Log for #openttd on 10th April 2016:
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00:00:33  <sim-al2> Possibly, also, the ICC had some interesting rules about common carrier services
00:03:48  <drac_boy> also ICC got involved in the "interurban" wording .. as I recall there was one railroad that asked a merger plan to be processed under interurban laws but later ICC came back saying that as they had diesel locomotives nope they must use steam road merger rules .. and on cue the merger was denied under strong opposition from a would-had-been-parallel railroad
00:04:15  <drac_boy> apparently interurbans had much less regulations for a merger
00:06:38  <drac_boy> mind you there is one other side of the ICC ... Southern Pacific's long fight with them for these super-sized (back then, now they probably look small? heh) freight wagons with equally lower tonnage prices to match
00:07:35  <Eddi|zuHause> why is there a guy walking on the rails into the oncoming train at that photo?
00:08:54  <drac_boy> tbh I think the F40PH may be simply parked 'hot' (although its headlight maybe shouldn't had been left staying on compared to that amtrak F unit)
00:09:10  <drac_boy> it seem like only the alco/F pair are actually moving at all
00:09:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the engine with the smilie face on the right?
00:09:54  <drac_boy> yep I see an arm in the alco cab window .. and looks like a bit of hot exhaust smoke too
00:10:17  <drac_boy> yeah that smile face .. its roadnumber lights are on but the headlight are off tho
00:10:19  <sim-al2> The switch is lined for the local, I suppose the guy is going to line the other switch closer to the Amtrak train
00:10:49  <drac_boy> sim...ah does look like a manual switch, maybe
00:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause> for the shunting unit on the left to cross?
00:11:11  <sim-al2> Alternatively, he's going to set that switch so that the Amtrak can pass through
00:11:29  <drac_boy> little footnote: theres probably a conductor waiting to do something (in the very lower-left corner)
00:11:45  <drac_boy> not sure, no blue hat or anything
00:11:58  <drac_boy> navy hat*
00:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i find the engine shed funny where they cut the rails leading into it
00:14:04  <drac_boy> heres another chicago photo. and I never could quite get why conrail kept a lot of SW1's around (the original ones yeah!)
00:14:23  <sim-al2> I'd guess cheap and reliable
00:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause> on the whole, this yard seems to have a long downward slope ahead of it
00:14:54  <sim-al2> Chicago is pretty flat
00:14:58  <drac_boy> well the SW1200 and 1500 were sold in a large number and still used the similar powerplants to the geeps
00:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant in time, not in geography :p
00:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the shady weather is probably not helping the look either :p
00:16:53  <drac_boy> pretty flat? you're going to want to try a different railroad :p .. I recall one that had a super-flat super-straight line but of course they were besieged with occassional but huge pileups due to hot bearings (because a very straight line makes it hard to look back on train)
00:17:01  <drac_boy> can't recall the railroad's name now sorry
00:19:11  <sim-al2> The railyard seems to have become Metra's main yard:'54.0%22N+87%C2%B038'16.8%22W/@41.8646716,-87.6369369,874m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0?hl=en
00:20:44  <drac_boy> for grades you probably can't beat this tho as it suddenly went from level to almost 5% instantly but at least it wasn't for a long distance ...
00:21:00  <sim-al2> Turns out the RTA F40PHs arrived in time for pulling some of the heavyweights:
00:21:35  <drac_boy> used to be (as an editor quoted) that downhill on a two-coach train a passenger standing on the rear vestibule would find his shoes higher than the horns on the leading F unit!
00:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a TTD slope :p
00:25:09  <drac_boy> and of course steep grades means this can happen, thankgod for runaway tracks
00:25:31  <drac_boy> (yep a heavy train so it buried itself hard.... :-s )
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00:36:36  <supermop>
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00:37:41  <sim-al2> Very nice
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00:40:04  <drac_boy> supermop that looks like a typical hydraulic-or-electric 3 axle shunter?
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00:57:52  <drac_boy> ah sim no clue how to find a photo but there were always these few rather odd locomotives during the early mergers-happy years. nothing like finding a single diesel with a mix of different panels and everything (csx cab, up engine door, southern roof, etc? probably already been done!)
01:06:45  <drac_boy> anyway sorry if you wanted say something later but I'm going sleep soon now so bye :)
01:06:46  <Eddi|zuHause> have i mentioned already that sometimes i do not understand a single word you say?
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01:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> dangit
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01:14:44  <sim-al2> Eddi, I assume he means like a colorful version of this:
01:15:35  <sim-al2> The top line should read "Seaboard"
01:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> copy-paste error :p
01:17:22  <sim-al2> Or this, railroad name is just "CSX":
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02:05:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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06:14:50  <andythenorth> o/
06:34:06  <Alberth> moin
06:48:50  <Alberth> do you know how you find a git revision that added a line matching a pattern? I have lost a new file, it's in the git repo, but I don't know exactly where, and I only have part of the line that it should contain
06:49:09  <Alberth> I can also guess a filename
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06:51:11  <andythenorth> I don’t :(
06:51:17  <andythenorth> I’m sure it can be done
06:53:40  <Alberth> pro-git book doesn't seem to have a discussion about it
06:58:01  <andythenorth> Alberth: ?
06:58:52  <Alberth> looks useful, thanks
06:59:40  <andythenorth> I’m assuming you need to dig out specific string from [all diffs]
07:04:34  <Alberth> that would be fine, the file is obviously not used much yet :p
07:07:46  <andythenorth> if I knew roughly when I committed it, I might be tempted to just step through commits using bitbucket interface or similar ;)
07:09:01  <Alberth> git log --all  -G<pattern>    did the trick
07:09:14  <Alberth> --all means search all branches
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07:19:13  <Alberth> fyi  --branches may be better for local branches  :)
07:25:40  <andythenorth> git fu
07:26:07  <Alberth> haha, GarryG is such fun, boldly just breaking all rules, and making new additions no-one ever did :)
07:26:57  <andythenorth> yup
07:34:13  <peter1138> Who?
07:38:08  <Alberth>
07:38:22  <Alberth> and two other projects iirc
07:56:09  <peter1138> breaking all rules?
07:56:11  <peter1138> hmm
07:57:45  * andythenorth wonders about newgrf industry farm fields
07:57:47  <andythenorth> again
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08:53:20  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you remember how I was going to do RoadTypes?  All state was in my head, that was a long week ago :P
08:54:39  * andythenorth believes the best route was to use m4 for subtype
08:54:50  <andythenorth> and drop the current type bits, in favour of returning ROADTYPES_INVALID_TRAM / ROADTYPES_INVALID_ROAD where needed
08:55:54  <Alberth> /me tries to interpret that message
08:56:43  <andythenorth> sorry
08:57:00  <Alberth> yes, I remember, and I even wondered about it today
08:57:36  <andythenorth> wondered if I’d done it, or wondered if there’s a better way? o_O
08:57:42  <Alberth> but I have some problems connecting m4 with source code modifications
08:58:07  <Alberth> wondered how far it was, mostly
08:58:18  <andythenorth> state fell out of my head :D
08:58:22  <andythenorth> didn’t touch it
08:58:27  <Alberth> oops :(
08:59:08  <Alberth> so what is the new idea about road types?
08:59:09  <andythenorth> application programming is so much harder than just compilling stuff :P
08:59:31  <andythenorth> I will write a spec first I think, implementation and spec are getting blurred too much
08:59:37  <Alberth> yep, you have to invent the right solution out of the blue
09:00:15  * andythenorth always finds decoupling implementation and spec weird
09:00:27  <andythenorth> there are implementation facts to address, like which bits are free in map
09:01:00  <Alberth> implementation is also a spec, but with a lot of details
09:01:16  <Alberth> so usually it's better to first write a spec at a higher level
09:01:49  <Alberth> leaving out all the details until you're reasonably sure that it will do what you want
09:02:16  <Alberth> and then fill in the details without having to worry about the overall structure
09:02:34  <Alberth> ie it's
09:03:00  <Alberth>  ie it's a continuum from single thought to realization
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09:03:15  <Alberth> o/
09:03:26  <Wolf01> o/
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09:04:00  <Wolf01> quak
09:04:15  <frosch123> hoi
09:04:22  <Alberth> hi hi
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09:06:23  <Wolf01> me this night...
09:08:11  <Alberth> good evening then :)
09:09:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: o/
09:10:08  <andythenorth> your proposal to split road / tram in the global toolbar
09:10:20  <andythenorth> that’s incidental to NotRoadTypes, but I think it helps it make sense
09:10:31  <andythenorth> would you put that at start or end of spec?
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09:11:57  <Alberth> near the end imho, as it's just the shape of things that you need in the realization
09:12:51  <Alberth> ie there are a zillion ways to split them, and it doesn't really matter how
09:13:01  <andythenorth> ta
09:13:01  <Alberth> at least at the start :)
09:13:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: both :)
09:13:26  <frosch123> the first thing is that "road" and "tram" shall be independent like "road" and "rail"
09:13:47  <frosch123> they can coexist on the same tile in some cases, but do not influence each other
09:13:57  <andythenorth> agreed
09:14:54  <frosch123> in particular, that building tram does not alter/upgrade the roadtype on the tile etc
09:15:41  <andythenorth> yup
09:15:42  <frosch123> basically: at some point you would likely want to specify how the gameplay actions are affected
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09:23:49  <Wolf01> I'm trying to figure out what would be the implications of moving the tram away of roadtypes, but I read "gameplay affections" so I think I'm not ready to think this morning
09:30:52  <frosch123> it means that a vehicle cannot be both roadvehicle and tram
09:31:08  <frosch123> and that building electrified tram on a road does not enable trolley busses
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09:35:21  <Samu> hi
09:39:44  <Wolf01> makes sense
09:39:50  <Wolf01> hi
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09:48:57  <andythenorth> draft
09:49:07  <andythenorth> frosch123 ? ^
09:50:38  <andythenorth> needs more clarity
09:51:03  <andythenorth> concept is clear, words not precise yet
09:59:57  <andythenorth> it would help clarity greatly to remove all existing use of ‘RoadType’ and have instead ‘RoadType’ and ‘TramType’ but there are problems with that
10:01:14  <Samu> uhm....
10:01:41  <Alberth> maybe differentiate between train rails and tram rail?
10:02:10  <Alberth> s/light rail/tram/ ?
10:03:08  <Alberth> 1st line of subtypes is relevant, other lines are not.  Move to end or discard?
10:03:19  <Samu> let me read :o
10:04:04  <Alberth> mybe add a "newgrf author considerations"  :)
10:04:57  <Alberth> addition there: "user should be able to see whether catenary exists for road, tram, or both
10:10:03  <Samu> so trams are special roads
10:10:31  <andythenorth> currently
10:10:39  <andythenorth> some parts of the code have concept of ‘mode’
10:10:52  <andythenorth> where mode is rail / road / water etc
10:11:20  * andythenorth wonders if tram can be treated as a first class mode, for terminology purposes
10:11:40  <andythenorth> half the challenge here is the terms are blurred becuase tram is just a roadtype
10:11:55  <andythenorth> but it’s a roadtype with numerous special cases :P
10:15:19  <Samu> NotRoadType needs a better name, :o
10:20:23  <Samu> NotRoadType { road, tram, subtype3, subtype4, subtype5, etc... up to 15? }
10:21:00  <Samu> so roads are nested stuff?
10:22:16  <Samu> oh wait, im wrong
10:22:22  <andythenorth> read it 10 times
10:22:27  <andythenorth> then decide if roads are nested or not
10:22:38  <andythenorth> then read it again and change your mind
10:24:08  <andythenorth> Tram _should_ be a first class transport mode
10:24:20  <andythenorth> whether the implementation can be made to support that without too much work is another question
10:24:43  <Samu> names are confusing me a bit
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10:25:15  <andythenorth> what’s confusing about RoadTypeRoad? o_O
10:25:43  <andythenorth> so you have Road on a tile, and the Road has a RoadType, and the RoadType can be RoadTypeRoad or RoadTypeTram
10:25:53  <andythenorth> so Road is Road, except when it’s Tram
10:26:22  <andythenorth> otoh, at least someone implemented it :)
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10:28:26  <Samu> TrackTypeRoad
10:28:30  <Samu> TrackTypeTram
10:28:44  <Samu> TrackTypeRail
10:28:51  <Samu> TrackTypeWater
10:30:21  <Samu> and i don't even know if aircraft have their own tracks
10:31:22  <Samu> if you want to make road and tram completely unrelated with each other, better not have Road in the name, imo
10:31:38  <frosch123> • vehicle routing and movement per ‘road’ and ‘tram’ are independent <- that is likely not correct
10:31:56  <frosch123> they won't drive through each other, and may still consider occupancy of roadstops in pathfinder costs
10:33:34  <frosch123> ‘tram’ is always drawn above ‘road’; authors need to be aware of this when drawing sprites, no mechanism will be provided to vary this <- i guess there are three layers: road, tram, road/tram catenary
10:34:34  <frosch123> drawing of city roads, bridges, tunnels, and similar will follow existing behaviour <- what existing behaviour?
10:34:51  <frosch123> do you mean like railtypes?
10:34:53  <frosch123> with overlays
10:38:18  <andythenorth> wavey hands
10:38:50  <andythenorth> I don’t know how the current implementation works for that
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10:39:22  <andythenorth> currently I’ve only tried making bridges etc support different subtype
10:39:34  <andythenorth> didn’t touch drawing except for catenary, which is trivial
10:41:59  <Samu> ok i better shut up, i have no idea what i'm talking about, sorry
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10:45:55  <frosch123> so, how do hg bookmarks work?
10:46:12  * frosch123 googles
10:51:22  <andythenorth> Samu: no your points are quite fair I think
10:51:29  <andythenorth> ‘better not have Road in the name’ especially
10:52:09  <andythenorth> but there are so many places that is used, e.g. pathfinding etc, I can’t see how it could be sensibly changed
10:53:08  <Alberth> sed -e 's/Road/BlackTile/g' -i src/{*,*/*,*/*/*}  or so ?
10:53:50  <Alberth> :)
10:54:14  <andythenorth> ha
10:54:19  <andythenorth> well that might work :P
10:54:45  <frosch123> i like lightrail
10:54:56  <frosch123> we just need a specialsed term for road that does not include tram/lightrail
10:55:03  <frosch123> rubbertrack or so
10:55:08  <frosch123> :p
10:55:52  <andythenorth> unguided :P
10:55:54  <frosch123> RailType, RubberType, TramType, WaterClass
10:56:13  <frosch123> negations are complicated
10:56:23  <andythenorth> aren’t they just
10:56:42  <frosch123> sounds like something pikka would say
10:56:50  <andythenorth> for reasons also
10:57:56  <andythenorth> wikipedia seems to distinguish ‘wheeled’ and ‘railed’
10:58:06  <andythenorth> on the basis of how the force is transmitted to the ground
10:58:34  <andythenorth> ha there’s an ISO :)
10:58:38  <andythenorth>
10:59:28  <Alberth> CarType ?
10:59:54  <Samu> Track is bad name?
11:00:10  <Alberth> confuses train with tram
11:00:19  <Samu> Foundation?
11:00:29  <frosch123> CarType could work :)
11:00:36  <frosch123> sounds weird, but is unique
11:00:50  <andythenorth> TruckAndBusType
11:00:54  <andythenorth> :P
11:00:57  <Alberth> maybe WaterClass is weird :p
11:01:04  <andythenorth> lots of things are weird :D
11:01:10  <Alberth> \o/
11:01:14  <andythenorth> weird is fine, confusing and ambiguous is not :)
11:01:54  <Samu> WaterClass, i'm a bit familiar with this term
11:02:26  <Samu> GroundClass?
11:02:44  <frosch123> we already have groundvehicles
11:02:56  <frosch123> which include also rail
11:03:17  <frosch123> CarType is good
11:03:27  <Samu> oki
11:03:45  <frosch123> ottd is en_GB, trains have wagons
11:04:21  <frosch123> RailType, CarType, TramType, WaterClass
11:04:23  <Alberth> SilverSurferzz has cars :)
11:04:29  <frosch123> (LightRail is too complicated after all)
11:04:37  <frosch123> Alberth: and lots of them
11:04:42  <frosch123> like one per day
11:04:59  <Alberth> just like his strings :)
11:05:18  <frosch123> yup :) silversurfer is basically the definition of a squirrel
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11:07:21  <Samu> RoadOrTramType?
11:07:23  <Samu> lol
11:07:24  <Samu> sorry
11:07:37  <andythenorth> CarType is weird to me, but it’s bikeshedding :P
11:07:43  <andythenorth> as long as it’s unique, I don’t care
11:08:13  <Samu> FoundationType?
11:08:34  <frosch123> foundations are the walls, when you make a sloped tile flat
11:09:16  <Samu> I can see how easy it is to relate it to RoadType
11:09:24  <andythenorth> TurnpikeType
11:09:26  <Samu> yeah, complicated task just for a name
11:09:26  <andythenorth> HighwayType
11:09:29  <andythenorth> StreetType
11:09:38  <andythenorth> AutomobileType :P
11:09:45  <andythenorth> CarType is fine
11:10:10  <frosch123> StreetType is also nice
11:10:42  <andythenorth> use that?
11:10:49  <andythenorth> it’s replaceable later anyway
11:11:06  <frosch123> reminds me of sydney. every town district has a victory road, a victory avenue,  a victory lane and a victoria street
11:11:16  <Samu> TerrestrialTransportType
11:11:24  <Samu> nah...
11:11:30  <Alberth> streettype is more generic imho
11:11:42  <frosch123> s/victory/victoria"
11:12:08  <Samu> LandType
11:12:11  <Samu> hmm :(
11:12:23  <frosch123> i prefer streettype because it refers more to the track than to the vehicles
11:12:45  <andythenorth>  yup
11:12:48  <andythenorth> wfm
11:12:48  <frosch123> like RailType instead of TrainType, WaterClass instead of ShipClass
11:13:05  <frosch123> just TramType is easier :p
11:13:08  <andythenorth> yup
11:13:26  <andythenorth> LightRailType produces unwanted results if searching for RailType :P
11:13:33  * andythenorth is lazy about searching
11:17:52  * andythenorth rewrites spec, per StreetType and TramType
11:21:18  <Alberth> SteelWheelType :p
11:21:54  <andythenorth> nicely played
11:30:46  <andythenorth> improved
11:34:27  <Samu> Alberth: if you have time for me
11:34:54  <Samu> The GS slot is following different rules to those of AI slots
11:35:14  <Samu> the red/green rules for the GS slot are.... confusing
11:35:44  <Alberth> yes, that's what I was trying to tell you yesterday
11:36:00  <Alberth> you're confusing configuration and game play
11:36:09  <Flygon> Nah, it's simple. You get four code slots per cartridge. You just have to plug in enough Gamesharks until your Mega Drive can't supply enough 5v current.
11:36:09  <Flygon> :3
11:36:13  <Alberth> or rather, mixing them
11:36:39  <Samu> I've just uploaded a new version, v5, cus i spotted a bug, don't know you noticed it
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11:37:23  <Samu> and also implemented the coloring for the GS slot. The GS slot "Configure" button can be clicked through that window
11:37:36  <Samu> that was something already possible before
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11:40:46  <Alberth> I mostly got highly confused by all the unrelated max company changes
11:43:19  <Samu> this? -> "b) While in the main menu, all 15 slots are configurable, regardless of the current value of Maximum no. competitors. This means they're all highlighted in orange text."?
11:43:53  <Samu> i wanted to add some flexibility to this window
11:44:16  <Alberth> so the aim is just to have 15 competitors and colours?
11:44:22  * andythenorth needs a NotRoadTypes repo
11:44:35  <andythenorth> github? or hg and devzone?
11:44:52  <Alberth> BusTruckTramTypes :p
11:45:25  <Samu> the aim is to let you configure the 15 slots, without locking them out if you have set a max no competitors to a value less  than 15
11:45:34  <Alberth> how does devzone work with temporary repos?
11:45:41  <andythenorth> dunno
11:45:46  <Alberth> I usually just make a repo at my local file system
11:45:52  <Samu> but a running game will still obey to the max_no_competitors value
11:46:03  <andythenorth> you are very trusting of your backups :)
11:46:23  <Samu> it's merely lets you configure those slots instead of locking them
11:46:32  <Alberth> nah, I don't mind much if they disappear :p
11:46:59  <andythenorth> $someone should make an annoying recursive name for NotRoadTypes
11:47:23  <Alberth> NRT is not road types ?
11:47:39  <Alberth> pretty trivial :p
11:47:41  <andythenorth> :)
11:48:34  <Samu> it* merely
11:48:36  <Samu> typo
11:49:15  <Alberth> you want to configure AIs that can never be used?
11:50:08  <Samu> they could still be used, the max_no_competitor value is still changeable during a game
11:50:18  <Samu> but yes
11:53:48  <andythenorth> bbl
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12:25:14  <Samu> Hey, I had an idea for the name
12:25:21  <Samu> WayType
12:26:02  <Samu> tramway, roadway, railway
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12:44:12  <Samu> i should universalize the behaviour of AI slots + GS slot
12:44:33  <Samu> they behave differently for some of the common things
12:45:38  <Samu> even in the original code
12:49:14  <Samu> a GS slot is always editable
12:49:34  <Samu> an AI slot is never editable once it starts, in the original code
12:50:06  <Samu> GS slot script can't restart
12:50:12  <Samu> AI slot script can restart
12:53:14  <Samu> GS script can't be altered during a game
12:53:52  <Samu> AI script can be altered during a game if it has not started yet, in the original code
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12:55:13  <Samu> AI script can be altered during a game if it has started and died, in my code
12:56:06  <Samu> AI script can't be altered during a game if it has started and isn't dead, in my code
12:58:23  <Samu> GS parameters can be altered during a game, slot is editable
12:59:11  <Samu> AI parameters can't be altered during a game if it has started and isn't dead, slot is not editable, in my code :( must make it editable
12:59:34  <frosch123> Samu: <- add CONFIG_INGAME to your list
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13:17:56  <supermop> yo
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13:24:36  <Alberth> hi hi
13:24:58  <supermop> hows it going Alberth
13:26:34  <Alberth> quite alright
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13:35:16  <Samu> add CONFIG_INGAME to my list. I don't know where to look
13:40:42  <Samu> there are two ways to access the script Parameter windows: via AI/GS Debug window and via AI/GS Config window
13:41:34  <Alberth> script/script_config.hpp
13:41:34  <Alberth> 27:     SCRIPTCONFIG_INGAME    = 0x4, ///< This setting can be changed while the Script is running.
13:41:54  <Alberth> so there is a bit whether you can edit the script, apparently
13:42:38  <Alberth> or rather, change the parameter while it is running
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13:45:02  <Samu> it is the AI/GS Config window that is locking the slot
13:45:38  <Samu> im geting confused
13:46:46  <Samu> i think the issue is solvable in the ai_gui.cpp
13:47:02  <Samu> don't have to edit the other files
13:47:23  <Samu> or i'm not sure what you're telling me
13:48:19  <Alberth> just telling you what that SCRIPTCONFIG_INGAME means
13:48:37  <Alberth> as you said "I don't know where to look"
14:01:04  <Samu> 	virtual void OnInvalidateData(int data = 0, bool gui_scope = true)
14:01:09  <Samu> must be here
14:01:27  <Samu> have to think
14:01:32  <Samu> it's hard to think
14:15:03  <Samu> IsEditable is so misleading
14:15:26  <Samu> IsSlotSelectable would be better
14:15:31  <Samu> lel
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15:02:53  <Samu> is it possible to simplify this code?
15:02:55  <Samu> this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_AIC_CHANGE, ((this->selected_slot == OWNER_DEITY && _game_mode == GM_NORMAL) || this->selected_slot == INVALID_COMPANY) ||	(this->selected_slot <= MAX_COMPANIES && _game_mode == GM_NORMAL && Company::IsValidAiID(this->selected_slot) && !Company::Get(this->selected_slot)->ai_instance->IsDead()));
15:03:09  <Samu> for readability
15:05:19  <Samu>
15:05:24  <Samu> it's 1 big line :(
15:07:56  <Samu> and as you can see, I am letting green slots to be selectable
15:08:10  <Samu> but disabling the Select AI button
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15:09:31  <Samu> to have similar funcionality as the GS slot
15:09:31  <Alberth> the final line is this->SetWidgetDisabledState(WID_AIC_CHANGE, disabled);
15:09:47  <Alberth> above it,   bool disabled = ....
15:10:07  <Alberth> the latter gives you room to assign separate parts to the boolean
15:10:35  <Samu> yes, that's the intended goal, disable "Select AI" for the selected green slot
15:11:21  <Samu> I am once again allowing green slots to be selectable, aka IsEditable
15:11:38  <Samu> just not leting it to change to another AI
15:12:03  <Samu> but the line is huge!
15:12:28  <Alberth> I just explained how you can break it in small pieces?
15:12:50  <Samu> hmm, let me read again
15:12:57  <LordAro> is what i'd do
15:13:03  <LordAro> assuming i'm reading it right
15:13:07  <Alberth> hi hi LordAro
15:13:12  <LordAro> o/ Alberth
15:13:18  <LordAro> just passing through :)
15:13:26  <Alberth> yw :)
15:14:02  <LordAro> the condition(s) themselves don't appear to be able to be simplified though
15:14:45  <Samu> deity is the GS
15:14:55  <Samu> thx aro
15:15:15  <Samu> there's also INVALID_COMPANY, when you're not selecting anything
15:15:28  <LordAro> np, make sure you understand what it's doing though
15:16:08  * LordAro disappears into the night again
15:16:40  <Alberth> night?  at this hour?
15:17:42  <andythenorth> so eh, got a spec
15:18:16  <andythenorth> implementation, it looks plausible to still wrap StreetType and TramType in some RoadType stuff
15:18:34  <andythenorth> or alternatively
not :P
15:21:41  <Samu> I had the WayType idea
15:22:04  <Samu> WayType for the name
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15:23:33  <Samu> i see Alberth thx
15:24:00  <Rubidium> Alberth: the sun has set and not risen again, so it must be night (here and where LordAro is)
15:24:27  <andythenorth> removing RoadType in favour of only StreetType and TramType makes a lot of the road-related code more explicit and easier to understand
15:25:00  <andythenorth> but it also makes other places needlessly complex?  e.g. infrastructure costs, vehicle construction
15:25:36  <andythenorth> pathfinding
15:29:01  <andythenorth> loads of AI / GS support
15:30:13  <frosch123> i think you dug too deep
15:30:38  <frosch123> be careful of balrogs
15:30:39  <andythenorth> I think keeping RoadType and being able to unpack it to StreetType and TramType is preferable
15:30:46  <frosch123> yup :)
15:30:56  <Rubidium> do you need 16 road and 16 tram types? Or is sharing 15 of both enough? (i.e. the num of road and tram types is 15). Then you could just have two IDs stored as "road type", where RoadType 0 means: slot not used
15:31:12  <andythenorth> I found > 500 places that RoadType would be removed and replaced with slightly more complex code :P
15:31:15  <andythenorth> not good
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15:32:57  <andythenorth> Rubidium: something like this is the plan
15:36:39  <Alberth> Rubidium:  maybe lord aro is near you then :)
15:36:51  <Alberth> Samu:  yw
15:47:32  <Samu> i have it like this
15:48:56  <Samu> gonna test it
15:52:00  <Samu> yep, it's working!
15:52:10  <Samu> i just hope assertions dont' get in the way
15:52:38  <Samu> i'm not sure if that's the right way to find out if a company is an AI, and it's AI script is dead
15:52:55  <Samu> do you know of a more correct way to check that?
15:54:09  <Samu> this part here: Company::IsValidAiID(this->selected_slot) && !Company::Get(this->selected_slot)->ai_instance->IsDead();
15:56:08  <Samu> what's the difference between Company::GetIfValid and Company::Get
15:57:52  <Alberth> documentation should tell you, but likely, the latter doesn't trust you give it a valid company id
15:58:00  <Alberth> euhm, the former, I mean
15:59:11  <glx> if AI is dead, the company is no longer an AI
15:59:28  <Samu> it still is
15:59:52  <glx> it's a ghost company ;)
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16:06:43  <Samu> alright, Get is enough
16:07:07  <Samu> IsValidAiID is also doing GetIfValid
16:11:10  <Samu> moving forward to WID_AIC_CONFIGURE
16:11:21  <Samu> there's a dilema here
16:12:30  <Samu> I don't know how I want this widget to work
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16:13:05  <Samu> have to decide
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16:18:26  <Samu> idea 1: make it work like the GS. it can be configurable from both AI/GS Config window and AI/GS Debug window
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16:18:59  <Samu> idea 2: disable the button when an AI and a GS are running. it can be configurable from the AI/GS Debug window only
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16:20:39  <Samu> both AIs and GSs can die as well.
16:21:10  <Samu> when AI dies, it can restart, when a GS dies, it cannot restart
16:23:20  <Samu> i think idea 1 is a better approach, but then I also have to deal with alive and dead configs
16:25:04  <Samu> the instantiation or whatever it's called
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16:48:26  <andythenorth> is it painful to review if I do NotRoadTypes as a set of git branches?
16:49:45  <Alberth> at worst you can make a patch file for each commit at the end :)
16:52:32  <andythenorth> ok :)
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17:05:25  <Samu> i'm at script_config.cpp, hmm... so apparently I got to edit this file
17:05:37  <Samu> :(
17:06:07  <Alberth> just think of all the other files that you don't have to edit
17:06:38  <Samu> hehe
17:09:20  <Samu> AnchorUnchangeableSettings
17:09:28  <Samu> this is the culprit
17:09:30  <Samu> grrr
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17:11:24  <Samu> in a game, AIs can define some parameters to be unchangeable during a game. This is nice, for as long as the AI is not dead
17:11:37  <Samu> but if it dies.... what's the point :(
17:13:04  <Samu> I am trying to find a way to "UnAnchorUnchangeableSettings" for dead AIs. halp!
17:13:26  <Samu> treat them like they're not in the game mode GM_NORMAL
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17:15:12  <Gja> Hello
17:15:25  <Gja> Can anyone tell me what train carts I can use with YETI?
17:16:02  <Alberth> anything except default set, and not too ancient
17:16:30  <Gja> oh
17:16:41  <Gja> Im new so just tring different stuff
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17:16:49  <Gja> YETI seems pretty cool
17:16:50  <Alberth> if you like the default set, you can try ogfx+trains
17:17:10  <Alberth> there is also ogfx+rvs  and a few other ogfx+  newgrfs
17:17:11  <Gja> honestly dont know about any alternatives to teh default
17:17:16  <Gja> I dont mind trying new things
17:17:40  <frosch123> use nuts to get matching yeti graphics on the trains
17:17:43  <Alberth> these work mostly like the default set, but you can use them with eg yeti
17:17:54  <Gja> nuts seems just kind of over done..
17:18:04  <frosch123> well, then pineapple trains
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17:18:29  <Alberth> iron horse, and squish are very playable too
17:18:38  <andythenorth> Squish :D
17:18:41  <Alberth> and road hog
17:18:43  <andythenorth> it should really be renamed
17:18:49  <Alberth> *squid
17:19:11  <Alberth> andy: fish2 :p
17:21:58  <Gja> what is ogfx+rvs?
17:22:10  <Sylf> with nuts, one shouldn't try to use all trains at once
17:22:10  <Alberth> rv = road vehicle
17:22:35  <Gja> ah
17:22:36  <Gja> found it
17:22:40  <Alberth> ie buses and trucks :)
17:22:52  <Sylf> nuts is actually very simple if you learn the system behind it
17:23:05  <Alberth> typing "+" in the search box works well :)
17:23:17  <Sylf> almost too systematic
17:23:43  <Alberth> nah, unlucky 13  breaks things sufficiently :p
17:23:56  <Sylf> :D
17:35:03  <Gja> I find NUTS confusing
17:35:07  <Gja> and kind of stupid
17:35:26  <Alberth> how is it confusing?
17:35:50  <Alberth> there is a very simple system behind it
17:36:42  <Alberth> you have different classes of engines, you pick the class, and within it, usually the newest engine
17:36:55  <Alberth> that's it
17:37:41  <Alberth> but I agree, engine names are quite unique :)
17:39:36  <Alberth> but then again, other sets make engines with names that are mostly numbers   foo-2-8-0   foo-2-8-2
17:40:56  <Samu> bool editable = bla bla bla || (config_item.flags & SCRIPTCONFIG_INGAME) != 0; it's here! I can feel it
17:43:19  <Samu> SCRIPTCONFIG_INGAME !=0 means GM_NORMAL, ya?
17:43:55  <Samu> gonna try something
17:43:58  <Samu> brb
17:46:53  <Gja> dont reallly see the need of different classes
17:47:26  <Gja> I am happy with the simple normal game with normal rail and trains
17:49:18  <Alberth> freight doesn't need to be fast, but it's heavy so you need something powerful, but that's slow
17:49:47  <Alberth> passengers want to be fast, but are not heavy, so you can use a fast light but less powerful engine
17:50:01  <Gja> I know but that was not my point
17:51:20  <Alberth> what cargo do you transport? if you do only passengers or only freight, you'll always use the same class
17:51:41  <Alberth> so basically you use just a single engine
17:51:58  <Alberth> perhaps for longer distances a second one
17:52:50  <Alberth> but fair enough, ogfx+  grfs will work too
17:53:18  <Gja> I just ind NUTS strange and rather want a basic trainset to start out with as a new player
17:53:40  <andythenorth> Iron Horse
17:53:46  * andythenorth self-promotes :P
17:53:53  <Alberth> pineapple or iron horse are find if you're into transporting things
17:54:23  <Alberth> if you want to simulate country X, there is likely a train set for that
17:54:49  <Alberth> but they're heavy on the simulation side, rather than nicely playable
18:00:50  <Samu> help me at math! bool editable = false || false & true || false
18:00:56  <Samu> this results in editable = false?
18:02:07  <Alberth> not adding parentheses in mixed || and && expressions is always tricky
18:02:16  <Samu> erm... bool editable = false || true && false || false
18:02:42  <Samu> ah yes the parentessis
18:02:48  <Samu> erm... bool editable = false || (true && false) || false
18:05:08  <Samu> hmm ok, must think
18:07:30  <Samu> bool editable = false || (true && false) || (false || something_that_makes_this_one_true)
18:07:44  <Samu> guess this is what I gotta do
18:13:33  <andythenorth> is there any viable strategy for incrementally patching something like RoadTypes?
18:13:47  <andythenorth> the RoadTypes enum is used in about 200 places, and I can’t change all 200 before trying a compile
18:14:24  <andythenorth> well 78 places to be strict
18:16:01  <Alberth> my strategy is to first make the solution in any way I can
18:16:19  <Alberth> and only then worry about a nice incrmental path
18:16:36  <frosch123> and certainly don't start with a renaming session :)
18:17:17  <Alberth> if you want to change only a few things between compiles, add new names with existing values, and replace old names with new names, could be a strategy
18:17:25  <frosch123> that only makes changes more complicated, since you are touching a lot of code without a real reason
18:18:05  <Alberth> once you did all places, you can remove the old names
18:18:13  <Alberth> and then change the values
18:18:41  <Eddi|zuHause> #define oldname newname
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18:20:33  <andythenorth> I can’t see a way to do it without adding something like RoadTypesNew
18:20:46  <andythenorth> then replacing that later
18:23:26  <andythenorth> NotRoadTypes :P
18:26:27  <Samu> another giant code line created :(
18:26:31  <Samu> bool editable = _game_mode == GM_MENU || ((this->slot != OWNER_DEITY) && !Company::IsValidID(this->slot)) || ((((config_item.flags & SCRIPTCONFIG_INGAME) != 0) || ((this->slot != OWNER_DEITY) && Company::IsValidAiID(this->slot) && Company::Get(this->slot)->ai_instance->IsDead())));
18:27:23  <Samu> though the buttons are shown as clickable, they are, in fact, not clickable when i click on them. what else must i change?
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18:29:41  <andythenorth> this channel seems to currently be home to inept C++ coders :)
18:30:01  <Samu> im sorry :(
18:30:37  <andythenorth> there are two of us at least ;)
18:31:44  <peter1138> hey
18:31:48  <peter1138> i resemble that remark
18:38:02  <V453000>
18:41:07  <Alberth> :D
18:42:43  <peter1138> "lego"
18:43:35  <peter1138> ah it's just worn...
18:44:19  <peter1138> i don't remember being able to see so many molding marks back in the day
18:48:27  <andythenorth> the inserters are not bad eh?
18:49:03  <peter1138> the what?
18:49:42  <andythenorth> tripod things
18:49:49  <andythenorth> whatever they’re called
18:49:57  <andythenorth> I played factorio once
18:50:02  <peter1138> i havne't
18:51:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i played the demo a few months back
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19:26:22  <Samu> I play tetris with openttd code
19:26:38  <Samu> that's how I code, cus i barely understand what i'm doing
19:27:24  <Samu> tetris or lego
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20:13:59  <supermop> yo
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20:41:38  <andythenorth> bed
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21:17:48  <Samu> is svn openttd dead?
21:17:58  <Samu> tried to update, it's slow
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21:36:27  <supermop> a train vehicle normally has 8 sprites, right?
21:36:41  <Eddi|zuHause> 4 or 8, depending on symmetry
21:36:47  <supermop> does it need an extra 8 to be flippable?
21:37:19  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's shorter than 8/8, then it should have two sets of offsets (but the template could take care of that)
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21:37:40  <supermop> i have red lights on one end and white on the other so asymetrical
21:38:13  <supermop> unless headlights/tailights can be switched by some kind of pallette magic?
21:38:14  <Eddi|zuHause> basically the reversed vehicle should shuffle around the sprites
21:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you can use recolouring to change the headlights, yes
21:38:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but that is probably complicated to set up, if it's not prepared already
21:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> lights should have 3 states: red, white, off
21:39:28  <Eddi|zuHause> red lights are only allowed at the end of the train
21:39:56  <Eddi|zuHause> (because if the train is cut in half, it must be recognizable that some part is missing)
21:41:35  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: In OTTD, wouldn't the lights generally be hidden by the following vehicle anyway?
21:41:56  <Eddi|zuHause> a) that's not the point, and b) no, it can be exposed in curves
21:43:54  <Samu> question: when I am viewing the parameters of an AI slot that suddenly starts, the Reset button to bring back the defaults of that AI, doesn't turn itself off. How can I improve this?
21:44:27  <Samu> sec, let me get a screenshot
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21:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so, a single engine should have white/red, an engine at the front should have white/off, an engine in the middle should have off/off and an engine at the end should have off/red
21:48:34  <Eddi|zuHause> (you can check position in chain and total train length (or position from end of chain) to decide the graphics or the recolouring)
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21:51:24  <Samu> - let me explain what happens
21:52:08  <Samu> before the SimpleAI started, just below the Human player slot, I opened the parameter settings
21:52:44  <Samu> The Reset button on the Parameters window is to be enabled for as long as the SimpleAI does not start
21:53:17  <Samu> but then, since the game was running, SimpleAI started, and the Reset button is still clickable. I want to make it unclickable when the AI starts
21:53:27  <Samu> how can i do this?
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21:54:50  <Samu> if I close and open the Parameters window again, the Reset button displays unclickable, as intended
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21:59:15  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: if the engine is physically asymetrical, does it need 8 or 16 sprites?
21:59:21  <Eddi|zuHause> 8
21:59:37  <supermop> assuming player can flip it
21:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said it, flipping can be handled by the template
22:00:00  <supermop> ok
22:00:06  <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. the code that uses the sprites)
22:00:54  <supermop> any sensible reason to have pantograph up/down sprites
22:01:35  <supermop> or better to just say every unit runs with every pantograph up?
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22:27:09  <Samu> hey, i figured it out.
22:27:25  <Samu> it closes the window now, not exactly optimal, but...
22:27:35  <Samu> tomorrow i'll improve this
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23:23:47  <Samu> gah, i need a GS that crashes
23:23:51  <Samu> must test something
23:24:38  <Samu> time to destroy BusyBee
23:27:32  <Samu> is there a reason why crashed GS can't restart?
23:28:28  <Samu> I need to know what I can do about crashed GS parameters
23:54:21  <Samu> okay, new version out ->
23:59:29  <Samu> editing main post

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