etc, but to me it seem they don't fit the graphics, they are too "clean"
13:53:20  <V453000> hmf
13:53:26  <V453000> yeah possible Alberth
13:53:43  <Alberth> Wolf01: but the entire world is clean
13:53:54  <V453000> well the tracks aren't
13:53:55  <V453000> which is a fair point
13:53:58  <Wolf01> the tracks aren't, there's noise on them
13:53:58  <V453000> but for example maglev is clean
13:54:23  <Wolf01> maybe they fit better with maglev
13:54:26  <Alberth> hmm, good point
13:55:36  <Wolf01> is it possible to have different signals for different track types or just light/semaphores?
13:56:00  <V453000> with railtypes it is possible
13:56:02  <V453000> for base game not
13:56:11  <V453000> so, light/semaphores it is
13:58:05  <Alberth> bbl
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13:58:21  <andythenorth> hmm
13:58:30  <andythenorth> V453000: you know how the first part of a project is obsessive fun?
13:58:33  <frosch123> hmm, scenario pack 0.12.21 -> 999.999.999
13:58:35  <andythenorth> then turns into work :|
13:58:49  <V453000> yes andythenorth
13:58:57  <V453000> frosch123: cause it is a part of the game now :)
13:58:58  * andythenorth just hit that with Iron HOrse :P
13:59:01  <andythenorth> again
13:59:10  <V453000> hm :)
13:59:13  <andythenorth> 7 days of fun drawing
13:59:21  <andythenorth> now I have to grind through all wagons and stuff
13:59:29  <V453000> I can imagine
13:59:34  <V453000> yeah wagons are tedious
13:59:52  <andythenorth> also I want them to look not all same as other rosters
13:59:58  <andythenorth> because otherwise, why bother?
14:00:28  <V453000> obviously ;)
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14:01:13  <V453000> well rendering shadows sure does take a while XD
14:01:14  <V453000> fuck
14:01:22  <V453000> rendering 2 things simultaneously is death
14:01:42  <peter1138> hurr 41.8 mph
14:06:52  <andythenorth> moar computers
14:06:59  <andythenorth> faster
14:07:14  <V453000> $$$
14:07:59  <andythenorth> sell stuff
14:08:03  <andythenorth> make $$$
14:08:18  * andythenorth must to shop
14:08:23  <andythenorth> for beans and croissants and stuff
14:08:25  <andythenorth> biab
14:08:58  <peter1138> coffee or baked?
14:09:35  <V453000> getting rendering stations is kind of a lot of $$$ to sell :D
14:09:49  <alluke> andy do you have a spritesheet of yellow tractors?
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14:17:23  <V453000> gg
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17:29:22  <Wolf01> people, I'll be back in 2 weeks, maybe before with the phone, so, see you and show me some more pixels when I'll return ;)
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17:32:00  <andythenorth> baked
17:34:23  <Wolf01> where were you? I'm saying hello to everybody, I'm going to try a Shinkansen
17:34:33  <Wolf01> (or more than one)
17:36:30  <V453000> holy shit I think trunk has a bugged convert signal tool
17:36:43  <V453000> if you convert a signal, it acts as if you ctrl-click a signal additionally
17:36:48  <V453000> changing the signal type by one
17:36:58  <Wolf01> bad one
17:38:14  <andythenorth> biab
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17:40:15  <Wolf01> bye
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17:42:22  <Alberth> I find the 'convert button' quite useless :)
18:03:01  <V453000> yes unless you are trying to demonstrate something with your signal graphics XD
18:03:03  <V453000> but bug is a bug
18:03:05  <V453000> will report
18:05:06  <Alberth> thanks
18:07:09  <V453000> also yes the convert button should be able to convert on multiple tiles, and both ways
18:07:16  <V453000> not just old -> new
18:07:29  <V453000> or at least en masse on a length of a track without junctions
18:07:32  <V453000> but in area would be way better
18:09:46  <Alberth> I wouldn't be surprised if there are feature requests for that
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18:13:16  <V453000> I think I even contributed to some of them yes
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18:18:35  <V453000>
18:21:47  <Alberth> very white :)
18:22:10  <V453000> clear :)
18:23:30  <Alberth> the NE and NW tunnels are mostly visible due to the tracks to/from them
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18:24:04  <andythenorth> ha
18:24:06  <andythenorth> lego sold :)
18:24:49  <V453000> andythenorth
18:25:51  <Alberth> industries are from the mars conversion?
18:26:01  <V453000> yes
18:26:08  <andythenorth> shadow ftw eh?
18:26:14  <V453000> aye
18:26:40  <Alberth> I clearly haven't played with that enough :)
18:26:41  <andythenorth> those industries are quite awesome
18:26:53  * andythenorth needs to make more ‘normal’ climate industries that look like that
18:27:11  <andythenorth> Alberth: how is your RCT clone going? o_O
18:27:31  <Alberth> hmm, I mostly gave up, for the time being at least
18:27:44  <andythenorth> big project ;)
18:27:59  * andythenorth considered adapting it to cargo coasters :P
18:28:06  <Alberth> after 5 years I kind of had enough of the uphill battle of having nothing to attach code to
18:28:45  <Alberth> probably also not helped by the major trouble at work last year
18:29:28  <Alberth> I am still in the process of finding my new spot
18:29:45  <Alberth> (ie what do I do with whom)
18:29:54  <andythenorth> all changd?
18:30:01  <andythenorth> +e
18:32:24  <Alberth> big shifts back and forth, yet to see where everything stops moving :)
18:33:11  <Alberth> eg my colleague programmer left this week
18:34:34  <andythenorth> :|
18:34:35  <V453000> :d
18:34:45  <V453000> ain't nice
18:35:21  <V453000> btw andythenorth I thought about what you said earlier about IH facing the "is work" obstacle ... and I realized that it hadn't happened to me with BRIX yet
18:35:27  <V453000> even after huge amount of time spent with it
18:35:31  <V453000> in fact, I like it more and more
18:35:40  <andythenorth> good :)
18:35:46  <andythenorth> I get into grooves like that with FIRS
18:35:49  <andythenorth> but not sustained
18:36:06  <V453000> well I don't work on BRIX every day either
18:36:21  <andythenorth> I think I go better with collaborators :P
18:36:53  <V453000> I am kind of a demanding bitch when I make some graphics, I want to see it in the game ASAP
18:36:59  <andythenorth> +1
18:37:04  <V453000> so cooperating on BRIX wouldn't be great
18:37:07  <V453000> like waiting for a week for coder
18:37:17  <V453000> rather sacrificing a day or two to code the thing
18:37:30  <andythenorth> doesn’t have to be that way :D
18:37:37  <andythenorth> when Dan isn’t too busy, we trade sprites
18:37:46  <andythenorth> he does a bit, I do a bit
18:37:51  <V453000> :)
18:37:54  <V453000> another option
18:38:17  <andythenorth> also we bounce the set design off each other
18:38:42  <V453000> I guess I just haven't met anybody who would have the same idea / want to cooperate on the thing ... except when Sylf coded YETI after I did 0.0.1 first to at least see stuff, and when Elyon was coding NML stations and left after a week XD
18:39:01  <andythenorth> yair, that :P
18:39:15  <V453000> and I spend a lot of time discussion the game design with openttdcoop people, so they are in a sense my cooperator ;)
18:39:25  <andythenorth> I have this channel for same :P
18:39:32  <Alberth> stations are a bitch, I am told
18:39:46  <andythenorth> there are enough contradictory opinions here that I can form an opinion of my own :)
18:39:50  <V453000> she had it almost finished Alberth :(
18:40:16  <andythenorth> stations are just weird
18:40:18  <Alberth> /me plays a not so quiet teddybear with andy, every now and then :p
18:40:23  <andythenorth> the spec is upside down
18:40:25  <Alberth> V  :(
18:40:39  <andythenorth> I suspect that implementing stations in NML isn’t hard, just unpleasant
18:40:44  <Alberth> upside down?
18:40:52  <V453000> ass side up
18:41:13  <andythenorth> it does something weird with the action chains iirc
18:41:47  <Alberth> /me is not surprised
18:43:10  <andythenorth> frosch123: so FIRS In A Hot Country economy
should I split fruit cargo?
18:43:40  <andythenorth> e.g. I might be able to fit cocao and bananas, or something
18:45:13  <frosch123> i would not add new cargos
18:45:25  <frosch123> but if you want to add some industry layouts :)
18:45:44  <frosch123> coffee estate -> coffee/cacao estate
18:45:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27514 trunk/src/lang/turkish.txt (2016-02-28 19:45:36 +0100 )
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> turkish: 2 changes by wakeup
18:46:17  <frosch123> fruit plantattion -> banana/ananas/date plantation
18:46:29  <frosch123> s/ananas/pineapple/
18:46:33  <andythenorth> and leave the cargo as fruit?
18:46:49  <frosch123> yes, spltting does not add anything
18:46:54  <frosch123> it only adds parallel chains
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18:47:32  <frosch123> unless you only want to deliver some of them to the port
18:47:38  * andythenorth considers banana oil :P
18:47:41  <frosch123> and others to food plant and brewery
18:47:54  <andythenorth> I could remove alcohol
18:48:00  <V453000> WHAT
18:48:02  <andythenorth> yeah no
18:48:03  <V453000> BEER
18:48:10  <frosch123> but definitely do not yet add more ports to accept yet more cargos :p
18:48:14  <andythenorth> nah
18:48:28  <andythenorth>
18:48:35  <frosch123> V453000: alcohol and food are completely equivalent cargos in firs
18:48:42  <V453000> I know
18:48:44  <V453000> but BEER
18:48:46  <frosch123> produced from the same raw stuff, accepted by the same
18:48:51  <V453000> yes
18:48:58  <V453000> replace food with beer I sez
18:49:00  <V453000> only option
18:49:02  <frosch123> alcohol is only cool when transported in tank vans
18:49:13  <V453000> tis what I do
18:49:46  <frosch123> anyway, advantage of food and alocohol are the wagon variety which they require
18:49:56  <frosch123> like edible tank van and refridgeraded box van
18:49:56  <andythenorth> yup
18:50:12  <andythenorth> also GS _could_ make use of it :P
18:50:12  <frosch123> while adding more minerals only results in the same hoppers
18:50:21  <andythenorth> if only someone would write more GS :)
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18:54:05  * andythenorth looks what goes to food processor
18:55:17  <andythenorth> quite like the idea of Bananas
18:55:22  <andythenorth> then there could be banana boat
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18:57:17  <frosch123> <- that one?
18:57:29  <frosch123> though it's a banana car
18:59:19  <frosch123>
19:00:32  <andythenorth> ha
19:00:45  <andythenorth> this will continue until someone posts banana hammock
19:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> no banana ever went into a food processor... any processed "banana" is just artificial flavour
19:00:50  <andythenorth> let’s short cut that
19:01:05  <andythenorth> hmm
19:01:13  <andythenorth> maybe a port with refrigeration? o_O
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19:16:55  <frosch123> ice cube factory
19:17:09  <frosch123> hotels need alcohol and ice cubes
19:17:39  <frosch123> are ice cubes bulk or piece goods?
19:17:45  <andythenorth> bulk
19:18:58  * andythenorth looks for pictures
19:20:28  <andythenorth> nah didn’t find any
19:20:55  <andythenorth> ah
19:21:08  <andythenorth> should be in Arctic Basic? o_O
19:23:04  <andythenorth> salt, ice, spice, silk
19:23:12  <andythenorth> tea
19:23:16  <andythenorth> I have coffee :P
19:23:19  <andythenorth> also tulips
19:24:34  <V453000> ._.
19:28:05  <Alberth> those cubes are for cooling (pre-refridgerator times)
19:28:48  <Alberth> I doubt you'd transport them very far, without refridgerators :p
19:30:53  <andythenorth>,_1856.png
19:30:59  <andythenorth> :D
19:31:05  <V453000> GG
19:50:59  <Alberth> OMG
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20:06:08  <V453000> it is ridiculous to see how large x4 is in compare to x1
20:07:32  * andythenorth must redraw everything at x4
20:07:36  <andythenorth> x1 too small
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20:26:11  <frosch123> i am still wondering about a better use for semaphores
20:26:40  <frosch123> but signals are already so colourful
20:26:52  <frosch123> so making differently coloured variants makes no sense
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20:48:01  <andythenorth> too many signals :P
20:48:16  * andythenorth considers patching ottd locally
20:48:28  <andythenorth> just colour-light PBS and PBS one-way
21:09:07  <Ketsuban> Only if PBS degrades to normal signals when there's only one path to reserve.
21:23:49  * andythenorth only ever builds PBS
21:36:02  <Alberth> good night
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