Log for #openttd on 9th April 2016:
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00:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> there's probably a --with(out)-lzo switch in ./configure
00:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but i have no clue how config.lib works
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00:30:05  <Eddi|zuHause> lzo is really only used for loading old savegames
00:30:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so if it's for personal use, you can probably live without it, but for a general audience you should maybe include it
00:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd expect it to work like "--with-lzo=<location>"
00:32:21  <Eddi|zuHause> ("old savegames" may include the title game)
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01:34:58  <suitsmeveryfine> Eddi: I'm not sure if you're still here but, yes, it's for general use.
01:38:49  <suitsmeveryfine> I can build successfully only with the "without" switch enabled. GuixSD is a quite different type of GNU/Linux distro where package names don't stay the same because they contain a unique hash. Therefore I can't easily make use of "--with-lzo=<location>"
01:40:19  <suitsmeveryfine> I'm going AFK now, but thanks for answering my question.
01:40:40  <suitsmeveryfine> Good night
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06:55:02  <andythenorth> o/
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07:10:12  <peter1138> no
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07:18:04  <peter1138> grrr, waited ages for delivery, then it gets delivered on a saturday... to work address...
07:18:20  <peter1138> (so rather, not delivered)
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07:54:07  <V453000> btw, the shit with train stretching from openttd, on drugs
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08:13:50  <peter1138> yikes
08:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so your squares are not actually square, but you'd still like it to occupy exactly a "square"?
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09:14:10  <Wolf01> o/
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09:30:01  <V453000> yeah pretty much Eddi|zuHause
09:31:27  <V453000> same as what it does in openttd, you want the train look like it takes half a tile on diagonals, basically
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09:37:55  <Wolf01> V453000:, why not just using a bounding box for the train base to know where inserters can load instead of making the top inserter load on the wagon roof? so you can use a longer graphic to fill the gap
09:38:34  <V453000> well there will even be a helper GUI to clearly see which inserter loads from which
09:38:38  <V453000> but the graphics are the actual issue
09:40:38  <Wolf01> I think the graphics shouldn't be directly used as boundingbox for the functionality
09:41:11  <V453000> but how do you think to fill the gap? stretched graphics, fillers, bigger gaps between wagons?
09:41:24  <V453000> making it look nice with either or all of those things is the challenge
09:41:30  <Wolf01> I'll make a picture
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09:43:21  <Samu> hi
09:47:38  <Wolf01> V453000,!23524&authkey=!ADwe-pyzZEwqRXU&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
09:48:09  <V453000> yes
09:48:22  <V453000> the issue is to make the transition from shorter to longer train look nice
09:48:33  <V453000> I believe I will be able to solve it as I did similar  tests in openttd, but it isn't easy
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09:56:28  <Wolf01> I like the idea of the limit of 6 inserters and fixing the vertical length with the graphic stretching it could be a good option, the wagon looks like rubber on the gif, but you don't really see wagons rotating in that way on the game (or are you planning to add turntables?) and I think you won't even notice the stretching
10:09:02  <V453000> lol at turntables
10:09:04  <V453000> and yes
10:09:14  <V453000> *no to turntables :P
10:09:24  <Wolf01> it will break hard the station layouts, but who cares?
10:09:54  <Wolf01> it's the target of the game to actually build and rebuild and rebuild and rebuild everything
10:13:25  <V453000> well 0.13 has so many features that the idea of keeping compatibility is pretty overruled :D
10:13:34  <V453000> it should be mostly compatible but...
10:17:02  <Wolf01> it happened with the belts-unloading-on-the-ground too and the inserters loading point on 0.12
10:17:16  <Wolf01> we lived with that :)
10:22:00  <V453000> yes
10:36:47  <Samu> hey guys, today i'm investigating openttd memory usage when saving a game
10:37:28  <Samu> some interesting results
10:38:34  <Samu> there's the whole raw game state + the memcopy + mem used by lzma
10:39:00  <Samu> that's quite some overhead
10:41:47  <Samu> on 32-bit copy of open ttd, the 4096x4096 map size is frightening
10:42:11  <Samu> it borders up to 1.700k for openttd.exe process
10:42:47  <andythenorth> power plant accepts coal eh?
10:42:55  <andythenorth> I love these heisenbugs
10:42:58  <andythenorth> they’re just great
10:43:29  <andythenorth> perhaps my text editor is transposing this?                     accept_cargo_types: [cargotype("COAL")];
10:43:35  <Samu> does openttd actually crash with out of memory? do u get such crash reports?
10:43:43  <andythenorth> perhaps on disk, the bytes have actually been written for “BEER”
10:43:49  <andythenorth> but my OS is lying to me?
10:44:01  <planetmaker> Samu, yes, that happens
10:44:34  <Samu> i see :o
10:44:42  <planetmaker> Samu, if it tries to allocate memory it needs, but it can't get it, then it has no other option than to stop working
10:45:25  <planetmaker> the crash report will tell you that it failed because of OOM
10:46:06  <planetmaker> 256M was too little for our server with 1k^2 maps
10:50:43  <Samu> is there a limit for AI mem usage? some years ago, they could allocate whatever they wanted, was this changed?
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11:01:45  <Samu> if i can figure out the memcopy size, i can isolate and calculate the mem used by lzma only
11:02:00  <Samu> it appears to be ~18MB
11:02:33  <Samu> memcopy is by my estimate, ~170+ MB
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11:07:49  <Samu> ok memcopy was 174.924k
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11:09:23  <Samu> 888.832 + 174.924 + x = 1.079.204
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11:09:36  <Samu> x = lzma mem usage
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11:10:54  <Samu> x = 15.448
11:11:06  <Samu> not bad :o
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12:12:02  <Wolf01> V453000, do you know if it is in the air a change about the chests slot reservation/limit? It would be really cool to reservate quickly a bunch of slots for the same item (I usually fill the wagons with wooden crate and then change only the slots I need)
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12:41:32  <Samu> 16.432k
12:43:19  <Samu> 16.432k +/- 920k
12:44:49  <Samu> i can pinpoint openttd lzma mem usage to about 16.432KB +/- 920KB
12:48:26  <Samu> memcopy was 173.016KB +/- 920KB
12:49:18  <Samu> and the rest of openttd process was 888.452KB +/- 920KB
12:52:08  <Samu> 888.452KB + 173.016KB + 16.432KB = 1.077.900KB +/- 920KB total peak mem usage for creating a savegame
12:53:21  <Samu> of a map sized 4096x4096 without any transport services being run yet
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13:11:41  <drac_boy> hi
13:21:13  <Samu> hi
13:22:27  <drac_boy> how doing?
13:50:42  <Samu> I'm doing stuff no one cares about
13:53:30  <drac_boy> heh?
13:54:48  <drac_boy> anyway going for a bit..may be bakc later
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14:05:25  <Samu> is the raw uncompressed data from a savegame a hash chain or a binary tree? or does this question make no sense?
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14:22:23  <Samu> anyone knows?
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14:38:20  <peter1138> it's raw data
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14:41:38  <andythenorth> is cat
14:41:44  <andythenorth> almost certainly
14:41:46  <andythenorth> most things is
14:42:32  <Alberth> o/
14:42:46  <Alberth> solved the alcohol mystery?
14:43:13  <andythenorth> nah
14:43:55  <andythenorth> not a clue
14:46:09  <andythenorth> can’t even repro it by changing grfs (or parameters) on a running game
14:46:32  <Alberth> works for me too
14:46:46  <andythenorth> it’s a bug in openttd, or a bug in the bug report
14:47:00  <andythenorth> or a bug in nmlc
14:47:12  <andythenorth> but only affecting certain users
14:47:12  <andythenorth> :P
14:47:25  <andythenorth> or FIRS compile is non-deterministic
14:47:44  <andythenorth> if I had to put €5000 on this, it wouldn’t be on the FIRS compile or nmlc :P
14:48:30  <Alberth> fair enough :)
14:48:48  <Alberth>   extreme @ 128x128, perhaps a bit too busy? :D
14:49:28  <andythenorth> looks about right to me
14:49:37  <andythenorth> did you get 1 of each industry?
14:53:03  <Alberth> almost, 1950, no recycling (2 industries), no oilrig, no biorefinery, and no smithy forge
14:53:09  <Alberth> looks right to me
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15:14:29  <supermop> hello
15:14:42  <supermop> need to get some pogs printed
15:18:22  * andythenorth considers ‘build a cat’ feature for OpenTTD
15:18:29  <andythenorth> srsly, grow the user base
15:21:37  <supermop> hot tub in england?
15:21:51  <andythenorth> inflatable
15:22:03  <supermop> inflatable hot tub?
15:22:15  <Alberth> owning a hot tub, and using it are two different things :p
15:22:32  <andythenorth> cat is on it, can’t use it
15:22:36  <supermop> also: slowly turn openttd into neko atsume
15:22:48  <supermop> or whatever that game is called
15:23:16  * andythenorth bbl
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15:29:49  <supermop> ok going to do more suit shopping
15:30:05  <supermop> might get a very german hugo boss one
15:30:44  <supermop> navy with multicolored flecks like a VW harlequin polo
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16:17:54  <frosch123> @seen terkhen
16:17:54  <DorpsGek> frosch123: terkhen was last seen in #openttd 9 weeks, 0 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Terkhen> Hello
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17:07:42  <Samu> give me your first impressions:
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17:08:11  <Alberth> OMG, a link
17:08:14  <Alberth>   :)
17:08:57  <Alberth> first AI is a human player?
17:09:20  <Samu> no, it's a real human player, my company
17:10:23  <Alberth> what's the colors about?
17:10:54  <Samu> red indicates an AI that started, but IsDead()
17:11:11  <Samu> green indicates an AI that started, still living
17:11:49  <Samu> orange means... AIs that didn't start, but the slots are configurable
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17:12:24  <Samu> red slot is also configurable
17:12:37  <Samu> green is not
17:12:40  <Samu> silver is not
17:12:57  <Alberth> how is this configuration? I would expect a configuration to be separate from the actual companies
17:13:21  <Alberth> if I specify an AI, I don't specify "living" or "dead"
17:14:45  <Alberth> I wonder if "AIs" should really be companies
17:16:58  <Samu> sorry i dont understand the question
17:17:26  <andythenorth> is the FIRS bug fixed yet?
17:18:38  <Samu> when clicking a red or orange slot from the list, the "Select" and "Configure" buttons can be clicked
17:18:58  <Samu> you can switch to another AI script, define the new script parameters
17:19:21  <Alberth> the point is that in this window, you are now mixing game play progress and pre-game configuration
17:19:39  <Samu> but to start it, you have to do to AI debug window and click "Reload AI" - it re-rolls the slot with the new script you've set
17:19:45  <frosch123> andythenorth: the plural thing will be fixed in eints
17:20:06  <andythenorth> good :)
17:20:17  <andythenorth> I was referring to this power plant that accepts alcohol
17:20:22  <andythenorth> which I can see right now in game
17:20:44  <Samu> go to* typo
17:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> started a new game?
17:21:43  <Samu> hmm, what do you suggest me to do?
17:21:50  * andythenorth is confused
17:22:04  <Alberth> Samu: I am wondering about that
17:22:07  * Eddi|zuHause is annoyed
17:22:16  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ? o_O
17:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i upgraded my OS
17:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and there are a million tiny problems
17:22:49  <Samu> so it's a bad idea?
17:23:19  <Alberth> Samu:  I didn't say that, I am just not sure how to go further
17:23:26  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: switch to OS X , and have just a few really big problems? o_O
17:23:33  <andythenorth> and someone to blame for them?
17:23:38  <andythenorth> and no way to fix them
17:23:45  <Alberth> Samu: you want a more company number oriented allocation, I guess?
17:24:10  <andythenorth> wtf, how did he get power plants onto this map?
17:24:32  <andythenorth>
17:24:43  <andythenorth> it’s in Temperate Basic economy, there are no power plants
17:24:52  <andythenorth> and it’s not a newgrf industry, there’s no debug icon
17:25:12  <Samu> in my opinion, yeah, since the slot is also tied with the ai debug window
17:25:25  <Samu> the positioning
17:25:44  <Alberth> andythenorth: alcohol slot matches with original coal?
17:25:50  <Samu> slot 1 = company 1 = ai debug 1
17:25:58  <Samu> slot 2 = company 2 = ai debug 2
17:26:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: yes
17:26:48  <Alberth> Samu: right. Here you are doing configuration, so I'd only show whether or not you can configure a slot
17:26:53  <supermop> andythenorth: if high enough proof, maybe the power plant is burning spirits?
17:27:06  <Alberth> or sprites?
17:27:09  <andythenorth> maybe, but also something is broken :(
17:27:11  <supermop> not a bug, it's a feature
17:27:23  * andythenorth is annoyed
17:27:37  <supermop> environmentally friendly ethanol burning power plant
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17:28:04  <supermop> the plant is a default industry?
17:28:21  <Samu> i am currently only allowing slot configuration for AI which IsDead() = true.
17:28:47  <Alberth> and all beyond the max competitors?
17:28:48  <frosch123> supermop: i would rather suspect the employees dringking it
17:29:04  <andythenorth> this player has managed to get 5 power plants onto this map
17:29:07  <Alberth> pure alcohol? not a good idea :)
17:29:12  <andythenorth> they do not show in the minimap
17:29:18  <Alberth> :O
17:29:20  <andythenorth> but they are in the industry list as <invalid industry>
17:29:40  <Alberth> game log clean?
17:30:00  <andythenorth> how do I check?
17:30:03  <Samu> yesterday I tried configuration for AIs which were still alive, but that caused some issues with the script that was running
17:30:24  <Alberth> type gamelog in console check for not having modified newgrfs ater time  = 0
17:30:25  <glx> usually <invalid> stuff comes when grf are changed in a running game
17:31:08  <Alberth> Samu: yeah, that sounds like a bad idea :)
17:31:24  <andythenorth> I miss loads of the grfs
17:31:37  <andythenorth> and my internet connection is currently about 5KB/s :x
17:31:39  <Samu> I am unsure if it can be done for dead AIs, i don't suppose they would come to life once they die, or do they?
17:31:43  <frosch123> that save has no weird powerplants?
17:31:51  <andythenorth> that save has 5
17:32:08  <Eddi|zuHause> missing grfs will certainly cause <invalid> stuff :p
17:32:09  <andythenorth> but I miss so many grfs here that all bets are off
17:32:10  <frosch123> yes, but they are grf provided
17:32:16  <frosch123> and not called <invalid industry>?
17:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause> why even bother us when you have missing grfs?
17:33:00  <andythenorth> because I can’t fricking download them :(
17:33:00  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: only weirdos have the separator grfs
17:33:02  <frosch123> not even i do
17:33:09  <Samu> ok let me upload this patch
17:33:12  <Samu> brb
17:33:28  <Alberth> andythenorth:  gamelog looks clean
17:33:30  <andythenorth> debugging other people’s crap with a failed internet connection and a broadband provider status page showing only green lights
17:33:38  <Alberth> but maybe one of the newgrfs enables industry?
17:33:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: to me it looks like the power station is just provided by firs
17:34:03  <frosch123> you can even fund new ones
17:34:29  <andythenorth> how do FIRS version numbers work?  They make no sense to me
17:34:49  <frosch123> you mean the 5935?
17:34:51  <andythenorth> I have to find the right version of FIRS, and o/c I have thousands to choose from
17:34:52  <andythenorth> yes
17:35:02  <frosch123> it's the date of the commit
17:35:19  <andythenorth> days since...?
17:35:21  <frosch123> in days since 2000-01-01
17:35:25  <Alberth> loaded compatible newgrfs after a game load though
17:36:36  <Alberth> nvm, that was me :p
17:37:26  <frosch123> andythenorth: i still don't get it... i used the bananas version to load the save
17:37:37  <andythenorth> the bananas version isn’t 2.0.0?
17:37:52  * andythenorth doesn’t understand the versions tbh
17:37:54  <frosch123> it is
17:38:04  <Alberth> hmm, I  have "coal"  :p
17:38:09  <andythenorth> the filename isn’t 2.0.0
17:38:58  <andythenorth> I have just built the 2.0.0 tag
17:39:04  <andythenorth> I get v5943
17:39:18  <andythenorth> the one in the save is 5935
17:39:27  <frosch123> andythenorth:
17:39:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: just download firs from bananas?
17:40:04  <andythenorth> apparently I did already
17:40:16  <andythenorth> bananas refuses to download it
17:40:24  <frosch123> do you have multiple firs_2-2.0.tar on your disk?
17:40:30  <andythenorth> yup
17:40:37  <andythenorth> I just built one
17:40:39  <frosch123> ok, delete them :)
17:40:51  <frosch123> ottd cannot distinguish tars with same name
17:44:53  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, the industry is named "power station", not "power plant"
17:45:47  <andythenorth> I just have <invalid name>
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27537 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2016-04-09 19:45:38 +0200 )
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:50  <DorpsGek> korean: 2 changes by telk5093
17:47:05  <Samu> Alberth:
17:48:29  <frosch123> andythenorth: land info tool says "pre-industrial era houses"
17:48:40  <frosch123> so, another grf defines industries
17:49:01  <andythenorth> I’ll need to add a compaibility check for that :)
17:49:03  <andythenorth> thanks
17:49:07  <Alberth> samu: this is about 15 competitors?
17:49:32  <Samu> yes, that too
17:49:50  <Samu> it's also included
17:54:27  <Alberth> can you just for the total number of valid industries instead?
17:54:51  <Alberth> you know how many to expect, so any deviation means broken sutff
17:55:13  <Alberth> +check
17:58:48  <andythenorth> interesting idea
17:59:07  <andythenorth> not sure that can be done in the action where the checks are handled
17:59:40  <Alberth> you can skip your own :)
18:01:33  <andythenorth> there should be some kind of online global grf registry :P
18:01:46  <andythenorth> which maintains a compatibility matrix
18:01:49  <andythenorth> ugh
18:02:26  <Sylf> I don't think not even the newgrf authors know the full compatibility issues
18:03:11  <andythenorth> thanks for replying in the thread btw Sylf
18:03:31  <Sylf> that was one of the weirdest issue I've seen in recent days
18:06:38  <andythenorth> I forget why the FIRS version isn’t just the commit hash
18:06:41  <andythenorth> there is a reason
18:08:06  <Alberth> deciding which one is newer
18:08:48  <andythenorth> of course :)
18:09:11  <Alberth> I can't understand how git devs expect us to handle that
18:10:02  <Alberth> but they might believe everybody wants to be a git wizard
18:10:41  <andythenorth> look at current tree, see where hash is
18:10:50  <supermop> Sylf: did you used to live in tokyo?
18:11:12  <andythenorth> date-based versioning against specific commits is weird if you’re merging a lot of feature branches
18:11:58  * andythenorth is guessing, doesn’t know
18:12:00  <Alberth> a few days ago I needed "something newer than where I was"
18:12:10  <Sylf> Never lived in Tokyo.
18:12:23  <Sylf> Grew up near Nagoya
18:12:32  <Alberth> which would be trivial in svn and hg  :)
18:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i always found the date-based versioning odd
18:16:13  <Samu> I'm editing the first post of that topic, to better explain everything what this patch do.
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18:25:13  * andythenorth wonders if FIRS can just do x.y.z for compatible versions
18:25:24  <sim-al2> .lastseen drac_boy
18:25:33  <sim-al2> .seen drac_boy
18:25:35  <andythenorth> I care not about breaking nightlies
18:25:44  <Alberth> @seen drac_boy
18:25:44  <DorpsGek> Alberth: drac_boy was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 30 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <drac_boy> anyway going for a bit..may be bakc later
18:25:51  <sim-al2> Oh thanks
18:25:59  <andythenorth> x.y.z might be problematic with RCs
18:26:31  <Alberth> x.y.z-RCn
18:28:09  <andythenorth> how does openttd actually check?  just x > y ?
18:28:23  <andythenorth> where x is current grf version and y is min. version
18:31:04  <frosch123> >=, but yes
18:31:21  <frosch123> matching md5 goes first
18:31:47  <frosch123> then largest version number with version-in-save >= min-compatible
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18:42:14  <supermop> ah, ok. I cant find any pictures of what the first couple generations of tokyo monorail looked like in the 60s and 70s
18:42:32  <andythenorth> make it up
18:42:40  <andythenorth> use the osaka one
18:43:48  <andythenorth> supermop:
18:44:31  <supermop> oldest osaka one is 1990 and i already have that one standing in for 2nd or 3rd generation
18:44:36  <Sylf> supermop:  like these?
18:45:12  <supermop> so looks like a normal 60s JR EMU i guess?
18:45:14  <andythenorth>
18:45:27  <andythenorth> they’re just boxes at TTD scale
18:45:38  <andythenorth> just use the same one, and change the livery
18:45:53  <andythenorth> add / remove white
18:46:01  <andythenorth> or 2CC
18:46:27  <Sylf> yeah, it looks like it.  Maybe a bit shorter.
18:46:31  <supermop> this livery would look good and 60s ish
18:46:33  <supermop>
18:49:23  <supermop> andythenorth: 1 tile long train made up of 5/6/5 kosher for IH, or must be 8/8?
18:50:37  <andythenorth> 5/6/5 is fine
18:50:52  <supermop> 5/8 in the / | views is a pain
18:51:06  <supermop> non-integer pixel length
18:51:18  <andythenorth> all / views are a pain :)
18:51:31  <V453000> 5/8 sounds like a terrible idea
18:51:36  <V453000> no real benefit over 4/8
18:51:53  <supermop> V453000: 5+6+5 adds up to 16
18:52:03  <supermop> 4+4+4+4 too fiddly?
18:52:06  <V453000> ok at least that XD
18:52:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i used 4/8/4 for 1 tile
18:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> also, why would 5/8 be non-integer? each 1/8 is 1px up and 2px over
18:53:04  <supermop> 6+4+6 maybe better - then cab cars are a tad longer
18:54:51  <supermop> the template im working from has 8/8 as 20px long, 10px up in / view
18:54:52  <andythenorth> if you draw enough, you’ll end up favouring 8/8
18:55:00  <andythenorth> because that’s less drawing :P
18:55:07  <andythenorth> only one sprite needed, not two
18:55:50  <supermop> unless thats totally wrong?
18:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that just needs the right templates :p
18:56:16  <supermop> andythenorth: how long is IH pony 3rd gen coach?
18:56:22  <supermop> not 8/8?
18:56:26  <andythenorth> probably 10/8
18:56:30  <andythenorth> measure the pixels in – view
18:56:32  <supermop> fuuuuuuuuuuuck
18:56:53  <supermop> 40 in _ view
18:56:54  <andythenorth> these things happen
18:57:08  <supermop> ok
18:57:31  <supermop> soo new feature: my place holder sprites now allow for 10/8 railcars
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18:58:23  <supermop> so i already have a 5/8 sprite at least then
18:58:49  <supermop> and a 7.5/8
18:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> be aware that 10/8 can't be dual headed
18:59:17  <andythenorth> nothing in IH can be dual-headed :)
18:59:21  <supermop> never drew vehicles before so didn't notice 40 was too long
19:00:07  <supermop> andythenorth: what was your shinkansen/cargo sprinter idea?
19:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: always draw vehicles into existing templates
19:00:46  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: because nobody is going to bother figuring out offsets for each sprite over and over
19:00:47  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: was, didn't realize was a template for 10/8 because i am a moron
19:01:36  <andythenorth> supermop: the cargo sprinter has a stupid magical template that uses different sprites for first/last vehicle and middle vehicles
19:01:54  <andythenorth> it also handles cargo-specific graphics, with random variants :P
19:02:00  <andythenorth> I never ever ever want to see it again
19:02:31  <andythenorth> real show-pony stuff, total overkill
19:02:58  <andythenorth>  but it could be used for EMUs also
19:03:43  <supermop> ok
19:04:02  <supermop> i'll figure out a way to bribe you into using that for shinkansen
19:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds ridiculously overcomplicated over just making something dual head
19:05:03  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: idk how the CS works, but ideally every car adds power, not just the heads
19:05:04  <Samu> Alberth: - just edited the first post of that topic to better describe the patch
19:05:13  <Samu> now it should be all clear
19:05:30  <Alberth> ok :)
19:06:31  <supermop> fiance vetoed the multi-colored suit
19:08:16  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you might be right, but then double-head engines are restricted to 8/8 and it’s a janky schema with special cases
19:08:21  <supermop> now that i've accidentally drawn a 5/8 emu part, the 5+6+5 monorail does seem more attractive
19:08:31  * andythenorth wonders what the best way to build a shinkansen is for player
19:08:49  <supermop> easiest is you buy a 4-car set
19:08:57  <supermop> as many as you need
19:09:04  <andythenorth> it’s not very flexible for capacity
19:09:07  <andythenorth> does that matter?
19:09:16  <supermop> 2nd easiest is just keep buying single shinkansen cars
19:09:21  <andythenorth> are they pax only?
19:09:25  <supermop> yes
19:09:35  <supermop> in real life and in concept
19:10:26  <sim-al2> In game terms it might be good to have mail as an option
19:10:41  <andythenorth> recently I have been playing with 5 tile train lengths
19:10:44  <andythenorth> by accident
19:10:51  <supermop> in real life the end cars should be lower capacity and more expensive, due to cabs, long aerodynamic area, couplers etc
19:11:01  <Samu> my english is so horrible :o
19:11:01  <supermop> i always use 5 tile
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19:11:23  <supermop> but i dont mind a center car costing the same as an end car
19:11:52  <sim-al2> Of course, in reality, after the 0 series the end cars don't have traction motor either...
19:11:53  <supermop> nor do i mind it having same capacity
19:13:03  <supermop> sim-al2: in real life japanese emus are too complicated in their set layouts, between where powered cars and trailers go
19:13:15  <supermop> in game should be homogenized
19:13:27  <sim-al2> Well, exluding those 4 car 100 series trains. But yeah, that's way far out for a game to replicate
19:14:06  <andythenorth> supermop: I think high-speed MUs like that are best treated similar to planes
19:14:20  <andythenorth> consists are 3 (maybe 4) tile long
19:14:28  <andythenorth> several hundred pax
19:14:37  <andythenorth> if you want bigger, add another whole consist
19:14:38  <andythenorth> no magic
19:15:01  <Sylf> shinkansen normally have very fixed consists
19:15:13  <Sylf> 8, 12 or 16 cars for 0 series
19:15:18  <sim-al2> Most of them have what's referred to as the MM' setup, where there's two types of equipment, one car with pantograph, transformer, and motor controller, and the other car might have the air compressor, but both motored
19:15:34  <sim-al2> There were 4 and 6 car trains for the West Kodoma near the end
19:15:48  <supermop> sim-al2: too complex for iron horse
19:15:53  <Sylf> but for the game, I prefer I can create my own consists
19:16:05  <sim-al2> I know, just for reference
19:16:23  <sim-al2> Nevermind the bilevel cars that appeared at one point
19:18:03  <andythenorth> 8 cars at 8/8 is 4 tiles
19:18:05  <Samu> CRAP, i forgot to describe the best feature of this all... restarting the slot with another AI script
19:18:06  <andythenorth> which is about right
19:18:09  <Samu> brb
19:19:10  <supermop> sim-al2: no MAX in this roster, throws off balance between shinkanse and regular EMU
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19:19:39  <sim-al2> No, the 100 and 200 had bilevel green and dining cars, because they had such long trips
19:20:11  <sim-al2> Especially 100 series, Toyko to the end of the Sanyo Shnkansen takes a long time at 220 km/h
19:20:13  <supermop> sim-al2: ah those were gone by my first trip to japan i think
19:20:31  <sim-al2> It was only two cars in a 16 car formation
19:20:53  <sim-al2> I think they were cut up by the late 80's, definetly by the 90's
19:21:08  <supermop> when i was there the first time it was mostly 300s and 500s, few 0s and few 700s\
19:21:31  <sim-al2> Yeah, they would have been gone, having trains at 270 km/h really speeded everything up
19:21:34  <supermop> havet seen a 500 since then tho
19:22:05  <sim-al2> They're around, but on the Sanyo Shinkansen
19:22:40  <sim-al2> Too expensive for mass production. The 700 series have almost the same performance at much lower price to build
19:23:02  <sim-al2> 100 series bilevel:
19:23:16  <supermop> sim-al2: yeah but 500s scream 90s industrial design
19:23:40  <supermop> wish i could have gone last year to see the 500/evangelion 20th aniversary set
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19:25:17  <supermop> the guy at the bottom is 5/8:
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19:25:51  <Samu> done :) damn i feel so proud i made something decent
19:25:56  <Samu> :p
19:26:11  <sim-al2> C bogie?
19:26:45  <Samu> no, this
19:26:56  <sim-al2> Also you have a single black pixel at 7x7
19:27:12  <Samu> oh, you're not talking to me
19:27:17  <sim-al2> Sorry Samu, I was talking to supermop
19:27:37  <sim-al2> But the AI patch is looking cool
19:28:03  <Samu> i'm unsure if game scripts could do the same, only if i test it
19:30:32  <supermop> andythenorth: Japan set is gpl so could steal their shinkansens,
19:31:07  <Samu> thx
19:33:13  <supermop> sim-al2: not enough space to show separate bogies
19:34:07  <supermop> bogies will be painted over with a monorail side skirt anyway, as i dont have any rail vehicle planned for 5/8
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20:03:51  <sim-al2> Side skirt you say?
20:04:19  <planetmaker> o/
20:04:48  <sim-al2> Yeah, I think they took them off because it made inspections too hard
20:05:26  <frosch123> hoi planetmaker :)
20:09:44  <supermop> andy, should sprite sheets for each vehicle be posted as issues?
20:12:25  <andythenorth> yeah that’s fine
20:12:41  <andythenorth> no plan survives the first test game btw ;)
20:13:54  <supermop> yeah, i am trying to think as little as possible about hp, speed, and capacity
20:15:14  <supermop> for monorails, i am guessing regardless of whether I do 5 6 5 or 6 4 6, it is best that all generations use the same?
20:16:07  <sim-al2> Yeah, people will get confused if they change like that
20:22:33  <Snail> hey guys, I have a question about var61
20:22:55  <Snail> it currently works with a limited number of callbacks
 such as recoloring
20:23:26  <Snail> I understand it’s like this to prevent circular references. However, my question is, can we extend it to the “wagon length” callback as well?
20:24:43  <frosch123> no, it cannot be extended to anything that affects gameplay
20:25:02  <Snail> why is that?
20:25:19  <frosch123> because that's where the circular references cause trouble
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20:31:18  <supermop> ok ive cut the vehicle into 1/8 slices
20:31:40  <supermop> so i can just stack as many as i need
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21:11:52  <supermop> is 19 m abnormally long for a diesel locomotive?
21:13:06  <supermop> seems normal
21:16:15  <Wolf01> yes, seems normal
21:16:24  <Wolf01> the centennial is 30m
21:16:35  <Wolf01> that's abnormal :D
21:19:23  <peter1138> firmware update for watch... ;s
21:19:55  <Supercheese> Who watches the watches?
21:20:16  <Samu> do u know of a game script that dies on game start? Need one to test something
21:20:46  <supermop>
21:21:05  <supermop>
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21:21:49  <supermop> would you say that considering those two locomotives together, if red is 1CC, would 2CC be white, or grey?
21:23:01  <supermop> so, would the light grey paint change color with 2cc while the white accent stays white? or would the white accent change color while the grey stays grey?
21:23:55  <supermop>
21:25:03  <supermop> Sylf: would you say that JR Freight's colors are red and white, or red and grey, for diesels?
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21:29:07  <sim-al2> Newer ones seem to be red and grey
21:30:38  <sim-al2>
21:31:17  <supermop> that still has white logo and stripe though
21:31:19  <sim-al2> Although the HD300 does look like it's red and white
21:34:03  <sim-al2> I don't think there's any set rules for painting, it's JRF that keeps the logo like that. JR Kyushu has its own ideas:
21:35:52  <Sylf> supermop: red and white
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21:37:03  <Sylf> If you're talking about likes of, It's red and white to me, even though the grey part is bigger than white
21:37:28  <sim-al2> Oh, looks like JRF does keep the white accent and logo even with different paint:
21:38:22  <sim-al2> With old locomotives like the DE10 and DD51, there's tons of paint variations
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21:40:24  <Sylf> I don't know of that many different paints for freight locos
21:40:48  <sim-al2> When you look at the wikipedia pages, I suggest you switch to Japanese language (left sidebar), you get tons more pictures
21:41:23  <sim-al2>
21:41:24  <Sylf> Japanese is my first language, so that's where I automatically go to when reading up on japanese trains
21:41:29  <sim-al2> Oh sorry
21:41:40  <Sylf> Many color variations are normally for pax
21:42:02  <sim-al2> Yeah, but their are small variations in scheme over the years
21:42:53  <Sylf> but vast majority stay with one design, one color scheme
21:43:13  <sim-al2> I assume different depots are responsible for the variations
21:45:52  <Sylf> I guess DF200 is more red-and-grey, not much white.
21:47:28  <sim-al2> It seems earlier batches have red-painted plows
21:47:53  <sim-al2> Or rather, the end plate above the plow
21:48:44  <Sylf> I caught a photo of one of those earlier this year in sapporo :)
21:49:31  <sim-al2> So I understand that they haul agricultural products from Hokkiado, but do they work south of Hakodate at all?
21:51:21  <Sylf> DE10 etc?
21:51:29  <sim-al2> The EH800s have another varation:
21:51:41  <Sylf> or some other locos?
21:52:08  <sim-al2> Sorry, I just don't have a grasp of where diesels in Hokkiado are actually used, except that the lines away from Sapporo are not electrified
21:52:56  <Sylf> DF200 can be used outside of Hokkaido, but they aren't used - no need.
21:53:17  <Sylf> DF200 special version is used in Kyushu, pulling the Nanatsuboshi train
21:53:28  <Sylf> that's the only exception (the brown scheme)
21:53:54  <sim-al2> Yeah, the exterior design of the Kyushi unit is... interesting...
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22:00:14  <supermop> cant decide what will look best in IH style, colorful stripe and big grey areas,
22:00:28  <supermop> or large areas of color with a white stripe
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22:12:37  <Samu> Unhandled exception at 0x00007FF6066270AB in openttd.exe: An invalid parameter was passed to a function that considers invalid parameters fatal.
22:12:42  <Samu> what does this mean'
22:14:02  <Samu> visual studio express 2015 does that sometimes when I exit openttd
22:22:36  <peter1138> get a backtrace
22:35:47  <Samu> how do I pause an AI? I see that there's some code related to IsPaused
22:36:12  <Samu> but in the game I don't see how I can pause AIs
22:36:17  <Samu> i can only stop it completely
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23:07:59  <drac_boy> hi
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23:12:18  <sim-al2> hi
23:16:02  <drac_boy> hows you?
23:19:12  <drac_boy> also you probably can tell which one it is from the unusual trucks .. but either way that operation was just a "keep things as-is for now since later we're going eject any passenger services" kind of thing
23:19:29  <drac_boy> the yellow splash is...tbh...a little funny looking
23:20:08  <sim-al2> Early Conrail paint schemes are rather interesting
23:20:17  <drac_boy> (also...not sure why that looks like an electronic megaphone for a horn? heh, never seen one like that afaik)
23:20:22  <sim-al2> Paired up FL9s too
23:21:04  <sim-al2> There were some experiments with warning devices at that time, Union Pacific tried sirens and stuff
23:21:42  <drac_boy> well conrail did have one single GG1 that was painted all blue (everything else just got the black 'CR' basic treatment) ... the real reason why tho was to cover up the bicentennial paintjob tho
23:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> tho tho
23:23:02  <drac_boy> becomes
23:23:16  <drac_boy> not too surprised that they choosed the 'Rivet' one for the special paintjob
23:23:35  <drac_boy> ofc even with the new blue paint you still can see all these dotted lines :)
23:28:54  <drac_boy> about early paints, how about this? the red color stayed but the white strips didn't last for a long time (sometimes one strip was still present but eventually it just disappeared)
23:30:10  <drac_boy> that also had one other thing that I can't recall seeing active in any photos I've seen (probably need to find earlier ones) ... rather than using old fashioned flags on pole they had electronic 'flags' (the 3+3 lamps above windshields yeah)
23:32:25  <drac_boy> heh hm that reminds me of an unusual photo in one of the canadian rail magazine that I don't have anymore .. an early wide-hood locomotive flying white flags even although the practice officially was already gone by that date
23:33:34  <sim-al2> Yeah, I suspect that the requirement for using flags disappeared while these were being built
23:35:13  <drac_boy> theres only the blue flag .. and even then later these became hard plates instead (the kind you keep by shed instead of rolling up and throw into cab stow)
23:36:55  <drac_boy> huh, while looking for any interesting conrail passenger photo I found this instead
23:37:38  <drac_boy> old F units, a F40PH (I think), PC (or at least ex-PC) alco leading a F unit on local train . AND the amtrak rohr train
23:41:42  <sim-al2> Yeah, no Metra at that time
23:45:43  <drac_boy> as I recall a few of the commuter networks were from the "shutting down services? we'll take it into our own hands instead" era during 1970-1980s period
23:54:26  <drac_boy> also interestingly enough the South Shore was technically classified as interurban which meant it could had become amtrak's but didn't happen. later it basically became a city owned commuter
23:58:47  <drac_boy> ah sim I almost forgot, did you know that the George railroad actually kept a caboose or heavyweight coach on all of its freight trains for a long time and even refused to join amtrak because they were afraid of losing a tax subsidiary. when SAL bought them out these rarely-used rides suddenly disappeared :)
23:59:24  <drac_boy> must had been an old steam era tax structure me think. no idea tbh

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