Log for #openttd on 1st March 2016:
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00:39:35  <drac_boy> hi
00:42:22  <sim-al2> hi
00:43:25  <drac_boy> how doing as usual?
00:43:39  <sim-al2> pretty good
00:44:29  <drac_boy> and btw about our frequent talks before there is one thing that some people have mentioned .. the GG1 was steam-era electric design while the E44 was diesel-era design and I rather think theres some point in that
00:45:15  <drac_boy> (and especially given that after the GG1 the use of idler axles was rather getting very rare, other than for weight-carrying purposes in A1A trucks)
00:45:24  <sim-al2> GG1 has a lot in common with the steam designs of the time, pilot trucks, the frame design, etc
00:46:04  <drac_boy> on the contrast .. there can be a such thing as maybe too many driver axles .. one moment I'll show you an example
00:47:37  <sim-al2> Of course, the locomotives tended to feature pilot trucks because the rigid driver-frame became somewhat unstable at speed
00:48:25  <sim-al2> In the ~30 years between the GG1 and the E44, suspension design improved a lot
00:49:10  <drac_boy> named Centipede and even eventually built with fewer engines (basically it was a bunch of small V8's per shell as I recall from magazine) than originally planned for tho
00:49:26  <drac_boy> PRR used them for horseshoe curve banking duty as one example tho least they weren't lemons from the start thankfully
00:49:40  <sim-al2> The E44 had nose-suspended traction motors, as opposed to the GG1's quill drive, though
00:52:57  <sim-al2> Baldwin did suffer from a failure to advance their designs though, the Centipedes had many steam locomotive-like characteristics, leading to more difficult than the Alco and EMD diesels that were arriving in the following years
00:53:11  <sim-al2> *maintenance'
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00:57:03  <drac_boy> at least the "babynose" diesel was a lot more 'conventional' even if it was not as numerous as other none-emd units (alco etc)
00:57:22  <drac_boy> even B&O bought a few of these I think
00:58:06  <sim-al2> The CNJ even had a dual-cab version
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00:59:09  <sim-al2> I've always wondered why dual-cabs failed to catch on here even in passenger service, it's not like a Geep had great long-hood visibility
00:59:36  <drac_boy> actually its likely to do with cost ... the control stands among other things
01:00:07  <sim-al2> Cab cars have the same though
01:00:08  <drac_boy> thats same reason why many GP7 and to smaller degree GP9 often came with certain pared-down configurations
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01:01:04  <drac_boy> a GP7 without MU and a smallish fuel tank, and even non-26L brakestand? sure you can have it, likely as cheap as they could even sell it
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01:01:08  <sim-al2> Nearly all commuter operations that survived beyond the 60's started using cab cars, although I suppose run-arrounds wouldn't have been possible around that time anyway
01:01:33  <drac_boy> and it also somewhat explains why the geep B units were slight popular with some railroads till the cost of cab vs non-cab finally just didn't pan out as much
01:01:57  <drac_boy> the GP60B ones are a bit of funny oddity I don't quite get tho but to our own
01:02:09  <drac_boy> (as its a very late unit, not part of the first generation diesels)
01:02:25  <sim-al2> I don't see how stripping those features down saved much money, the control system is already there anyway and I doubt 26L cost much more than maintaining older valves recovered from early equipment
01:02:58  <drac_boy> btw commuter railroads past the steam era often used push-pull to avoid runarounds at busy cities
01:03:25  <sim-al2> Most of those passenger geeps were built with steam generators, and thus needed water tanks
01:03:36  <drac_boy> well sim-a12 the cost indeed was noticeable back then a little like how your 20MB hd costed a lot more than a later 80MB one did
01:03:48  <drac_boy> (poor anatomy I know but still)
01:05:38  <sim-al2> The 26L had longer times between maintenace though
01:06:47  <drac_boy> one interesting slight abnormality (if you want call it that) with a few GP7 orders was re them coming with arch bar trucks ... I imagine it was due to the particular small railroad's shop familiarization
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01:09:47  <drac_boy> about passenger geeps, actually .. theres one that I've found interesting for some reason
01:10:41  <drac_boy> guess what emd did when they ran into the problem of needing space for the big water tank? just throw the air tanks onto the roof instead ;)
01:10:47  <drac_boy> that shows a good view of it
01:11:19  <drac_boy> as I recall fans nicknamed them torpedoes which I think seem to have merit
01:11:30  <sim-al2> Hmmm, didn't notice but there's 4 of the tanks, not the two you can normally see...
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01:11:52  <drac_boy> well yeah ground view can make it look like only two ... I think
01:12:14  <sim-al2> I wonder if the regular tanks are bigger or there's two shoved under the frame of normal geeps
01:12:29  <drac_boy> and that photo also seem somewhat early because of still having these Harrison coaches behind the bilevels
01:13:04  <sim-al2> I don't think the Harrisons were gone until the 70's though
01:13:28  <drac_boy> btw as I remember the fuel/water tank was basically a single assembly with the water sitting in middle and the fuel being a "U" saddle around it ... that was a carryover from the F design where the hot fuel returned to tank from engine kept the water tank from freezing up
01:16:10  <drac_boy> can't find a good outline photo so hope you can understand that description? ^
01:16:54  <sim-al2> Yeah
01:17:27  <sim-al2> Apparently the single-level coaches were in service through at least 1974
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01:19:44  <drac_boy> btw I found some outline drawings for the geep tho .. apparently the air would had gone into cylinders located between the rear truck and the fuel or fuel/water tank .. but of course for heavier trains or longer heating distance I guess they took this empty space for extra capacity therefore the "torpedoes" on roof
01:21:02  <drac_boy> heres one if you want to look
01:21:18  <sim-al2> Quite a lot of equipment worldwide has air reserviors tucked perpendicular to the length of the car, but EMD and GE seem to have preferred long fairly small diameter reserviors along the frame (or sometimes on the roof)
01:21:42  <sim-al2> Yeah, that arrangement is pretty common elsewhere
01:23:26  <drac_boy> btw I can't recall exactly which one now but I know some rather small gas/diesel locomotives probably had very little chassis space to use (especially if its a 2- or 3-coupled axles) so they put a big tank right in the front above the buffers
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01:29:37  <sim-al2> There's some Czech/Slovakian (built during the 80's) electric locomotives with the reservoirs between the bogies and the end plate of the frame
01:30:32  <drac_boy> heh actually czech kinda reminds me of something I looked into before, one moment :)
01:30:45  <sim-al2> Note the spoked wheels too:
01:32:07  <drac_boy> thats a sideway-cooled fan assemble under the seat, and guess where all the fuel is? sitting between the cargo rack and the front tire :->
01:32:28  <drac_boy> probably the only one scooter/motorcycle I've heard of where the fuel isn't located somewhere near the middle
01:32:59  <sim-al2> Oh my
01:33:37  <drac_boy> they sold a lot of them so apparently they were probably still safe enough tho
01:33:50  <drac_boy> I dunno tbh, after all
01:34:38  <sim-al2> Considering the alternatives...
01:35:36  <drac_boy> HEH oh boy, 2-stroke smelly cars that even had unrecycleable "plastic" body as well
01:35:55  <sim-al2> Behold, the Trabant in it's natural habitat:
01:37:43  <drac_boy> at least funny enough I recall some (I have no idea how long it went on for before the car was discounted post-wallfall) trabants actually ran on cleaner vw engines (so 4-stroke for sure, dunno what size)
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02:02:45  <drac_boy> if you're still there I got one more for you thats a NDM-1 and its almost like a smaller-and-dieselized version of the milwaukee bipolar if you think about it from an american modeller's viewpoint :)
02:03:18  <drac_boy> talk about being unusually an articulated diesel locomotive even although the total length isn't special enough to have really required it
02:04:06  <drac_boy> (cue japan having many diesel locomotives with 3 trucks but still running on one rigid chassis for comparison sake)
02:04:29  <sim-al2> Well actually...
02:06:14  <sim-al2> There are various early designs, but mass produced designs include the DF50 and DF200. The DD51 gets honorable mention for having a center support bogie between the two end powered bogies
02:07:52  <sim-al2> Various US locomotives have been exported to South America; those going to the narrow gauge lines tend to end up with 4 bogies attached together in pairs, in order to fit enough motor capacity into the smaller space
02:07:52  <drac_boy> yeah the DD51 did always seem like it would look strange without the middle truck .. given how when looked at from the side it looks like a rather long locomotive (not helped by the low hoods giving off that perception)
02:12:38  <drac_boy> btw while we're at japan. I always wondered about the real origin behind the DE10 design considering that even if steam boiler weight had made 3 axles required .. how come it has an irregular 3+2 pattern rather than just carrying an idler axle in the front truck?
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02:13:31  <sim-al2> Tractive effort probably
02:13:40  <drac_boy> (I could maybe be wrong one day but I believe its pretty much the only diesel with asymmetric tractions)
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02:14:01  <sim-al2> It's already a lightweight, an idler would hurt it on freight duty
02:15:02  <drac_boy> so no C'C' then?
02:15:08  <sim-al2> Probably not so important today, where the main duties are working MU transport from the factories and various shunting, but they were replacing various freight engines throughout
02:15:11  <drac_boy> thats why the DE10 has had me wonder about its origin sometimes
02:15:34  <sim-al2> Not, the bogie is not actually a C either, it's an articulated A'A'A'
02:15:42  <sim-al2> One of the early self-steering trucks
02:17:49  <sim-al2> It's probably worth noting that the DD51 and the DE10 have more or less the same engines, just the DD51 is rated ~1000hp per engine while the DE10 had a newer ~1200hp variant
02:17:53  <drac_boy> either way theres always the DD14 and how there were more than 20 of them. talk about a very specialized locomotive (I've never seen a photo of one working summer trains) but apparently even in modeller world they're still quite popular too tho
02:18:24  <sim-al2> Yeah, there's not too much in the way of English sources on them, and slogging through translations is hard
02:19:04  <sim-al2> There was a design very much like the German diesel-hydraulics, and though it wasn't too successful, it led to the design of the DD51
02:20:32  <drac_boy> but if you don't have much snow or just want to do a quick clean-up of station tracks you can just call in one of these instead:
02:20:45  <drac_boy> the adjustable mini-plow in front of the main plow at front end is an interesting touch too
02:21:10  <drac_boy> and the rear end is another business
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02:25:50  <sim-al2> There's always the big version too:
02:28:18  <drac_boy> :)
02:28:26  <drac_boy> anyway going off for a bit before going to bed so have fun allright?
02:28:36  <sim-al2> Not sure if Canada or Japan:
02:29:24  <drac_boy> eh? the road things in background says 0% canadian ;)
02:29:24  <sim-al2> Although central Japan can get pretty crazy...
02:29:44  <sim-al2> Yeah, this appears to be a relative of the DE10
02:29:52  <drac_boy> heh, well have a good day/night allright? :)
02:29:56  <sim-al2> Night
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07:03:33  <andythenorth> o/
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13:22:26  <argoneus> mmm
13:22:26  <argoneus> good trains
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16:52:03  <jackyf> Hello, I'm coding an OpenTTD patch and looking for a way to draw/apply a half-transparent solid colored "tile rectangle" over each tile. Does anybody know is a certain patch of piece of functionality does anything like this? The closest I could find is a tile highlighting functionality (DrawTileSelectionRect) but that is based on predefined sprites palettes as I understand. Any pointers?
16:58:16  <frosch> usually you do drawtileselection, but you can also try PALETTE_MODIFIER_TRANSPARENT
16:58:31  <frosch> like the newspaper darkening
17:02:45  <jackyf> hmm
17:03:20  <frosch> there are town  zone patches and stuff, which add another method for highlighting
17:03:29  <frosch> but it's visually complicated imho
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17:05:42  <frosch> <- stuff like that
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17:12:55  <jackyf> thanks for pointers! from that screenshots I see there is a way to highlight borders with different borders (like default highlighting), I wondered is there a way to apply solid coloring, not only border rect
17:13:27  <jackyf> I also see from the code that PALETTE_MODIFIER_TRANSPARENT is a bit in sprite
17:13:30  <frosch> even the patch in the screenshot needs to add seprate sprites for that
17:13:40  <jackyf> I see
17:16:10  <jackyf> so that suggests there is no easy way to produce PaletteID on the fly, and this'd be the answer to my question then :)
17:17:34  <jackyf> thanks again, I will look for other ways
17:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on how "easy" you think adding a new sprite is
17:20:04  <Eddi|zuHause> like, look at the commit that added the "all black" palette for drawing the map border
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17:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that was part of "more heightlevels", i think
17:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it originally added a black version of each of the ground tiles, but before inclusion it was changed to use the regular groundtiles but "recoloured" to completely black
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17:46:26  <jackyf> Eddi|zuHause: thanks for a pointer, I think I found this commit, some parts are beyond my knowledge
17:47:19  <jackyf> Eddi|zuHause: but do I undertand correctly that it'd require one static palette per one color, so if one wants 16 colors, it's 16 palettes to define?
17:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is basically how company colours work already
17:54:28  <jackyf> ack, I see
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17:55:51  <andythenorth> o/
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18:01:20  <Alberth> o/
18:07:33  <andythenorth> biab
18:07:35  <andythenorth> :)
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18:34:59  <argoneus> hello
18:35:01  <argoneus> did somebody say
18:35:02  <argoneus> TRAINS?
18:36:18  <Eddi|zuHause> no. nobody did that in days.
18:37:24  <argoneus> :(
18:42:14  <V453000> I heard a guy say fuck trains
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27515 /trunk/src/lang (polish.txt thai.txt) (2016-03-01 19:45:37 +0100 )
18:45:48  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:49  <DorpsGek> polish: 1 change by lion
18:45:50  <DorpsGek> thai: 11 changes by ityellow
18:46:18  <Ketsuban> Don't fuck trains. It doesn't end well for anyone involved.
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18:53:56  <argoneus> I'm pretty sure there's a rule 34 of fucking trains
18:54:21  <Ketsuban> Kantai Collection exists, I don't doubt there's a train one as well.
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18:59:15  <DanMacK> Hey all
18:59:20  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
18:59:20  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 51 minutes and 45 seconds ago: <andythenorth> :)
18:59:45  <DanMacK> figures
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19:02:59  <andythenorth> DanMacK o/
19:03:03  <DanMacK> Hey
19:03:09  <DanMacK> Nice timing
19:03:15  <Alberth> :)
19:04:08  <andythenorth> spooky
19:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> did hell just freeze over?
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19:41:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27516 /trunk/src (58 files in 3 dirs) (2016-03-01 20:41:31 +0100 )
19:41:38  <DorpsGek> -Update: Documentation
19:49:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27517 branches/1.6/ (2016-03-01 20:49:40 +0100 )
19:49:47  <DorpsGek> [1.6] -Branch: for incrementing numbers
19:52:01  <roidal> is there a way to figure out when a vehicle get obsolete?
19:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> not really
19:53:09  <roidal> okay, maybe another question
19:53:14  <Eddi|zuHause> the GRF may define a model lifetime, but there is a huge random number added to that
19:53:25  <roidal> if i had the option active that vehicle never get obsolet
19:53:40  <roidal> does they if i deactivate this option during gameplay?
19:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what happens if you deactivate the setting
19:56:59  <andythenorth> resetengines
19:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, you can do that to enforce it
19:58:23  <roidal> ah
19:58:25  <roidal> thy
19:58:58  <roidal> -h
20:00:28  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27518 /trunk (15 files in 12 dirs) (2016-03-01 21:00:22 +0100 )
20:00:29  <DorpsGek> -Update: Numbers
20:01:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch getting really descriptive with the commit messages
20:05:08  <frosch> numbers are difficult
20:05:08  <andythenorth> zen
20:05:46  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's "zehn"
20:06:28  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27519 /branches/1.6 (7 files in 4 dirs) (2016-03-01 21:06:23 +0100 )
20:06:29  <DorpsGek> [1.6] -Update: Documentation
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20:09:08  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27520 tags/1.6.0-RC1/ (2016-03-01 21:09:02 +0100 )
20:09:09  <DorpsGek> -Release: 1.6.0-RC1
20:11:11  <andythenorth> :o
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20:12:07  <frosch> andythenorth: only for firs :)
20:14:19  <andythenorth> it’s not done yet :P
20:14:25  * andythenorth must get izzy wizzy busy
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20:18:14  <andythenorth> should I buy this?
20:20:03  <frosch> does not look like lego
20:20:09  <frosch> so, why would you?
20:20:17  <andythenorth> I have stopped buying Lego
20:20:22  <andythenorth> now buying trains
20:20:32  <andythenorth> bought too many
20:20:35  <andythenorth> now selling trains
20:21:24  <frosch> you know, when people say stocks are bad, it does not necessarily imply other stuff is better :)
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20:34:19  <_johannes> Does someone know what it means that yapf has called NOT_REACHED() in yapf_base.hpp:309?
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20:35:05  <_johannes> it suggests some problems, but none of them relate to what I've done
20:35:22  <Eddi|zuHause> _johannes: NOT_REACHED() is a panic button for something that the original programmer thought can never happen
20:35:44  <frosch> according to the comment, you have created an invalid norm for A*
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20:36:09  <_johannes> frosch: I think I never changed the norm
20:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like returning negative weights?
20:36:48  <frosch> not over-estimating the distance
20:36:56  <_johannes> the comment suggests that, but I did not change anything about the weights
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20:42:46  <Alberth> not under-estimating, is it?  0 as estimate gives Dijkstra, which is still optimal
20:43:49  <frosch> hmm, yeah
20:44:06  <frosch> it has to give an "at least" cost estimate
20:51:59  <frosch> @topic set 1 1.5.3, 1.6.0-RC1
20:51:59  *** DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.5.3, 1.6.0-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | if this channel is really spammy
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20:57:18  <frosch> Eddi|zuHause: you may now look for missed numbers
20:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i probably won't, though.
20:58:20  <V453000> wats new?
20:58:26  <andythenorth>
20:58:53  <frosch> V453000: support for brix and firs
20:59:09  <V453000> :D ?
20:59:33  <V453000> :D ?
21:01:14  <V453000> rocks :D
21:01:17  <frosch123> Also, i can now Talk with myself when bored
21:01:49  <frosch> indeed, rocks
21:02:12  <V453000> looking forward to see what the generator looks like
21:02:23  <frosch> generator?
21:02:38  <frosch> mapgen is still crap, if you mean that :p
21:02:44  <V453000> not today though, managed to generate a factorio map with 2 oil sources per 2000x2000 tiles ._.
21:02:57  <V453000> mapgen karma too bad today
21:03:11  <V453000> luckily I discovered that after 2 hours, not 20
21:03:15  <frosch> my latest map has tons of oil, but hardly iron ore
21:03:40  <frosch> i hope f maps become more predictable
21:04:18  <V453000> I know there was some work on .13 generator
21:04:26  <V453000> idk what exactly
21:04:31  <frosch> yes, there was a blog
21:07:36  <V453000> well, at least I won't be wasting that much time on factorio :P
21:07:36  <V453000> gnight
21:18:45  <_johannes> valgrind reports use of an unitialized value in saveload.cpp:2279 ( if (lzma_easy_encoder... )
21:19:00  <_johannes> is it known
21:19:02  <_johannes> ?
21:20:40  <frosch> that stuff comes from lzma
21:22:04  <_johannes> ah, oh, this is no opentt library? :)
21:26:16  <frosch> saveload.cpp is ottd
21:26:27  <frosch> but that line only contains lzma stuff
21:26:56  <frosch> the variables are static initialised or, intialized directly before
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23:37:19  <drac_boy> hi
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