Log for #openttd on 4th March 2016:
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00:00:19  <sim-al2> "Please mind the gap"
00:01:32  <drac_boy> more like "please mind the literal gap" ;) as usually that kind of announcement is talking about <1 inch gaps tho :)
00:04:35  <sim-al2> Check out page 2 here:
00:05:15  <sim-al2> Even Japan has that problem, having platforms on curves sucks if you want to elevate it properly
00:09:43  <drac_boy> oh about japan, they always seem to have interesting traffics - sometimes doing things I never seen outside japan either
00:10:26  <drac_boy> like how about the commuter platform actually having a signal located mid-platform so its possible for an arriving train to creep into the platform even before the prior train has completely cleared out?
00:10:57  <drac_boy> that or a 3-way junction having trains timed so close together that you sometimes wonder what would happen if a turnout motor was just one second too slow :->
00:11:34  <sim-al2> Interlocking is always a part of turnouts like that
00:12:20  <sim-al2> The train can't be cleared if the rails don't complete an electrical circuit
00:13:03  <drac_boy> I know, what I really meant was I can't imagine the traffic shock if one train had to slow/stop at an unplanned signal
00:13:21  <drac_boy> at least most rail traffic is spaced much further apart
00:13:47  <sim-al2> Delays can and do happen, but there's huge crews of rail workers around to fix stuff quickly
00:14:24  <drac_boy> theres at least two things in the old system that seem to have been reduced or completely erased and its probably for the best tho...
00:15:28  <drac_boy> 1. specially hired pushers to cram people into overpacked trains (I'm not sure if this is still around anywhere anymore) and 2. drivers risking heavy punishment for letting a train be just a little late, as I recall this was what caused one of the rather bad emu accident where the train took a curve too fast and slammed into a trackside (in a manner speaking) apartment
00:16:41  <sim-al2> 1. That seemed to happen up to the early 2000's, but most routes have gotten longer trains and signalling upgrades so they don't have to do that anymore
00:18:05  <sim-al2> 2. JR West has been heavily critcized for that, to the point that a number of top executives left. That crash happened just west of Osaka near Amagasaki
00:18:25  <drac_boy> ah, found it in the wiki list as well
00:18:34  <drac_boy> heh there we go
00:20:26  <drac_boy> at least for most part japan seem to have designed a good system (mind you I still think of one kalbmach Trains article that basically quoted "fra would have never allowed any japan trains in usa, but then again japan is designed around preventing rather than withstanding accidents" which does have some truth in it
00:20:33  <sim-al2> Competition among railway companies around Osaka is far more intense than even Tokyo, with companies acclerating schedules and buying new equipment
00:21:28  <sim-al2> The FRA's authority is mostly related to running trains on the national network, plenty of metro systems run their equipment to much more reasonable standards
00:22:46  <drac_boy> mind you I haven't really checked too well about this but I wonder if theres any non-japan tilting dmu's around
00:23:20  <sim-al2> BR Class 221
00:23:26  <drac_boy> japan mainly only designed them because of the unelectrified route up north and that beside tilting was an easy way to shave the timetables after all
00:24:00  <drac_boy> ah I didn'
00:24:38  <drac_boy> I didn't know there was a diesel version of the pento trainset* (curse a sensitive Return key I got here...gota fix it on weekend uhh)
00:24:56  <sim-al2> Also the German Class 612, the "RegioSwinger"
00:26:10  <sim-al2> It's pointing out that the Class 612 and it's predecessors had many problems that took a long time to overcome
00:27:27  <sim-al2> The ICE TD also has tilitng, but the problems were so bad there that it's sometimes considered a failure, although units are being leased to Denmark for now
00:27:34  <drac_boy> heh oh THAT ... I recall the railway europe magazine said something about lot of software issues including not being able to MU together (at least *the* hardware side of that worked just fine tho)
00:27:46  <drac_boy> re the 612's that is ^
00:28:30  <sim-al2> Hmmm, wikipedia article for the TD has been updated, they are going to be scrapped this year...
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00:29:18  <sim-al2> Well, after December anyway
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00:30:11  <drac_boy> btw about tilting failures...
00:30:22  <sim-al2> The Japanese units have had some problems too, but those seem related to JR Hokkiado's maintanence practices
00:30:35  <drac_boy> why did noone noticed that a LRC without the "C" was really not much better than a standard F7/F9? ;)
00:31:31  <drac_boy> at least the then-matched coaches still got reused with the F40PH for longer so that was one good thing anyhow
00:31:44  <sim-al2> Needed to have a fast domestic-built train
00:32:20  <drac_boy> bombardier did try that .. the politics didn't quite buy into it tho
00:32:34  <drac_boy> was like I think called Jet Train or something close
00:36:44  <drac_boy> oh btw the gov wants to put over B into bombardier already .. I'm like "uhhh a jet plane does NOT mate with the kyoto stuff" ... no comment on why for a while I've been already thinking about leaving this country but to our own merits
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00:39:26  <sim-al2> It's not like most western countries don't pump lots of money into their national "presitage" companies anyway
00:40:55  <sim-al2> Apparently some of the design work put into the LRC made it into the Acela coaches though
00:41:45  <drac_boy> and the alberta politics keep complaining a LOT when anyone accuses their tarsand oil stuff .... I'm like X_X
00:42:41  <sim-al2> Probably not a good time to be in the tarsands industry, especially when all the "easy" oil sources are slowing down production
00:44:17  <drac_boy> well tarsand is very damaging in two ways..both excessive oil consumption and re the big landscape scar ... so no further comment from me :->
00:44:45  <sim-al2> Yeah, not really the nicest system at all
00:45:39  <drac_boy> coal is somewhat a bit split .. I mean many mines are using underground tunnel which is ok .. its the general consumption of coal that is more of the issue tho (outside being used in steel mills etca ofc)
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00:50:18  <drac_boy> anyhow back to some more rail topics .. just curious but what do you think of re active vs passive tilting mecahnisms?
00:50:29  <drac_boy> I know some of it depends on general rail route conditions too but even then
00:50:39  <sim-al2> I suppose it's up to the design and the situation
00:51:17  <sim-al2> Active tilt systems seem to have a bit more troubled past, especially the hydraulic systems
00:52:31  <drac_boy> passive isn't good if you got a lot of old fashioned turnouts (is it a wonder that the Turbotrain actually had a booklet warning to stay seated under motion at one specific station?)
00:52:43  <sim-al2> The electric actuators seem to be a lot better
00:52:47  <drac_boy> but for modern rails (UIC turnouts too) .. passive probably works pretty well
00:53:25  <sim-al2> I have to wonder if the turnout thing is more of a Talgo-style design issue
00:54:08  <sim-al2> The JNR era 381 series had passive tilt, although apparently those units carried seatback sick bags
00:54:58  <sim-al2> I've read that the tilt on the British ATP was a little *too* good, in the sense that perfect compensation caused nausea in many people
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00:55:47  <lastwisher> hi guys
00:56:04  <lastwisher> i have a small problem, about client code anyone can help ?
00:56:22  <drac_boy> heh actually the APT was a rather early experience at tilting .. noone knew about the downward sensulations ... cue everyone there by then knowing to do less-than-full tilting from that point onward
00:56:44  <ST2> lastwisher: dnt ask to ask ^^
00:56:52  <ST2> just make your question :P
00:56:59  <lastwisher> heheh :)
00:57:09  <lastwisher> st2 at everywhere
00:57:14  <drac_boy> the turnout isn't talgo style .. in usa the turnouts are old 15kph limited ones with sharp diverges ... hence why the turbotrain could "rock" a lot at the busy station
00:57:18  <ST2> known fact :P
00:57:34  <drac_boy> but in europe they have long by then known how to design high speed turnouts that even a passive tilting system wouldn't have really noticed them much
00:58:14  <sim-al2> No, the top-hung pendelum style made famous by Talgo, but found on the Turbo trains and the experimental units for the New Haven and others
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00:58:55  <lastwisher> ok i want to use some functions at a rail_cmd.cpp on rail_gui.cpp but i dont see any headers, and when i try to include rail_cmd.cpp to rail_cmd.cpp i get already defined errors (i thing double include) how i can handle this ?
00:58:58  <drac_boy> oh well.. the turnout speed thing is true nevertheless
00:59:01  <sim-al2> Also, 15 kph is an incredibly low speed limit, even for old styles
01:00:13  <sim-al2> Possible at stations, but that's seems very detrimental to running trains to any kind of tight schedule
01:04:13  <drac_boy> btw about the APT .. this is APT-E but still .. a diesel-hauled test train (looks like either panto or rail ride test to not have the end cars present) somehow didn't brake enough and went a little past the rails heh
01:04:56  <sim-al2> *opps*
01:05:31  <sim-al2> Is that the buffer that's underneath the front?
01:05:51  <drac_boy> no idea heh .. but looks like all axles are down on the gravel :)
01:06:14  <drac_boy> or as an american would had quoted "on the ground!" .. not sure if british english had an equival to that
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01:13:46  <drac_boy> actually heres another one from uk seem like classic case of locomotive not being set into neutral properly while being turned around
01:15:31  <drac_boy> has happened quite a number of times as far as reported history seem to say (and its no surprise that even Awdry used one of them as a basis for one episode too)
01:16:20  <drac_boy> and heres poor gordon doing the same thing
01:19:08  <sim-al2> Heh, always seems to make a mess
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01:26:02  <drac_boy> btw if you're up for some long reading this is a pretty good list even if sometimes some of them are a bit hard to believe at first (like book #3 story #2)
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01:42:54  <drac_boy> anyway going off for tonight now
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07:51:04  <qwebirc85697> In the cargo flow chart apparently some link can be overcrowded and become red. But even when lots of people waiting in stations those link never overcrowd and at most full. How is it possible to make a link overcrowd?
08:05:39  <V453000> no clue, sorry, I find cargodist pointless :(
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08:12:44  <qwebirc85697> *cargo flow legend
08:13:09  <V453000> yes I understand what you mean
08:17:16  <qwebirc85697> Is there any rules on the openttd forum that disallow me to ask in old post like
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10:20:02  <qunow> About the cargodist thing i think i found out the reason why it doesn't show red/yellow. Seems like you need to let cargodist to help distrubute the cargo in order to have it display overlpad status
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10:59:28  <V453000> miracle happened :D I wrote a .bat and it works
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12:13:06  <andythenorth> o/
12:26:18  <V453000> yo
12:26:54  <andythenorth> getting much sleep V453000?
12:26:55  <andythenorth> o_O
12:28:43  <V453000> kind of alright
12:29:03  <V453000> had a blender adventure morning though ... shit is solved now
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14:44:36  <kubast2> Hey ,is it possible to move the mini map?
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14:48:03  <andythenorth> on a mac, hold down the cmd key and drag, there will be a similar key on other OS
14:49:58  <kubast2> andythenorth: I tried control ,alt ,super key and they don't work ,I have old version of openttd[from repo] ,so that might also be a reason why it doesn't work for me
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14:51:08  <kubast2> ok I see there's a button that allows me to center the map[where my view is the center of the minimap]
14:51:18  <planetmaker> left-click + drag iirc
14:51:46  <planetmaker> the functionality of how map is moved didn't change in years
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15:02:09  <kubast2> planetmaker: I didn't wanted to move a minimap window/move my view within minimap/enlarge the minimap window ,I wanted to move the minimap ,the center button seems to do the trick.
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17:51:47  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
17:51:47  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 23 hours, 45 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey hey
17:51:55  <andythenorth> when I go, he will arrive
17:51:59  * andythenorth biab
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17:53:04  <V453000> hm considering to make all vehicles 8/8 instead of 4/8
17:53:07  <V453000> 4/8 just looks tiny
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17:55:10  <Alberth> use 4x zoom :p
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17:55:22  <V453000> I have a shitload of details
17:55:26  <V453000> they are totally lost even in x4
17:58:41  <Alberth> hmm, we need 8x?  :O
17:58:50  <V453000> and they are meant to look massive, the scale difference is just too big from the usual
17:58:51  <V453000> no
17:59:41  <Alberth> yes, I find x4 too big, but maybe I need a higher resolution screen :)
18:15:22  <V453000> yeah
18:15:31  <V453000> and when something looks way too small in x4, you have a problem :D
18:20:36  <Alberth> :D
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18:54:05  <andythenorth> o/
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19:28:04  <AssThunder> hm
19:28:07  <AssThunder> for 4/8 is heuge
19:28:14  <AssThunder> for 8/8 is small
19:28:16  <AssThunder> eh vice versa
19:28:19  <AssThunder> you get the point
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19:29:20  <andythenorth> V453000: eh?
19:29:22  <andythenorth> :)
19:29:29  <V453000> I have rendered vehicles
19:29:40  <V453000> if I make them 4/8 and downsize the sprites to fit, they are tiny
19:29:49  <V453000> if I make them 8/8, they will glitch badly
19:30:15  <andythenorth> 4/8 is super-chibi
19:30:28  <andythenorth> the IH roster I am working on, I was going to make all the NG trains 4/8
19:30:30  <andythenorth> doesn’t work
19:30:33  <V453000> ye and this is meant to be massive looking
19:30:37  <andythenorth> had to use 6/8
19:30:39  <V453000> so 4/8 is canceled :D
19:30:44  <andythenorth> I cancelled 4/8
19:30:47  <andythenorth> and christmas
19:30:48  <andythenorth> both
19:31:44  <andythenorth> 6/8 makes a round number at 4 tile length
19:31:53  <andythenorth> so everyone should just use 4 tile trains :P
19:32:11  <V453000> ..
19:32:15  <andythenorth> actually the engine is 8/8 so my trains are ‘optimum’ at 5 tile
19:32:23  <andythenorth> which everyone knows is the winningest length anyway
19:32:26  <andythenorth> coop standard no?
19:32:37  <V453000> coop doesn't have a standard length
19:32:39  <V453000> but most common is 3
19:32:40  * andythenorth remembers first coop game he played
19:32:51  <andythenorth> I was building trains to look nice, and everyone was freaking out
19:32:57  <andythenorth> ‘andythenorth you are ruining our networks'
19:32:59  <andythenorth> :D
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19:36:07  <V453000> hm fak I once again modeled before seeing the dimensions in game XD
19:37:14  <andythenorth> eh, it’s all modelled, no?
19:37:17  <andythenorth> easy to change o_O
19:37:38  <V453000> it is but I have a very short-ish vehicle
19:38:01  <andythenorth> copy-paste :P
19:38:08  <V453000> mh
19:38:15  <andythenorth> ‘select all’ -> transform -> y axis, 200%
19:38:18  <andythenorth> :P
19:38:27  * andythenorth was an expert at 3D modelling
19:38:29  <V453000> I might see a solution
19:38:35  <V453000> but ye, hell
19:40:00  <V453000> I was basically trying to put a mining truck on tracks
19:40:06  <V453000> to compare it
19:40:21  <V453000> big square-ish fat vehicle
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19:54:35  <V453000> hm 75% kind of almost works
19:54:39  <V453000> weird
19:58:28  <andythenorth> mining truck proportions not like trains :)
19:58:30  <andythenorth> but
19:58:42  <andythenorth> that’s the point eh?
20:00:30  <V453000> yeah
20:00:31  <V453000> :D
20:00:44  <V453000> well applying the 8/8 sprite to 4/8 vehicle wasn't helping with glitches either :D
20:00:55  <V453000> 75% is pretty flawless
20:01:03  <andythenorth>
20:01:35  <V453000> seen that one
20:01:51  <V453000> I got more like
20:01:54  <V453000> asdf
20:02:20  <V453000>
20:04:03  <V453000> but in train version :P
20:04:06  <V453000> so chibby as fuck
20:05:13  <andythenorth> yup
20:08:18  <V453000> I think 75-85% will do the trick
20:08:20  <V453000> is pretty win
20:09:14  <V453000> not much lost
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20:14:01  <V453000> if I just replace tunnel entrances with something a little ridiculous, it won't even glitch XD
20:14:07  <V453000> easy enough
20:14:08  <V453000> gnight
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20:18:13  <Thasan> how can I get write access to wiki? "Account creation from this IP address (Adrealoly) has been blocked by frosch."
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20:22:00  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
20:22:00  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 3 hours, 6 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <frosch123> the build station gui will tell you
20:22:04  <andythenorth> 2 days :o
20:22:07  <andythenorth> he must be away :)
20:22:09  <andythenorth> or sick
20:22:22  <V453000> O_O
20:22:26  <V453000> frogpocalypse
20:22:31  <V453000>  /is sleeping
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20:27:48  * andythenorth should make Iron Frog
20:46:28  <FLHerne> Thasan: You could PM frosch on the forum, or just wait until he's on here
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21:14:19  <drac_boy> hi
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21:44:42  <drac_boy> goign make some supper now sorry :->
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23:45:13  <Salamander> Hey
23:45:31  <Salamander> 18:13:36  Salamander | Question about a station's coverage area: should the coverage area cover all tiles of an oil field for example, or is it enough that it covers one of them?
23:45:34  <Salamander> 18:14:09  Salamander | i.e. will there be a difference in available product at the station if it covers all of an oil plant's tiles vs just one of them?
23:45:37  <Salamander> 18:15:30   frosch123 | industry->station requires one tile, station->industry requires some specific tiles
23:45:40  <Salamander> 18:15:36   frosch123 | the build station gui will tell you
23:45:51  <Salamander> unfortunately for me I'm not clear on the answer
23:46:01  <Salamander> will this
23:46:13  <Supercheese> so, if you want to pick up oil from oil wells, *any* tile within station catchment is fine
23:46:37  <Supercheese> but if you want to drop off oil to a refinery, you need *certain* tiles of the refinery within catchment
23:46:37  <Salamander> give as much oil as this?
23:46:47  <Supercheese> yes, they will give the same oil
23:46:52  <Salamander> thank you
23:46:57  <Supercheese> no problem
23:47:00  <Supercheese> :)
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23:56:24  <Salamander> been some 10 years since my last game
23:56:30  <Salamander> i suppose i should RTFM
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23:57:31  <Supercheese> to be fair, details like that are scattered and not necessarily easy to find
23:57:39  <Salamander> ok
23:57:59  <Supercheese> there's quite a bit of esoteric "veteran knowledge"
23:58:00  <Salamander> how does truck filling frequency affect supply capacity?
23:58:13  <Salamander> i.e. should i send 5 or 10 or 15 trucks to pick up oil?
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23:58:54  <Supercheese> the rule for that is you should try to always have one vehicle loading, and right when it fills up and leaves, the next vehicle behind it just arrives and begins loading
23:58:59  <Supercheese> but that's tricky to get juuuust right
23:59:14  <Supercheese> so you can get away with having an extra vehicle or two to ensure one is always loading
23:59:21  <Salamander> oh
23:59:39  <Supercheese> you never want to have lots of cargo waiting
23:59:39  <Salamander> what about the choice of vehicle - truck or train or boat
23:59:43  <Salamander> is there a manual for that?
23:59:49  <Supercheese> yeah there is some wiki info

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