Log for #openttd on 3rd May 2016:
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05:01:14  <Flygon> Dangit
05:01:25  <Flygon> :D I wish I could increase the loan cap
05:01:26  <Flygon> I AM profitable
05:01:42  <Flygon> IRL, I would be able to convice a bank to give more money for expasion :D
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05:59:18  <Alkel_U3> Makes me miss the good old RRT 2 economy
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06:31:43  <Flygon> Hmm?
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06:38:26  <Alkel_U3> in railroad tycoon your company has a financial rating and you can issue bonds as long as the rating is at least B (but which hurts the rating), or issue more stock (which makes your stock a little more worthless).
06:38:56  <Flygon> Ooh
06:39:02  <Flygon> Yeah, that'd be a nice feature :D
06:39:08  <Alkel_U3> the series also separates player's money from the company's
06:40:17  * Flygon nod
06:40:25  <Flygon> (btw, this 4k*4k Hokkaido scenario is really good)
06:54:46  <peter1138> 4k*4k is never good
06:55:42  <V453000> this battle is unwinnable peter1138
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07:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i found the "economy" always the worst part of RRT
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09:06:17  <Leanden> andythenorth: planetmaker: are either of you on?
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09:31:50  <Leanden> anyone can help me with make?
09:31:58  <Leanden> make[1]: Nothing to be done for `BRTrains.grf'. make[1]: Nothing to be done for `docs/readme.txt'. make[1]: Nothing to be done for `docs/license.txt'. make[1]: Nothing to be done for `docs/changelog.txt'.
09:32:08  <Leanden> when i try to compile my GRF
09:32:26  <Wolf01> o/
09:34:04  <Leanden> o/
09:34:49  <V453000> there is nothing to be done about that Leanden
09:34:50  <V453000> :>
09:34:52  <V453000> hi
09:35:12  <Leanden> so how do i get my GRF to compile then :D
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09:37:49  <Leanden> Help me obi V453000 kenobi, you're my only hope
09:38:01  <V453000> your only hope has no clue
09:38:06  <V453000> [u r fuked]
09:38:23  <V453000> idk, I got many errors but not this
09:38:25  <V453000> oh make
09:38:29  <V453000> it's not just nmlc
09:38:31  <V453000> hmmmmmmm
09:39:03  <V453000> I'm sure andy or pm will help you there, just be patient :) andy will come proceed the search for cat sooner or later
09:39:33  <V453000> did you try to check how makefiles on the devzone work?
09:42:16  <Leanden> :)
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09:42:29  <Leanden> im using makefiles from the devzone
09:42:32  <Leanden> thats the annoying thing
09:42:51  <Leanden> I took one from SBB set and change the IDs to my set
09:43:07  <Leanden> put all my code etc. in the same file layout as that set and it still doesnt work :P
09:51:03  <V453000> yeah there is likely some wtf magic
09:51:31  <V453000> I personally never used makefile, someone did it for me, and locally I compile only with nmlc single-NML-file grfs
09:51:38  <V453000> NUTS has 60k lines of code in1 file, but eh :D
09:52:05  <Leanden> well if i could remember the gcc command to compile an nml file from pnml then i would do that :P
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09:56:33  <Samu> hi
09:57:42  <Samu> i dont understand my router
09:57:54  <Leanden> ahh found it
09:57:55  <Leanden> gcc -C -E -nostdinc -x c-header -o BTtrains.nml BTtrains.pnml
09:58:51  <Samu> im trying to configure port forwarding since yesterday night without success
10:00:28  <Samu> localhost: I put
10:00:47  <Samu> protocol: I am uncertain here, it asks many stuff
10:02:04  <Samu> protocol: I picked TCP, then  asks unique or interval
10:02:18  <Samu> origin, and destination
10:02:31  <Samu> how do i set up here?
10:02:38  <Leanden> what is the port forwarding for?
10:02:42  <Leanden> what is the purpose of it?
10:03:01  <Samu> I think its 3979
10:03:28  <Samu> host a openttd sserver, from 3979 to 3987
10:03:35  <Samu> 1 server on each port
10:04:43  <Samu> then i do the same for UDP
10:04:54  <Samu> and after that, there's one more thing to configure
10:05:10  <Samu> forward to port
10:05:31  <Samu> same as origin port
10:05:38  <Samu> or user defined
10:06:39  <peter1138> rtfm
10:07:02  <Samu> this is just for the router
10:07:06  <peter1138> yes
10:07:10  <Samu> then there's windows firewall which is another headache
10:07:21  <peter1138> windows firewall is easy
10:08:16  <Samu> i don't think so, it's quite dumb sometimes
10:13:34  <Samu> DMZ Host
10:13:49  <Samu> still says "we are not receiving acknowledge from master server"
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10:20:48  <Samu_> nope, still fails
10:20:57  <Samu_> i bet it's windows firewall now
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10:24:14  <Samu_>
10:24:17  <Samu_> there it is
10:24:29  <Samu_> it was windows firewall being stuborn
10:24:45  <Samu_> but now i got this on DMZ host, i dont want DMZ host, brb
10:27:17  <Samu_> crap, i hate this
10:27:23  <Samu_> no longer working without dmz host
10:29:38  <Samu_> i hate these new routers with their super extra secure features that require a networking degree just to port forward
10:29:51  <Samu_> old routers were so much easier
10:32:57  <Samu_> this is not an internet cafe, omg windows firewall really sucks
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10:48:22  <Samu> i cannot advertise to master server
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10:49:54  <Samu> Source Ports: Destination Ports:
10:50:00  <Samu> what are source ports?
10:50:28  <Samu> isn't it just 3979, why ask source or dest
11:06:16  <Xaroth|Work> It means you can open up one port, but point it to another internally
11:06:31  <Xaroth|Work> and really, it has been available on routers since the olden days
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11:23:29  <Samu> 1) Local Host:, 2) Protocol: TCP: source ports: any range, destination ports: any range, 3) Forward to Port: Same as incoming port.
11:24:07  <Samu> if i change any range to 3979, it won't work
11:24:13  <Samu> why?
11:27:56  <Samu> TCP and UDP both set with any range
11:28:04  <planetmaker> @ports
11:28:04  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
11:28:53  <Samu> oh, 3978
11:29:08  <Samu> brb
11:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i somehow don't think any of these answered the question
11:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i think the answer would have helped anyway :p
11:45:17  <V453000> I don't know why nobody banned Samu yet
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11:48:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i like to distinguish people between "unknowing" (they don't know something, and if you tell them, they know) and stupid (they don't know something, and if you tell them, they still don't know)
11:49:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i've only met very few stupid people, but the ones that stick around are really really annoying
11:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> because they drain community ressources without the chance of a long term benefit
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11:56:42  <Wolf01> I feel offended :(
11:57:24  <V453000> I actually managed to ban a couple of these people on our server Eddi|zuHause
11:57:39  <V453000> just for the sake of staying sane
12:01:52  <Ketsuban> I recall having a similar conversation with someone about how there are newbies (those who do not yet know the norms of a community, and will learn) and noobs (those who have no interest in ever learning community norms and will just irritate people forever).
12:02:38  <Wolf01> those are trolls, not noobs
12:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, those words are not right
12:05:46  <V453000> sense is similar
12:07:02  <Eddi|zuHause> "noob" is too often used as a derogatory term by arrogant people for the above definition to apply
12:07:25  <Ketsuban> The distinction between "noob" and "troll" was one of intention.
12:07:36  <Ketsuban> Trolls set out to annoy people; noobs just do because they're oblivious.
12:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause> a person who uses the word "noob" is likely to be one himself
12:09:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (well, technically that applies to "stupid" as well)
12:11:37  <V453000> I think that statement applies purely based on how do you define that word Eddi, if you imagine it is said by a person who is arrogant and calling others lesser, OR if you see it as objective definition of a hopeless troll-ish person who will never learn because they don't want to
12:12:50  <Wolf01> it's the same as what happened to "hacker", the word doesn't have a bad meaning but people started to use it to define the guys who do bad actions with IT stuff
12:13:21  <Wolf01> mainly because journalists didn't know (and still don't) the right terms
12:13:33  <Eddi|zuHause> they performed a study on people who use "bad language" in LoL games, and compared their performance within the team, and usually the weakest person in the team used the "bad language"
12:14:21  <V453000> well yeah that's a fair point
12:14:36  <V453000> I'm not saying arrogant people calling stuff aren't that
12:14:50  <V453000> but if we are trying to objectively define what the word means, it shouldn't make us them :P
12:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but i still question whether the term "noob" ever objectively meant the above thing
12:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> (before it slipped in the other usage)
12:17:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit like people nowadays justifying racial slurs by citing "but it originally meant <objective definition>"
12:17:42  <Wolf01> noob, as n00b, started when the l33t-speakers were too lazy to write newbie
12:18:17  <Eddi|zuHause> even if that definition once was true, it isn't anymore, and thus the usage is invalidated
12:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that was probably around the same time that 1337 degraded into a kiddie-language
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12:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (which again reinforces the point that "noob" is only used by people who are themselves "noob" [by above "original" definition])
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12:20:48  <V453000> OMG CAT
12:20:53  <V453000> and andy missed it
12:21:03  <V453000> no it rejoined
12:21:04  <V453000> good
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12:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause> we've had a conductorcat for quite a while now
12:23:59  <ConductorCat> :3
12:24:24  <V453000> guess andy just didn't find out yet
12:25:54  <Wolf01> meh... I can't understand how to handle exceptions in async code :|
12:26:57  <Wolf01> specially with parallel threads
12:26:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you generally need to handle them in the thread that raised them
12:27:37  <Wolf01> I know, but or the entire thread exits, or the thread become synchronous
12:28:02  <Wolf01> I need to skip the threads which threw exception
12:28:14  <Wolf01> keeping the whole thing asynchronous
12:28:24  <Wolf01> or the UI will hang
12:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know enough about your architecture to help you here
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12:33:45  <Wolf01> I'm doing something like this, but instead of having a synchronous "Main()", I have an asynchronous event attached to the UI, and the "wait" breaks the asynchronous workflow
12:38:55  <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:42:17  <Samu> finally I managed to configure it! ->
12:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "wait()" will obviously pause the thread that called it
12:49:57  <Samu> sorry for bothering you all, this router is much more complex than what I had before
12:49:58  <Wolf01> yes, I should "await continuation;"
12:50:42  <Wolf01> and since my "continuation" provides a result, I have "var result = await continuation;"
12:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure about the semantics of that
12:51:04  <Wolf01> but now, it seem to be broken
12:51:55  <Wolf01> do you know the promises?
12:51:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you rather need a "if (continuation.finished) { do stuff with result } else { do nothing and try again later }"
12:53:15  <Wolf01> that's why they used synchronous code, "await" already does that without the need of doing the check
12:54:32  <Wolf01> it puts everything which follows the "await..." into a callback (at compiler time) and only runs it when the task has finished
12:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> but "await" will still pause the thread it appears in
12:57:36  <Wolf01> no, it exits and continues the execution
12:57:57  <Wolf01> then when the task finishes, it executes the rest of the code
12:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, it exits to the calling function
12:58:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't sound like you can return a result
12:59:20  <Wolf01> it returns a task
12:59:33  <Wolf01> which has your result if it's completed
12:59:48  <Wolf01> in this case, since I "await" it, it's completed
12:59:58  <Wolf01> and I can use the result in the promise
13:00:23  <Wolf01> if you try to do that in a synchronous code, you will hang up everything :P
13:00:57  <Wolf01> maybe forever, not just for the execution of the task (which might not complete succesfully)
13:02:01  <Eddi|zuHause> then i still don't know enough about what you're doing
13:02:21  <Wolf01> me too, I'm just studying it :P
13:02:40  <Wolf01> but I've done some asynchronous programming in javascript
13:11:34  <Samu> the complexitude of this router: 1 cable, 2 ethernets, 2 wireless access points, 2 bridges (WAN and LAN), 1 ethernet switch
13:13:04  <supermop> yo
13:13:29  <Samu> hi
13:14:40  <Samu> my isp forces 2 ethernets with this router and with just 1 cable,
13:14:46  <Samu> amazing
13:15:47  <Samu> so it behaves as a free wifi spot
13:15:54  <Samu> okay i got it
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13:25:12  <Wolf01> looks like I made it, the exception handling inside the task factory delegate
13:35:49  <peter1138> on error resume next
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13:37:17  <Wolf01> that was vb6 :D
13:37:37  <Wolf01> spaghetti code exception handling
13:40:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "goto" :p
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13:43:36  <Wolf01> the very basic one it was like "on error goto label" ... code... "end function... label: msgbox("error, you stupid"): resume next"
13:46:50  <Wolf01> Ok, I learned something new, now it's factorio time
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14:15:56  <Alberth> moin
14:16:07  <Wolf01> o/
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14:34:58  <Alberth> hoi
14:35:05  <frosch123> moi
14:40:10  <Wolf01> mmmh, I built a train, set all the orders and stuff... built it on the wrong rail, I had to build a wye to turn it :|
14:43:41  <frosch123> that's unrealistic, post a "crane truck" suggestion on the forums
14:43:51  <peter1138> shunting!
14:57:01  <Samu> #opcodes before scripts are suspended= 250.000
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15:04:47  <Wolf01> V453000, the train pathfinding doesn't like loops
15:07:58  <V453000> doesn't it?
15:07:59  <V453000> why?
15:08:10  <Wolf01> I don't know
15:08:37  <Wolf01> if I drive the train manually the track is right, even the signals
15:10:18  <Samu> dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer - what is this?
15:10:43  <Wolf01> the nice thing is that it says "no path" even just outside the station
15:10:58  <Wolf01> other trains don't have any problem
15:11:01  <peter1138> it means the string was too long for the destination buffer
15:11:11  <Wolf01> but this is the only one single-headed
15:12:47  <Wolf01> meh... found the culprit, an old signal hidden by a tree in the next tile of the other signal... I can't wait for the 0.13
15:13:45  <Wolf01> instead of having 2-way I had 2-one way :|
15:14:08  <Samu> - i'm being bombared with that message
15:14:13  <Samu> not sure what it is
15:17:58  <Alberth> debug messages
15:18:19  <Alberth> don't compile with debug flags if you don't want them
15:19:02  <Samu> it's 1.6.0, i didn't compile it, i downloaded from
15:22:38  <Samu> debuglevel misc=0, still says it
15:31:24  <_dp_> oh, mb I know what it is, in multiplayer lobby server_name + "(ipv6)" gives it sometimes
15:34:42  <Samu> the string is: fffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff
15:35:06  <Samu> ehm... is this an ipv6 address?
15:36:27  <Wolf01> looks like a gust of wind
15:38:50  <Samu> trying to follow back where it originates
15:39:00  <Samu> it's from OWNER_DEITY
15:39:07  <Samu> trying to do a command
15:40:28  <Samu> NetworkSendCommand
15:40:44  <Samu> strecpy(c.text, (text != NULL) ? text : "", lastof(c.text));
15:41:04  <Samu> this is what triggers that message
15:41:51  <Samu> c.text = 1:83:84:15:1:0:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:ffffffffffffffff:fffffffffffffff
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15:42:14  <Samu> so, well, no idea what this means, but that's where it originates
15:43:07  <Samu> it's dealing wit tile 0
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15:50:06  <Samu> cmd = 88 which is CMD_UPDATE_STORY_PAGE_ELEMENT
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16:11:18  <Wolf01> bbl
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16:41:28  <Samu> why do ppl create servers that are impossible to join in 30 seconds...
16:45:35  <Samu> rats
16:45:52  <Samu> i joined my server and it made the server crash
16:47:15  <Samu> no crash log
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16:56:29  <Samu> event viewer says faulty module ntdll.dll
16:56:36  <Samu> process openttd.exe
16:57:02  <Samu> c0000005
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17:12:12  <andythenorth> o/
17:14:36  <Samu> i managed to reproduce the crash with visual studio open
17:14:39  <Samu> Unhandled exception at 0x00007FFA8D2E0B06 (ntdll.dll) in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation writing location 0x00000080CAC1FFF8.
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17:15:03  <Samu> it says ntdll.exe is external code, can't view stack frame things
17:15:13  <Samu> oops ntdll.dll
17:18:34  <Alberth> o/
17:19:15  <Samu> ntdll.pdb - Source Not Available
17:19:20  <Samu> what now? :(
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17:23:01  <Alberth> it looks like the nt file system thingie, which of course has no source code
17:24:10  <andythenorth> the xkcd for ‘yak shaving’ isn’t quite what I’m looking for :P
17:24:22  <andythenorth> I wanted a cartoon for “starting a new game of ottd"
17:24:43  <andythenorth>
17:31:10  <Samu> >	ntdll.dll!RtlpLowFragHeapFree()	Unknown
17:31:18  <Samu> this is where it crashes
17:31:57  <frosch123> when a truck crashes into your house, your house is not the problem
17:32:23  <frosch123> rather look where the truck came from
17:33:58  <glx> ntdll is a windows library
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17:35:00  <Samu> if (!HeapFree(select_heap(block), 0, block))
17:35:13  <Samu> this is whhere it would return
17:35:16  <glx> you can't do anything about it
17:35:38  <Samu> didn't return, just crashed on the ntdll.dll
17:36:26  <Samu> free_base.cpp, line 100
17:37:45  <andythenorth> is this rhymme known?
17:43:19  <Alkel_U3> I recall seeing something similar in czech
17:44:44  * andythenorth swallows a horse
17:45:15  <andythenorth> to start my openttd game, I need to (1) patch FIRS (done), (2) patch CHIPS, (3) patch OpenTTD :P
17:45:34  <frosch123> there is an incredible boring but somehow popular book about a snake swallowing an elephant
17:46:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: that is all fine as long as you do not have to patch patch
17:46:24  <andythenorth> sometimes it also involves rebuilding all the deps in my OS :P
17:46:28  <andythenorth> although that is less common
17:54:45  <andythenorth> this just so I can play a test game on Iron Horse Antelope, which will result in more work
17:54:46  <andythenorth> :P
17:55:35  <andythenorth> amused irony probably fails to come across well in irc
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17:56:22  <frosch123> try on forums instead? :p
17:57:22  <andythenorth> ha ha
17:57:56  <andythenorth> unrelated, can we declare OpenTTD 2.0, and break a load of backwards compatibility?
17:58:05  <andythenorth> there’s no good reason, but it might be fun
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18:00:46  <Wolf01> o/
18:00:47  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
18:00:57  <frosch123> wait 4 years for it
18:01:06  <Wolf01> "kitten hungry is the free app for today"
18:01:09  <frosch123> i like the easy method to derive the release date from the version
18:01:32  <andythenorth> we could give releases subtitles
18:01:38  <andythenorth> “breaks everything edition”
18:02:00  <andythenorth> “spurious new features edition"
18:02:13  <andythenorth> “all climates are now toyland edition”
18:02:15  <Wolf01> !logs
18:02:29  <Wolf01> was @?
18:05:16  <Samu> glx: how do i create a dump when msvc breaks on some error?
18:05:17  <andythenorth>
18:06:19  <Wolf01> :)
18:06:27  <Samu> or, how do i upload this crash
18:06:37  <Samu> because openttd doesn't create the crash files
18:08:22  <Wolf01>
18:08:26  <Wolf01> nice
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18:19:52  * andythenorth looks for Tropic landscape patch
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18:37:30  <Wolf01> meh, biters nest in starting area :|
18:44:55  <andythenorth> is biters a newgrf? o_O
18:46:00  <Alkel_U3> biters in NUTS as a new engine class? :-)
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18:47:05  <glx> Samu: this crash is not in openttd
18:48:23  * andythenorth transports nuts
18:48:27  <andythenorth> because Busy Bee said so
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19:13:49  <Samu> openttd is trying to delete something from memory but then ntdll crashes with access violation and points to RtlpLowFragHeapFree()
19:13:51  <Samu> being the function that errors
19:14:21  <Samu> it seems to be some AI that causes the error
19:15:49  <Samu> some AI is working with massive numbers of arrays
19:16:10  <Samu> dont know what's that, but it's repeatedly creating, deleting, creating, deleteing
19:16:18  <Samu> one of them triggered a crash
19:16:31  <Samu> triggered on delete
19:17:49  <Samu> i have no idea which AI is doing this, I loaded 15 AIs + GS
19:18:49  <Samu> they append stuff to network commands?
19:19:01  <Samu> bah i better give up
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19:26:27  <Samu> it crashed again, now the error was triggered from somewhere else
19:30:34  <Samu> i was joining the server with a client
19:30:43  <Samu> openttd was executing a loop
19:30:45  <Samu> void WriteLoop(byte *p, size_t len, lzma_action action)
19:31:21  <Samu> lzma code sent something about freeing memory to ntdll.dll and ntdll.dll crashed
19:31:38  <Samu> symptoms are a bit similar, access violation
19:31:44  <Samu> writing memory
19:35:40  <Samu> >	ntdll.dll!RtlpHeapTrkInterceptor()	Unknown
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19:45:13  <Samu> isn't lzma code open? why can't i access it? :\
19:48:35  <Wolf01> aren't you serious, you are?
19:49:27  <Samu> intellisense
19:49:40  <Samu> didn't let me explore inside lzma
19:49:56  <Wolf01> there is a little difference between source code and compiled library
19:53:59  <Samu> openttd writeloop > lzma optimized encode fast > ntdll rtlheaptrkinterceptor -> crashes here
19:55:25  <Samu> memory management issues, i guess
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23:41:17  <Wolf01> 'night
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