Log for #openttd on 6th March 2016:
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00:32:42  <sim-al2>
00:33:13  <drac_boy> that a long trolley?
00:33:16  <sim-al2> Seems that camshaft-style controllers can be found on DMUs too
00:33:31  <drac_boy> oh huh, interesting..maybe a commuter dmu re lot of stop-n-go
00:33:34  <sim-al2> Nah, Derby Lightweight British dmu
00:33:58  <drac_boy> would had been tiring to hold down the automatic brake bar on a long nonstop run otherwise
00:34:25  <sim-al2> 4 gear+neutral Electro-pnuematic gear selector on the right, 4 position electro-pnuematic throttle on the left
00:35:11  <sim-al2> These had a deadman valve on the throttle, the brake controller is missing but would be to the right of the gear selctor
00:35:14  *** kais58_ is now known as kais58|AFK
00:35:20  <sim-al2> Vaccum brakes too...
00:35:34  *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58_
00:35:46  <sim-al2>
00:36:26  <sim-al2> Choose to maintain compatibility with the coaches, since these were built in the mid-to-late 50's when lots of steam engines were still around in the UK
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00:37:21  <sim-al2> Since air is needed for the controls, they had compressors and exhausters driven by the engines (and almost all had two engines per power car)
00:37:47  <drac_boy> tbh I always found the whole vaccum-vs-air transition rather interesting...
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00:38:21  <drac_boy> did you know that even the prototype Deltic was sent on a brake test and it took rather a long time to come to a full halt with vacuum which clearly pointed to the need for air brakes instead? :)
00:38:54  <sim-al2> Vaccum makes sense for steam engines, as it does save the complexity of an air compressor (at the expense of the development that had already been made on air brakes)
00:40:07  <sim-al2> But it's fairly terrible for diesels, as fairly specialized exhausters were needed, and the working pressure of a vaccum brake is far lower than air brakes, so you need bigger brake cylinders, reservoirs, etc
00:41:10  <drac_boy> well I do know that some of the usa-sourced wartime steam for uk had air brake capacity tho, heres one example
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00:42:09  <sim-al2> I believe most of the dual-fitted diesel locomtives actually used air for their own brakes, with the vaccum system controlled in parallel for the train
00:42:15  <drac_boy> yeah I agree re diesel/electric having air
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00:44:15  <drac_boy> actually I believe it was some hill-to-dockside electric railway that had the early use of regenerative brakes too ... small steeplecab-ish locomotive is all I can recall right now
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00:44:38  <drac_boy> they were interested in it when the train hauled by electric instead of steam managed to stop in a shorter length
00:44:57  <sim-al2> Strangely enough, compared to the US Budd DMUs, these regualarly towed coaches and even freight cars, despite having mechanical transmissions
00:45:37  <drac_boy> well tbh if it was not supposed to haul wagons then it shouldn't be called a MU ... ;)
00:45:44  <drac_boy> just my own nitpick heh
00:45:58  <drac_boy> railbuses on the other hand often are designed to run slo or with one specially matched coach
00:46:01  <sim-al2> Well, it's definetly a DMU, with powered cars and control trailers
00:46:03  <drac_boy> slo=solo*
00:46:25  <sim-al2>
00:47:59  <sim-al2> The maximum load is not very high, a set with two power cars and a trailer car is only rated for 35 tons
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00:48:12  <drac_boy> the VT98 was interesting one tho...always could either find one running alone or in varying mismash such as power-cab or power-trailer-power-cab etca
00:48:34  *** day__ is now known as day\
00:50:30  <drac_boy> interesting article
00:51:14  <drac_boy> btw you want know something else?
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00:52:31  <sim-al2> What?
00:52:32  <drac_boy> the pre-rdc were a funny hodgepot brunch .. some of them rather ran just by themself their whole life while others were always finding themself being treated like a light locomotive instead re hauling anything (even a no-passengers-tonight coach Brill being found shoving grain hoppers around the silo track wasn't out of the question
00:56:05  <sim-al2> Yeah, gasoline-electric railcars appeared on branch lines, and were generally successful, but there were accidents
00:56:31  <sim-al2> Naturally the ones where the fuel ignitied were particularly ugly
00:56:43  <drac_boy> this isn't usa but its still quite the same thought re no passengers that day
00:58:35  <sim-al2> Those untis weren't particuarly powerful either
00:58:40  <drac_boy> btw many of the Brill's were actually converted to diesels (sometimes even ones out of a truck, but for occassional low-speed running this doesn't seem like a surprise) either due to the gas radiators being a pain and/or for fuel economization
00:59:26  <drac_boy> well the brill usually could be had with about 100-400hp depending on age and whether rebuilt or not so for a quiet branchline this was plenty enough
00:59:55  <sim-al2> Truck engines aren't uncommon in DMUs, although the newer ones often had more specialized designs than the 50's/60's designs
01:00:36  <sim-al2> It seems the Model 55 had 68hp
01:01:56  <sim-al2> Refitted from 1934 onward with a 102hp Gardner diesel, one with a Duetz later on
01:02:14  <drac_boy> I checked, even a ge 44-ton had 2*180hp on most orders .. and wiki doesn't have a page for the lighter under-44ton models but I imagine it was much less power
01:02:53  <drac_boy> so the brill had its place as a improper "passenger one route then shove a boxcar or two another day" I suspect heh
01:04:43  <drac_boy> heh is it just me or the Model 55 looks like it carries its tiny engine under the nose instead of mid-chassis?
01:05:42  <sim-al2> Yeah, I think it's up front
01:06:24  <sim-al2> A lot of the gasoline-engined railcars are built that way, often single-ended too
01:06:51  <sim-al2> I suppose that turning facilities weren't a problem
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01:07:41  <drac_boy> well many of the late usa ones had the engine sitting around the interior if not small enough to sit under-chassis ... but of course the exhaust was usually somewhere over the cab roof end
01:08:40  <drac_boy> on the other hand there were at least one or two railroads that ordered some (it was a small builder I don't recall name of now) vehicles that looked like stretched bus rebuilt with rail chassis instead .. even had a chain-connected manual transmission that needed a strong arm to operate too :-s
01:09:09  <drac_boy> at least they lasted for a while as a cheap one-man (instead of steam locomotive with separately conductor-ed coach) passenger service
01:11:27  <drac_boy> d&rgw at least knew how to built decent if not unusual looking passenger/freight combo railtrucks .. and their transmissions didn't need a big arm to operate heh
01:11:51  <sim-al2> There were some early attempts at buses that could operate on both road and rail
01:11:59  <drac_boy> heres one of the mid-age model
01:12:15  <drac_boy> and yes it *was* a fullsize boxcar that they reused
01:12:53  <drac_boy> where the road axle should had been was a chain drive to the rear rail bogie instead .. usually both rear axles were powered
01:14:32  <drac_boy> not surprisingly for d&rgw some of these units had to carry a fullsize plow in a nod to the mountain-amount snows
01:17:21  <sim-al2> Not to mention, literal buses:
01:18:05  <drac_boy> sim-a12 heres something you only usually find on low-speed lines that doesn't want to fence everything off
01:18:26  <drac_boy> I'm sure the driver must had laid on the horn a bit there :)
01:19:39  * drac_boy wants to caption this one "umm hi cow?"
01:19:41  <sim-al2> Converted schoolbus?
01:20:06  <sim-al2> Hmm, that track looks a bit... rough...
01:21:02  <drac_boy> what do you expect from a narrow gauge line thats only made for 20-50kph anyway? :)
01:23:27  <drac_boy> btw you reminded me and it took a while but I actually found a photo to start can you call that a "rail truck-bus" or what?? I imagine the first coach was generally mated permamently but it seem like the train sometimes could had another 1 or 2 coaches being hauled as well tho
01:24:04  <drac_boy> and from the look of that hood's suggestive engine age I imagine it didn't run that fast so apparently 3 coaches wasn't a burden on its small output
01:25:10  <sim-al2> Yeah, looks like a very light railway even now:
01:26:08  <drac_boy> yep I was right, the first coach is stuck on for good unless in a shop
01:26:17  <sim-al2> Top speed: 20 km/h
01:26:28  <drac_boy> and are these mirrors I see over the front wheel fenders?
01:27:11  <sim-al2> Looks like it
01:27:32  <sim-al2>
01:29:00  <sim-al2> Appears to be permantly joined with the carriage body:
01:29:20  <drac_boy> btw this reallllllly looks like someone hammered a random bus onto a uk rail flatcar and called it a day
01:30:11  <drac_boy> and um are these turn signal bezels turned into red panel instead?
01:30:12  <sim-al2> The railway is still operated by DB today
01:31:19  <sim-al2> Yeah, their were attempts to produce railbuses from bus parts, but the ones that appeared during the 60's and 70's were often mostly buses with rail underframes
01:31:53  <sim-al2> The Pacers, Class 141-144, do share a lot of bus parts, but had to go with a slightly more conventional body
01:32:07  <drac_boy> anyone want to take a cue from the nickname Bouncy Castle or even Pogo Stick?
01:32:16  <drac_boy> heh .. well ^^
01:32:22  <sim-al2> Unfortunatly, a combination of being 4 wheel and having poor suspension makes for a bad ride
01:32:39  <drac_boy> yeah, that :)
01:33:07  <drac_boy> actually you remind me of another thing with uk dmu/emu's ...
01:33:13  <sim-al2> I'm sure people are alarmed that there's a proposal to rebuild them rather than replace...
01:34:18  <drac_boy> there was one that went by the class 422 or 442 (I forgot now) .. and they had composition tires (instead of standard steel ones) plus the fact that there was a corresponding signal bellcode for "train running away on right line" ... turns out these poor units slipped a lot on leaves so they could be found overshooting
01:34:44  <drac_boy> weird how the class # turned out to match perfectly with a bellcode for some strange reason
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01:36:42  <sim-al2> Hmm, 442 is the high speed 80's units, 422 is the code for the 4-BIG, nothing about different wheels
01:38:32  <drac_boy> hm might be another number off...oh well I don't recall where this old website was...
01:39:06  <drac_boy> I do recall that one of the class 16* something was literally called a T*rdo and the explanation given was "well what did BR expect?"
01:39:18  <drac_boy> I'm not sure I get it but I'm no english person tho :)
01:41:47  <drac_boy> oh btw I found it again from a forum list .. I was thinking of 455 which seem to be short for Four Slide Slide
01:44:03  <drac_boy> hm I had to go look and this is interesting 455 is in the right direction but a 255 means its not where it should be going 0_o
01:50:17  <drac_boy> either way don't think I got anything more to add about dmu/railbus now :)
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01:59:27  <sim-al2> Heh, thought those were train conductor bell codes for a second, got very confused
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02:00:31  <drac_boy> ah :)
02:05:59  <drac_boy> btw not exactly dmu but heres something interesting:
02:06:24  <drac_boy> seem they did that a few times, even one photographer got an example of a standard 91 trainset being led by a third flat-facing 91 cab unit 0_0
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02:11:41  <sim-al2> It seems a little strange that they expected those to pull freight trains at night and still make it back to their trainset in time for day services
02:13:53  <drac_boy> no comment
02:14:27  <sim-al2> I guess it's useful if the DVT blows up though
02:14:52  <sim-al2> Nevermind that the orignal DVTs were actually HST power cars at introduction
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02:20:37  <drac_boy> btw about running in certain directions...
02:21:12  <drac_boy> I never understood why they always kept putting pairs of 20's together *with* the flat end leading .. whatever happened to extra protection by mashing them cab-to-cab instead of nose-to-nose?
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02:25:49  <ello> ello
02:25:52  <ello> ?
02:25:55  <ello> anyone there
02:26:21  <ello> Anyone????????????????????????????
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02:27:33  * drac_boy smacks the impatient ello just cause
02:27:35  <drac_boy> :)
02:59:15  <drac_boy> going sleep anyhow
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06:58:56  <andythenorth> o/
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07:19:13  <V453000> heyoze
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07:34:47  <_johannes> hi
07:36:02  <V453000> sup yo
07:44:16  <_johannes> is it true that, regardless of how many newgrfs you've loaded for your game, the maximal amount of cargo types is 32?
07:44:40  <V453000> migh be, ask andythenorth  :)
07:45:19  <_johannes> andythenorth ? :)
07:48:22  <andythenorth> 32
07:48:44  <andythenorth> iirc, cargos get redefined subject to grf order
07:48:53  <andythenorth> with sometimes weird effects
07:48:55  <_johannes> what happens if you have more than 32 cargotypes, counting all newgrfs together?
07:49:27  <andythenorth> some will be over-written
07:50:09  <andythenorth> there are 32 slots with numeric IDs
07:50:31  <andythenorth> if your grf puts coal in 1, and mine puts fish there
07:50:40  <andythenorth> one cargo will be over-written
07:50:48  <_johannes> lol
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08:09:55  <V453000> ah yeah true
08:10:21  * V453000 remembers YETI making towns produce livestock :>
08:10:26  <V453000> is actually realistic.
08:10:59  <V453000> btw andythenorth I ended up re-modelling the whole train XD
08:11:07  <V453000> scaling borkd, concept improved
08:13:58  <V453000> also, chibby --
08:18:23  <andythenorth> pictures or didn’t happen :P
08:18:32  * andythenorth is going to trick V453000 into a preview
08:18:46  <andythenorth> and
then the set will die because you get bored of it :D
08:22:08  <andythenorth> hmm
08:22:16  <andythenorth> April 1 gets ever closer :(
08:25:44  <V453000> oh god point :D
08:26:01  <V453000> won't make it in 1m :)
08:26:23  <V453000> if I am redoing it, no preview :P
08:27:19  <V453000> it won't die; it would be more likely if I had continued with a solution I am not convinced about
08:28:08  * andythenorth must finish FIRS 2
08:28:13  <andythenorth> or wait another year
08:28:18  <V453000> XD
08:30:17  <V453000> btw my train set will use zero can_attach_wagons
08:30:30  <V453000> user friendly :)
08:33:24  <andythenorth> what does can_attach_wagons do?
08:34:13  <V453000> restrict which engines can haul which wagon, and spit errors in case they are incompatible
08:34:46  <andythenorth> why would that be good ever? :)
08:35:04  <V453000> express vs freight etc
08:35:13  <V453000> nuts is full of it
08:35:27  <V453000> each class has own wagons
08:35:39  <V453000> is annoying feature
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08:41:17  <andythenorth> sounds BAD :)
08:41:24  <V453000> but if you want each class to have it's own wagons with it's own benefits, it is understandable way ... also makes sense in the way that wagons don't totally switch appearance/performance when you attach them to different class
08:41:33  <V453000> for new users, it is very bad
08:41:45  <V453000> but if done systematically like NUTS, you learn it quickly
08:41:53  <V453000> still, shitload of restrictions ain't helpful
08:42:09  <V453000> I will just use switches to change graphics and performance when necessary now
08:42:15  <V453000> put anything to anything
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09:28:41  * andythenorth must make FIRS eh
09:30:51  <_johannes> do we have a function that converts CargoLabels int const char* strings or std::strings?
09:31:11  <_johannes> I know it's easily done, but if there's a function, I'd like to use it
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09:41:57  <_johannes> nvm, solved
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10:26:05  <andythenorth> ships annoy me so much
10:26:29  * andythenorth is not even playing, just found some screenshots of FISH development
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13:17:05  <_johannes> Hmm my openttd does not find opensfx anymore
13:17:23  <_johannes> though it's installed via package manager
13:17:55  <_johannes> oh nvm after restarting it found it oO
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13:35:45  <Alberth> sounds fishy
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14:26:20  <drac_boy> hi
14:27:03  <drac_boy> little question for anyone around europe area....did they ever use turntables on early diesel locomotives or it was probably more or less just an american thing?
14:32:02  <drac_boy> heres an american one just for comparison sake heh
14:48:00  <Alberth> /me wonders how the engine kind is related to storing many engine in one building
14:48:08  <Alberth> *engines
14:49:19  <drac_boy> alberth, half of the times its not about storing :)
14:49:45  <Alberth> I can settle for the other half :p
14:50:18  <drac_boy> even dual-control units still went through turntables sometimes, I dunno why but suspect its probably to do with wanting a certain hood length on return trips
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14:52:51  <Alberth> tbh I wouldn't expect train handling operations to change because someone invented a new power system
14:53:33  <Alberth> but I don't know about the use of turn tables
14:53:55  <Alberth> I have seen them here, so they were either invented or imported here :)
14:54:32  <Alberth> s/here/Europe/g
14:54:36  <drac_boy> mind you if you wanted storing then you're happy to look at this modern photo :P
14:55:03  <drac_boy> looks like it used to be pre-csx steam if that roundhouse is indeed an old building
14:56:23  <Alberth> it wouldn't make sense to build it there if the tracks were planned as they are now :)
14:57:05  <drac_boy> yeah
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14:57:29  <drac_boy> on the other hand both britian and europe had a few of these unusual thing which were not exactly turntables but still behave partially like one tho
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14:57:58  <drac_boy> talk about saving several many feet of track space requirement by compressing the switchback track and turnout into a short length
14:58:42  <Alberth> fun thing :)
14:58:45  <drac_boy> yep
14:59:00  <drac_boy> even Noch has one working model for HO scale trains too ;)
14:59:15  <drac_boy> (or its easy to scratch your own together heh)
14:59:56  <glx> <-- used for storage at least
15:02:00  <drac_boy> alberth but either way if we want to ramble on some more how about transfer tables?? can't turn anything around but they at least can move multiply tracks in the small space of just one or two locomotives long :p
15:02:44  <drac_boy> although I know a few existed at wagon works too (long enough for one new wagon plus a tiny tractor shunter)
15:05:21  <Alberth> nah, those cheat :p
15:06:58  <drac_boy> ;)
15:07:36  <Alberth> nice link glx
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15:26:17  <drac_boy> going off for now so have fun alberth :) and hey don't look for too many locomotives? hehe
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17:01:30  <Alberth> o/
17:01:56  <andythenorth> o/
17:03:28  <V453000> andythenorth: today I thought about 2 more features that will be awesome and you personally will like. :P it is happenin
17:06:04  <Alberth> \o/ awesome features!
17:06:06  <andythenorth> V453000: is it this?
17:06:45  <Alberth> self-expanding tracks? :)
17:07:15  <V453000> NO
17:07:16  <V453000> better
17:09:41  <Alberth> awesome++ ?
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17:15:42  <V453000> +++
17:15:59  <V453000> basically I found ways how to do some of NUTS mechanics in a sensible way that doesn't look WTF
17:16:19  <V453000> one could ALMOST say realistic!
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17:19:56  <Alberth> :O
17:20:06  <Alberth> V going realistic :D
17:20:31  <Supercheese> Inconceivable!
17:21:19  <Alberth> I guess things change when you get a regular job :p
17:28:06  <andythenorth> V453000: ‘ALMOST’
17:28:11  <andythenorth> like the sun is a bit hot
17:28:19  <andythenorth> almost warm
17:28:25  <Supercheese> balmy, really
17:28:44  <V453000> Alberth: my last job was definitely a lot more regular than the current one :)
17:29:32  <Supercheese> Now instead of fixing bugs, he's rendering them ;)
17:32:26  <V453000> and realism x sensibility aren't really the same thing either ;P
17:32:38  * andythenorth wonders how high (z index) industries can be
17:34:21  <V453000> as fuck
17:34:30  <V453000> sufficient answer? :D
17:34:47  <V453000> some yeti stuff is probably pretty tall
17:36:17  * andythenorth is trying to achieve maximum realistic wtf
17:36:49  <Supercheese> if you want maximum wtf to be realistic, just get the government involved
17:36:58  <andythenorth> basically this, rearranged to TTD style and tiles
17:37:01  <Supercheese> they have a monopoly on WTF, and are sadly all too real
17:37:30  <V453000> XD
17:38:06  <V453000> andythenorth: just try :)
17:38:14  * andythenorth keeps trying
17:38:19  <andythenorth> trying is the thing, right
17:38:20  <andythenorth> ?
17:38:51  <V453000> yes
17:38:58  <V453000> just mash buttons
17:39:33  <Alberth> building from lego could be a bit of a problem
17:39:47  <Alberth> loads of good colours
17:40:28  <Alberth> hard red and hard blue don't conflict at all :p
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17:55:37  <_johannes> is there an openttd screensaver?
17:55:43  <_johannes> please say yes :D
17:56:34  <_johannes> where from one map, random trains are followed for ~ 20 seconds
17:56:39  <_johannes> that would be cool
18:01:18  <V453000> I remember a discussion about something like that for the menu screen
18:01:19  <_johannes> awesome:
18:01:38  * _johannes must try this out
18:10:00  <Alberth> loads of YT videos doing that (longer than 20 seconds though)
18:11:25  <V453000> XD
18:11:26  <V453000> point
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18:38:27  * andythenorth needs the OGFX steel mill
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18:53:55  * V453000 is wondering what does andythenorth want on OGFX steel mill
18:54:02  <V453000> is there any uglier OGFX industry?
18:54:04  <andythenorth> funny you should ask
18:54:25  <andythenorth>
18:54:30  <andythenorth> wanted the furnace
18:54:39  <andythenorth> I fixed it a bit
18:54:50  <V453000> ok that might be the only ok bit XD
18:57:18  <andythenorth> I want a different key colour for this industry
18:58:00  <V453000> I find the long industry layouts weird tbh
18:58:01  <andythenorth> I have used brown a lot recently
18:58:06  <andythenorth> it’s just a test layout
18:58:12  <V453000> brown is nice for smelter I think
18:58:15  <andythenorth>
18:58:21  <andythenorth>
18:58:31  <andythenorth> maybe it’s right, and I’m just bored of 3 in a row brown
18:58:40  * andythenorth considered red, but ugly
18:59:13  <V453000> where is frosch the CC nazi
18:59:22  <V453000> 's fine :P
18:59:33  * andythenorth gets on with it
18:59:36  <andythenorth> moar brown then
19:00:12  <andythenorth> sometimes I use this other brown, but eh, not right for this
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19:20:27  <andythenorth> now I need some massive wtf tower thing
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19:30:39  <V453000> draw it? :)
19:44:11  <andythenorth> yup
19:47:15  <FLHerne> Evening
19:48:19  <FLHerne> Spent almost a year doing [other stuff], but I'm back to trying to build a grf-editing tool now
19:48:25  <FLHerne> <Eddi|zuHause>     it's really simple, actually. enable the bounding boxes (Ctrl+B if you have newgrf developer tools enabled). find the corner of the bounding box that is invisible. that need to be the coordinates for your offset
19:49:02  <FLHerne> <FLHerne>  Eddi|zuHause: Relative to the top corner of the sprite?  <Eddi|zuHause>     yes
19:49:24  <FLHerne> I've tried following that, but it doesn't seem to give the same results as the game :-/
19:49:33  <FLHerne>
19:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> things might be more complicated for shortened vehicles. i don't really remember
19:50:49  <FLHerne> The NML example road vehicle has offsets -14, -7, but the ingame bounding box seems to have offset -16, -6 according to those rules
19:51:05  <FLHerne> I think the NML one is standard-length?
19:51:19  <Alberth> cropping of image?
19:52:47  <FLHerne> Alberth: Horizontally, there's nothing to crop, I think cropping it vertically would be different in the opposite direction?
19:54:07  <FLHerne> Perhaps I should see how it comes out for other lengths/directions
19:54:09  <Alberth> depends on the side being cropped
19:54:26  <V453000> FLHerne: why do you care about bounding boxes?
19:54:54  <V453000> I always just put vehicles in game, see how it looks, adjust offsets if necessary (usually is)
19:55:05  <Alberth> original image + offset/size  has all the non-transparent pixels at the same place as cropped image + adjusted offset/size
19:55:08  <V453000> bounding boxes are a nice hint but ...
19:55:20  <FLHerne> V453000: So that the user can drag a bounding box over the vehicle sprite and have their offsets automagically calculated
19:55:31  <FLHerne> Which only works if I can do the calculations right :P
19:55:31  <V453000> xd
19:55:35  <V453000> ah
19:55:37  <V453000> I see
19:55:41  <V453000> nice effort :)
19:55:57  <FLHerne> And yes, I know this is a terrible idea that'll probably never work out. Don't warn me ;-)
19:55:59  <V453000> very brave and valiant :D
19:57:24  <andythenorth> FLHerne: write it in python, if you don’t mind
19:57:36  <andythenorth> then if it works, I can stop fighting offsets :(
19:57:50  <V453000> I need to learn python too, fucking blender
19:59:12  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes, although PyQt is such a completely unpythonic set of wrappers that half of it might as well not be :-/
20:01:54  <V453000> ^ andythenorth, offsets will haunt you till death
20:02:20  <FLHerne> Okay, so the sprite aligner thinks it ends up with -14, -7 too (accounting for it being broken in 1.5.3), so it's not just an NML thing
20:03:10  <FLHerne> Problem is, the point on the bounding box that apparently should be offset 14px across and 7px down from the top-left of the sprite seems to be completely arbitrary
20:03:30  <FLHerne> It's not a corner (including the invisible one), nor the middle
20:04:08  <FLHerne> Perhaps I should just shrug and define the apparently-arbitrary point without thinking about it :P
20:09:32  <Alberth> for testing, the origin isn't relevant
20:10:10  <Alberth> I would expect the newgrfspecs to define it though
20:17:42  <FLHerne> Yes, I think was the page I wanted :-)
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