Log for #openttd on 22nd April 2016:
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09:58:06  <Wolf01> o/
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13:00:31  <Wolf01> I think V453000 already knows that forum is broken down...
13:05:02  <peter1138> who what
13:17:27  <V453000> because it was useless?
13:26:34  <peter1138> what who
13:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> doctor?
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13:43:48  <supermop> good morning
13:49:19  <Rubidium> good evening
13:51:01  <supermop> asia megacity weather today
13:51:18  <supermop> 70 now with high of 79, but hazy and very humid
13:51:33  <supermop> makes me wish i was in Sai Gon
13:52:00  <Rubidium> oh, then it's really cool here... only 40
13:53:20  <supermop> ha
13:53:33  <supermop> thankfully not 40 yet here
13:53:55  <Rubidium> but then, I am in asia megacity (I'd guess)
13:54:01  <supermop> just a week and a half ago it was still as cold as 40 here and i was wishing it would be as hot as 40
13:54:27  <supermop> which one?
13:55:04  <Rubidium> the 8th Asian one by size
13:55:20  <supermop> ha by what sizing criteria?
13:55:40  <supermop> counting surrounding provincial population, or city proper only?
13:55:59  <Eddi|zuHause> it's barely even 10 here
13:56:09  <supermop> should have worn shorts to the office here
13:56:11  <Rubidium> <- that definition
13:56:18  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: at least it's not 10
13:56:50  <supermop> im in the 8th overall by that chart then
13:58:31  <Rubidium> when I go to home I'll get in the "other", less sweaty 40 degrees
13:59:14  <supermop> surprised berlin didn't crack that list
13:59:27  <supermop> seems like it would have a wide enough outlying area
13:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> berlin has only like 4.5 million
14:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (i think it peaked in the 1920s with 6 million)
14:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> turns out, massive war destruction and divided isolation isn't good for city growth
14:00:43  * Rubidium wonders what belongs to a city and what doesn't belong to a city
14:01:08  <Rubidium> e.g. Enschede is said to be in the outskirts of Amsterdam, but that would imply it is relatively close, right?
14:01:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, just that there's hardly any non-urban area inbetween
14:01:50  <supermop> Rubidium: opinions differ on that
14:02:56  <Rubidium> well, there's a bit of about 30 kilometer with effectively nothing but forest between Amsterdam and Enschede
14:02:57  <supermop> a lot of people count New York in a way that gives it only like 9 million instead of the 23 or so on that list
14:03:10  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: germany was never as centralized as england or france, so berlin was never that much of an attention center to attract 10 million people on its own. the only german mega-city is the ruhr-area, where many smaller cities basically merged into one metropolitan area
14:03:48  <supermop> Rubidium: i'd say 30 km of forest definitely is the border of the urban area
14:04:07  <Rubidium> also, Enschede is at the German border at the opposite side of the country as Amsterdam
14:04:13  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: there's also a counting which includes Boston, New York and Washington areas into "Bosnywash"
14:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that just means your country is tiny :p
14:05:11  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: i'd say any city that takes 8 hours by fastest train to traverse on one axis and 20 minutes on the other axis is stretching the definition a bit
14:05:31  <supermop> by car more like 12 hours
14:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but how much of the area that you cross from washington to boston is "rural"?
14:06:01  <supermop> and spans 3-4 different climates
14:06:21  <supermop> there are a lot of less developed pockets in central NJ
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14:06:26  <supermop> around princeton
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14:07:12  <supermop> the overall density of NJ is high and homogeneous at a large scale, but on the town or neighborhood scale it is like swiss cheese
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14:07:32  <supermop> same with parts of maryland on the drive between here and DC
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14:09:07  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: anyway, the point was that this definition of "megacity" doesn't stop at political city borders, but includes neighbouring cities
14:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> so if the city of new york has 9 million, the other 12 million come from other cities, like across the river
14:10:35  <supermop> and on long island, etc
14:11:18  <Rubidium> it's apparantly determined by commuting patterns
14:11:29  <supermop> just stating that the bos-wash concept is a bit extreme as it counts areas that dont commute with each other, and contains many pockets of undeveloped land
14:12:18  <supermop> a few people do commute between washington and NYC by shuttle flights, but that is a tiny percentage, and usually not every day all year
14:12:29  <supermop> just for certain projects or court cases
14:12:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that kinda stretches the definition of "commute"
14:13:08  <supermop> yeah, so i wouldnt count it
14:13:20  <supermop> b that definition a lot of New Yorkers
14:13:27  <supermop> "commute" to LA
14:14:14  <Eddi|zuHause> a german court recently ruled that a commute must end at one single working place, so when you work at different places, the travel to those places is considered work time
14:14:26  <supermop> also some people "commute" from Osaka to Tokyo by Shinkansen
14:14:43  <Rubidium>
14:14:53  <Rubidium> is similar to your BosWash
14:15:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, very
14:15:27  <Rubidium> but nevertheless, it's about the average commute not the extremes
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14:15:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but by that definition, you'd also merge Amsterdam and the Rhein-Ruhr area
14:16:44  <supermop> i guess it does get fuzzy in Princeton NJ, where maybe 35% of people commute to NYC, and 35% commute to Philadelphia, and the rest work locally
14:17:12  <supermop> in Connecticut no one commutes to Boston,
14:17:36  <supermop> but in Rhode Island, some Commute to Boston and some commute to Conecticut
14:17:38  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's even worse:
14:18:08  <supermop> Rubidium: commute over the Alps?
14:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> crossing the north sea and the alps is really stretching it :p
14:18:37  <Rubidium> it's on Wikipedia, so it must be true
14:21:49  <supermop> It always strikes me, when I fly from my parents city in Ohio back to NYC at night,
14:21:50  <Rubidium> though Greater Copenhagen also contains Malmo
14:22:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but on this map: you can clearly see how differently structured decentralized germany is from centralized france
14:22:15  <supermop> that almost as soon as you take off you can start to see the glowing core of NY
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14:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> in france you have a giant red blob, and then yellow, and in germany you have loads of tiny red blobs
14:22:35  <supermop> even though its more than 500 miles away and over a mountain range
14:23:19  <supermop> poor showing by central VN on that one
14:23:23  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I think a major thing in there is the size of the area that is used
14:23:43  <Rubidium> e.g. Moscow and St Petersburg I would expect as red dots, but they are nowhere to be see
14:23:49  <supermop> Mekong and red river delta show up redder than I expected though
14:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly
14:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess data resolution varies by country
14:24:24  <Rubidium> also in France you see much larger areas with the same shade, so they probably used departements instead of counties that seem to be used in Germany
14:24:39  <Rubidium> in the Netherlands provinces seem to be used
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14:26:34  <supermop> damnit
14:26:59  <Rubidium> interestingly enough the Dutch metropolitan area is more or less donut shaped
14:27:12  <supermop> other night our fancy bottle of tobala mezcal we brought back from oaxaca fell off of fridge and broke
14:27:32  <Rubidium> a ring of large towns around a rural area (which is now effectively protected from urbanisation)
14:28:00  <supermop> then last night, fiance's office was broken into and computers stolen along with the other fancy bottle for mezcal, that she kept at her desk to share with team mates
14:28:18  <supermop> now we need to go back to mexico
14:28:21  <Wolf01> the curse of the mezcal bottle
14:28:58  <supermop> im sure by boss will accept all that as grounds for personal emergency trip to Mexico Ciy
14:28:59  <supermop> city
14:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you know you can order stuff on the internet now?
14:29:22  <supermop> not that
14:29:47  <supermop> mezcal is very expensive here
14:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably hire mexicans over the internet, too :p
14:30:02  <supermop> these bottles were about 30 usd in mexico,
14:30:15  <supermop> and the bottles that were 20 usd there are 150 here
14:30:30  <supermop> and the small distillers dont have any us distribution
14:31:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably have to deal with loads of customs stuff to export/import alcohol
14:31:09  <supermop> i didnt want to ask for any wedding gifts, but i think i will put "go to mexico and get me mezcal" on the gift registry
14:31:27  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: yes, NAFTA doesn't do us individuals any favors
14:31:50  <Rubidium> so, a round trip seems to be about 500 USD
14:32:27  <Rubidium> I reckon you may import two bottles, since it's distilled... so the price difference needs to be 250 USD
14:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but "over the internet" i meant something like: hire someone in mexico to go to the store and send you a package
14:33:04  <supermop> Rubidium: we get 2L
14:33:09  <Rubidium> in other words, getting it yourself is about 120 USD more expensive per bottle (assuming you can get it for cheap at the airport)
14:33:20  <supermop> so two 750ml bottles and one 500
14:34:02  <supermop> but you must account for the good cheap food one eats in Mexico
14:34:08  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: make sure to include a letter in the package stating this is a gift for the long friendship you built
14:34:13  <supermop> haha
14:34:51  <supermop> and i will just happen to send a gift for the price of the bottles and shipping plus a little extra
14:35:01  <Rubidium> if you can't get it for cheap at the airport, you also need to include transport
14:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's no point in sending a 20$ bottle if you have to pay 100$ customs fees
14:35:20  <Rubidium> so Eddi|zuHause's idea is better
14:35:26  <supermop> metro is about 0.05 USD
14:36:00  <Rubidium> no extortion rates for airport links like in the UK and Delhi
14:36:23  <Rubidium> although India's way better with extortion rates at other places
14:36:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and do absolutely make sure there's no receit for the actual bottle in the package :p
14:36:33  <supermop> but the best mezcal is in Oaxaca, and flights from Mexico DF to OAX are more expensive than flights from JFK to MEX
14:37:04  <supermop> so i guess i should email the Zapotec tour guide we had in Oaxaca
14:37:34  <Rubidium> I think, in general, a foreigner pays 15 to 25 times more than a local for musea/tourist attractions
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14:39:20  <supermop> of course
14:40:12  <supermop> our tour guide regaled us of the time he accidentally bought a garbage bag full of weed for around 100 usd
14:40:55  <supermop> he having grown up in California assumed that would be a normal price to pay when he moved back
14:49:52  <supermop> sound like most of her work was saved though
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14:53:27  <andythenorth> Alberth: o/
14:53:34  <Alberth> hi hi :)
14:53:54  <andythenorth> I am playing a BB game on a 256x256 map
14:54:03  <Alberth> :)
14:54:07  <andythenorth> I am 30 years in, and I would kind of like it to build some new industries
14:54:11  <andythenorth> I wonder if that’s a good idea
14:54:18  <andythenorth> I could just build them myself :P
14:54:44  <Alberth> would make more sense as an industrial bee :)
14:54:57  <andythenorth> worker bee
14:55:19  <andythenorth> modular bee :P
14:55:27  <andythenorth> GS has libraries?
14:55:35  <Alberth> worker bee sounds good :)
14:55:49  <Alberth> there are GS libraries
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14:55:57  <andythenorth> eh, I don’t want to over-engineer, just wondering if there is a case for a library of simple goals
14:55:58  <Alberth> BB doesn't use them
14:56:31  <Alberth> I don't know what the GS library does in terms of goals
14:56:40  <Alberth> maybe it already supports them
14:56:43  <supermop> complete a primary goal and it builds a secondary industry?
14:56:59  <Alberth> stuff like that, I would say
14:57:29  <andythenorth> the idea I have is not for industries as rewards
14:57:53  <andythenorth> I was thinking that the script might try and watch the number of industries, possibly dividing the map into quadrants
14:58:02  <andythenorth> and build more when it’s getting harder to assign goals
14:58:08  <andythenorth> we already do a portion of that in BB
14:58:09  <supermop> sounds good
14:58:21  <andythenorth> we track the available industry-cargo pairs iirc?
14:58:54  <Alberth> not really, we have a set of suppliers and a set of accpeting industries
14:58:58  <supermop> i was thinking the industry wouldn't be a reward, but just not crowd the map with dormant tertiary industries before their supply chains are established
14:59:11  <Alberth> but you could track how good connections can be made
14:59:22  <Alberth> or what the player prefers
15:00:03  <Alberth> supermop: those don't really exist in eg firs
15:00:13  <andythenorth> my map is running out of some industry types, BB will struggle to assign goals
15:00:41  <Alberth> it's trying to tell you to like other industries :p
15:01:02  <Alberth> but yeah, could be
15:01:14  <Alberth> I could see that as an extension
15:03:02  <andythenorth> it doesn’t need to be perfect
15:03:07  <andythenorth> hmm
15:03:34  <andythenorth> I often found with flash games that some pseudo-random was as effective as a carefully figured out detailed deterministic algorithm
15:04:30  * andythenorth wonders if BB could just roll a dice every n years for founding an industry
15:04:53  <andythenorth> the only nice detail I think is essential is then assigning a goal to that industry
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15:16:52  <V453000> :>
15:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yay for sites that just display empty pages...
15:19:10  <Alberth> looking good V! :)
15:19:13  <V453000> :D it's that direct I see
15:19:22  <V453000> <3 thanks, was a lot of work
15:20:02  <Alberth> lots of metal bits, looks used :)
15:20:38  <andythenorth> page not worky :(
15:21:07  <ST2> send the full one:
15:21:08  <ST2> xD
15:21:47  <V453000> yeah
15:21:52  <Alkel_U3> it worky, but it took me like 2 minutes to get just the html, now for the imges and css
15:22:04  <Alberth> "thrower" is a bit off, perhaps, though :p
15:22:10  <V453000> something might be borken
15:22:22  <andythenorth> V453000: the lighting element is awesome
15:23:26  <Alkel_U3> everyone got so excited about the turret they totally overwhelmed the servers? :-)
15:23:26  <V453000> metal bits are factorio style Alberth :P
15:24:06  <V453000> andythenorth: yeah ... but the biggest hell was to get the thing work in sprites in factorio projection system. :) all done now
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15:25:37  <V453000> Apparently, Alkel_U3 :D
15:25:37  <V453000> idk what is going on
15:25:37  <V453000> but something is
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15:57:17  <supermop> andythenorth: any reason to not carry livestock in this modern  silvery box car?
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15:58:53  <supermop> and does milk travel better in the refridgerator car or the tanker?
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16:05:58  <andythenorth> supermop: does the box car refit livestock? :o :)
16:06:16  <supermop> yep!
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16:06:37  <andythenorth> ha ha
16:06:54  <andythenorth> edibles tanker and reefer have same payment curve, pick the one you like the look of
16:07:20  <andythenorth> the mantra of Iron Horse is ‘one obvious choice’
16:07:33  <andythenorth> and when there is more than once choice ‘pick the one you like the look of'
16:07:40  <supermop> all but passengers, clay, coal, ore, sand, scrap
16:07:47  <andythenorth> piece goods
16:07:52  <supermop> for the 160kmh boxcar
16:08:40  <supermop> might put milk in the container carrier or the gondola
16:09:03  <supermop> to carry supplies to clay pit on return trip
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16:11:44  <supermop> boxcar is 160kmh whereas livestock car is 136
16:12:03  <supermop> not planning on running this train with vulcans though
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16:41:49  <supermop> Still cant bring myself to map out japanese cars
16:42:04  <supermop> maybe ill start drawing sprites for the trains
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16:56:01  <andythenorth> supermop: eh, well maybe I’ll poke at the wagons tonight
16:56:23  <supermop> not trying to be lazy
16:56:52  <supermop> just, they dont seem particularly exottic or different from other wagons
16:57:24  <supermop> i guess one could take the 2nd or so gen wagons from pony to use as the "big" wagons
16:57:36  <andythenorth> antelope would be better
16:57:53  <supermop> yeah
16:58:01  <supermop> brb sushi time
16:58:04  <andythenorth> for antelope I’m mostly using South African, because there is info about that available easily
16:58:11  <andythenorth> even though it’s “wrong"
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17:23:59  <Alberth> nah, it's only wrong if you let it :)
17:40:22  <Samu> Alberth: it says you're a GUI expert
17:40:27  <Samu> openttd credits
17:44:27  <Samu> i have a request, i'd like a summary of all companies in 1 window
17:44:57  <Samu> something similar to console command "companies"
17:45:39  <Samu> but always refreshing, to keep it updated
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17:48:11  <Samu> yesterday I tried to put this info in the Company League Table, but can't even start
17:48:36  <Samu> i also don't know if that's the best place to display that info
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17:53:12  <Alberth> nice command, didn't know it existed :p
17:54:35  <Alberth> company league looks as good as any other window, I think
17:55:14  <glx> always refreshing is the easy part ;)
17:56:15  <glx> just dirtify the window in the game loop
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18:01:30  <Alberth> hola
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18:09:13  <frosch123> V453000: stop shooting your coworkers
18:09:47  <andythenorth> so how about ships that don’t have stopped / moving states (no wake sprites)? o_O
18:11:39  <V453000> hehe
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18:23:42  <Wolf01> bye
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18:25:04  <supermop> ended up getting udon instead
18:35:57  <supermop> idk why i wore sambas today feet are way too hot
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18:52:41  <andythenorth> supermop I’ll look at japanese wagons
18:53:15  <supermop> well, whats the first order of business? drawing, research, or making a spreadsheet?
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18:53:32  <supermop> i feel like we can use gut feeling in place of most of the research
18:54:37  <andythenorth> don’t need a spreadsheet, just general style per generation
18:55:11  <andythenorth> style is composed of: 2 axle / 4 axle; long / short; squat / tall
18:55:20  <V453000> ._.
18:55:34  <V453000> I just write down gameplay specifics
18:56:06  <andythenorth> why?
18:56:09  <andythenorth> :P
18:56:20  <V453000> "ok" :D
18:56:28  <andythenorth> 3 generations, 20 / 30 / 50 units cargo
18:56:33  <andythenorth> what’s to write down?
18:56:35  <andythenorth> :P
18:56:54  <V453000> ok if it's just wagons XD
18:58:05  <andythenorth> you are right, gameplay first
18:58:10  <andythenorth> I just did that bit already a few times
18:58:26  <supermop> 4 axle on bogies?
18:58:33  <V453000> did, and how did it turn out LO
18:58:34  <V453000> :P
18:58:54  <supermop> 3 axle for NG? i recall they had some of those
18:59:18  <andythenorth> I had to reset Horse wagons maybe twice
18:59:34  <andythenorth> fix speeds, stop pissing about with too many different capacities
18:59:35  <andythenorth> worked
18:59:46  <supermop> load speeds?
18:59:55  <andythenorth> some types have faster load speed
18:59:57  <andythenorth> it’s all automated
19:00:09  <andythenorth> some have cargo payment bonus
19:00:13  <andythenorth> again, automated
19:00:23  <supermop> i dont use the 3rd gen passenger cars as take too long to load
19:00:28  <andythenorth> interesting
19:00:31  <andythenorth> might be a bug
19:00:37  <andythenorth> I thought I fixed that?
19:00:39  <supermop> dont care if the passengers are uncomfortable
19:00:41  * andythenorth looks
19:00:45  <supermop> i think you did
19:01:10  <supermop> but i am spoiled by other sets and want my trains off the platform in 5 days or less
19:01:23  <andythenorth>
19:01:36  <andythenorth> meh, loading speed :P
19:02:35  <supermop> maybe these do load faster
19:02:50  <supermop> i only have one passenger train in this little at work game
19:03:02  <supermop> and it has a rake of 2nd gen stock
19:03:22  <supermop> may replace for a rake of slammers
19:05:33  <andythenorth> I think I’ll turn rivers off in my next game
19:05:42  <andythenorth> they’re such a gameplay non-event :)
19:05:55  <andythenorth> absolutely useless :)
19:06:05  <Alberth> I dropped those a while back already, too annoying :)
19:06:24  <supermop> have a bit of actually work designing to do this afternoon so minimal ottd
19:06:29  <Alberth> bad for ships however :)
19:06:33  <andythenorth> nah
19:06:44  <andythenorth> you never route a ship up a river, unless you have a flat map
19:06:50  <andythenorth> locks are too hard to build
19:06:52  <Alberth> true
19:06:58  <andythenorth> 3 tiles is stupid
19:07:11  <Alberth> lots of space required indeed
19:07:12  <andythenorth> and you can’t build them under bridges (I assume map has not enough bits)
19:07:25  <andythenorth> and river corners look ugly
19:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i think nobody actually bothered with bridges over locks
19:08:21  <Eddi|zuHause> should be no shortage of bits
19:08:59  <andythenorth> I start building locks on a river, I have to build so many canal parts to join them, there’s no river left :P
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19:16:39  <Wolf01> o/
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19:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, locks are terribly unwieldy
19:26:43  <andythenorth> state machine? o_O
19:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't want to bring it up :p
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20:19:18  <Samu> one day i will be back to locks, docks, rivers and all that :o
20:19:34  <Samu> wanted to continue he work i started a year ago
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20:23:09  <Samu_> a
20:23:28  <Samu_> €logs
20:23:31  <Samu_> @logs
20:23:32  <DorpsGek> Samu_:
20:23:54  <Samu_> weird errors i get
20:25:21  <Samu_> the ai debug window has a button that is also shared by the ai config window
20:26:53  <Samu_> can i reuse a string from another window into the window i am editing?
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20:27:39  <Samu_> I want the AI config window to toggle between STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE and STR_AI_DEBUG_SETTINGS
20:27:55  <Samu_> just the string
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20:30:48  <andythenorth>
20:32:26  <Wolf01> seen yesterday, really impressive
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20:37:47  <andythenorth> bed
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21:00:09  <Samu_> what's a template command?
21:02:15  <Samu_> why's that something apparently so simple to edit becomes so hard to do in code :(
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21:37:49  <Samu_> how do i create an empty string that isn't empty
21:37:58  <Samu_> erm... how to explain this
21:39:03  <Samu_> STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE                                            :{BLACK}Select {STRING}
21:39:30  <Samu_> the {STRING} part is replaced with
21:39:33  <Samu_> STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE_AI                                         :AI
21:39:42  <Samu_> or STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE_GAMESCRIPT                                 :Game Script
21:40:08  <Samu_> and it becomes either Select AI or Select Game Script
21:40:37  <Samu_> I want to create some other similar thing, for the Configure button
21:40:56  <Samu_> but I don't want {BLACK} Configure
21:41:06  <Samu_> I want {STRING}
21:41:19  <Samu_> then it writes in it either Configure or Select
21:41:30  <Samu_> but it is not accepting emtpy strings
21:43:39  <Samu_> it says STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE  : {STRING} is an empty string
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22:05:01  <Samu_> looks like i figured it out
22:13:38  <Samu_> bah i didn't
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22:18:44  <Samu_> how do i change the tooltip?
22:19:31  <Samu_> want to change the last STR_AI_CONFIG_CONFIGURE_TOOLTIP, to point to the right tooltip
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22:53:10  <Samu_> i can't change tooltip :(
22:54:26  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:10:05  <Samu_> what am i doing wrong
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23:12:22  <Samu_> String 0xB670 is invalid. You are probably using an old version of the .lng file
23:12:49  <Samu_> how do I fix the tooltip?
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