Log for #openttd on 26th April 2016:
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03:26:49  <supermop> yo Supercheese
03:27:40  <Supercheese> yo
03:36:42  <supermop> whats up out west?
03:49:08  <Supercheese> some Factorio modding, re-watching some Star Trek
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05:40:08  <V453000> @seen Rubidium
05:40:14  <V453000> !seen Rubidium
05:40:19  <V453000> ._.
05:40:25  <V453000> bot lazy?
05:41:03  <DorpsGek> V453000: Rubidium was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 13 hours, 19 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Rubidium> .cfg instead of .ini?
05:41:20  <V453000> mhm
05:50:41  <V453000> well, different problem today :D it actually wrote an error
05:51:12  <V453000> similar to but different and at different time
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07:25:25  <Wolf01> o/
07:28:41  <Wolf01> the math ph.d. one
08:07:02  <peter1138> text too small
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08:14:31  <Wolf01> you can click on the image to zoom
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08:20:44  <peter1138> yes but it's been scaled down badly
08:21:05  <Wolf01> :/
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09:56:10  <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm using a 19th century building style that hurts my head but I downloaded some NewGRF's to force it
09:56:24  <Ethereal_Whisper> why did I do this to myself
09:58:01  <Alkel_U3> well, that is suboptimal
09:59:25  <Wolf01> uhm, too many signals in wrong safe waiting areas
10:00:46  <Ethereal_Whisper> I'm copying this scenario's building style I was playing earlier just for the hell of it
10:00:53  <Ethereal_Whisper> I started in 1890 with a super slow old train set
10:01:03  <Ethereal_Whisper> My "goal" is to get everything up and running by 1925
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10:10:06  <Samu> helo
10:12:44  <Samu> [13:38] <Wolf01> you could use flags instead of variables, declare an enum and then use if (GB(SLOT_EDITABLE, flags)) or "flags, SLOT_EDITABLE" (I don't remember it now) or even IF (flags & (SLOT_EDITABLE | SLOT_VALID_AI))
10:12:57  <Samu> i'd like to do this one day
10:15:44  <Samu> i see flags would make things much easier, it's just that I rather have the code work correctly for now, before I venture further
10:17:45  <Samu> need to guide myself from the standpoint that my code works
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12:33:54  <Wolf01> when I'll understand how asynchronous things works it will be a good day
12:34:59  <V453000> shit A doesn't do that shit B does
12:35:01  <V453000> done? :D
12:35:02  <V453000> :P
12:35:22  <Wolf01> no, I didn't mean that
12:36:39  <Wolf01> so far I understood only how to not freeze the app while there is some long work to be done
12:37:39  <Wolf01> but I need something more: get stuff from shit B "while" it's doing it
12:38:28  <Wolf01> I tried with a list, but it seem that only returns values when it has finished to fill it
12:38:45  <Wolf01> maybe it's a wrong type of list
12:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> what's difficult to understand? do_job(); while(!is_it_done_yet()) do_other_stuff(); check_results();
12:41:24  <Wolf01> nah, I need to check results while !is_it_done_yet()
12:41:40  <peter1138> do so then
12:41:56  <Wolf01> I'm doing that
12:41:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yield partial_results;
12:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (warning: terrible mix of concepts)
12:42:43  <peter1138> heh
12:43:40  <Eddi|zuHause> just make the is_it_done_yet function return the partial results
12:44:01  <Wolf01> I have a global list variable, I expect that while B is adding stuff I could look in the list to see what's there
12:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> wait... asynchronous access to global variables? terrible idea.
12:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> need all kinds of locks and mutexes to handle non-atomic accesses
12:46:40  <Wolf01> I know, but since I'm only reading it... the only one writing is B()
12:46:57  <Wolf01> it's like a news ticker, I don't even know when it will finish
12:47:06  <Wolf01> it might even don't finish at all
12:47:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but reading from an inconsistent state while B is writing you must also prevent
12:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so B must block reading, so it can write
12:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> then allow reading when it's finished writing
12:49:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and while A is reading, B must be blocked from starting writing
12:51:12  <peter1138> well there are lock-free structures that work
12:52:50  <Wolf01> I don't think I can have an inconsistent data in the list, an item there is or there isn't, there can't be half an item
12:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what kind of item you have
12:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> items may be written byte-by-byte internally
12:53:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and when the number of items is updated for the list is also important
12:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> this must all be defined in your thread model
12:55:01  <Wolf01> since I await B's job to be done, an item can't be in an inconsistent state
12:55:27  <Wolf01> the problem is why between B() and B() there is nothing in the list?
12:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally contradicting your previous description
12:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (which may be part of your original problem of not understanding it)
12:57:10  <Wolf01> I expect that after the first call I have one item, but instead I get 2 items at the end
12:57:21  <Wolf01> like it's doing it synchronously
12:58:11  <Wolf01> this is simplified, I set up a task running for some seconds and adds an item every half second
12:58:38  <Wolf01> if I try to read the list I should find the items added so far... but no
12:59:11  <Wolf01> I can only get the items when all the task finish
12:59:36  <Wolf01> why does that if I'm calling B asynchronously?
13:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> could be all sorts of reasons
13:00:14  <Wolf01> and if the tasks are infinite, when I'm supposed to retrieve the data?
13:01:03  <peter1138> definitely sounds like you're doing it wrong
13:01:03  <Wolf01> in javascript looks so easy, just set up a recursive async call
13:03:02  <Wolf01> yes, I'm aware of that, but I don't figure out what I'm doing wrong
13:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: my guess is your other job writes to some internal buffer, instead of flushing it to the global variable
13:04:26  <Wolf01> it might be
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13:09:29  <Wolf01> uhm, it works, it seem it only was a timing problem
13:10:12  <Wolf01> waiting 5 seconds while doing 5 1-second tasks...
13:12:47  <Wolf01> clearly doing stuff with the interface and debugging stuff doesn't take the same time
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13:30:29  <supermop> yo
13:33:28  <Wolf01> o/
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13:42:21  <Wolf01> tea time
13:59:31  <supermop> cookie time
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14:06:27  <Birko> Hi everyone. Is it any function to found out if is one railstation reachable from another by builded railways? My AI player can build big railway infrastructure and now I would like to know, what orders I can set to my trains. Thanks
14:07:43  <Wolf01> mmmh cookies, good idea supermop
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14:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Birko: generally, the pathfinder does this
14:12:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Birko: not sure if it's accessible from the AI, or if there at least exists a library mimicing it
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14:17:42  <Birko> Eddi|zuHause: Good idea, library is "Pathfinder.Rail.1" and I use it for many things. So it could be works, but im afraid it is impossible to handle with it one-way (semaphore) railways...
14:18:15  <Eddi|zuHause> would be weird if it doesn't handle signals
14:18:45  <peter1138> a pathfinder should (be written to) cope with that
14:18:55  <peter1138> you'd just need to make sure that both directions are tested
14:21:38  <supermop> do AIs build networks now?
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14:24:07  <supermop> hmm idea for a GS: eminent domain GS. to entice you to service an underserved city, GS makes subsidy type announcement, then demolishes and buys 2 tile wide corridor of town buildings, then gives the owned land to player
14:24:49  <supermop> maybe builds replacement houses for displaced people
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14:25:30  <supermop> could also then claw back profits from that player in that town over next x years to pay for it?
14:26:58  <supermop> guessing it would be too complex for GS to build station and stump of track in a city then sell that to a player
14:28:43  <Birko> peter1138, Eddi|zuHause : I didnt know that I can handle more than find and build railway from array of tiles to another array of tiles with RailPathfinder. I study it only from this wiki . Where can I find more info about this RailPathfinder to handle and other things?
14:31:30  <Samu> I found another bug, related with the Parameters window not closing
14:32:04  <Samu> closing the window when selecting another script would fix many of these issues
14:33:35  <peter1138> Birko, sorry, no idea on specifics
14:34:33  <Samu> an open dropdown list remains open when i select another AI script for the same slot
14:34:50  <Samu> it lists the values of the previous script
14:36:05  <supermop> maybe this would be better as a AI that finds a town with disproportionate population:sevice level ratio, demolishes buildings, build a basic terminus in a city, or a through station based on some criteria, then intentionally bankrupts itself to get sold off?
14:45:11  <Samu> strange, it crashes on the debug, but not on the release
15:02:17  <supermop> watching videos of shinto weddings... think i may have bit off more than i can chew here
15:03:12  <supermop> even my in laws are going to be like "what the hell is going on" let alone my clueless family
15:08:44  <Samu> I don't understand. Why does it crash on the debug build, but not on the release build?
15:08:54  <Samu> I'm doing exactly the same thing
15:10:46  <Samu> weird, now it didn't crash on the debug build as well
15:10:48  <Samu> so it's random?
15:11:08  <Samu> i followed the same steps
15:13:29  <Samu> oh well, in the end it doesn't matter if it crashes randomly or not, it wasn't even supposed to linger the dropdown list from the previous AI into the new AI.
15:22:26  <Samu> aha, release also crashes after all
15:22:39  <Samu> just managed to crash 1.6.0
15:28:48  <Samu> question, should I report this bug? It's similar to the one I reported yesterday
15:29:17  <Samu> "Configure window didn't close." - this is the main problem
15:31:02  <Samu> instead of a scrollbar crashing openttd, it was a dropdown list from the previous script
15:31:18  <Samu> anyone?
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15:44:37  <Samu>
15:47:36  <Samu> @logs
15:47:36  <DorpsGek> Samu:
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15:53:31  <Samu> okay, now this image is also there
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16:02:51  <Wolf01> bbl
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16:32:12  <Samu> why can't I use bools inside a switch/case?
16:32:35  <Samu> i had to put them before the switch
16:32:59  <Alberth> start a new scope
16:33:20  <Alberth> case ... : { bool b = ... ; .... ;   break; }
16:33:33  <Alberth> b only exists between { and }
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16:39:54  <Samu> visual studio does not like that: initialization of 'is_orange_slot_above' is skipped by 'case' label	openttd	D:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ai\ai_gui.cpp	884
16:40:56  <Alberth> yes, you need curly brackets around variables in cases (also with normal labels, but you hardly use them)
16:41:33  <Alberth> or you must define them above the switch, so they exist for all switches, and beyond the switch statement
16:41:50  <Alberth> *exist for all cases, I means
16:41:54  <Alberth> *mean
16:41:56  <Samu> they have to exist for 2 cases only
16:42:07  <Samu> the other cases are arguing
16:42:28  <Samu> let me copy paste
16:42:32  <Alberth> it's either 1, with curly braces, or all, above the switch
16:43:26  <Samu>, have to exist for WID_AIC_MOVE_UP and WID_AIC_MOVE_DOWN
16:43:37  <Samu> the other cases don't matter
16:45:13  <Samu> so, all? like I had before
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16:45:24  <Samu> it will look ugly though
16:45:35  <Alberth> just the declaration is enough
16:46:03  <Alberth> bool is_orange_slot, is_red_slot,  ... ;
16:46:28  <Alberth> make sure you give them a value before you use the value though, or you get garbage
16:46:46  <Alberth> perhaps your compiler will compain about not being initialized
16:47:17  <Alberth> you can either give them the real value then (but ugly, perhaps), or a dummy value, like "true" or "false" or so
16:47:38  <Alberth> *complain
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16:55:55  <_dp_> I'd rather do a function, smth like is_red_or_orange(slot), vastly simplifies everything
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17:31:18  <Samu> ew... that invisible human player in slot 1 is annoying
17:32:04  <Samu> in the main menu, slot 1 is a human player that I want to disguise as not being there
17:34:05  <Samu> hmm i think i know how
17:34:08  <Samu> brb
17:40:05  <Samu> problem doesn't occur in scenario editor
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17:50:59  <Samu> IsValidID vs IsValidAiID
17:52:05  <Samu> IsValidID says it's true, there really is a company there in slot 1
17:52:17  <Samu> in main menu
17:52:56  <Samu> IsValidAiID says it's false, this fixed my issue
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18:08:06  <Alberth> hola
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18:09:53  <Wolf01> o/
18:10:21  <Alberth> o/
18:30:19  <Samu> Alberth: how would you fix that bug I reported?
18:31:56  <Samu> im trying to find a way to fix it
18:32:54  <Samu> AI/GS Debug vs AI/GS Config act differently when switching from a slot to another
18:33:13  <Samu> maybe they should behave equal
18:34:43  <Samu> Debug seems less prone to these issues
18:34:59  <Samu> but it's also a bit more restrictive
18:35:23  <frosch123> moin
18:36:45  <Wolf01> frosch, do you use at least the circuit network on factorio?
18:38:08  <frosch123> sometimes
18:38:19  <frosch123> but i always think i am doing something wrong if i need it
18:39:36  <Wolf01> I was trying to make a hysteresis circuit to enable the inserters only below a threshold
18:39:53  <V453000> frosch123: who could possibly help me with musa? :(
18:39:57  <V453000> also, hi :)
18:40:18  <Wolf01> I did it with 2 comparators and one combinator, too big :/
18:40:20  <frosch123> Wolf01: i think it is because i play f like ottd
18:40:34  <frosch123> when i have too little stuff, i need to build more rails
18:40:41  <frosch123> not add balancing stuff
18:41:25  <Wolf01> that could be an option, a good one, if you have enough steel :P
18:42:26  <Wolf01> actually I have 6 electric furnaces for steel, I'm planning to double them when I'll move the entire advanced production stuff out of the main base
18:42:34  <frosch123> V453000: at least i can confirm that the problem is not on your end
18:42:42  <frosch123> i can also not upload a new version of sv
18:42:51  <frosch123> TrueBrain: can you please restart musad, it's definitely borked
18:42:54  <V453000> that I understand, but who can I poke?
18:42:59  <V453000> :)
18:43:15  <frosch123> V453000: well, there was also the option that it is only borked for your large files
18:43:30  <frosch123> or that only yeti is borked
18:44:44  <V453000> point :)
18:45:40  <Samu> AI/GS Configuration does this: InvalidateWindowClassesData(WC_AI_SETTINGS);
18:45:48  <Samu> AI/GS Debug does this: DeleteWindowByClass(WC_AI_SETTINGS);
18:46:19  <Samu> debug window does not bug out
18:46:25  <Samu> so im gonna copy
18:46:26  <V453000> I got this error today
18:47:18  <frosch123> <- i got that one :p
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18:47:56  <V453000> lol a different one
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18:48:12  <frosch123> no, both just say "timeout"
18:48:21  <frosch123> i guess the cia serves are overloaded
18:48:25  <V453000> but Errno is different?
18:48:25  <frosch123> and cannot respond in time
18:48:30  <V453000> k :)
18:49:00  <Wolf01> frosch, do you think that a base which only processes iron and copper and outputs every kind of item possible for those 2 ores (steel, inserters, green circuits, gears...) is a good solution or it should only produce steel, gears, and circuits, and leave the next tier to another outpost?
18:49:08  <Alberth> Samu  examining it carefully, finding the point where it's wrong, and fix it?
18:50:09  <frosch123> Wolf01: in my previous game i started to include the furnaces into the mining outposts
18:50:17  <frosch123> and ship the refined metal by train, instead of the ore
18:50:39  <frosch123> i may also shift it to steel
18:50:40  <TrueBrain> frosch123: done
18:51:09  <Wolf01> I prefer to have a central smelting hub, mining outpost are like... not infinite
18:51:17  <frosch123> TrueBrain: works :)
18:51:22  <frosch123> V453000: now you can try
18:51:33  <Supercheese> you'd have to tear up your smelters along with the miners when the ore is depleted...
18:51:45  <Supercheese> best to have central smelting to avoid that IMO
18:51:46  <V453000> trying immediately
18:52:09  <V453000> uploading \o/
18:52:13  <V453000> let's hope it finishes
18:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can put down the smelters at the new mining site, i suppose?
18:52:21  <Wolf01> actually I have a large 40 electric furnaces hub just for iron, and 20 for copper
18:52:48  <V453000> regarding F: I love using steel furnaces on the mining field to make it output the final thing
18:52:53  <V453000> I build shit by blueprints anyway
18:53:22  <Wolf01> I use blueprints too, they are so useful :)
18:53:24  <V453000> you can fit the steel furnaces within the "extra range" of the miners to maintain 100% coverage
18:53:44  <Supercheese> steel smelters? Then you'd have to ship coal to every outpost...
18:54:15  <Wolf01> that's why I use full electric everywhere
18:54:19  <V453000> yeah Supercheese
18:54:22  <V453000> fun :)
18:54:29  <Supercheese> eh, to each their own
18:54:30  <V453000> I ship laser turrets etc anyway
18:54:44  <V453000> rest of the train can be coal
18:55:15  <Samu> my idea of a fix was .... "just close the parameters window", it's kinda like what debug also do
18:55:24  <Wolf01> I don't use anymore coal as fuel
18:56:05  <Samu> my other idea was .... more difficult for me to fix
18:56:17  <frosch123> <- Wolf01: usually i have some basic "all you need" production and the rest somewhere abroad
18:56:38  <Wolf01> my car runs on wood (just to use up that large stockpile I made clearing an entire forest) the rest uses solid fuel
18:56:45  <frosch123> oh, btw. i have no idea since when removed asembling plants leave that rubble on the floor :p
18:56:48  <Samu> which was keeping it open and re-supply it with the new variables
18:57:05  <V453000> omg just one facility to produce robots? :P
18:57:06  <frosch123> Wolf01: yes, i used wood for trains, but this time i got a pretty wood-free map
18:57:16  <frosch123> V453000: i hate robots
18:57:23  <frosch123> i only use logistics for player supply
18:57:25  <V453000> construction robots are nice
18:57:27  <V453000> yes me too
18:57:37  <frosch123> and i do not need more construction than i can wire up with belts
18:57:58  <frosch123> it's not like they are one-time use
18:58:01  <V453000> g
18:58:33  <Wolf01> how can you keep that production with just 3 green circuits factories?
18:58:47  <Wolf01> I have 16 of them and 6 for red ones
18:58:53  <V453000> uploaded :D
18:58:59  <frosch123> Wolf01: why "keep"?
18:58:59  <V453000> it says I am Sylf but idk where that came from
18:58:59  <Wolf01> \o/
18:59:03  <V453000> still, it's on bananas
18:59:07  <frosch123> all that stuff there is only for player supply
18:59:13  <frosch123> and construction robots
18:59:17  <frosch123> so, there is not much needed
18:59:34  <frosch123> the green circuits are only leftovers from the redcircuit production
18:59:46  <frosch123> the mass production is somewhere else
19:00:19  <Wolf01> mmh ok then, I have the research labs too, which are green/red/blue circuits hungry
19:00:21  <frosch123> Wolf01: oh, also, all chests you see have their size limited
19:00:53  <frosch123> i do not need 500 miners :p
19:01:02  <V453000> TrueBrain: thanks <3
19:02:29  <Wolf01> also, one thing I really hate, the raw stone patches are too small, I need to move too often to another place
19:03:13  <frosch123> Supercheese: yes, i ship coal to outposts
19:03:40  <frosch123> i always build mixed cargo trains with run on a circular line visiting many stops
19:03:47  <frosch123> some load coal, some unload coal
19:03:50  <V453000> yeah that stuff should be fixed in .13
19:04:20  <frosch123> also, rv almost take no damage anymore when bulldozing rocks
19:04:49  <frosch123> now you only have the small battle between the rock and the constructon robot
19:04:58  <Wolf01> rails, bricks, concrete, they use up a lot of stone and I feel like conquering the far west, laying one rail track like a snail :P
19:05:00  <frosch123> which cannot quite decide when it is done with repairing
19:05:23  <frosch123> Supercheese: and yes, electric smelters are as stupid as logistics robots
19:05:43  <Supercheese> unless you have massive solar, they are less efficient than steel smelters
19:05:49  <Supercheese> that much is true
19:06:12  <Wolf01> half of my map is covered with solar panels
19:06:27  <Supercheese> Well, then you can use electric smelters if you like ;)
19:06:35  <Wolf01> the other half is for batteries :P
19:07:03  <frosch123> Supercheese: last time i checked they were equivalent in power consumption
19:07:18  <Supercheese> frosch123: they are, but if you use steam engines boilers only have 50% efficiency
19:07:20  <frosch123> which i considered sad :)
19:07:37  <Wolf01> I still have the old steam engines power plants for backup purpose
19:07:51  <frosch123> hmm, is that written somewhere? maybe i missed that in my computation
19:08:16  <Supercheese> Coal -> elec -> elec smelter requires 2x as much coal as just Coal -> Steel smelter
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19:08:18  <frosch123> my main production always runs on steam
19:08:26  <frosch123> i only use solar panels in the offposts
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19:08:44  <frosch123> because solar panels are still nicer than long-distance electric wires
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19:09:30  <Wolf01> heh, you must consider the used space, a steam engine uses what, 3x5? and produces 350KW, while a solar panel is 3x3 and produces 60KW
19:09:49  <frosch123> space is not a concern in my games
19:10:01  <frosch123> as said, i play it like ottd :p
19:10:19  <Wolf01> but in ottd you don't have infinite maps :P
19:10:41  <frosch123> anything bigger than 512x512 is infinite
19:10:46  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should add that? :P
19:10:48  <Wolf01> here you just obliterate a spitters colony and lay down a 2400 solar panels farm
19:10:59  <Supercheese> You don't have infinite maps, just zomghueg maps
19:15:25  <Wolf01> V, do you know if it will be possible to make again mods for conveyor belts, like the separators which were really useful in 0.11?
19:15:33  <TrueBrain> V453000: have you tried turning it off and on again
19:15:36  <TrueBrain> it always works, I guess :D
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19:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> how dp infinite maps in factorio work? does it unload chunks that it thinks are inactive?
19:16:15  <V453000> :)
19:16:52  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it probably relies on noone putting a weight on the "a" key and go on vacation
19:17:09  <Supercheese> Factorio has active and inactive chunks
19:17:22  <Supercheese> you can even see them using the debug menu (F4)
19:19:37  <Wolf01> at least is not like Minecraft, one thing I hate about that is the inactive chunks don't grow things (trees, crops)... imagine it on factorio :P
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19:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that depends on how you determine which chunks should be active
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19:23:49  <Wolf01> another thing I don't understand is how the aliens expand
19:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow i just got the music from "peter and the wolf" as earworm...
19:24:27  <Wolf01> or better, the natives, since the player is the alien
19:24:29  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: who of them?
19:24:34  <frosch123> peter or wolf?
19:24:34  <Eddi|zuHause> something i haven't listened to in like 20 years
19:24:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's peter
19:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember how the wolf goes
19:25:21  <frosch123> oboe
19:25:28  <frosch123> or something like that
19:25:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean fagott?
19:25:39  <frosch123> hmm, no, it's some metal horn
19:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> oboe is very high pitched
19:25:59  <frosch123> but, it's a slow alarm bell essentially
19:26:19  <Samu> what's the difference between InvalidateData() and InvalidateData(-1)
19:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> like a clarinet
19:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> so, after listening to the intro, it seems: bird-flute, duck-oboe, cat-clarinet, grandpa-fagott, wolf-horn, peter-violin
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19:35:10  <frosch123> eddi-tuba
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19:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow i doubt prokofjew knew of my existence :p
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20:03:54  <V453000> hm, so a 32bpp train set having 70 000 wagon sprites isn't a good idea you say?
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20:08:52  <sim-al2> Might kill some older computers V :p
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20:10:11  <V453000> to be precise I am getting 62720
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20:10:35  <V453000> assuming 15kb per sprite, that comes up as 940 800 kb
20:10:42  <V453000> which is roughly 1GB
20:10:44  <V453000> :/
20:10:59  <V453000> I might have a solution to reduce it 8 times
20:11:45  <frosch123> only spherical cars? :p
20:12:06  <V453000> no, something else
20:12:19  <V453000> basically articulating some of the necessary variety
20:18:41  <frosch123> anyway, how much mb do you need in a real game?
20:18:52  <frosch123> like you do not have all cargos in one game, only 32
20:19:08  <frosch123> you may also not have all vehicles in all generations at a time
20:19:55  <frosch123> @calc 128*40*4
20:19:56  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 20480
20:20:34  <Wolf01> our nephews will ask "but the pc can run ottd?"
20:22:29  <V453000> frosch123: ?
20:22:42  <V453000> there is 67 cargoes I could count from various sets
20:22:48  <frosch123> V453000: ottd only loads sprites into memory which are actually used
20:22:48  <V453000> ofc not available all at the same time, but still?
20:22:53  <V453000> right
20:22:58  <V453000> still you have to download 1GB
20:23:17  <frosch123> isn't the compression better than that?
20:23:39  <V453000> fair point actually
20:24:54  <V453000> hm
20:25:03  <V453000> well it might help a lot
20:25:29  <V453000> oh nvm my test grf has only 2 engines out of many
20:25:50  <V453000> I was wondering that 8MB->312KB is a big difference XD
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20:27:27  <V453000> is there any way to estimate the compression amount?
20:28:14  <frosch123> do one test vehicle?
20:28:45  <V453000> 16 sprites are 312KB at the moment
20:28:55  <V453000> each individual PNG has 15KB
20:29:02  <frosch123> as a grf?
20:29:14  <V453000> 312=grf
20:29:30  <V453000> 15KB = 1 PNG before spritesheeting and stuff
20:30:03  <frosch123> 312kb seems to be a lot for 16 vehicle sprites
20:30:11  <frosch123> they are about 20kb uncompressed
20:30:21  <frosch123> so, it would mean basically no compression :p
20:30:25  <V453000> well I guess grf code is something?
20:30:41  <frosch123> problem with grf is that it compressed every sprite on its own
20:30:53  <V453000> right
20:30:54  <frosch123> compressing big things is better than many small things
20:31:04  <V453000> yeah of course
20:32:04  <Samu> time to post a new version, before I forget what I have done thus far
20:32:23  <V453000> I will try to get the articulation to work first
20:32:26  <V453000> let's see how that goes
20:32:31  <V453000> [probably poorly]
20:36:16  <V453000> actually
20:36:18  <V453000> it won't work at all
20:36:21  <V453000> ._.
20:36:30  <V453000> need to do some serious reconsiderations
20:36:53  <V453000> even if it saves 50% (which it won't), it's deep shit
20:37:47  <frosch123> how big is the grf, if you zip it?
20:38:00  <V453000> the 312kb one?
20:38:03  <frosch123> yes
20:38:17  <V453000> 278
20:38:39  <frosch123> then you sprites have a lot of randomness :p
20:39:14  <V453000> mhm :)
20:39:28  <frosch123> so, if zipping the whole thing does only save 10$, there is no point in improving the grf format or similar
20:39:33  <frosch123> *%
20:39:40  <V453000> I see your point
20:40:16  <V453000> well, I have wagons which have very specific functionality. I want to show that functionality in sprites, which means the x8 as there are 8 types of such functionalities
20:40:27  <frosch123> would you save sprites if ottd could draw multiple sprites per vehicle?
20:40:31  <V453000> my idea is to use articulated vehicles where 1 half is the functionality and 1 half is the actual wagon
20:40:35  <V453000> yes
20:40:43  <V453000> 8 times :)
20:40:52  <V453000> maybe even more due to cargoes
20:41:09  <frosch123> if it's not factor 50, it's not worth the effort :p
20:41:24  <V453000> well from 1GB to 120MB is a lot
20:41:48  <frosch123> 2 sprites per vehicle? or more?
20:42:06  <V453000> 2 would help insanely much
20:42:07  <frosch123> or vehicle + animation + cargo ?
20:42:11  <V453000> more would be just bonus
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20:43:18  <V453000> vehicle partA, vehicle partB, cargo in various loading stages, cargo in various graphics
20:44:26  <V453000> in general it would be AMAZING if wagons could consist of wagon + cargo
20:44:36  <V453000> would motivate so much to define more cargoes
20:44:50  <V453000> and any filesize save for 32bpp is heaven gift
20:45:02  <frosch123> also proper company colours :p
20:45:11  <frosch123> but cc are bad anyway
20:45:19  <frosch123> oh, and better rainbow slugs
20:45:32  <V453000> well yeah that would be an extra beautiful thing, but layered sprites would be just a whole new dimension
20:47:25  <V453000> is such a thing as vehicle layers within realm of possibility?
20:47:42  <V453000> I guess it worked for industries and stations eh :P
20:47:44  <frosch123> hardest is the drag-cursor :p
20:47:57  <frosch123> i.e. the one which does not even support articulated vehicles
20:47:58  <V453000> ha
20:48:02  <V453000> I see
20:48:11  <frosch123> currently you can only attach a single sprite to the mouse cursor
20:48:12  <V453000> can we define drag sprites?
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20:48:26  <V453000> we can define depot sprites
20:48:28  <V453000> I guess that works
20:48:30  <frosch123> nah, it should just draw the vehicle list sprite in aritculated
20:49:05  <V453000> list sprite = purchase menu sprite you mean? no
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20:49:42  <frosch123> no, i mean like the vehicle is displayed in the depot and or in vehicle lists
20:49:52  <frosch123> i.e. multiple sprites
20:50:20  <V453000> yes, so if you have a switch vehicle_is_in_depot, you can define drag-sprites basically?
20:51:05  <frosch123> <- do you mean that? or something else
20:51:15  <frosch123> i do not want to hack around the mouse cursor thing
20:51:21  <frosch123> it should be done properly anyway
20:51:50  <V453000> switch (FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, switch_monolocal_depotted, vehicle_is_in_depot){ 1 : switch_monolocal_stopped; //TL0.5 doesnt exist 0 : switch_monolocal_enginesprite; }
20:51:55  <V453000> I am not saying hack
20:52:03  <V453000> I am saying that it is solvable if someone defines a newgrf
20:52:11  <V453000> and wants to fix the dragging
20:52:25  <V453000> admittedly automatically dragging merged sprite would obviously be best :P but yeah
20:56:47  <V453000> I will have to go now, but let me just say tha this feature would be the most amazing thing I ever seen :P
20:57:27  <frosch123> it's likely easier than the mapgen preview
20:57:34  <frosch123> which is the other most-needed thing
20:57:44  <V453000> :0
20:58:43  <frosch123> but i need to ponder some days about the nfo magic
20:58:54  <V453000> :)
20:59:28  <V453000> I would greatly appreciate such a thing to happen
21:01:03  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: just check extra_callback_info1, not vehicle_is_in_depot
21:03:41  <Eddi|zuHause> 0x0? for anything drawn on the map, 0x1? for anything drawn in the gui, and 0x2? for anything drawn as preview (no vehicle vars available)
21:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause> (i use this quite a lot with all the curve magic, which should only be done on the map)
21:06:05  <Eddi|zuHause> (so special magic for depot dragging was quite easy to add)
21:06:18  <frosch123> really? is that variable older than cets?
21:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i wrote that
21:06:47  <frosch123> sometimes i forget how ancient some thing are :)=
21:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it's only been like 5(?) years :p
21:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing happened in the last 2 years anyway :p
21:08:41  <V453000> gnight
21:08:44  <V453000> layers! <3
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21:15:39  <_dp_> hm, just got a weird idea
21:16:01  <_dp_> make a server with real world map and only allow people to build in same region they are from (by ip)
21:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so i have a "19. Jul 2011  vehicle_gui_extra_callback_info.diff" but r23080 doesn't seem to be based on that patch
21:17:52  <Eddi|zuHause> @commit 23080
21:17:53  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by frosch :: r23080 /trunk/src (25 files in 2 dirs) (2011-11-01 17:51:47 +0100 )
21:17:54  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Feature: [NewGRF] Use variable 10 to enable vehicle GRFs to draw different sprites on the map and in various GUIs.
21:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you also didn't credit me for the idea :p
21:19:06  <frosch123> _dp_: well, most people live where lots of people are living
21:19:18  <frosch123> tracks better fit in places where noone is living
21:19:52  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i don't believe in "ideas" :)
21:20:17  <Eddi|zuHause> like 90% of the worlds population live on the coast or near rivers
21:20:19  <frosch123> except for the roujin foundations
21:22:32  <_dp_> frosch123, well, regions can be quite big, more like continents or so.
21:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: there is no such thing as a "continent" in openttd
21:23:25  <frosch123> _dp_: maybe try "timezones" then :p
21:23:38  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, doesn't mean it can't be defined ;)
21:23:39  <Eddi|zuHause> so, if it's not a rectangle, you're having a hard time
21:24:20  <_dp_> pff, hardest thing is to actually prevent someone from building somewhere
21:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> also, how do you decide where a person is "living"?
21:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause> geoip? how about proxies?
21:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and how about multiple people in the same company?
21:25:25  <supermop> V453000: what madness is this you are planning
21:25:32  <Eddi|zuHause> preventing building is trivial, so long as you're able to patch the executable
21:25:56  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, well, idea is to get people from different regions in one company))
21:25:58  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: since when is anything V453000 is planning NOT madness?
21:26:08  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, you're taking this too serious though :p
21:26:47  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: there's also GS magic to undo things a player did in the wrong place
21:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> may be less pretty
21:27:28  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, seen that magic, quite easy to fool :p
21:27:35  <supermop> composited sprites sounds particularly interesting madness
21:28:46  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, filtering incoming commands on server is still the most viable way
21:30:33  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: piping all incoming commands through the GS for validation is too problematic? or too inefficent?
21:31:22  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, why bother with gs for that?
21:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> more flexibility?
21:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> that could be included in the main game, instead of being some server-specific hack
21:33:04  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: competitive servers will always find something that does not fit the main game
21:33:05  <_dp_> filtering is a hack no matter how you do it :p
21:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i missed some context for this: some incompetent(?) politician(?) made some stupid(?) statement(?) about the eu referendum(?)
21:36:52  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did gb ever accept the european court?
21:37:16  <frosch123> i only remember them complaining that brittish cannot be wrong
21:37:33  <frosch123> you now, like us soldiers are incapable of comitting war crimes
21:38:10  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are multiple european courts. and generally the US have a problem with outside jurisdiction
21:40:48  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i believe i've heard of some british court cases going to european level, like the assange thing, and various stuff about the snwoden reveals about GCHQ
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21:54:50  <Samu> new version posted
21:55:10  <Samu> main topic needs some editing yet
21:56:00  <supermop> frosch123: any US soldier with a strong case against them who found himself abroad could well be arrested and tried, but seems the types who find them selves on the wrong side of international law are the types to stay out of countries that might do anything about it
21:57:05  <_dp_> first thing that needs flexibility is network command system imo
21:57:16  <_dp_> no point having "flexible" gs when it can't do shit
21:58:13  <supermop> the few people I knew from High school who fought in Iraq or Afghanistan, that was the only time they had ever visited a country that wasn't on very friendly terms with the US (such as GB)
21:59:02  <frosch123> haha, yesterday the news here was full of "us no longer wants to be bff with gb, if they leave eu" :)
22:00:10  <supermop> not that I am suggesting those particular guys committed any war crimes, just that most soldiers who would find themselves in ambiguous combat situations are not the type who book vacations to North Korea for fun
22:07:01  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: what kind of command system are you thinking of?
22:10:33  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, system itself is fine (command.cpp I mean), just needs more flexibility
22:11:19  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, right now command set is such that it basically supports only bare minimum of what is required by gameplay and nothing else
22:12:10  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, so even slightly changing to gameplay is virtually impossible
22:12:39  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: that stil leaves me with absolutely no clue what kind of change you're thinking about
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22:15:05  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, hah, well, from usage standpoint it's basically allowing gs to do more stuff))
22:15:20  *** kais58|AFK is now known as kais58_
22:15:38  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: but the command system is designed for the user doing stuff
22:15:58  <_dp_> for example clearing land (as deity), placing objects/buildings etc...
22:16:16  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yy, that's why server can't do anything
22:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: well, if you have a specific thing in mind, open a request. doesn't need a change to the "system" at all.
22:17:03  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: read the existing requests :p
22:17:14  <_dp_> system itself is fine, it just lacks functionality
22:17:39  <_dp_> also does it make sense to make patches just for commands, without gs interface?
22:18:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think a command will be accepted if there is no way to invoke it
22:18:07  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it all comes down to ottd running the gamestate on every client
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22:18:31  <frosch123> clients do not believe the server anything, but check what it sends them
22:18:57  <frosch123> so you cannot add new stuff in the server without preparing the clients for it
22:19:42  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so add a flag to server commands "this is a server command, execute it also if the client did not send it"?
22:19:55  <frosch123> like: you cannot allow a company to execute a command without sufficient funds
22:20:23  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you can answer every simple example with a simple answer
22:20:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
22:20:38  <frosch123> also you are assuming anyone except dp is interested in competive gaming
22:21:32  <_dp_> frosch123, well, there is also btpro and n-ice ;)
22:21:37  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno... the luukland stuff was fairly popular, i suppse
22:21:55  <frosch123> see, that's why i encourage forking ottd :)
22:22:07  <frosch123> you cannot fit all thoe completely different things into one game
22:22:31  <_dp_> forking is kind of splitting community
22:22:39  <frosch123> _dp_: and all three are neglible compared to the chinese, right?' :p
22:23:31  <_dp_> chinese are weird xD
22:23:52  <_dp_> actually, if you look on average stats they aren't that noticable
22:24:21  <supermop>  do all new players to the game use zbase?
22:24:32  <Eddi|zuHause> unlikely
22:24:36  <_dp_> like yeah, they play 150 at once but only once a week for 3 hours
22:25:16  <supermop> seems like whenever a new person appears in the fora asking about signalling etc, they have zbase
22:25:59  <Eddi|zuHause> you're having a sample bias there...
22:26:02  <supermop> and when they ask for grf suggestions, they then complain that the 8bpp grfs they have downloaded look bizarre to them
22:26:05  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: of course
22:26:59  <supermop> but i wonder if we are biased is hanging around the fora and this channel for 8+ years, we have no idea what the experience of someone just starting to play this game this year would be?
22:31:11  <supermop> and every time i play online, (which is maybe twice a year) i never find many servers using significant newgrf rosters - maybe a old wagons new cargoes at most
22:32:12  <supermop> are typical players unaware or even ambivalent towards new grfs, so server hosts set games accordingly?
22:34:47  <_dp_> well, I never add grfs to servers that target new players
22:34:56  <supermop> do these players just want different 32bpp base sets? do they just want simple 32bpp new grfs? how many people out there play the game at least casually but are never active on the forum?
22:36:08  <frosch123> how many people who download the game start it even once? :p
22:37:32  <_dp_> how many people can solve a riddle to connect to muliplayer? :p
22:38:24  <frosch123> night
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22:38:36  <supermop> what always bothered me was how much of a hassle it was for say my brother and i to just play a casual pick up game against each other if it turned out we both had a few free hours
22:39:30  <supermop> we never really figured out how to host a server,
22:39:56  <supermop> and depending on where he or I might be, we might not even be able to
22:42:01  <_dp_> hosting a server is pretty much same for every game so I won't blame openttd for that
22:42:25  <supermop> also the few people i converse with at any frequency about this game do not seem to be regularly playing multiplayer games as far as I can tell, so when ever I do play
22:42:40  <supermop> its on some ramdon empty server
22:42:44  <supermop> brb
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23:09:27  <Samu>
23:10:01  <Samu> :)
23:17:21  <Samu> I'm kind of happy for today
23:18:32  <Samu> managed to verify nearly every step of my bools to make sure they were working as they're intended to
23:19:46  <Samu> tomorrow I'll think about flags or bitmasks or whatever
23:20:41  <Samu> the table is ready
23:20:53  <Samu> i don't think i'm missing anything now
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