Log for #openttd on 13th March 2016:
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01:10:48  <drac_boy> hi
01:11:50  <drac_boy> any of you indeed think that stub turnouts were generally only found on 4ft/smaller gauge railroads that had low operational speeds? I'm kinda thinking so but just wonder what others thought too
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01:31:51  <Flygon> Stub turnouts?
01:32:05  <Flygon> (okay, so, 48 tiles of Oil = 2,860 Crates of Goods)
01:34:34  <drac_boy> heres a three-way one for you :)
01:34:44  <drac_boy> and heh flygon, you trying to get massive transport? :)
01:34:53  <Flygon> Three-way?
01:34:57  <Flygon> Needs more gauges
01:35:09  <Flygon> Needs to be an or- er- collaorative party
01:35:29  <Flygon> drac_boy: Island map with just one Oil Refinery in the middle of nowhere
01:35:39  <Flygon> These trains are the most efficient I got
01:36:23  <drac_boy> flygon well I think dual gauge usually were only 2 because the frogs were complex enough to make in the first place
01:36:47  <drac_boy> although if you got a lot of time with your model train I don't see why you couldn't had tried make one that hopefully might work :)
01:37:00  <Flygon> South Australia had triple gauge points :D
01:38:49  <drac_boy> although I know theres one spot in russia where their (5+ft)track crosses a standard gauge tram line and a 'children railroad' narrow gauge ... three different gauges of diamonds
01:39:17  <Flygon> Ouc
01:39:18  <Flygon> Ouch
01:42:51  <drac_boy> this is a different one from the one I mentioned but it still shows how three gauges are living next to each others. the steam locomotive is on 750mm and crossing broad gauge .. while that tram on other side of road is on 4'8" gauge
01:42:53  <drac_boy>
01:49:46  <drac_boy> flygon just asking but what you think of this locomotive? (and optionally maybe the train too)
01:50:00  <Flygon> I am a bit surprised they never regauged to more standardized gauges
01:50:16  <Flygon> ie. 1067mm and 1524mm for Russia
01:50:39  <Flygon> IT'S A BLUEBIRD
01:50:56  <Flygon>
01:52:04  <Flygon> V/Line imported a set for use as an Interurban DMU. Transmission seized on the first revenue run. With the Press and State Premier (equiv. to Prime Minister) onboard.
01:52:34  <Flygon> It handled the start-stop pattern on the mountainous terrain very badly. It was designed to cruise at high speed on long distance lines >_>
01:52:53  <Flygon> (I forgot if it was Diesel-Mechancial or Diesel-Hydralic)
01:55:46  <drac_boy> heh well the locomotive is basically a Dze 6/6, and the only non-krokodil articulated locomotive as far as I know (aside to steam in form of 0-4-4-0T but it didn't go far)
01:56:13  <drac_boy> and btw I believe they used 750mm as it was rather supposed to be a low cost 'schooling' thing rather than as a everyday commercial railway to put it in words
01:57:09  * Flygon nod
01:57:17  <Flygon> Still, I'd be a bit worried about the increase in costs
01:57:29  <drac_boy> heh that sounds like australia didn't exactly have good luck with these specific dmu's
01:57:35  <Flygon> On the other hand, this makes for very cheap to import heratage stock for some Victorian railways :P
01:57:47  <drac_boy> considering they have many old railmotors and emu's still running around
01:58:08  <drac_boy> I still like the red slamdoor ones mind you
01:58:13  <Flygon> (we built a lot of 762mm lines... 750mm is within gauge variance tolerance at the speeds the lines ran)
01:58:29  <Flygon> Ehh
01:58:36  <Flygon> The Bluebirds ran well for what they were designed for
01:58:39  <Flygon> Barren plains
01:58:58  <Flygon> Victora is made up of mountains, moutains, and more mountains
01:59:16  <Flygon> You wouldn't think V/Line had a hand in the climax of Thunderdome xP
01:59:25  <Flygon> (our North-West IS Desert)
01:59:36  <drac_boy> :)
01:59:42  <Flygon> This's also half the reason the VLos are so overpowered >_>
01:59:58  <Flygon> That's a Sliding Door, not a Slam Door :3
02:00:24  <Flygon> And I still think they should get the highest unload/reload rating possible for the 2CC set, given they're almost as much door as they are wall >_>
02:00:36  <drac_boy> oh reason I like them is that from a side view .. if you blocked the pantograph from view it would almost look like a standard coach instead ... thats how generic they look like :)
02:00:51  <Flygon> Note that the doors slide BEHIND the Windows. The windows get blocked by the doors when they're ope!
02:00:58  <Flygon> Well, they were built  the 1880s
02:01:03  <Flygon> in the*
02:01:19  <Flygon> They were refitted for EMU operation
02:01:30  <Flygon> And ran as both carriages and EMUs combined for over 100 years.
02:02:03  <drac_boy> the funny thing is there was actually this one britian oo scale layout I saw at a show once .. I asked about two coaches left on the line ... umm guess what happened? yep soon these two suddenly moved away on their own ... I had not realized they were actually power units :P
02:02:30  <drac_boy> compared to more modern dmu/emu units being too obvious even from a far distance
02:03:28  <Flygon> :D
02:03:32  <Flygon> Well, think of it this way
02:03:59  <Flygon> It dooooes make economical sense to refit existig units
02:04:13  <Flygon> Just replace the bogies, add pantographs, add control stand... done!!
02:05:11  <Flygon> Keeeeeeping in mind
02:05:18  <Flygon> They ALREADY had cabs, with windows, for the guards to use
02:05:41  <Flygon> iirc, sometimes they'd run the trains with the locomotive pushing on the rear, and the guard reading the signals
02:05:47  <drac_boy> these are a similar usa example I like ... remove the pantograph and suddenly it looks just like another coach :p
02:06:02  <Flygon> I don't know if the guard had much control beyond using the bells and brakes, though
02:06:08  <drac_boy> mind you the funny thing is that later on GG1's sometimes did haul these (with the non-GG1 pantographs tied down)
02:06:22  * Flygon nod
02:08:20  <drac_boy> the slight sad thing is the timing tho .. just when budd was trying to sell a newer version (lightweight chassis with weight-saving aluminum shell for example) very few of them were ever purchased in the first place due to the spiral the company soon went into
02:08:32  <Flygon> Damn
02:08:35  <drac_boy> at least the amfleet coaches were more or less an unpowered copy of the design tho
02:09:05  <Flygon> This's half the reason VR built a lot of stuff inhouse until the 50s-60s...
02:09:16  <drac_boy> these would-be fleet of emu had inside bearing as well (yep no truck frame in view)
02:09:17  <Flygon> VR's unlikely to collapse suddenly xP
02:09:37  <Flygon> Hum o.o
02:11:25  <drac_boy> btw these are what could-had-been for prr .. save for no inside bearings (as noted by the truck frames)
02:12:08  <Flygon> Huh, well... I do gotta say
02:12:13  <Flygon> They look American as hell
02:12:14  <drac_boy> only 6 built and all were designed as single-unit motors (so yeah 2 cabs in every each of them)
02:12:25  <drac_boy> assuming wiki got the quality right
02:14:55  <drac_boy> oh and flygon heres a weird history tidbit on the budd metroliner initially built for PC (then later amtrak) .. they were supposed to have lightweight trucks but PC got a bit worried and demanded older more reliable heavyweight trucks instead ... guess what happened? they caused more harsh ride at higher speeds but the designers only could migrate a bit of it without having to send the whole thing back to drawing board :-s
02:16:35  <drac_boy> at least even with the semi-lasthour truck switch these trainsets still did 100+mph in service
02:20:26  <Flygon> Didn't the fact they were so overweight cause huge structural problems?
02:21:07  <drac_boy> maybe, I don't recall the magazine article talking about that tho
02:21:58  * Flygon nod
02:22:20  <drac_boy> I do know for sure that till amtrak cured the issue with the belly-mounted electronics (surprise surprise) some winters sometimes saw the metroliner trainset not moving by itself but instead being hauled by a GG1 (which a number of had already received winterize kits for their air intake covers)
02:24:07  <drac_boy> heres one with the pantographs still up (probably separate electric heating transformer was still functional)
02:24:35  <drac_boy> even with the snow "smoke" you still can tell its a metroliner due to the tapered sides ;)
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02:26:23  <Flygon> O_o
02:26:28  <drac_boy> aha flygon I found how amtrak eventually fixed their snow problem: they stuffed more of the electronics to the roof instead of in the belly, and heres an example of this
02:27:13  <Flygon> Well, that'd work @_@
02:27:23  <Flygon> Ahh, USA, having massive gauge :D
02:27:33  <Flygon> Australia? Limited loading gauge. DD Trains all over Sydney :D
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02:27:42  <Flygon> Some of the world's most cramped underfloor electronics
02:27:51  <Flygon> To the point where Japanese utterly baffled :3
02:28:38  <drac_boy> actually 'massive gauge' was not always so .. theres still some lines where amtrak could not even run their bilevel wagons at all (that was why a few old pre-amtrak diner coaches kept existing for so long due to being assigned together with amtrak-funded coaches on these routes)
02:29:10  <drac_boy> oh and to a more common degree if you're wondering why a doublestack train is *all* single containers ... check your map you might see why :)
02:29:57  <Flygon> Hum?
02:30:18  <Flygon> (we do have lots of Double Stack here... bar certain lines with 1800s era tunnels)
02:31:21  <drac_boy> well its a bit funny sight sometimes .. seeing a very long train of nothing but just ttx doublestack wagons .. and yet guess what? its loaded to only single container height from the front to the back end :)
02:31:57  <Flygon> O_o
02:32:59  <drac_boy> oh and flygon if you want talk about pushing gauge to the limit .. try THIS
02:33:24  <Flygon> That's not pushed to the limit :3
02:33:27  <Flygon> It's not cramped enough
02:33:44  <drac_boy> nyc made it as big as their railroad would even take it .. heck the bell couldn't sit on top anymore so umm guess where they had to put it? right behind the pilot ... think that caused a lot of snow-out problems tho
02:34:00  <Flygon> THIS is pushing the gauge as far as possible :3
02:34:07  <Flygon> It's not as biiiig, but it's cramped af :D
02:34:30  <Flygon> Even the Chimeny is noticably even stumpier
02:35:24  <Flygon> But, again, I still think lots of US railroads had waaay large loading gauges :D
02:35:27  <drac_boy> your problem is your boiler isn't exactly round at the top :)
02:35:53  <Flygon> Well, we had to fit it into the loading gauge somehow :P
02:36:29  <Flygon> The dome on the top actually becomes very thin on the top
02:37:06  <sim-al2> Too large????? How do you plan to do this elsewhere?
02:37:52  <drac_boy> btw a noticeable number of tunnels in east usa actually had to be relaid to single track (instead of prior double) as to be able to clear the newer GE Dash units ... sometimes even the wagons as well (but even then some could accept the new locomotives but were still too shallow for a doublestack)
02:38:15  <sim-al2> Most of the time they cut the tunnel floor though, or notched the ceiling
02:38:22  <drac_boy> a few of these tunnels that were still doubletrack had noticeable notches in the portal ends ... adding a few inches more of clearance
02:38:44  <sim-al2> If it can't clear a Dash 8 it's not going to clear high-cube boxcars
02:39:13  <Flygon> drac_boy: Same thing happened here with older tunnels as we got larger gauges happening
02:39:49  <Flygon> sim-al2: People do tend to forget the wings are designed to deattach :P
02:40:00  <sim-al2> Although there is a GE cab variation with slight notching, supposedly because a coal loader on a AT&SF/BNSF line in Arizona was a bit too small to clear the regular version
02:40:22  <sim-al2> Well, in this case the wings haven't been put on yet :p
02:41:01  <drac_boy> btw flygon there is also a few rare instances of where the tunnel was built through a small hill instead of an actual mountain and so 50+ years later the then-current railroad decides its worth the cost to basically "remove" the offending hill in first place
02:41:03  <drac_boy> eg
02:41:30  <drac_boy> and yes these are old tunnel portals that are about to have no purpose for existing anymore soon
02:41:37  <sim-al2> For whatever reason, it's been cheaper to build the fuselages in the Mid-West or even east coast, and then ship them all the way to Seattle
02:41:55  <Flygon> Sounds like some of my OTTD games
02:42:15  <sim-al2> Yeah, BNSF has been doing that a lot, especially in the case of older tunnels
02:42:23  <Flygon> sim-al2: Same reason we send food to China for processing then reimport it >_>
02:43:27  <sim-al2> The best part is, when they arrive at Everett, a pair of GP38's shove the cars up hill to the plant
02:44:29  <Flygon> Let's take a moment to appreciate that, when we get the Bering Strait link
02:44:39  <Flygon> They'll prolly outsource fusilages to China >_>
02:44:50  <Flygon> Or Russia. Whatever's cheaper and less likely to crash
02:45:17  <sim-al2> No way that would be allowed, Boeing gets all kinds of concessions just to stay in Seattle
02:45:53  <Flygon> Ooh
02:45:56  <Flygon> That explais a lot
02:45:59  <Flygon> explains*
02:46:06  <sim-al2> Besides, shipping all the way across the ocean would be too expensive, and Chinese wages aren't rock bottom anymore
02:46:29  <Flygon> Yeah
02:46:32  <Flygon> China's gonna rise...
02:46:37  <Flygon> I wonder what'll be the next manufacturing base
02:46:49  <sim-al2> China has different minimum wages by region, the area around Shianghai is around the same level as Mexico
02:46:55  <Flygon> I'm placing bets on Africa... if they can get their collective proverbial sorted
02:47:17  <sim-al2> The northern interior is still quite low, but shipping from their is even more expensive, because you have to travel so far by land
02:47:50  <drac_boy> flygon btw if you want an instance of rail gauge gone crazy, take ten pills and go look at england :)
02:48:20  <sim-al2> I suppose, but I see Europe and south/southeast Asia as a more important destination for African industry than the US
02:48:59  <drac_boy> as I recall one example from mind, a small group of emu had stiffened suspensions as to be able to use a rather tight vintage-steam-era tunnel .. and just once none were around so someone tried borrow the same emu from another railway instead and umm guess what happened? it made some major dints both to the tunnel lining and itself :->
02:49:18  <drac_boy> talk about suspension plays!
02:49:46  <sim-al2> Sounds like England, where there was one railway line that constrained all the southern region diesel stock
02:50:29  <sim-al2> Including requiring a batch of Class 33s there were a few inches narrower, but ended costing the manufacturer a lot in retooling to build
02:51:25  <sim-al2>
02:51:44  <drac_boy> oh and btw even during the steam era there were an obvious reason some classes were banned on certain routes .. I know a magazine had one photo of an express 4-6-0 with some noticeable platform-strike damage to its piston coverings ... turns out that the story was that an engine swap was supposed to happen earlier on but it wasn't available for some reason so the crew decided to just continue on with their existing locomotive
02:52:14  <Flygon> Doesn't the UK have a 372mm commercial line or something?
02:52:20  <drac_boy> after a shed inspection the locomotive was sent back to where it should had been at on a special routing with 40kph restriction :-)
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02:53:13  <sim-al2> 372mm is hideously small, there are 1372mm railways, aka Soctch gauge, 4 foot 6 inches
02:53:48  <sim-al2> So-called minimum gauge is 381 mm, or 15 in
02:53:54  <drac_boy> 372mm sounds like some hand-pushed or 10hp tractor powered 10kph freight cart railway tbh
02:54:23  <sim-al2> Yeah, that's not really equipment that can go very far or fast
02:54:46  <drac_boy> 2ft/600mm was really probably the smallest independent transport gauge you could use tbh
02:55:03  <Flygon>,_Hythe_and_Dymchurch_Railway
02:55:32  <drac_boy> and not surprisingly even 60cm (aka 600mm) used to be a big thing around france area (neverminding non-france areas during WWII as well)
02:56:42  <sim-al2> Yeah, 600mm seems to be the smallest to have "real" equipment, and even then there's some problems:
02:56:56  <Flygon> 381mm
02:57:29  <drac_boy> heres one of these non-wartime 60cm line
02:57:46  <drac_boy> and yeah that coach is a bit big .. talk about needing to keep a 6ft headspace inside among other things :)
02:58:33  <sim-al2> It seems that many industrial railways disappeared as trucks improved, those that remain being tourist railways, specialized, or converted to larger gauge
02:58:52  <Flygon> I'd be worrying about the passengers tipping the carriage over
02:59:25  <sim-al2> Usually the center of gravity is kept low by the frame, but these railways certianly had low speed limits
02:59:49  <drac_boy> well sim-a12 the real problem was that politics never really understood things .. they were basically asking to trade one relatively quiet train with low-cost property maintenance for basically loud black-smoking trucks that didn't really pay for their roads (at the time)
03:00:04  <sim-al2> That Class 91 has a maximum speed of 50km/h for example
03:00:17  <drac_boy> thats what some vine farm newseditors basically quoted the event as
03:01:39  <drac_boy> heh hmm yeah these class 91 seem oversized for their gauge just as much as these almost seem too big's%20station%2019SE76small.jpg
03:01:42  <sim-al2> Perception is the key thing though, decent roads being regarded as new and liberating, and old slow railways as things of the past
03:02:00  <drac_boy> some people called these "mutant geeps" because they did really resemble a full gauge geep chopped down to the smaller gauge
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03:03:01  <sim-al2> Narrow gauges didn't help too much either, as cargo would need to be transferred, unless of course it was something like a railway internal to a steel mill or logging operation
03:03:22  <drac_boy> actually many of the 60cm lines were self-serving ... transloading was rather rare
03:03:46  <drac_boy> eg the vines would had end up right at the brewery or so .. and even timer lines went all the way to the sawmill as was at the time
03:03:57  <drac_boy> timer=timber*
03:04:54  <drac_boy> quarry did sometimes have transloading but that was only as it was easier to send the truck or train to a single stockpile point whereas the 60cm lines spread out like a spider web to haul the initial raw supplies
03:06:25  <sim-al2> Those Class 91-000s worked on a network of narrow gauge that servered a quarry among other things, but since that quarry is now closed the utility of the narrow gauge lines is decreasing, and most of the locomotives have been sold
03:06:50  <drac_boy> oh and sim-a12 some of the logging railroads might had shared same gauge but they were treated as isolated non-connect lines as to avoid the "mainline" regulations/etc for example
03:06:59  <Flygon> I know the 762mm tourist lines here (namely, Puffing Billy) actually manage to haul some Freight
03:07:10  <Flygon> But it's mostly token (eg. some extra money on the side)
03:07:13  <drac_boy> you should had seen these crazy tracks they sometimes built (even a 4-4-0 would had derailed on them!)
03:07:19  <Flygon> And I'm 90% sure just local goods
03:08:11  <sim-al2> True about the regulations, but there's ways to overcome that, i.e. transit systems that remove rails at their recieving sidings except when needed
03:10:50  <Flygon> (Noting that Puffing Billy itself's kind of lucky it didn't go 762mm>1600mm... in fact, part of the line WAS! VR hated running NG lines. They only did so because Parliamet forced them to.)
03:10:58  <sim-al2> There were some narrow gauge railways in Colorado that were very important freight haulers in the local area, but of course that traffic declined over time, and died off as roads improved
03:11:46  <sim-al2> Yeah, I have to wonder how much money was really saved with narrow gauge railways when tunnelling wasn't needed
03:11:47  <drac_boy> sim-a12 heres something that I don't think would had been allowed as a standard railroad! heh
03:11:49  <Flygon> (Parliament wanted EVERY town possible connected by Railway... VR did not want to build through dense rocky mountain range using 1600mm... cue the Government basically going "Fine, here's some $$$, build it as cheap as possible". VR still kinda all :| )
03:11:54  <drac_boy> and that was for 10+ years just like THAT
03:12:26  <sim-al2> Yeah, the biggest problem with that is that the trackbed WILL washout with time, and make a big mess
03:12:27  <drac_boy> if you look you can see the actual tracks submerged under
03:13:01  <drac_boy> sim-a12 .. actually the tracks were nailed to fresh-from-nearby timbers .. and they only had to periodically move the mud out of the way
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03:13:09  <sim-al2> Also, I'm sure the running gear doesn't like that either
03:13:27  <drac_boy> even the boiler water is taken directly from creeks from time to time
03:13:37  <Flygon> If you pre-fabbed Concrete and drilled it into the ground, with the rails bolted in
03:13:42  <Flygon> I don't think it'd wash out
03:13:47  <Flygon> But it's too expensive of a solution
03:14:05  <drac_boy> flygon yeah this is a  maintenance railroad :P
03:14:32  <drac_boy> they only finally got a diesel locomotive....and kept it restrained to simply doing sawmill tracks shunting
03:15:11  <sim-al2> I've read about the log thing actually, the earliest railways were built that way, but the normal trackbed was superior for the way most railways operated
03:15:45  <sim-al2> Modern slab track designs are a bit like that, but include vibration-dampening elements
03:16:00  <drac_boy> btw if you want worser: just drop the track right onto ground with zero ballast ... and just hope your suspensions are all extra-soft :)
03:16:29  <sim-al2> Heh, I think log railways tended to be that, as the track was temporary anyway
03:16:53  <sim-al2> At least, compared to any other railway
03:17:02  <drac_boy> well some lowly weekly-freight-only lines actually had little or no ballast .. cue a GP7 crawling at notch 1 ... bobbling like weird :)
03:17:27  <drac_boy> of course by now FRA would had classed such lines as exempted and no traffic allowed
03:17:53  <sim-al2> Quite a few branch lines were run into the ground that way, just stopped doing mainteance and hoping that the ICC would allow abandonment
03:18:18  <sim-al2> Hmm, that's actually an Unclassified track rating, freight only with a maximum of 10mph
03:18:30  <drac_boy> actually you remind me..some of the open quarry railways in britian actually basically just drop the track wherever it was required and used nothing but 0-4-0T's to shunt these tippers/flatcars around
03:19:26  <sim-al2> I don't think the FRA actually blocks traffic unless it's putting people in danger, but unclassified track is usually in extremely poor condition
03:19:34  <drac_boy> in one instance it was actually a dumping ground so the tippers ran to end of line and dump there..then when it got too full they simply moved the track a few hundred meters west (or east whatever) from current position .. then continue tipping more there
03:20:43  <drac_boy> btw FRA does have a class 1 (or was it 10? I forgot how the sliding scale worked) condition where the line is just ok for 15-20kph freight but absolutely no passenger service of any kind allowed
03:21:58  <sim-al2> Exceptd track is freight only, 10mph, Class 1 is 10mph freight, 15mph passenger
03:22:03  * Flygon rubs forehead...
03:22:16  <Flygon> FRA regulations are too schitzophrenic for me to trust
03:22:40  <Flygon> Such as The Acela Express locomotives being required to be weighed down with so much concrete that it's actually a safety hazard
03:22:41  <drac_boy> flygon, I hate north america politics anyway (and yes . politic=law period)
03:22:41  <sim-al2> There's geometry requirements that have to be met, nothing more than that
03:22:42  <Flygon> As a safety feature
03:22:51  <Flygon> Nevermind the complete logic failure
03:23:09  <drac_boy> flygon heh yeah the acela was a dumb mess .. not to mention not even being able to run push-pull so cue two overpowered locomotives on a short train
03:23:11  <sim-al2> There's no concrete that I know of, it's just that Tier 2 collision standards are rather high
03:23:22  <drac_boy> I think it was only recently that the acela train had more coaches inserted
03:24:03  <sim-al2> Having two locomotives made acceleration better, allowing the train to actually take advantage of its higher speed rating
03:24:16  <drac_boy> sim-a12 not really
03:24:21  <sim-al2> Also, I think more coaches were intended in the first place
03:24:48  <drac_boy> one single aclea had more than enough power even in winter .. and beside .. 4 coaches weights almost nothing (comically a single FT could had hauled it if it wasn't for the newer track speed limits)
03:24:49  <Flygon> drac_boy: In my rather frank opinion
03:25:06  <sim-al2> Lots of the line between Philadelphia and New York is very curvy, and widening the curves will be expensive
03:25:08  <Flygon> The Acela route would be better served by, say, VLos, or something equivilant
03:25:14  <Flygon> They're crashproof enough >_>
03:25:22  <Flygon> ie. blowing past LX @ 200km/h
03:25:30  <sim-al2> So better acceleration means actually getting up to speed on the straight parts
03:25:34  <Flygon> Of course, you'd want to reengineer them for EMU operation
03:26:13  <sim-al2> Also, the Tier 2 regulations at the time didn't really allow for cab cars (I think this will change, if it hasn't already)
03:26:28  <Flygon> But even the DMU versions probably accelerate better... and I'm sure modern Hydralic Transmission can do 220km/h...
03:26:39  <drac_boy> oh and as a dumb footnote: many of the japan emus are only like 40-70% powered axles yet many of these are used in every-seconds-counts tight highspeed services eh?
03:26:46  <sim-al2> Umm, New York Pennsylvania Station
03:26:52  <sim-al2> No diesels allowed
03:27:19  <sim-al2> (without dual-mode capability)
03:27:31  <Flygon> sim-al2: Yeah, but I was making an observation xP
03:27:35  <sim-al2> Also, the whole line from Boston to DC is electrified
03:27:58  <Flygon> That an Australian DMU would probably handle the Acela service better than the current Acela stock does atm, ignoring all FRA regulaton
03:28:11  <Flygon> In reality, yes, you'd want EMUs with similar crashproofing standards
03:28:25  <sim-al2> Shinkansens have more powered-axles though
03:28:31  <drac_boy> btw sorry about this but getting a bit late here and I'm not sure about the clocks tomorrow either ... have fun anyway
03:28:41  <sim-al2> Ok, night
03:28:44  <Flygon> Night drac
03:28:57  <Flygon> sim-al2: To be clear, I mean locomotive-less, no locomotive :3
03:29:05  <Flygon> But FRA regulation mandates locomotives
03:29:24  <sim-al2> The N700s returned to having powered axles on all but the end cars for bettter performance and braking regeneration
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03:29:55  * Flygon nod
03:30:18  <sim-al2> Flygon, those units better have tilt on them too, or they won't
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03:30:36  <Flygon> The VLos aren't designed for Tilt
03:30:39  <sim-al2> Also, the speed limits are going up to 165mph
03:30:45  <Flygon> Which, imho, is a complete design flaw
03:30:56  <Flygon> Ahh, I thought they topped at 240km/h (140mph iirc)
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03:31:39  <Flygon> VLo bodies and suspension can handle 220-230km/h well enough... but the Transmission and Motors didn't >_>
03:32:09  <sim-al2> Unfortunatly the average speed is much lower, but the new section through Rhode Island has long streches of 150mph (currently)
03:32:11  <Flygon> The only reason I'd suggest a modification of the VLocity design, is due to the Shinkansen EMUs not being designed to crash into a truck
03:32:27  <Flygon> If there was no level crossings
03:32:40  <Flygon> I'd just punch the "Import a Shinkansen N700 button"
03:32:47  <sim-al2> I think making a crash-rated Shinkansen would be easier
03:33:08  <Flygon> Easier than reengineering the DMU design for EMU?
03:33:27  <sim-al2> It's not like the modern Japanese trains aren't already being designed very carefully for passenger protection
03:33:39  <Flygon> Yeah, but they're designed to NOT crash
03:33:48  <Flygon> Not TO crash gracefully
03:34:46  <sim-al2> I don't see the advantage, and the JR East Shinkansens already operate in cold snowy conditions
03:35:07  <Flygon> Ooooh yeah, I forgot the USA gets far colder
03:35:22  <Flygon> The VLos only sometimes operate in Snow
03:36:02  <Flygon>,0.jpg And any xMU hitting a truck carrying rocks is going to have a bad day, regardless
03:36:15  <sim-al2> Bombardier is also not very popular with Amtrak, mainly because the HHP-8 locomotives were always trouble, and the Acela had all kinds of wheel and tilt problems early on
03:36:33  <Flygon> (most of the passengers came out alright... the 4 drivers didn't. Long story)
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03:36:48  <Flygon> Ooh
03:36:54  <Flygon> Yeah, I see the issue =/
03:37:01  <Flygon> Bombardier's been nothing but fantastic for us
03:37:12  <Flygon> I guess different regional divisions have different standards
03:37:21  <sim-al2> Yeah, the collision ratings aren't really based on passenger forces, but more like buff strength and corner-post strength
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03:38:03  <sim-al2> Unfortunatly, the buff strength rating is much higher than elsewhere, and scares manufacturers off because they can't reuse the body from their existing designs
03:38:30  <Flygon> With FRA standards?
03:39:11  <sim-al2> Yeah, I think the justification is that the car not be trashed if moved on the head-end of a freight train
03:39:17  <Flygon> Yeah, existing VLo designs (a branch of the design is used for commuter EMUs in Adelaide) aren't exactly designed to crash in the way the FRA wants
03:39:49  <sim-al2> There's been all kinds of official proposal for new standards, but it's taking a long time to happen
03:40:02  <Flygon> Whenever a VLo hits a car, it tends to result in the car being dragged by the DMU going from 160km/h to 0 >_>
03:40:26  <Flygon> The rock truck incident actually happened @ 120-130km/h
03:41:59  <sim-al2> Unfortunatly we have lots of railroad crossings still, so trucks have to be factored in safety concerns
03:42:34  <Flygon> Yeah. We do too.
03:42:53  <Flygon> Ideally.... we don't hit a truck. But if we do... well, as we found out, at least the passengers survived okay
03:42:58  <Flygon> Page 3...
03:43:08  <Flygon> The train-on-train crashes seem to actually be safer >_>
03:43:45  <Flygon> (VLo had a head-on with a Comeng due to speeding... and, probably, the Comeg's lights being broken. That last bit's still flamebait in the local rail community)
03:44:22  <Flygon> "For anyone who hasn’t driven a V/Locity, they
03:44:23  <Flygon> roll very well—probably better than any
03:44:23  <Flygon> rolling stock in Victoria—and can easily creep
03:44:23  <Flygon> up over the speed limit if you’re not watching
03:44:23  <Flygon> closely. "
03:44:29  <Flygon> Oh... that didn't copypasta well. Sorry.
03:45:28  <Flygon> But... yeah. I'm actually more worried about a train-on-truck incident locally than train-on-train
03:45:48  <Flygon> ...unless both're powering toward eachother headon, the train being hit will give way >_>
03:48:20  <sim-al2> Some of the recent crossing accidents have been rather ugly, and some concerns about new rolling stock design
03:48:39  * Flygon nod x:
03:48:50  <Flygon> There is only one real true solution, of course
03:51:51  <sim-al2> Expensive to get rid of level crossings in most places, as bridges or tunnels don't necessairly fit well
03:52:27  <sim-al2> Elevating the rail line would work, but that's beyond the funding level of most commuter agencies
03:53:30  <Flygon> Yeaah, elevating is the most sensible solution
03:53:33  <Flygon> With proper maintainence
03:53:39  <Flygon> The USA isn't good at the maintainence bit :(
03:54:52  <sim-al2> Noise would be a problem too, as the locomotives will be above people on the ground
03:55:48  <sim-al2> Also NIMBY-ism would be a barrier
04:00:16  <Flygon> ...
04:00:30  <Flygon> The noise is MORE easily mitigated with viaducts than at-ground
04:00:47  <Flygon> Noise barriers + Projecting all the noise UPWARDS, rather than horizontally
04:01:07  <sim-al2> Taking suburbs for example, people really hate structures being built
04:02:14  <sim-al2> Yeah, but without good track design, the concrete structures will radiate more noise outward. Also, consider that most commuter lines have at least a small amount of freight traffic too
04:02:24  <Flygon> Mm...
04:02:28  <Flygon> Ehh..
04:02:32  <Flygon> Scuse my language
04:02:35  <Flygon> But fuck the NIMBYs
04:03:15  <sim-al2> Yeah, but they have money, and there's widespread disapproval of government projects at any level right now
04:06:00  <sim-al2> The projects that are getting done are the usual continuous improvements, i.e. track, station, etc
04:07:23  <sim-al2> A lot of systems here are also replacing older equipment, especially with promise of new lighter passenger coaches, as well as more powerful locomotives
04:11:14  * Flygon nod
04:11:21  <Flygon> Of course, my critique with that, specifically
04:11:34  <Flygon> Is the total focus on the loco+carriage arrangement
04:11:51  <Flygon> V/Line's been trying to obsolete it hard, due to it's operational restrictios
04:11:54  <Flygon> restrictions*
04:12:29  <sim-al2> Yeah, but often the commuter systems have to be flexible since they run a variety of lines, like Metra for example has these 8+ car rush-hour trains
04:13:15  <sim-al2> GO Transit, the Toronto commuter rail system, has done a lot of research into alternatives
04:14:04  * Flygon nod
04:14:06  <Flygon> What happens here is
04:14:10  <Flygon> Is we just tape VLos together
04:14:29  <Flygon> We're moving to 3 car sets, so the likely end result for, say, Geelong crush load, is 3+3+3
04:14:45  <Flygon> I'm expecting 12 car VLos in future, with a 3+3+3+3 arrangement
04:14:59  <Flygon> Which will also likely create a hole in the Ozone layer above Victoria
04:15:05  <sim-al2> They put out a study a year or so ago, that DMUs would be cost-effective only up to regular use as 4-6 car formations, compared to using diesel locomotives or going electric
04:15:29  <Flygon> 9000 horsepower for a single DMU can't be wrong
04:15:46  <Flygon> needs 13 cars, to go over 9000 >_>
04:16:04  <sim-al2> Lol, DMUs would be rather useful if it weren't for the lack of infrastruture in many cities
04:16:40  <sim-al2> Amtrak already has a lot invested in their fleet of cars, and DMUs wouldn't do much for them
04:17:00  <Flygon> Lack of infrastructure? O_o
04:17:09  <sim-al2> There are a few DMU systems now
04:17:25  <Flygon> Half the reason we use the VLos so hard, is because they don't need much infrastructure :D
04:17:36  <Flygon> Just load fuel in, and they'll go anywhere, no turnarounds or anything :D
04:18:01  <sim-al2> I mean, cities in places like Ohio were they desperatly need transit systems but there's not real possibility of just building some stations and buying a few DMUs
04:19:30  <Flygon> Well...
04:19:36  <sim-al2> There's not really the long regional lines here anymore, it's either existing commuter systems, or new start
04:19:42  <Flygon> I wouldn't recommend DMUs for urban transit
04:19:49  <Flygon> They cost way too much to run
04:20:02  <Flygon> I bet you, VLo would rather run Electric versions of VLos if they could
04:20:36  <Flygon> But the Government doesn't want to stump up the cost for 200km/h capable 1500vDC, or adding 25kvAC to our existing electrical system, then making dual-voltage DMUs
04:21:08  <Flygon> The VLos are like Klingons
04:21:20  <sim-al2> In the sense of just starting something up, they would be nice. For example, there's a system being built in Sonoma and Marin counties in California (north of San Francisco)
04:21:24  <Flygon> They have a lot of redundant parts that render them nigh unkillable
04:21:35  <Flygon> But if something DOES break, it's a nightmare to do surgery on them
04:21:43  <Flygon> Because there's so many redundancy inside them...
04:21:47  <Flygon> And they're so mechanically comple
04:21:53  <sim-al2> They will be using this:
04:22:04  <Flygon> Ooh
04:22:12  <Flygon> I think I've seen those run about Africa
04:22:20  <Flygon> They're designed for 200km/h, iirc?
04:22:26  <sim-al2> 2 and 3 car trains, not particuarly low headways
04:22:45  <sim-al2> No, these are different, I think you've seen the Gautrain stuff in SA
04:22:52  * Flygon nod
04:22:59  <Flygon> Lemme check
04:23:18  <sim-al2> These are Nippon Sharyo, Japanese manufacturer that's a big deal in the US now
04:23:21  <Flygon> Ahh, no
04:23:25  <Flygon> Not the Gautrain
04:23:33  <Flygon> The ones I'm thinking of are SG
04:23:45  * Flygon nod
04:23:52  <sim-al2> These are good for 90mph, about 145 km/h
04:24:07  <Flygon> We don't have a huge much in the way of Japanese rollingstock here... there's a few historical reasons for this
04:24:17  <Flygon> tl;dr: The Japanese are stubburn, we're picky about how our stuff is built
04:24:21  <sim-al2> They have the same engines as the Vlocity btw, so I'm sure they could be run faster
04:24:55  <Flygon> They asked for our help with building DDEMUs in the 80s... then got into arguments with us about how to build DDEMUs. Nobody came out of it happy.
04:25:01  * Flygon nod*
04:25:05  <sim-al2> These are really meant for commuter/regional ops though, they don't have the facilties for more than a few hours runs
04:25:12  <Flygon> I understand it's a popular engine
04:25:47  <Flygon> The only DMUs I've seen that are really used for long distance are NSW's Xplorers
04:25:57  <Flygon> Such as the 11ish hour Broken Hill runs
04:26:00  <sim-al2> Yeah, seems to be all over the newer DMUs, worldwide
04:26:13  <Flygon> ...which are, incidentally, are the direct descendants of VLocities :D
04:26:25  <sim-al2> There's the WA Transwa DMUs too
04:26:41  <Flygon> Refit the transmission and engine, add a software update, and it's a VLocity for all intents and purposes :3
04:26:51  <Flygon> The TransWA DMUs are just VLocities with a different name :3
04:27:06  <Flygon> They came out about a year after, based on the same design
04:27:14  <sim-al2> In Hokkiado, the northern most Japanese islands there's long distance runs with tilting DMUs
04:27:21  <Flygon> Ooh, yeah
04:27:26  <Flygon> The ones that look like worms?
04:27:29  <Flygon> Out of TRON?
04:27:30  <sim-al2> lol
04:27:34  <Flygon> As in
04:27:38  <Flygon> If TRON had Worms
04:27:55  <sim-al2> Technically, the UK has some too, as the Voyagers often run across both electrified and non-electrified lines
04:27:58  <Flygon> These
04:28:29  <Flygon> Ahh, the Voyagers...
04:28:36  <Flygon> I do like the Voyagers :#
04:28:37  <Flygon> :3*
04:28:47  <sim-al2> Yeah, those. Unfortunatly, there was an accident where a driveshaft broke and caused a fire in a tunnel, that burned out the whole train
04:28:55  <Flygon> Fuck. Wow. x.x
04:29:01  <sim-al2> *JR Hokkiado
04:30:21  <sim-al2> No one got hurt, but the tilting was disabled and speed reduced from 130 km/h to 120 km/h. I'm not sure if the speeds and tilting will return, but the newest generation of equipment was canceled and will be more like the Kiha 261, which has air suspension tilting
04:31:58  <Flygon> Damn. :(
04:33:46  <sim-al2> The company was heavily criticized. It seems that in an attempt to get profitibility (despite being privatized, they are being funded by the Hokkiado government), they got rid of older experienced workers in favor of new-hires, and so the maintenace department was less experienced
04:34:20  <Flygon> Of course
04:34:24  <Flygon> The ONLY
04:34:38  <Flygon> ONLYYY reason JK Hokkaido is being bailed out by the Gov't
04:34:44  <Flygon> Is because, for all intents and purposes
04:34:46  <Flygon> They're bankrupt.
04:35:08  <Flygon> My friends and I suspect they'll get absorbed by JR East
04:35:09  <sim-al2> Some of the equipment is getting a bit older, the first Kiha 281's being from 1994, and they are heavily used
04:35:38  <Flygon> 1994 doesn't see that old... but
04:35:47  <Flygon> Japan has shorter lifecycles than Gaijin equipment >_>
04:36:05  <sim-al2> I don't know, if anything they will spin-off as much of the local lines as possible, keeping the Sapporo commuter traffic and the new Shinkansen
04:36:47  <sim-al2> Yeah, in this case it seems justified, as the conditions are harsh
04:36:57  <Flygon> Mm
04:37:19  <Flygon> The Shinkansen was suppose to save JR Hokkaido
04:37:27  <Flygon> But it's too little, too late, methinks
04:37:27  <sim-al2> I don't think 281s will be retired anytime soon, as long as the connection to the Shinkansen at Hakodate is needed
04:38:25  <sim-al2> Which could be like 2030
04:38:42  <Flygon> Dang
04:40:55  <sim-al2> Hmm, even weirder, the Shinkansen station is 18km away, so a shuttle train will be used (I think the diesel services will be extended there too, as the whole point of the new Shinkansen section right now is to make it a 2 seat ride to Tokyo, instead of 3 as current)
04:41:36  <sim-al2>
04:44:33  <sim-al2> Currently the system is like this:   On the 26th, the section through the tunnel to Hakodate will open
04:45:50  <sim-al2> But, the section to Sapporo will take much longer, basically because of mountains making the job difficult
04:47:19  <sim-al2> The sleeper services will also be obsolete, at least in their current form, after the 26th
04:48:45  * Flygon nod
04:48:52  * Flygon scratches head
04:48:59  <Flygon> It's a shame we lack such ambition here
04:49:13  <Flygon> We can't even build a simple HSR line across one of the world's busiest air corridores
04:49:34  <sim-al2> This has been proposed since like the 70's, but financial difficulties put it off
04:51:19  <sim-al2> It took boring the world's longest undersea tunnel too, 53.9 km in total, 23.3 km undersea, but it was served with narrow gauge trains until now
04:51:58  <sim-al2> Now it is dual-gauge, since freight traffic is pretty big between Hokkiado and the rest of Japan
04:52:37  * Flygon nod
04:53:12  <Flygon> (I wouldn't really call it finacial difficulties, btw, so much as our Government lacks ambition)
04:53:19  <sim-al2> The initial speed for the Shinkansen will only be 140km/h, since freight trains will be run around the clock
04:53:30  <sim-al2> *through the tunnel
04:53:36  <Flygon> (We've had the capability to come up to building it since the 1950s... but we were too Roads focused)
04:54:10  <Flygon> (up to then, 160km/h services with NSWGR was regular, and VR had similar capabilities)
04:54:53  <Flygon> (it's really not hard for me to imagine either railway developing for 200-220km/h speeds by the 60s... if anyone had the foresight to)
04:54:58  <sim-al2> I think the privatized JRs, especially East and West, are still servicing debit from the JNR Shinkansen projects...
04:55:07  <Flygon> They are
04:55:15  <Flygon> I mean, they were privatized BECAUSE of the Shinkansen debt
04:55:46  <sim-al2> Yeah, lots of interesting things happened in the 80's as JNR played around with saving energy and money
04:56:13  <sim-al2> Including making basically all commuter/suburban trains stainless steel
04:56:21  <Flygon> O_o
04:56:57  <Flygon> What did they use before that?
04:57:03  <sim-al2> Lighter weight, when combined with improvments to old resistor-based traction control, like regenerative braking, helped a lot
04:57:10  <sim-al2> Just regular steel
04:58:01  <sim-al2> The old trains only used dynamic braking, so the modern ones have half the energy consumption of the old ones
04:58:24  * Flygon nod
04:58:32  <Flygon> I assumed they went fully stainless by the 70s
04:58:43  <sim-al2> Rather nice for the underground trains too, as it saves on air-conditioning and stuff
04:59:12  <sim-al2> Tokyu built a lot of stainless steel cars, since they became a licensor of Budd in the 60's
04:59:16  <Flygon> ...then again, VR somehow managed to have Stainless Steel trains rust just 7-10 years after they were built (the 'Hitachi' sets. Noting that Hitachi only supplied the builders, the bodies were built by someone else
04:59:20  <Flygon> VR were pissssssed >_>
04:59:38  * Flygon nod
05:00:55  <sim-al2> Also TRTA and other went for it, but there were also a number of aluminum cars
05:04:23  <sim-al2> Budd style trucks too:
05:04:42  <Flygon> Oh, that's why my 48 tile long trains are unprofitable
05:04:55  <Flygon> They're taking over a year to reach their destination @ 66km/h
05:05:02  <sim-al2> Damn
05:05:13  * Flygon nod
05:05:15  <sim-al2> What year?
05:05:26  <Flygon> 1927
05:05:35  <Flygon> They're Quadruple headed, to boot
05:05:41  <Flygon> The wagons only support 71km/h
05:06:11  <sim-al2> Ouch
05:07:14  <Flygon> If they were triple headed, they'd stall going up some of the hills =/
05:07:22  <Flygon> I needthe AT&SF locos already...
05:08:03  <Flygon> And I thought my 12 tile long Coal trains hauled by a single Consolidation Loco were insane
05:08:13  <Flygon> But they only go downhill when full
05:09:06  <Flygon> They max at 71km/h due to downhill assist... but lose speed when they lose it
05:09:23  <Flygon> But by the time they hit their 'true' max speed, they're already braking at the station
05:09:52  <Flygon> Relaced them with SNCF 140C's
05:10:27  <Flygon> They don't fare much better, but it'll stop the game telling me my Consolidations are almost 60 years old
05:13:12  <Flygon> Very tempted to rename these 48 tile trains "Landships"
05:14:55  <Flygon> I'd use GWR 4900's if the Wagons had better speed limits
05:24:24  <sim-al2> Hmm, how much do the 48 tile trains make on delivery?
05:24:48  <Flygon> 320k
05:24:56  <Flygon> They'd make more if they weren't so slow
05:24:59  <Flygon> But they ARE profitable
05:25:07  <Flygon> Whel
05:25:07  <Flygon> p
05:25:12  <Flygon> Just shut down my first line
05:25:13  <sim-al2> Not too bad, how far do they travel?
05:25:19  <Flygon> Was run only by railbuses
05:25:54  <Flygon> Now replacing it with Buses and Trucks (Railbuses were 60km/h, RVs now can do 40km/h)
05:25:55  <Flygon> uuuh
05:25:59  <sim-al2> Heh, I almost never shut-down lines, although I sometimes do complete makeovers
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05:26:38  <Flygon> Approximately 800 tiles, sim-al2
05:26:57  <Flygon> Want the .sav?
05:27:00  <sim-al2> sure
05:27:08  <sim-al2> Also, dammmmnnnnn
05:27:10  <Flygon> I need to shut the line down to make way for a new line xP
05:28:09  <Flygon> Where the eff does OTTD save it's stuff again...
05:28:15  <Flygon> I remember when times were simple
05:28:21  <Flygon> When games saved everything into /Program Data/
05:29:02  <sim-al2> Documents\OpenTTD
05:29:12  <Flygon> Yeah, just found it
05:29:21  <Flygon> I never ever ever use My Documents xP
05:29:32  <Flygon>
05:30:23  <Flygon> It's, frankly
05:30:27  <Flygon> Not as realisitc as I'd like it
05:30:34  <Flygon> But operational costraints
05:30:48  <sim-al2> What map? I like
05:30:56  <Flygon> Iceland
05:31:02  <Flygon> It's on BaNaNas
05:31:40  <Flygon> Also, you can see where I removed the line xP
05:32:24  <sim-al2> Yeah, I though you meant something longer, I can see why you removed that
05:32:48  <Flygon> There's still one at Reykholt
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05:33:30  <sim-al2> Oh wow, that's cool
05:34:02  <Flygon> But... yeah
05:34:15  <Flygon> A lot of people hate me for going for asesthetics over realism xP
05:34:25  <sim-al2> Hmm, looks like you should get the WCG-1 soon
05:34:35  <Flygon> WCG-1?
05:34:37  <sim-al2> Oh right, electric
05:35:06  <Flygon> I need to electricy the Garour lie
05:35:07  <sim-al2> I would add a siding to the railbus thing, moving the coal transfer train over to the side of the mine
05:35:07  <Flygon> line*
05:35:11  <Flygon> And, frankly, redesign it
05:35:17  <Flygon> It didn't become as useful as I thought it would be
05:40:19  <Flygon> Still wish Level Crossings supported more than Single Track x.x
05:41:59  <sim-al2> That belt of cities around Reykjavik looks really nice
05:42:24  <Flygon> Mm
05:42:27  <Flygon> I do want to let it sprawn further
05:42:30  <Flygon> sprawl*
05:42:38  <Flygon> But I'd want to 'add' additional towns in first
05:42:45  <Flygon> That exist IRL
05:42:51  <Flygon> But that's for North
05:42:58  <Flygon> For South, only thing stopping me is procrastination
05:46:05  <Flygon> Also, listening to the DMG Smurfs music while playing OTTD is ridiculously calming
05:49:35  <Flygon> I'd release a 'remastered' version of the Iceland map with the towns missing added
05:49:43  <Flygon> But I don't think the author'd like that
05:49:51  <Flygon> I'd like to make a Victoria map
05:49:57  <Flygon> Of Australia state
05:49:58  <Flygon> But...
05:50:27  <Flygon> There's no way to simultainiously support Desert, Arid Grass, Lush Grass, Arctic Grass, and Snow simultainiously
05:50:37  <Flygon> Victoria's both a Desert climate, and Sub-Arctic Climate >_>
05:50:56  <Flygon> ...the Stork theme
05:51:08  <Flygon> The guy was clearly paid too much, he did a bang-up job
05:51:44  <sim-al2> Yeah, you can play around in the scenario editor to get some decent sub-tropical going, but I don't know about snow and different grass
05:51:51  <Flygon> Yeah
05:51:54  <Flygon> You can see the issue =/
05:52:02  <Flygon> And there's no way to LOCALIZE snow
05:52:06  <Flygon> If, say
05:52:14  <Flygon> A 8192*8192 map was possible
05:52:23  <Flygon> And I was feeling exeptionally unlazy
05:52:49  <Flygon> It'd be impossible to capture the VIC/NSW/TAS Alpine Ranges without making it snow on Uluru, and Grassy in the Simpson
05:53:09  <Flygon> But going by Desert climate, suddenly it's Dried up in Tasmania
05:53:28  <Flygon> When I'd more compare the Tasmanian climate to... a slightly less oppressive Norway
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06:15:35  <Flygon> Heheh...
06:15:44  <Flygon> One of Iceland's Highways is route 420
06:15:46  <Flygon> Heheheheheheheh
06:15:54  <Flygon> Still waiting for Route 621
06:16:38  <sim-al2> I think Colorado stop replacing the Milepost 420 after it got stolen a few times
06:17:30  <sim-al2> Looks like with 3rd gen tankers, your train will be "only" 33 tiles to have the same capacity
06:18:06  <Flygon> Didn't they replace it with 419.99?
06:18:13  <Flygon> sim-al2: I'll keep the same length
06:18:16  <Flygon> But use less trains
06:18:25  <sim-al2> Yeah, some fraction
06:19:36  <sim-al2> I actually think you need more trains, because some oil is decaying because the station rating is low
06:20:07  <Flygon> btw, with the scenario, note I can't type accents on my keyboard (US Settings)
06:20:19  <Flygon> And a lot of 'area' names are just best guesses
06:22:16  <Flygon> I'd love more trains
06:22:19  <Flygon> But I lack the $$$
06:22:32  <Flygon> It's around .5m per train
06:26:11  <Flygon> I do say
06:26:22  <Flygon> If I started in 1977 instead of 1877
06:26:28  <Flygon> There'd be WAAAAAY more Road Vehicles
06:26:40  <Flygon> Due to Iceland's... Icelandicness
06:32:54  <Flygon> sim-al2: There's also other more pragmatic reasons
06:33:18  <Flygon> Such as only wanting to manually rebuild a few small trains when I get access to the AT&SF
06:33:26  <Flygon> Then the Big Boy
06:33:39  <Flygon> The Big Boy likely sticking around until the 80s
06:33:41  <sim-al2> Good point
06:33:48  <Flygon> Which's an issue, because they expire before then
06:33:54  <Flygon> But no other loco quite bes good enough
06:35:12  <sim-al2> DDA40X?
06:36:26  <Flygon> Forgot the 2CC set has that
06:36:37  <Flygon> Still, it does require rejiggig the entire consist again
06:36:44  <Flygon> The key issue being the lack of TE
06:37:32  <sim-al2> It's still pretty high, around 500-600 kN
06:37:42  * Flygon nod
06:37:52  <Flygon> Running off memory here, I'll note
06:41:54  <Flygon> I think Airships are bugged O_o
06:41:58  <Flygon> They fly reeaaaallly low
06:43:24  <Flygon> I just wish I had better Seaships
06:43:35  <Flygon> And the ability to turn Mail off x.x
06:45:05  <Flygon> Annd Vittuuuuu
06:45:11  <Flygon> I gotta rebuild Kisubla Junction
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07:51:28  <Flygon> Njarovik is a pain to rearrange... @_@
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07:54:00  <sim-al2> Even in the save you gave me it's pretty tight
07:55:18  <Flygon> It's been made even tighter
07:55:24  <Flygon> Prepping for another two Pax. platforms
07:56:58  <Flygon> Which means Njarovik town itself is... uhm
07:57:01  <Flygon> Gonna be stuffed
07:57:07  <Flygon> UNLESS
07:57:14  <Flygon> I completely redo the freight bypass...
07:58:13  <Flygon> No... there's not enough room
07:58:39  <Flygon> It's one of those things where flexi-viaducts would be very very helpful
08:02:00  <Flygon> But rearranging everything AGAIN will be a nightmare
08:02:15  <Flygon> To separate 'express' passenger and freight
08:02:30  <Flygon> I'm only prepping for the 'stopper' passenger line. For 15 years time.
08:02:34  <Flygon> for in*
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08:05:54  <Flygon> Oooooh, shit yeah. Got access to the AT&SF now
08:07:04  <Flygon> Replacing 4x SSB C 5/6's (1,643hp, 215kN) w/1x AT&SF 5000 (5,779hp, 481kN) will save soooooooooooooooooooo much money
08:08:48  <Flygon> Oh my god
08:08:52  <Flygon> These 3rd Gen tankers
08:09:02  <Flygon> This's 1.5m/ltrs to 4.3m/ltrs per train
08:10:19  <Flygon> Still gonna replace with Big Boys, mind
08:10:23  <Flygon> But for now
08:10:25  <Flygon> It's the best
08:10:38  <Flygon> Esp. with me struggling to print $$$
08:10:59  <Flygon> The trains are cheaper, to boot
08:11:13  <Flygon> It's no wonder these locos got invented IRL
08:12:35  <Flygon> The real issue is
08:12:39  <Flygon> The trains are so long
08:12:45  <Flygon> They're a nightmare to get in and out of depots
08:15:25  <Flygon> Alright
08:15:29  <Flygon> First fully loaded about to take off
08:15:53  <Flygon> Taking of with Gravity assist
08:16:45  <Flygon> Aw yis
08:16:47  <Flygon> 80km/h
08:16:53  <Flygon> But with downhill assist
08:17:22  <Flygon> Oh der...
08:17:27  <Flygon> It loses speed climing Hills
08:17:33  <Flygon> But still faster than the C 5/6's
08:17:46  <Alberth> live comment on game progress :)
08:18:06  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
08:18:11  <Flygon> Bottomed out at 66km/h, thank christ @_@
08:18:13  <Alberth> lo andy
08:18:18  <Flygon> Oh
08:18:21  <Flygon> Read the wrong window
08:18:26  <Flygon> It bottomed at 69km/h >_>
08:19:52  <Flygon> 62km/h...
08:20:21  <Alberth> nah, < 20 km/h is slow :)
08:20:56  <Flygon> Oh, certainly. I'm just even more impatient for Big Boys now :D
08:22:16  <Flygon> What's gonna really suck, is replacing the double headed trains with single headed trains >_>
08:22:45  <Flygon> Kinda wishing OTTD had a replace consist with new consist feature... buuut... that's already been requested :D
08:24:17  <andythenorth> many times
08:24:35  <andythenorth> it’s one of the few worthwhile missing features imho
08:25:07  <Flygon> I aint gonna jab too hard about it
08:25:15  <Flygon> I've upset the coders too many times
08:25:23  <Flygon> I'm grateful for what we got
08:27:04  <andythenorth> Alberth: you’re slightly familiar with newgrf parameter window?
08:27:33  <Alberth> "slightly"?  :)      perhaps :)
08:27:38  <sim-al2> There's a Template Replace patch, you can find it in JGR's patchpack
08:28:02  <Alberth> depends on the precise topic
08:28:25  <andythenorth> wondering about parameter groups
08:28:41  <Alberth> :O
08:28:44  <andythenorth> progressive disclosure on a ‘+’ ‘-‘ type thing, like settings
08:29:00  <andythenorth> I think it’s lipstick on a pig really
08:29:09  <andythenorth> newgrf _shouldn’t_ have so many parameters
08:29:21  <Alberth> do these exist eg in action 14?
08:29:23  <V453000> pigpigpig
08:29:30  <Alberth> hi hi  V
08:30:19  <Alberth> do you know your nuts have a gap in early multi-engine setup?
08:30:20  <V453000> hy
08:30:26  <V453000> ?
08:31:18  <Alberth> I'll take that as a "no", let me make a picture
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08:33:24  <andythenorth> I think it would be quite easy to add group in action 14
08:33:40  <andythenorth> just add a group keyword, anything declaring that string goes in the group
08:34:12  <andythenorth> order within the group is derived from order of items when declared, as currently
08:34:29  <Alberth> V453000:
08:34:37  <andythenorth> “group = advanced_settings” or so on
08:35:03  <andythenorth> and also a declaration for a name string for the group
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08:35:18  <V453000> Alberth: consistency and 8/8 vehicles with small sprites :P
08:35:59  <Alberth> I don't remember having consistent gaps :D
08:36:20  <Alberth> but fair enough :)
08:36:50  <V453000> was there since version 0.0.1
08:37:47  <andythenorth> hmm
08:39:16  * andythenorth scratching head
08:40:44  <V453000> Alberth: today I would probably solve it by articulating a short wagon for 8/8
08:41:14  <V453000> might still do it one day
08:41:39  <Alberth> sounds like magic :)
08:41:55  <Alberth> was just letting you know I found it, nothing else
08:42:23  <V453000> wat magic? :D that it is visually shorter than logically?
08:44:04  <Alberth> no,  "articulating a short wagon for 8/8" sounds like magic :)
08:44:24  <Alberth> no doubt it's trivial if you know it
08:46:06  <V453000> eh it would be 4/8 engine + 4/8 wagon = 8/8 total
08:46:32  <V453000> all NUTS vehicles are 16/8 in total so it would just be 4/8 engine + 3x 4/8 wagons
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08:54:33  <andythenorth> newgrf parameters should have a console option :P
08:55:00  <andythenorth> console is the antidote to all over-loaded GUIs
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09:04:21  <Wolf01> o/
09:06:01  * Wolf01 returned to everyday life :(
09:09:04  <Alberth> the plane wouldn't leave without you?
09:09:38  <Alberth> fwiw, we're glad to have you back
09:11:29  <Alberth> andy: yep, people are too fond of 1000 words images where 1 word would suffice :)
09:15:24  <Wolf01> oh, the return plane was awful and I would have been really happy if it left without me
09:15:57  <Wolf01> I still have some back pain
09:18:18  * Wolf01 is logging into the bank account to check if the Kobe beef payment has been processed successfully
09:18:19  <Alberth> :(
09:18:49  <Wolf01> 500€ one dinner for 4 people :P
09:19:20  * Wolf01 would do it again
09:20:21  <V453000> gg
09:20:33  <Wolf01> mmh, I think the web will be off limits for the entire day... steam, and windows 10 all updating
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09:22:38  <Wolf01> quak
09:23:00  <frosch123> Hoi
09:23:09  <V453000> too many factorio saves on steam cloud? :P
09:23:47  <frosch123> Already?
09:26:46  <andythenorth> lo frosch123
09:27:12  <Wolf01> oh, I got kidnapped by the security at Schiphol, when the police station prepared my passport, they made a mistake with the plastification and it feels strange at touch...
09:27:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: we decidsd against Setting Trees för Ai/gs/newgrf before
09:28:33  <Wolf01> the funny part is "we made a mistake, but you shouldn't have any problem"
09:28:34  <andythenorth> no newgrf should ever need a settings tree....
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09:36:04  <V453000> xd
09:36:08  <V453000> how many parameters andythenorth
09:37:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: originally i also wanted to display the current production level as bonus
09:37:47  <frosch123> But it looked weird, soi changed it to an absolute percentage
09:38:10  <andythenorth> V453000:
09:38:22  <V453000> 's fine
09:38:28  <andythenorth> station rating should be deleted
09:38:45  <andythenorth> prevent industry opening, I don’t even know why I have that there
09:38:56  <V453000> yeah the station rating improving is just a cheat for no reason
09:39:01  <V453000> except andy likes to play with RVs :P
09:39:21  <Alberth> disabling breakdowns is also a cheat :p
09:39:23  <andythenorth> it was to enable using one long train per industry
09:39:27  <andythenorth> ‘realistic'
09:39:35  <andythenorth> now I just always have a train waiting, 5 tiles :P
09:39:46  * andythenorth has smoked coop crack
09:40:29  <andythenorth> station ratings should be a separate grf tbh
09:41:33  <andythenorth> so +1 to deleting that?
09:49:01  <frosch123> Separate grf sounds fine
09:51:21  * andythenorth might not _make_ the separate grf :P
09:51:26  <andythenorth> more of a theoretical solution
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10:02:26  <andythenorth> “Prevent industries opening during gameplay"
10:02:32  <andythenorth> that is not trivial for another newgrf to do
10:02:41  <andythenorth> do I have to keep that?
10:06:18  <frosch123> I guess so
10:07:04  <frosch123> Don't remove stuff for removal's sake?
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10:11:08  <andythenorth> overwhelming number of parameters currently :)
10:13:07  <andythenorth> hah
10:13:17  <andythenorth> custom station ratings _can’t_ be a separate grf
10:13:22  <Alberth> ever looked at a basecost mod grf? :p
10:13:25  <andythenorth> it’s cargo-specific, and FIRS provides the cargos
10:13:48  <andythenorth> yes, basecost grf is terrifying
10:15:08  <V453000> it isn't that overwhelming when compared to the shitload of content firs has
10:15:13  <V453000> don't worry about too many parameters
10:15:23  <V453000> being able to see the behavior of industries is very good to have
10:15:33  <frosch123> What is cargo specific about it?
10:15:41  <andythenorth> it’s a callback from the cargo
10:15:49  <andythenorth> there is nothing specific to the cargos though
10:15:54  <frosch123> Isn't it the same for all cargos?
10:15:56  <andythenorth> yup
10:16:03  <andythenorth> another grf could override that for every cargo?
10:16:05  <andythenorth> brute force?
10:16:14  <frosch123> So, not firs specific
10:16:27  <frosch123> Ithinkso
10:16:30  <andythenorth> yay
10:16:34  <andythenorth> win
10:17:14  <andythenorth> V453000: so what values are you going to set? o_O
10:17:20  <andythenorth> and why?
10:17:48  <V453000> would probably give more gung ho bonus
10:17:56  <V453000> but really, I would have to play and see
10:18:17  <V453000> if the defaults are working, then many parameters don't hurt at all
10:19:31  * andythenorth gives up starting quite often because it takes so long to set all the parameters, game settings, map options
10:19:51  <andythenorth> gamescript, town names, drive side, lang
10:19:53  <andythenorth> currency
10:21:32  <V453000> yes
10:21:41  <V453000> because the newgrfs you are using have not great defaults?
10:22:50  <andythenorth> nah
10:22:54  <Alberth> too many settings
10:23:00  <andythenorth> mostly I made them, mostly they don’t have params
10:23:02  <andythenorth> or few
10:23:12  <andythenorth> if I want different behaviour, I recompile them
10:23:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: if mines and farms had same supply requirement, we could express it in actual cargo value?
10:24:15  <andythenorth> ports can just be 2x that as a special case, or whatever, player doesn’t really need to worry about ports
10:25:03  <andythenorth> parameter description could mention that ports need more
10:25:20  <Alberth> andy: do you want more "this industry can practically throw its production to the receiving industry" reports?
10:25:26  <andythenorth> yes
10:25:28  <frosch123> Yes, ports are the only weird thing
10:25:49  <andythenorth> the lower threshhold for farms could be historical
10:26:00  <andythenorth> now the clustering is wider, and the base production is higher
10:26:15  <frosch123> I guess displaying the farm amount is good
10:26:28  <andythenorth> I’ll unify farm and mine requirements
10:26:44  <frosch123> Don't talk about ports :p
10:27:50  <andythenorth> just a thing you have to learn?
10:33:08  <frosch123> I never bothered how much i delivered to a port
10:33:17  <andythenorth> so base requirements are 14 for farms and 21 for ports
10:33:21  <andythenorth> oops
10:33:23  <andythenorth> 21 for mines
10:33:33  <frosch123> Primary Industries are the important ones
10:33:37  <andythenorth> and gung ho is just 4x the base
10:34:17  <andythenorth> I am wondering about making them multiples of 8 or so
10:34:19  <frosch123> Weren't ports like 10x requirements?
10:34:21  <andythenorth> yes
10:34:26  <andythenorth> or so
10:34:30  <andythenorth> 160 base
10:35:03  <andythenorth> 24 / 48 / 96 / 192 / 384 / 768 and so on
10:35:06  <andythenorth> does that work?
10:35:08  <frosch123> I don't get your gungho comment then
10:35:22  <andythenorth> yeah, sorry
10:35:30  <andythenorth> I will paste
10:35:37  <frosch123> Just make it a integer setting
10:35:47  <frosch123> Easier for everyone
10:36:10  <frosch123> A combobox is quite complex to code
10:36:49  <frosch123> Minimum 1, maximum 10k
10:36:56  <andythenorth> so absolute values?
10:37:05  <frosch123> Yes
10:37:06  <andythenorth> rather than a multiplier (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x) etc?
10:37:22  <andythenorth> I find the arrows weird to use on the integer inputs
10:37:27  <frosch123> Wasn't that the point?
10:37:31  <andythenorth> click, click, click, click, incrementing one at a time
10:38:23  <frosch123> Extend the description with a hint that you can doubleclick the row?
10:39:33  <frosch123> Anyway, those who want to change stuff in the first place also want to control all details?
10:39:59  <frosch123> Who would use presets?
10:42:33  * andythenorth :P
10:42:55  * andythenorth often thinks that those who most want to control stuff should also learn to code :P
10:43:48  <andythenorth> so this is the first change I’ll make
10:45:32  <Alberth> a lot simpler to wrap your head around
10:45:46  <frosch123> In my game i lowered enhanced, and increased gungho reqs
10:46:22  <frosch123> I would also recomment that for defaults
10:47:29  <andythenorth> what did you lower enhanced to?
10:48:42  <Alberth> "1"  :p
10:48:48  <frosch123> Like 5 or so
10:49:08  <frosch123> Basically 'any'
10:49:13  <Alberth> hmm, micro-managing distributors go wild :)
10:49:20  <andythenorth> you had vehicles that small? o_O
10:49:37  <frosch123> While gungho required a lot of focus
10:49:42  <andythenorth> sounds like the older ‘deliver any’ behaviour that seemed to be hated :D
10:50:06  <frosch123> It was some heqs railmotor with cap 4 or so
10:50:51  <Alberth> andy: those who hated it can adjust it now :)
10:50:51  <andythenorth> ah heqs :)
10:50:59  * andythenorth hasn’t used heqs for
some time
10:51:07  <andythenorth> weird grf
10:51:11  <Alberth> :)
10:51:13  <Alberth> bbl
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10:51:32  * andythenorth wonders if 16 and 128 are good thresholds
10:52:04  <frosch123> Also sounds fine
10:53:15  <andythenorth> 8x the required cargo for 2x the production :)
10:53:33  <andythenorth> but I might change the default production also
10:53:40  <andythenorth> 150% for enhanced
10:53:47  <andythenorth> dunno what for gung ho
10:58:10  * andythenorth wonders what the upper limits are for requirements express in crates
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11:08:13  <frosch123> Night
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11:10:03  * andythenorth wonders what timezone frosch is on
11:47:34  <Wolf01> night?
11:49:11  <Wolf01> mmh, I would like multi storey stations
12:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, given his usual nighttime of 23:00 (+0100), it would mean he's now either +14 or -10 :p
12:11:20  <Eddi|zuHause> plus a bit of variation in night time, could be california or hawaii
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12:13:28  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, it's probably not california, too late there
12:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause> could also be new zealand
12:18:22  <Wolf01> or japan, maybe I even met him
12:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> japan is probably too early
12:19:24  <andythenorth> does FIRS _need_ to show how much extra production you get for develiering delivering supplies?
12:19:28  <andythenorth> delivering *
12:20:03  <andythenorth> “
to increase production 360%
” is ugly
12:20:06  <Wolf01> its 21:20
12:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but he probably doesn't go to bed at 20:00 :p
12:20:44  <Wolf01> I did :P
12:21:11  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Australia IIRC
12:22:34  <andythenorth> it’s 22:22 in brisvegas
12:22:54  <andythenorth> maybe he’s gone to see Pikka
12:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that could be also, but my brain cannot handle daylight shifts in the southern hemisphere :p
12:23:12  <andythenorth> I have a phone app for it :P
12:23:22  * andythenorth calls australia about 4 times a week
12:24:11  <andythenorth> hmm
12:24:30  <andythenorth> does FIRS industry window need to show *any* information at all about production level / supplies requirement?
12:24:35  <andythenorth> can I just delete that?
12:26:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yes/no
12:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> games which have no indication as to their mechanics are terrible
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12:45:31  <andythenorth> is it also terrible to have ‘increase by 360%'
12:45:32  <andythenorth> ?
12:45:36  <andythenorth> 360% of what?
12:45:38  <andythenorth> base production?
12:45:41  <andythenorth> current production?
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13:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's just a matter of HOW to display it
13:15:41  <Eddi|zuHause> not about not displaying it at all
13:17:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "production level: medium; next production level: 12/50 supplies per month"
13:19:11  <Eddi|zuHause> also, gtg
13:19:25  <andythenorth> bye
13:20:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's election day. the current government might be voted out. and no new government in sight.
13:20:18  <andythenorth> larks
13:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and the fun part is, the "current government" is already both the labour and the conservative party together
13:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> if they both combined get <50%, you know something is not right :p
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13:45:30  <Wolf01> "Running biters over with a car or tank will make them aggressive in peaceful mode" meh... :D
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14:11:04  <V453000> :)
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14:56:59  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
14:57:12  <Alberth> hi hi
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15:11:23  <andythenorth> ugh, the text stack
15:16:52  <Alberth> nml doesn't do magic there?
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15:25:54  <andythenorth> seems it does
15:26:06  <andythenorth> if I didn’t have example from frosch, I’d never have figured it out though :)
15:26:12  <andythenorth> needs OR and shift
15:32:26  <Alberth> sounds tricky for some text
15:32:45  <Alberth> :O 896 ton of metal from a steel mill :)
15:34:36  <Alberth> some idiot built it on a mountain, which is clear a bad place for such a thing :p
15:35:51  <andythenorth> ha ha
15:45:11  <andythenorth> 1000% production for gung ho is ridiculous :P
15:46:05  <andythenorth> 35000 items of livestock per month
15:46:22  <andythenorth> or it’s a bug eh?
15:46:47  <Alberth> hmm, must do supplies to the mill :p
15:47:04  <Alberth> but yeah, sounds a bit much-ish :p
15:47:28  <andythenorth> it’s a bug :P
15:47:33  <andythenorth> the supplies code is brain-numbing
15:48:31  <Alberth> 3500 does sound like a lot already as input
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15:51:31  * andythenorth fixes that
15:52:02  <andythenorth> I don’t think the % boost is needed in industry window
15:53:41  <andythenorth>
15:53:48  <andythenorth> ^ I don’t think more than that is needed
15:54:10  <andythenorth> if player wants to know what boost, just watch the window for a month
15:54:17  <andythenorth> or check the parameter value they set :P
15:54:30  <andythenorth> or trust the defaults :P
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15:58:15  <Alberth> people like numbers :p
15:58:50  <Alberth> ever seen those city builder scripts? they just dump a silly amount of numbers in the window :p
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15:59:22  <andythenorth> don’t they just
15:59:28  <andythenorth> then the players ask what it all means
15:59:51  <andythenorth> I should put a note in the window: “It’s not about industry numbers, go and build some more trains"
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16:05:15  <Alberth> :)
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16:33:51  <andythenorth> dunno, I do prefer it with fewer numbers
16:34:05  <andythenorth> enough numbers in that window already
16:34:12  <andythenorth> not sure frosch will agree :|
16:36:19  <Alberth> yep, less numbers is better
16:37:14  <V453000> :(
16:37:17  <V453000> numbers are ok
16:37:17  <_dp_> moar numbers!
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16:44:01  * andythenorth invents evil FIRS
16:44:08  <andythenorth> ‘Enhanced’ production: 50%
16:44:13  <andythenorth> ‘Gung ho’ production: 25%
16:44:14  <andythenorth> :P
16:44:49  <_dp_> bad firs, won't get any supplies :p
16:45:59  <andythenorth> what’s the minimum sensible value for enhanced, as % of production?
16:46:02  <andythenorth> 100?  101?
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16:52:26  * andythenorth leaving a code mess :P
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16:55:10  <_dp_> 0? ^^
16:55:23  <_dp_> would make for a nice way of screwing up competitors xD
16:56:14  <andythenorth> yup
17:03:31  <peter1138> hi
17:07:33  <andythenorth> lo planetmaker
17:07:36  <andythenorth> err
17:07:47  * andythenorth will now leave in embarassment, auto-complete fail
17:07:57  <andythenorth> hi peter1138
17:09:58  <andythenorth> in what kind of lexical sort ir ‘pl’ before ‘pe’ ? :P
17:13:27  <andythenorth> Alberth: ? o_O
17:15:20  <Alberth> sneakily hiding a few parameters :p
17:15:30  <Alberth> looks easy to understand to me
17:15:57  <Alberth> you mention the "three months" period in the supply crate counts?
17:16:02  <andythenorth> yeah
17:16:10  <andythenorth> I’m not even sure that quite works
17:17:04  <Alberth> maybe we should have a "numbers" cargo :)
17:17:20  <andythenorth> ha
17:17:25  <andythenorth> required: 50 numbers
17:17:55  <andythenorth> I think this bit is done, but I’m not sure what to do about the ports
17:18:00  <Alberth> would make great cargo graphics :p
17:18:17  <andythenorth>
17:22:10  <Alberth> +1
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17:23:26  <V453000> nice
17:23:56  <andythenorth> currently the ‘amount required’ parameter doesn’t affect ports
17:24:03  <andythenorth> but the ‘amount produced’ parameter doe
17:24:05  <andythenorth> does *
17:24:07  <andythenorth> :P
17:24:18  * andythenorth might ship it that way and see what happens
17:25:08  * andythenorth wonders if this could have been two parameters instead
17:25:26  <andythenorth> 1) ‘Supply requirements: low | medium | high | very high | insane'
17:25:42  <andythenorth> 2) ‘Effect of supplies: low | medium | high | very high | insane'
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17:31:26  <Alberth> none :p
17:32:17  <Alberth> trouble is a bit what the base of gung ho is
17:32:41  <Alberth> is "low" relative to enhanced or to standard production?
17:32:55  <Alberth> but I like names :)
17:37:13  * andythenorth can see no good solution :D
17:41:14  <andythenorth> maybe I split ports production template, for starters :P
17:41:18  <andythenorth> and take ports out of this
17:44:41  <Alberth> haven't played with ports yet, still working on the steel mill tracks :p
17:44:53  <Alberth> what is the problem with them?
17:45:41  <andythenorth> they use the same code for boosting production as mines, farms etc
17:45:55  <Alberth> it's a pity you cannot have some values be represented by a name :)
17:46:06  <andythenorth> ? o_O
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17:47:15  <Alberth> then you could have numbers, but have some nice name for some of them, indicating a sort of recommended value :)
17:48:05  <Alberth> how is using the same code a problem?
17:48:17  <Alberth> that's an internal issue right?
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17:49:11  <Alberth> ie I don't care if you have completely separate code for each industry or not :p
17:49:37  <andythenorth> it’s more that the behaviour is connected
17:49:44  <andythenorth> but not in a way that is easy to represent to player
17:49:56  <andythenorth> so farm needs 16 units for ‘Enhanced’, port needs 160
17:50:11  <andythenorth> farm needs 128 units for ‘Gung ho’, port needs 480
17:50:23  <andythenorth> they seem quite different to me
17:50:28  <Alberth> why the difference?
17:50:43  <Alberth> oh, you have only one enhanced setting
17:50:49  <andythenorth> ports have 3 input cargos, all of them tend to be quite widely available
17:51:03  <andythenorth> ports are ridiculously easy with lower requirements
17:51:09  <Alberth> make enhanced + gungho settings for ports?
17:51:34  <andythenorth> moar parameters
17:51:40  <andythenorth> maybe that’s the only answer :)
17:52:11  <Alberth> you have less than 10 or so, doesn't look like a problem to me
17:52:23  <Alberth> as long as they have a clear meaning
17:53:24  <Alberth> you ever looked at the number of parameters of BB?  :p
17:53:28  <andythenorth> yes
17:53:38  <Alberth> it's ridiculous for such a script :)
17:53:54  <andythenorth> I often find I have set them wrong :)
17:54:14  <andythenorth> the town cargoes goal params I always leave at default :)
17:54:15  <Alberth> defaults are fixable :p
17:55:12  <Alberth> the duration is too long perhaps, we didn't change it after modifying how it reacts to deliveries
17:56:50  <andythenorth> for BB?
17:57:20  <Alberth> but imho, ports parameters are clear in meaning. It also makes more clear that ports are different from normal industries
17:57:40  * andythenorth wonders if ‘Gung ho’ can always just be 2x ‘Enhanced'
17:57:47  <andythenorth> does anyone really need to change that?
17:58:01  <Alberth> yes for BB, first the duration was for total delivery, now it's time to the next delivery, always
17:58:29  <Alberth> likely they will need
17:58:46  <andythenorth> hmm
17:58:50  <andythenorth> probably
17:59:12  <Alberth> you could reduce to one, as a multiplier from enhanced
17:59:22  <Alberth> but that saves you only one settings
17:59:24  <andythenorth> yeah
17:59:56  <Alberth> not worth the additional limits that you add, imho
18:00:18  * andythenorth wonders if this can be one parameter total
18:01:15  <andythenorth> “Grim and mean” | “Harsh but fair” | “Reasonable” | “Generous” | “Gushing over"
18:01:25  <Alberth> make a list with every combination :p
18:01:45  <andythenorth> I was too embarassed to post that suggestion
18:01:49  <andythenorth> but I seriously considered it
18:01:58  <andythenorth> one parameter, compound options :P
18:02:41  <Alberth> would be nice to have it, for people that don't like tweaking numbers
18:02:57  <andythenorth> people who can tweak the numbers could also recompile :P
18:03:07  <Alberth> you could do suggestions for numbers in the description
18:04:07  <Alberth> nah, tweaking a number in a newgrf parameter window is not quite the same as compiling a newgrf, in particular for MP :)
18:04:55  <Alberth> release a firs for every setting combination :p
18:05:00  <andythenorth> ha ha
18:05:07  <andythenorth> I think I have to leave it alone for a bit
18:05:22  <andythenorth> the I have no (good) idea what to do with it, and the code is becoming spiders
18:05:33  <andythenorth> I should put in this steel mill instead
18:05:56  <Alberth> :O   much better than default
18:06:17  <andythenorth> it’s from Oz (not OzTrans), years old
18:06:19  <Alberth> mostly because I have seen that one for a lot of years already :)
18:06:23  <andythenorth> never made it into game though
18:06:26  <andythenorth> Dan repainted it some
18:06:54  <Alberth> lots of details in the chimneys
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18:09:15  <andythenorth> ho
18:09:25  <andythenorth> maybe supplies behaviour shouldn’t be configurable at all? o_O
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18:10:30  <Alberth> why?
18:10:39  <andythenorth> simpler ;)
18:10:46  <andythenorth> simple wins?
18:11:00  <Alberth> then just skip opening the parameter window :p
18:11:02  <andythenorth> but even then...
18:11:15  <V453000> that is quite a nice steel mill indeed
18:11:23  <andythenorth> when I play NoCarGoal I want aggressive production from supply deliveries
18:11:39  <andythenorth> when I play Busy Bee, I want smaller amounts, Gung ho ruins my nice random networks
18:11:42  <Alberth> I think it's great you open up that mechanism, it makes people be able to tune the industry set
18:12:16  * andythenorth wonders how many people open the parameters
18:12:28  <andythenorth> and whether they ever discover economies
18:13:00  <Alberth> V can do a yeti advertisement for settung up firs parameters :p
18:13:50  <Alberth> you changed the default to "basic" in the climate they play, I hope?
18:14:44  <Alberth> but yeah, so many people are stuck in temperate, even in standard openttd :)
18:16:06  <Alberth> I wouldn't be surprised if some people don't know there are more climates :)
18:16:37  <V453000> yeti advertisement? :d
18:17:36  <andythenorth> I changed the default to Temperate Basic :D
18:18:02  * andythenorth awaits bug reports “I like the new sprites, but why did you delete all the industries"
18:18:04  <Alberth> close enough :p
18:18:25  <Alberth> haha :)
18:18:35  <andythenorth> ‘parameters’ is not a _great_ word for that button in newgrf gui
18:18:49  <Alberth> point to website:  see? not deleted
18:19:09  <Alberth> customize?
18:19:18  <Alberth> difficult word :p
18:19:30  <Alberth> enhance?
18:19:45  <andythenorth> ‘Settings'
18:19:48  <Alberth> tweak? tune?
18:20:14  <Alberth> settings in newgrf settings???  :o
18:20:24  <andythenorth> even settings need settings :P
18:20:29  <andythenorth> yeah not good
18:20:31  <andythenorth> brb
18:20:35  <Alberth> byue
18:20:40  <Alberth> -u
18:21:29  <V453000> instead of Parameters I would use Fuck Your Game Up
18:22:55  <Alberth> *beep* your game up :p
18:24:05  <_johannes> Hello
18:24:18  <_johannes> does someone know how to build headquarters?
18:31:40  <andythenorth> company window
18:34:25  <_johannes> ah thanks!
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18:45:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27523 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2016-03-13 19:45:37 +0100 )
18:45:48  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:49  <DorpsGek> latvian: 1 change by Jancs
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19:52:36  <drac_boy> hi
20:12:00  <andythenorth> Alberth, V453000 o_O
20:12:38  <Alberth> looks great
20:13:00  * andythenorth has a few tweaks to make
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20:13:18  <V453000> yeah something about the black furnaces doesn't fit FIRS
20:13:24  <V453000> but in general it is a great direction
20:13:41  <V453000> I think random bright pixels are the thing
20:14:00  <V453000> there are too many same-shade areas
20:14:48  <andythenorth> compare to
20:15:00  <andythenorth> it’s obviously not same style I guess
20:15:27  <andythenorth> the brick building is a very old, crap sprite of mine
20:15:32  <andythenorth> and the chimneys need work
20:15:34  <drac_boy> actually I like the chimneys on that one :)
20:15:49  <V453000> both are great
20:15:50  <drac_boy> heh ^
20:16:00  <V453000> the black one just needs some improvements
20:16:11  * andythenorth will cook, eat and improve
20:16:20  <andythenorth> I have ~1hr before sleeping is needed
20:17:24  <drac_boy> :)
20:19:22  * andythenorth drinks Czech wheat-free beer
20:19:25  <andythenorth> and thinks of V453000
20:19:58  <V453000> aren't you mixing up wheat and alcohol?
20:20:04  <V453000> would explain some problems in FIRS chains :P
20:20:42  * andythenorth couldn’t drink beer for 2 years, it was sad
20:20:51  <andythenorth> then I found wheat free beer, which is mostly crap
20:20:55  <andythenorth> but this Czech one is good
20:20:57  <andythenorth> RL story :P
20:22:23  <V453000> ah
20:22:31  <V453000> gluten thing?
20:22:45  <V453000> btw what is the beer called?
20:22:56  <andythenorth> CELIA
20:23:12  <andythenorth> not exactly gluten, but I eat the same stuff as people with gluten thing
20:23:35  <andythenorth> from Zatec
20:23:58  <V453000> right :d
20:24:01  <V453000> dont know that
20:24:21  <andythenorth> probably quite niche :P
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20:54:13  <frosch123> andythenorth: the 'recompile' argument is not valid for multiplayer:)
20:54:28  <andythenorth> ho ho
20:54:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: where are you anyway? :)
20:54:40  <andythenorth> weird timezone
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20:55:34  <frosch123> It's 7:55
20:55:47  <frosch123> Sydney
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20:58:56  <drac_boy> 16:59 here if that even matters ;)
21:01:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: so I’m currently ‘stuck’ on the production params, although it is shippable as it stands :)
21:01:25  <andythenorth> dunno if it’s good yet though
21:01:36  <andythenorth> but you probably need breakfast, not FIRS
21:02:43  <Alberth> it needs a breakfast industry too :p
21:02:55  * drac_boy throws some pixelated pancakes around?
21:02:56  <drac_boy> :P
21:09:20  <Supercheese> Syrup farms
21:09:27  <Supercheese> sounds perfect for Toyland
21:09:40  <Supercheese> Transport giant hotcakes on flatcars
21:09:45  <Supercheese> Syrup in tankers
21:10:19  <Supercheese> each refrigerated car has a single enormous stick of butter
21:12:24  <andythenorth> all too realistic
21:12:27  <andythenorth> these things exist
21:14:52  <Supercheese> giant hotcakes on flatcars?
21:19:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: without the numbers in the industry gui: does some random guy joining a aerver know what's going on?
21:20:05  <andythenorth> not sure :)
21:20:18  <andythenorth> another parameter? o_O
21:20:32  <andythenorth> More Numbers | Fewer Numbers?
21:20:54  <frosch123> Taking a look at the newgrf settings for that seems weird, though it is probably also the case for other settings
21:20:59  <Alberth> the "easy for random guy at random server" setting :p
21:22:05  * andythenorth wonders about that :P
21:22:07  <andythenorth> seriously
21:23:03  <frosch123> Nah, then firs also needs to disable town rating :p
21:23:21  <frosch123> I think numbers are fine
21:23:41  <frosch123> Kids should stay in school
21:24:56  <andythenorth> I am overwhelmed by the numbers tbh
21:25:01  <andythenorth> I just want to close the window :)
21:25:14  <andythenorth> maybe there’s some way to solve that though
21:25:29  <andythenorth> remove ‘Gung Ho’ and ‘Enhanced'
21:29:36  <frosch123> They need names for talking
21:30:08  <frosch123> But ok, skip the numbers
21:30:39  <frosch123> People also need to look up other settings
21:33:22  <andythenorth> something is unsatisfactory about all of it :)
21:33:28  <andythenorth> and I don’t just mean your patch :)
21:33:59  <andythenorth> maybe I should swap supplies for Yetis
21:39:23  <andythenorth> maybe it’s the ports :P
21:40:14  <andythenorth> should ports be just processing industries?
21:40:30  <andythenorth> output amount = delivered amount
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21:55:08  <andythenorth> primary industries just produce in direct proportion to supplies delivered?
21:55:14  <frosch123> Nah, ports are an easy early way to supplies
21:55:20  <andythenorth> and player can set multiplier?
21:55:31  <andythenorth> supplies in = primary cargos out?
21:55:50  <frosch123> Thats bad :p
21:56:09  <andythenorth> I think I have to add the parameters for ports also maybe
21:56:15  * andythenorth trying to avoid that
21:56:25  <frosch123> The levels make it interesting to supply multiple industries
21:57:13  * drac_boy pokes flygon with a hot bone
21:57:23  <frosch123> Anything continuous would either send everything to one, or it would be way too hard to balance
21:57:59  <frosch123> Ports are imho not worth the params
21:58:17  <frosch123> Just give them 10x requirements
21:59:16  <andythenorth> 10x works for enhanced
21:59:25  <andythenorth> gung ho, not so much :)
21:59:49  <frosch123> Hmm
22:00:50  <andythenorth> ports were always a hack :)
22:01:10  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, if you think it's going to be bad, it's actually even worse
22:01:24  <andythenorth> think I’ve found the limits of this particular hack, resp. code _and_ gameplay both
22:02:51  <drac_boy> :)
22:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> ugh, the text stack <-- the problem with the text stack is that it's not actually a stack. it has no "push" function
22:04:31  <andythenorth> is that why it never makes any sense to me :)
22:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly
22:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> but it mostly makes it annoying for me
22:05:36  <andythenorth> it’s a long time since I used it, but iirc it’s built as dwords, and (usually) read as words, so it has to be packed two values per register also
22:05:50  * andythenorth can’t remember, but saw some code for that today
22:06:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you also have to manually count the registers
22:06:33  <drac_boy> anyway going make some supper for now
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22:08:36  <frosch123> Bye
22:08:41  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: meh]
22:09:32  <Eddi|zuHause> election results kinda scare me. i should stop looking
22:10:21  <andythenorth> never read news before bedtime :P
22:10:28  <andythenorth> or first thing in the morning either
22:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that's like 4 hours away
22:10:40  <andythenorth> exactly
22:10:42  <andythenorth> 'before'
22:18:34  * andythenorth bed now
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22:50:21  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:46:09  <drac_boy> hi
23:48:54  <drac_boy> just wondering as I'm not sure how common they are but..any of you ever seen these turntables that basically look like a cd placed flat to ground .. rather than the other type where theres a pit in the ground and a bridge-like trestle sitting in center instead?
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23:53:07  * drac_boy also wonder if flygon is still asleep too :)
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