Log for #openttd on 13th April 2016:
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00:06:13  <Samu> bug reported:
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09:51:40  <Samu> hi
09:53:00  <Samu> I just finished yesterday's tests
09:53:02  <Samu>
09:53:13  <Samu> everything passes, no errors
09:55:24  <Samu> while conducting these tests, however, i found a bug, common to them all
09:55:35  <Samu> I have reported it here:
09:56:31  <Samu> it's also present in 1.6.0
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10:09:34  <Wolf01> o/
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11:47:44  <peter1138> preferably
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13:08:41  <peter1138> do i need a xeon e3 server?
13:08:56  <Rubidium> not necessarily
13:09:40  <Samu> hey, i found another bug again, let's see if i can reproduce this
13:09:46  <Rubidium> you could also opt for a xeon e5 server
13:11:18  <Samu> it is related to when a server is generating a map and a client joins, client times out even before the map concludes generation
13:11:34  <Samu> client joins a 2nd time, and server is doing lzma errors
13:11:44  <peter1138> they're slightly more expensive
13:13:15  <Rubidium> 25.000 vs 50.000...
13:13:36  <Samu> Error: Game Save Failed?Internal error: cannot initialize compressor
13:13:37  <peter1138> ?
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13:14:11  <Rubidium> oh, you can buy a tray with 12 for 4 lakh ;)
13:14:38  <Rubidium> sorry, my google searches only give me local currency
13:15:39  <Samu> brb, trying to reproduce bug in 1.6.0
13:16:04  <peter1138>
13:17:40  <Samu> nop, bug doesn't happen in 1.6.0, tha'ts weird
13:18:16  <Rubidium> peter1138: what are you going to use that for?
13:19:14  <peter1138> replace my aging dual p4 xeon server
13:19:26  <peter1138> formfactor might be an issue :p
13:20:02  <Rubidium> what does that p4 xeon do now?
13:20:19  <Rubidium> anything computationally expensive, or just play NAS
13:20:51  <peter1138> well, it ran openttd servers in the past
13:20:53  <peter1138> and minecraft
13:21:12  <peter1138> but i rent an ovh server for that currently as it's not up to the job
13:22:19  <peter1138> although actually that price is cheap enough to use as a home workstation for stuffs
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13:23:38  <Rubidium> I just stuck a USB stick into my router for some local file storage and share a VPS with family for mail and the likes
13:24:06  <Rubidium> besides that I don't need a server
13:24:43  <Rubidium> ah well, dinner time!
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13:36:44  <Samu> i can't reproduce the bug on a x64 build
13:36:55  <Samu> only on a win32 build
13:37:12  <Samu> i'm fairly certain this is a memory allocation issue :(
13:40:08  <Samu> what is private bytes, working set and virtual size?
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13:42:54  <supermop> yo
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13:51:56  <supermop> lego man appears
13:51:57  <Samu> i dont understand something
13:52:10  <supermop> i dont understand many things
13:52:11  <Samu> isn't 1.6 GB private bytes enough for win32 applications?
13:53:22  <supermop> i guess a big map coul get bigger than that?
13:53:22  <Samu> about 1.8 GB in Virtual Size column, as peak
13:56:43  <Samu> i don't get memory :(
13:57:22  <Samu> what is the maximum memory a 32 bit application can allocate?
13:57:44  <Samu> I've heard 2 GB, 3 GB and 4 GB... google doesn't help
13:57:51  <Samu> which one is correct
13:58:19  <Samu> even so... 1.8 GB is still within 2 GB
13:58:23  <Wolf01> 32bit for sure not more that 3GB
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14:02:51  <supermop> reading about little DMUs makes me bummed out that i never have been to the mountains in Japan
14:05:24  <Samu> just tested with preset 8
14:05:33  <Samu> it works
14:05:48  <Samu> so this means... preset 9 is bad for openttd running in 32-bits
14:06:57  <Samu> what is memory fragmentation? I hear this term being tossed around too much
14:07:12  <peter1138> it's where memory is fragmented
14:07:49  <Wolf01> :)
14:08:16  <Samu> ok :(
14:10:46  <Samu> here:;a=blob;f=src/saveload/saveload.cpp;h=bd3c83d139643314a6c646a72fe528c0a51d4d9e;hb=HEAD#l2364
14:11:04  <Samu> there should be a warning in the comments about preset 9
14:11:29  <Samu> cannot be used with openttd in 32 bit if the map is sized 4096x4096
14:11:39  <Samu> something like that
14:11:51  <Samu> runs fine in 64-bit
14:12:15  <Samu> with 8 it works
14:13:58  <Samu> or just do this: CreateSaveFilter<LZMASaveFilter>,   0, 2, 8
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14:24:00  <supermop> new idea: whole roster just subsequent generations of this:
14:24:53  <andythenorth> :P
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14:25:14  <sim-al2> Seems legit
14:25:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the japanese version of "Feldbahn"?
14:26:04  <sim-al2> Oh, and the express passenger vehicle is this:
14:26:16  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: think it's hand powered
14:26:21  <sim-al2> Yeah, the Japanese built a lot of 762mm gauge for light freight and passenger
14:26:39  <supermop> was on a little feeder line off the original Tokaido line
14:26:43  <sim-al2> Most of it was converted to 1067mm or abandoned, but some still exists and is even electrified
14:27:35  <supermop> sim-al2: is the "darwin" sticker on that named for the award it will get once it enters mainline traffic?
14:27:38  <sim-al2> Here's the ultimate passenger vehicle for the new roster supermop:  :p
14:27:50  <sim-al2> Heh yeah
14:28:20  <supermop> i thought about tiny early rail buses, but i am not sure there will be a case for them yet
14:28:27  <sim-al2> They wanted to replace the old DMU's in Hokkiado and elsewhere with that thing, but I guess the project was suspended at some point
14:28:28  <Eddi|zuHause> well, west germany had the "SchiStraBus" around the 70's
14:29:23  <supermop> what does that stand for?
14:29:48  <sim-al2> Railbuses seem to suck in OpenTTD tbh, either the case for the money isn't there or you need far more capacity
14:29:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Schi(ene) = Rail, Stra(ße) = Road and Bus = Bus
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14:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so a bus that can go on both roads and rail
14:30:34  <Eddi|zuHause>
14:30:40  <supermop> sim-al2: some town sets and gs might give you low enough passenger volume
14:30:55  <supermop> but yeah, the cost of building the rail is hard to justify
14:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, it was actually the 50s
14:31:32  <supermop> i guess like in real life, it only makes sense if the rail was already there and about to be abandoned
14:31:37  <sim-al2> Although to be fair, railbuses in RL were a last ditch effort to keep losses low
14:32:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd dispute "last ditch"...
14:32:14  <sim-al2> Only a few lucky places where they survived long enough to either be kept in service or be replaced with "real" equipment
14:32:19  <supermop> but in openttd, any even partially served town will see growing passenger volume, not shrinking
14:32:59  <supermop> and if you already have a freight line by a village, you may as well run a real train to it
14:33:01  <sim-al2> Ok, last ditch might be a bit strong, but in the case of the UK for example, a lot of lines got railbuses only to lose all service within 5 or so years
14:33:50  <sim-al2> In the US, gasoline "doodlebugs" appeared during the 1920's and 30's, but certainly didn't save most passenger service
14:34:06  <supermop> sim-al2: openttd doesn't model the demographic and political forces that make railbuses make sense
14:34:23  <sim-al2> Very true
14:34:47  <supermop> increasing car use in the US, aging shrinking rural communities in japan
14:37:03  <supermop> and even if you run a profitable one railbus a month service to some 200 person town, there will be like 300 people waiting on the platform
14:37:52  <supermop> i can conceive of ways to "fix" that via patches or new grfs, but i am not sure they would make the game more fun
14:38:10  <sim-al2> Japan seems to be a very special case, because even with mostly privatized railways (barring the increase in public-private partnerships as of late) there's a sort of social expectation that keeps service going to rural towns, even that one station where one girl uses the train to get to school and back each day
14:40:17  <Eddi|zuHause> well, in germany, railbusses had a "proper evolution"... sure, some (or a lot of) lines lost service, but others kept it
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14:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> and in recent years, some lines even have been reopened
14:42:16  <supermop> in the us, for the last 30 years the focus has been on light rail instead of small heavy rail vehicles
14:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> if "light rail" means "trams", then yes, that also has got a large push recently. except in hamburg.
14:44:13  <supermop> because often right of way exists but track needs to be rebuilt, or a new right of way is secured, which may run in areas not grade separate or even partially as tramways
14:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause> a lot of this runs under the name "Stadtbahn" [city-rail]
14:45:49  <supermop> in the us we have little real new trams until the last 5 years
14:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> which, depending on which city you talk about, is just a fancy new name for "Straßenbahn" [road-rail, meaning tram]
14:46:38  <Eddi|zuHause> in some other places it means higher speed, better separation from road traffic, etc.
14:46:43  <supermop> the other light rails just run partially on streets or plazas in the city center to avoid building tunnels or big stations
14:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes partially underground
14:47:35  <supermop> i think of strassenbahn as tram tram, like you'd see in melbourne  or historically in american cities
14:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:49:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and in some places, people talk of "Stadtbahn" for marketing or political reasons, but essentially it's still a tram
14:49:35  <supermop> because in middle school german, the photo in the text book vocab section was of a 70s era single car tram
14:50:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and then you have hybrid systems like Karlsruhe or Kassel, where the same vehicle can operate both as tram an on "proper" rail
14:51:36  <Eddi|zuHause> so in the city it can run as tram, and in rural areas, it can use existing (or reopened) rail lines
14:52:43  <Eddi|zuHause> even some mainline train services have been converted to this hybrid model, so you have these trams running on the same track that freight and express trains use
14:52:45  <sim-al2> The systems where they run underground through the center of the city are rather nice too
14:52:47  <supermop> in the us, most of the light rail is standard guage, but FRA has very strict crash standards so they cant run on any line shared or connected to regular mainline traffic
14:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, trams and trains have vastly different regulations
14:53:26  <supermop> which is why you see stupid things here like a locomotive hauled commuter train of 1-3 cars
14:53:42  <sim-al2> The major problem is that most of the existing tracks were removed or paved over anyway, and freight tracks are rarely in the a good place for passenger use
14:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> well, because of the relative success of railbusses here, when this hybrid model came up, lots of lines were just on the brink of being closed, or were not closed for very long
14:55:01  <supermop> and even on some push-pull trains, if the cars are a little older, NJT runs the cab car empty
14:55:22  <supermop> you cant sit in them because the are holding the whole car as a crumple zone
14:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> also, a city like Kassel has a special situation because of the weird german-german border situation kept some lines open that otherwise would be closed, and kept some lines closed but in a "do not touch" mode
14:56:56  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: wasn't there a west Berlin subway line that ran through East Berlin, but with all the eastern stations sealed off?
14:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. two lines, one completely sealed off, and the other had an interconnection point that was only accessible for western citizens
14:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause> which then had duty-free shops and stuff, like the international area at an airport
14:58:53  <supermop> a family friend from when we lived in the UK recounted getting permission to travel to East Berlin in the 80s, and they took the subway there?
14:59:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that's entirely plausible
14:59:36  <Eddi|zuHause> confusingly enough, there is also an S-Bahn line that runs underground
15:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> so in "Friedrichstraße" station, you have an overground S-Bahn, an underground S-Bahn and the subway connected on east-berlin territory
15:01:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and once there, you could go through the checkpoint into east germany
15:01:12  <supermop> said that after passport control, they went through a door into the east part of the station
15:01:16  <Eddi|zuHause> or at least east berlin
15:01:43  <supermop> but the door was unmarked and seamless from the east side
15:01:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there was also an east german S-Bahn platform, which was sealed off from the ones accessible from west berlin
15:03:30  <supermop> what was the deal with the maglev metro line that the west used on a platform that used to serve the east, which was then reverted after reunification
15:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> if you look at the current layout of Friedrichstraße (upper) station, you have 3 platforms with 6 tracks. 2 for S-Bahn and 4 for mainline trains. during the divided city phase, it was 2 eastern S-Bahn, 2 western S-Bahn and 2 mainline (also part of western/international section)
15:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the maglev thingie was on a disused subway line
15:04:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that was cut in half by the separation
15:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> and it was decided to rebuild the subway to its old state, instead of converting the whole network to maglev
15:07:52  <supermop> i wonder if these lower speed maglevs are at all cost effective vs building a new rubber tired or steel rail vehcle
15:08:22  <Eddi|zuHause> no clue
15:09:32  <sim-al2> Given the track record, I'm guessing probably no
15:10:00  <sim-al2> Although, Bejing is building a new maglev suburban line
15:10:30  <sim-al2> Apparently noise and acceleration were the major concerns in that decision
15:10:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, even if they were slightly more cost effective, the main problem is usually that you'd have to convert the whole network, or build a completely separate network
15:11:25  <Eddi|zuHause> both of which will outweigh the benefits
15:12:19  <sim-al2> In Bejing's case, they have one true commuter line, with some trains on the intercity lines and the subway system making up for it
15:12:54  <sim-al2> Still, the pollution from road vehicles is apparently bad enough to justify it
15:13:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure they have a giant traffic planning problem ahead of them
15:26:17  <supermop> there is that new line this year at incheon in seoul, but i think that is sort of between slow and fast
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16:02:22  <Samu> hey Alberth, can i suggest renaming Human player to Human company? avoids some confusion
16:02:51  <Samu> sometimes those companies have no players in it, but it still says Human player
16:03:15  <Alberth> how is it a human company then?
16:03:34  <Samu> someone created a company, then abandoned game
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16:04:01  <Samu> company stays there, but without anyone in it
16:04:38  <Alberth> the someone is still the owner :)
16:05:16  <Alberth> computer needs some time to decide he's not coming back :)
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16:13:42  <Samu> my second trench of results:
16:14:24  <Samu> lzo is bugged on release x64 build
16:15:47  <Samu> using visual studio 2015 express with the update 2
16:15:59  <supermop> uploaded fixed length placeholders
16:16:42  <Samu> version of openttd is ... hmm
16:16:52  <Samu> r27537
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16:18:20  <Alberth> looks consistent :)
16:21:26  <Samu> how did you build the openttd 1.6.0?
16:21:35  <Samu> the one that is downloaded from the website?
16:22:05  <Samu> is it msvc?
16:22:18  <Samu> vs
16:22:22  <Samu> visual studio =
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16:23:02  <Xaroth|Work> they have a buildfarm to do that
16:23:23  <Samu> anyway, the version 1.6.0 that is downloaded can't load the lzo, both the 32-bit and 64-bit
16:24:27  <Samu> but my 32-bit build can load, true that I use a different openttd version though, r27537
16:25:30  <Samu> omg, i can download r27537 too, i'm so dumb sometimes
16:25:38  <Samu> gonna test that version, brb
16:25:47  <peter1138> i'm still amused you're wasting so much time on this
16:28:38  <Samu> ok tested your build of r27537. the 32-bit version can load the savegame, the 64-bit cannot, so it's behaving just like here.
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16:31:22  <Samu> and there's still the dpi scalling issue on these versions too
16:31:29  <Samu> but that's some other matter
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16:38:15  <Alberth> so maybe the savegame is broken?
16:38:29  <Samu> nope, it loads on the other builds fine
16:38:43  <Samu> but says it's broken on x64 release
16:39:28  <Samu> unexpected end of chunk
16:39:48  <Samu> i've uploaded a save yesterday, let me give u link brb
16:42:36  <Samu>!1263&authkey=!AHcsjB_LoOMjjK0&ithint=file%2csav
16:42:44  <Samu> file name is Unnamed, 1950-01-02 lzo preset 0.sav
16:45:19  <Samu> if i recall, that save was generated  with the debug x64 build
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17:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27538 /trunk/src/lang (hebrew.txt luxembourgish.txt) (2016-04-13 19:45:37 +0200 )
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> hebrew: 18 changes by dnd_man
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> luxembourgish: 1 change by Phreeze
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17:58:39  <supermop> i always liked this guy:
18:00:23  <Wolf01> bye
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18:07:58  <supermop_> no need for a late game heavy DC shunter though
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18:11:04  <andythenorth> o/
18:11:30  <andythenorth> ho actual useful FIRS ideas :D
18:12:29  *** supermop [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:14:28  <supermop_> andythenorth: ?
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18:17:16  <andythenorth> supermop_: dunno :)
18:17:26  <andythenorth> quak
18:17:38  <supermop_> i want to drive that thing to work every day
18:18:27  <Alberth> :)
18:18:42  <frosch123> hola
18:20:39  <Alberth> hoi
18:26:28  <andythenorth> hmm committed to wrong git branch
18:27:04  <Alberth> cherry pick, and a hard reset :)
18:27:17  <andythenorth> or rebase
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18:29:44  <supermop_> farm economy?
18:37:02  <Samu> this was unexpected. toyland was able to save with preset 9 of lzma on 32-bit
18:39:00  <andythenorth> farm and gas it seems
18:40:12  <Samu> there are less variables on toyland than on subtropical?
18:41:21  <Samu> i don't understand, now it also works for subtropic
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18:42:06  <Samu> why are the debug versions bugged?
18:42:28  <Samu> i need to double test this on all 4 climates, brb
18:44:24  <Samu> nop, release win32 just got the internal error
18:45:02  <Samu> so it's random :(
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18:47:08  <Samu> who's a memory expert here? hint me to the issue
18:49:50  <Alberth> that doesn't sounds very feasible, tbh
18:50:51  <Samu> I belive it's related to memory allocation: problem occurs with openttd configured to use max_compression with lzma encoder, the preset 9. According to lzma, this preset needs needs 674 MiB on top of openttd
18:51:11  <Samu> map is also giant, 4096x4096
18:51:37  <Samu> i see virtual size going up to about 1.8 GB
18:51:50  <Samu> openttd process virtual memory size
18:51:58  <Samu> working set is at about 1.6 GB
18:52:41  <Samu> some few times, just like a few minutes ago, it was able to generate the savegame
18:52:53  <Samu> then i tried to save a 2nd time, and it failed
18:53:13  <Alberth> you don't have 8G or more, or so?
18:53:43  <Samu> I do, but openttd is 32-bit for this testing, i don't know how the memory allocation limits work though, :(
18:53:47  <Alberth> but yeah, if memory allocation fails, you're pretty much dead
18:53:57  <supermop_> natural gas worthless in openttd
18:54:44  <Alberth> 3G in 32bit, maybe even 2.5G   don't know how much windows eats
18:54:59  <andythenorth> supermop_: just transport it as LPG?
18:55:04  <andythenorth> what’s wrong with it? o_O
18:55:12  <andythenorth> or use PIPE
18:55:22  <andythenorth> use it for heating, or petrochemical cracking
18:55:28  <supermop_> in the us its all pipelines
18:55:35  <Alberth> blow it out behind the train, and ignite :p
18:55:42  <supermop_> no vehicles
18:56:09  <V453000> good evening gentlemen
18:56:10  <supermop_> delivering eng. sup or drilling equipment could be interesting
18:56:17  <Alberth> evening V
18:57:33  <supermop_> i think it would be more interesting to deliver boiler vessels and other heavy equipment to power plants than the fuel
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19:20:40  <supermop_> ok
19:21:48  <supermop_> andythenorth: what should i do next? i have a list of trains, and sprites to place hold for sizes 4/8 through 10/8
19:22:32  * andythenorth reads the issue
19:22:59  <andythenorth> supermop_: names?
19:23:14  <supermop_> cute names for about half
19:23:26  <supermop_> and a pool of name ideas not sure how to allocate
19:24:03  <andythenorth> mammals, mountains, real-life nicknames, names of city constructed in, name of designer
19:24:12  <supermop_> like does a express steam or an express emu get "tsubame"
19:24:19  <andythenorth> and if you have any twin-unit diesels or electrics, name them after a wind of the world
19:24:34  <supermop_> like articulated?
19:24:45  <andythenorth> or like the chinook in brit
19:24:49  <supermop_> hmm
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19:25:18  <supermop_> i guess i could double up the little diesel i hacked from little bear
19:25:27  <andythenorth> you don’t have to have one :)
19:25:38  <andythenorth> but you do have to have a 4-8-0 steam engine, it’s the set rule
19:25:42  <andythenorth> forgot to mention that :D
19:25:43  <supermop_> for an articulated, have the later heavy freight electric
19:25:49  <supermop_> ok
19:25:56  <supermop_> do i need a mikado named mikado?
19:26:00  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:26:03  <andythenorth> probably
19:26:12  <supermop_> was thinking i would have a mikado named Taisho
19:26:37  <supermop_> its still an emperor, and chronologically appropriate
19:27:28  <supermop_> can i use ō in openttd?
19:28:10  <supermop_> taisho maybe a little too late at 1912 but i think it works
19:29:22  <andythenorth> supermop_: you’ll need freight wagons
19:29:36  <supermop_> can i steal from pony for now?
19:29:54  <andythenorth> you would be better stealing from Antelope
19:29:58  <andythenorth> it’s cape gauge
19:30:28  <andythenorth> the wheels are less visible in \ / _ views for narrow gauge
19:30:45  <andythenorth> and vehicles are sometimes 1-2px smaller in height
19:32:07  <andythenorth> ho supermop_ modern JR freight is *relatively* fast
19:32:10  <andythenorth> 100kph or so
19:33:09  <supermop_> i dont want to read about some detailed N scal JR set up andythenorth now how can i possibly save up money for wedding
19:33:18  <andythenorth> chibi RL
19:33:36  <andythenorth> supermop_: just skip the toy trains
19:33:59  <andythenorth> ;)
19:34:06  <supermop_> i like the little JRL containers
19:34:45  <supermop_> when i accidentally took a train out north of asakusa once ended up passing a yard full of those
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19:35:35  <andythenorth> supermop_: the freight car types are listed here
19:36:21  <supermop_> start out with test games with only gondolas?
19:37:17  <supermop_>
19:37:36  <andythenorth> supermop_: mail car
19:37:48  <andythenorth> you can get that from box car or reefer in antelope
19:37:50  * andythenorth checks
19:38:50  <andythenorth> standard gauge reefer in antelope
19:39:18  <supermop_> hmm where should 2-8-2 go
19:39:27  <supermop_> vis a vis 4-8-0
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19:40:59  <supermop_> either the last one in the 40s or one in late 1890s cold be
19:44:59  <Samu> woah for the first time ever i see openttd peak cpu usage going to 31.6%
19:45:03  <supermop_> jr set says this thing is around 400hp :
19:45:33  <supermop_> seems high
19:45:45  <Samu> on an 8 core
19:46:13  <Samu> 15 AIs, autosaving and client joining
19:46:15  <Samu> keks
19:46:37  <Samu> and no pause on join of course
19:48:48  <andythenorth> supermop_: steam hp has to be dibbled
19:48:56  <andythenorth> less than 300 is a waste of time
19:50:27  <supermop_> going to fake 2-8-2 from 1900 to 1910 i think
19:55:03  <supermop_> when does pony 4-8-0 come about?
19:55:22  <andythenorth> 1930s
19:56:53  <supermop_> ok
19:58:07  <supermop_> freight?
19:58:47  <Samu> how do i create a compatible 1.6.0 openttd but with my patches applied? or is it forbidden?
20:02:31  <glx> it's not recommended
20:04:06  <Samu> ok, i understand
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20:05:17  <Samu> new results: for max
20:05:20  <Samu> compression
20:05:21  <Samu>
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20:24:25  <Samu> hmm, it's just not possible to have autosave enabled, clients always timeout
20:25:23  <Samu> i have a suggestion
20:25:27  <Samu> or idea
20:25:46  <Samu> when a server starts the autosave, don't compress it
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20:26:05  <Samu> just save it as fast as it can, to avoid those 20 seconds timeout on the client
20:26:35  <Alberth> so how big is you ISP connection?
20:27:01  <Samu> the autosave is local i think
20:27:15  <Alberth> in MP when connecting to server?
20:27:44  <Alberth> how is the remote machine a file at your local disk then?
20:27:50  <Alberth> +getting
20:28:00  <Samu> when a client joins, then the save that is sent to the client is compressed, but make autosave not compressed. for some reason, only autosave triggers those 20 seconds timeout
20:28:26  <Alberth> just disable autosave at the server?
20:28:57  <Samu> yes, but...
20:29:13  <Samu> uhm... how to explain it
20:29:38  <Alberth> I don't get it, you need to copy the map, no way around it
20:29:49  <Samu> suppose someone's server crashed and he has to send in the last autosave to someone to debug
20:29:50  <Alberth> after that saving is a separate thread
20:29:58  <Alberth> it can take 30 minutes
20:30:34  <Alberth> maybe a bit less, as a year takes 13 minutes :p
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20:32:01  <Gja> hmm can you enable compression for autosave?
20:32:20  <Samu> it currently uses 1 preset for all saves
20:33:00  <Samu> I was thinking of adding some more flexibility, autosave has some issues on server, I was suggesting no compression for autosaving, as this file is not sent to the client, it's local
20:33:33  <Samu> for someone joining a server, then of course, send the compressed file
20:34:19  <Gja> Seems like a neat compromise, however even with zlib or lzo it is still quite fast
20:34:55  <Samu> when manually saving a game, i suppose compressed file is also fine
20:36:23  <Samu> lzo is bugged on release x64 build at the moment, it's super fast compression
20:36:33  <Samu> could be used for autosaves, if it gets fixed
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20:37:09  <Gja> Ah
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20:43:37  <andythenorth> supermop_: bed for me
20:43:47  <supermop_> ok
20:44:13  <supermop_> ill try to wrap up the spreadsheet now i guess?
20:44:16  <sim-al2> Here's a funny locomotive:
20:44:43  <supermop_> don't want to do more pixel drawing before testing/prototyping
20:45:14  <sim-al2> Oh yeah, I just noticed you mentioned the Toei locomotive earlier
20:45:49  <andythenorth> supermop_: I won’t likely get near any code for days or weeks :)
20:45:53  <andythenorth> sorry
20:45:56  <andythenorth> much work work
20:45:59  <supermop_> thats fine with me
20:46:28  <supermop_> hoping i can get enough together that the roster can launch with the other two
20:46:56  <supermop_> can add more steam locomotives later
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21:01:10  <Samu> i think there is a bug with terragenesis
21:01:45  <Samu> on arctic tileset, i have created max height of 255, and snow line at 127. once it generated the map it says no suitable places for forest industry
21:02:10  <Samu> on a map 4096x4096 I find that very unlikely
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21:02:57  <peter1138> tgp was never designed for such limits
21:03:59  <peter1138> and the forest industry is quite limited, regardless of tgp
21:04:42  <peter1138> tgp produces unsatisfactory maps for arctic and subtropic
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21:12:37  <supermop_> wish hammatsucho was closer to tsukiji
21:13:08  <supermop_> then all 4 monorails could have geographically appropriate names starting with T
21:20:57  <supermop_> my names are going to be pretty tokyo-centric
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21:26:08  <Samu> really... i don't understand these formats... they don't work like I suppose they do, always have to double check
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21:33:57  <Samu> so, compressor none doesn't work for networking
21:34:01  <Samu> now I know
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21:50:39  <Samu> what is the name of that thing that happens when a client joins a server and the server sends the map to the client?
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21:50:46  <Samu> a stream?
21:50:50  <Samu> a file?
21:50:58  <Samu> a ... something else?
21:51:33  <Samu> i wanna distinguish the autosave with the action of sending a map to a client joining a server, apparently these two are different things
21:51:44  <Samu> i don't know the correct wording
21:52:57  <Samu> distinguish the autosave from* the action
21:52:59  <Samu> typo
22:01:11  <supermop_> ok what to name maglevs
22:02:14  <sim-al2> What era?
22:02:33  <sim-al2> I mean, present, future, etc
22:03:04  <sim-al2> The new Chuo shinkansen maglev has been named L0
22:05:13  <supermop_> all names need to be fake, whimsical, and relevant to prototypes
22:05:52  <supermop_> as everything is fictionalized drawing inspiration from various prototypes but in the style of original TT vehicles
22:07:09  <supermop_> i have "yamanashi" and "kofu" now, but i might name them Shinji and hideo / shima and sogo
22:07:18  <sim-al2> Oh ok
22:07:30  <supermop_> after engineers who worked on the original tokaido shinkansen
22:09:31  <supermop_> idk if i will give all the SG shinkansens place names, or train names, or concept names
22:10:13  <supermop_> maybe i switch all of the monorails to food names
22:15:32  <supermop_> currently i dont use nozomi or hikari for any train
22:24:42  <Samu> you guys like to draw a lot of grfs
22:25:28  <Samu> fake -> efak, Efa K
22:25:33  <Samu> just a name
22:25:44  <Samu> Ekaf
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22:27:52  <Samu> im experimenting with zlib preset 2
22:28:02  <Samu> seems the ideal candidate for autosaves
22:28:57  <Samu> zlib preset 1 is as fast as zlib preset 2, but compresses less
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23:09:59  <Flygon__> sim-al2: Sounds like the 0-series Shinkansen
23:10:01  <Flygon__> No name?
23:10:04  <Flygon__> Use 0 placeholder!
23:10:05  *** Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
23:10:53  <Samu> I'm gonna study a feasible solution tomorrow for tackling this autosave stuff, there must be a way to optimize this without having the clients drop from the game
23:12:16  <Samu> i count 4 ways to trigger the encoding/decoding function with just the server
23:13:14  <Samu> 1. manual load/save, 2. autosave, 3. sending a map to client, 4 - click on a savegame from a list
23:13:53  <Samu> autosave is definitely the number 1 culprit
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23:18:49  <Samu> cyas goodnight
23:23:16  *** Samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
23:24:34  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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23:40:20  <Bowen> anyone here?
23:40:41  *** Bowen is now known as BowenC2C
23:43:10  <BowenC2C> is... anyone ever here
23:43:12  <BowenC2C> ?
23:43:20  <sim-al2> No
23:43:32  <BowenC2C> lol
23:43:33  <sim-al2> (kidding)
23:43:35  <BowenC2C> hey sim
23:43:40  <sim-al2> Just a slow time right now
23:43:47  <BowenC2C> sorry, ive never got an answer here lol
23:44:01  <sim-al2> It's dinner or approaching dinner in the Americas, and around midnight in Europe
23:44:06  <BowenC2C> whats up with server 2?
23:44:13  <sim-al2> Is it dead?
23:44:16  <BowenC2C> yeah its 00:44 here in the uk
23:44:18  <BowenC2C> yeah
23:44:32  <sim-al2> Oh damn. Are you on #/r/openttd?
23:44:56  <BowenC2C> in the irc?
23:45:11  <sim-al2> Yeah, so that we don't spam up this channel
23:45:16  <BowenC2C> ill join it
23:46:06  <BowenC2C> im in #/r/openttd
23:46:23  <sim-al2> Errr, I don't see you?
23:46:32  <sim-al2> oh nvm

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