Log for #openttd on 21st May 2016:
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09:03:54  <Alberth> moin
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09:09:33  <andythenorth> o/
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09:36:48  <openbu|2> Hi
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09:41:09  <frosch123> hoi mammals
09:42:33  <frosch123> sometimes you learn about your mail group memberships only when someone sends spam to them :p
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09:47:04  <Alberth> :)
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10:43:26  <andythenorth> so I have unexpected 24 hours with nothing I have to do
10:43:35  <andythenorth> NotRoadTypes? o_O
10:48:36  <Alberth> is an option, make new bus stops possible :p
10:48:43  <Alberth> bbl
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10:50:38  <argoneus> good morning train friends
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14:59:46  <Samu> Wormnest: is WormAI your AI'
15:00:08  <Wormnest> Samu: yes
15:00:48  <Samu> ah, nice. what does this setting change?
15:00:56  <Samu> How fast this AI will think
15:01:14  <Samu> fast = better paths, worst paths?
15:01:25  <Samu> want to set it to be super rich
15:02:04  <Samu> to be ultra competitive
15:02:31  <Alberth> give it all your money!
15:03:08  <Samu> I'm piting WormAI with NoCAB and maybe a 3rd one, which have yet to decid
15:03:29  <Samu> trAIns again, not sure
15:03:31  <Alberth> samu as 3rd one ?
15:03:38  <Wormnest> ItÂŽs mostly how long it waits between trying to build something new
15:04:01  <Samu> ah, then fast it is
15:04:29  <Wormnest> But I also try to make it into similar like difficulty, thus slow=easy, fast=difficult
15:05:20  <Wormnest> yea fast is best for most competitive
15:05:35  <Samu> maybe I'm trying SimpleAI, instead of trAIns
15:06:20  <Wormnest> SimpleAI is where I based my trains part off, so maybe better to choose another one
15:06:29  <Samu> ah, ok ok
15:06:51  <Wormnest> Although I have made changes to make it different and more changes to come
15:07:19  <Wormnest> Terron is usually doing pretty well
15:09:58  <Samu> ok, i got Terron setup
15:12:34  <Samu> generating map
15:12:56  <Samu> 5 AIs, this will be slow
15:15:09  <Samu> NoCAB eating ram like nothing
15:15:47  <Alberth> luckily you get it back after use
15:16:52  <Samu> oh right, Terron is also a ram eater
15:17:18  <Wormnest> How can you tell which is using a lot of ram
15:17:31  <Samu> i used to test them solo
15:18:42  <Wormnest> ah ok
15:19:41  <Wormnest> IÂŽm testing 14 atm itÂŽslow but IÂŽm not in a hurry
15:21:41  <Samu>
15:24:32  <Wormnest> At least I have a more reasonable mapsize lol. I use 512x512 and donÂŽt use a server.
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15:26:16  <Samu> i'd like to test 15 AIs, but it ends up crashing OpenTTD at some point
15:26:30  <Samu> oh, just crashed
15:26:38  <Samu> with only 5
15:27:22  <Samu> crashes out of nowhere
15:28:44  <Wormnest> Maybe it runs out of memory with that map size
15:28:57  <Samu> there is no crash report, I don't know what to do when there's no log
15:29:46  <Alberth> maybe it ran out of memory
15:30:08  <Alberth> making a crash reports also takes memory, which is hard if you don't have any left
15:30:12  <Samu> but how? I'm running 64-bit OpenTTD
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15:31:26  <Samu> windows event log: Código de exceção: 0xc0000005
15:31:55  <Alberth> yeah, whoever invented translations of system errors should be shot
15:32:51  <Alberth> but the internet can tell you what error it is
15:34:14  <Samu> we have a dump... C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER568.tmp.dmp, probably i can't access it anyway
15:34:58  <Wormnest> ItÂŽs most likely in a format you canÂŽt read yourself
15:35:37  <Samu> i navigate to that folder, and the folder is emtpy
15:35:50  <Samu> windows likes to hide system stuff
15:40:59  <Samu> google says: access violation (0xc0000005)
15:45:02  <Samu> testing again, but now with visual studio launching it
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16:07:32  <Samu> yeah nocab started finally
16:08:02  <Samu> buy 75 hovercrafts
16:08:06  <Samu> keks, that's unusual
16:09:15  <Samu> i wonder why it isn't crashing now
16:09:25  <Samu> did you try to join the game the other time?
16:10:06  <Samu> there's a few times the server crashes when someone joins
16:11:50  <Samu> oh wow... it crashed now, visual studio is saying something
16:11:57  <Samu> why did I speak
16:12:14  <Samu> Exception thrown at 0x00007FF6A706DC5A in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005:
16:12:21  <Samu> Exception thrown at 0x00007FF6A706DC5A in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation writing location 0x000000AF132DFFF8.
16:12:45  <Samu> matches what google said
16:25:16  <Samu> what's a minidump with heap?
16:28:08  <Samu> error saving dump. Invalid pointer.
16:31:27  <Samu> oh wow, a 4.59 GB dump file :) do you want it?
16:31:48  <Alberth> nah, stack trace at most
16:32:07  <Alberth> if it provides anything useful
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16:33:19  <Samu> i got 2 save dump options, minidump, a 1 MB file, and minidump with heap, 4.59 GB
16:33:44  <Alberth> I have no idea what that means
16:34:03  <Samu> dumping with visual studio
16:34:12  <Alberth> but I believe it crashed
16:34:28  <Alberth> stacktrace of what it was doing might be useful
16:35:07  <Alberth> at least if you run a non-modified version
16:36:04  <Samu> call stack?
16:36:15  <Alberth> something like that yeah
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16:36:35  <Alberth> about 20-50 lines of "I was in this function at this line"
16:37:55  <Samu>
16:38:25  <Samu> uhm, page isn't opening :8
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16:38:51  <Alberth> how much text is it?
16:39:21  <Samu>
16:40:04  <Samu> a lot, sorry
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16:40:27  <Alberth> The maximum number of stack frames supported by Visual Studio has been exceeded.   <-- haha :)
16:40:47  <Alberth> but it looks like a crash in squirrel
16:41:20  <Alberth> the call stack is not complete
16:41:41  <Alberth> lots of recursive calls aren't interesting
16:42:11  <Alberth> you might have run out of stack space
16:42:28  <Samu> me? probably one of the AIs
16:42:55  <Alberth> feasible too
16:43:22  <Alberth> it looks like the garbage collector though
16:43:44  <Alberth> which suggests it may be the squirrel engine itself
16:44:45  <Samu> I will try again, see if it comes out with a similar error
16:45:05  <Alberth> you haven't seen the error itself
16:45:14  <Alberth> this was just a part of the path to it
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16:50:59  <Samu> [17:35] <@Alberth> at least if you run a non-modified version - oops
16:51:24  <Samu> im running my "patch" AI gui thing on top of it
16:55:50  <Samu> I expect NoCAB is the culprit
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16:56:16  <Samu> the first time it crashed it was right after NoCAB had made it's first route
16:56:25  <Samu> the 2nd time, the same
16:56:33  <Samu> but i'm also running 4 other AIs
16:56:51  <Samu> next time after this one, I will test NoCAB solo
16:58:00  <Samu> oh, and I will test without my gui stuff, too
16:58:59  <Alberth> stack trace seems not related to gui, but leaving own changes out is a good way to make sure
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16:59:35  <andythenorth> supermop: o/
17:03:07  <Samu> crash!
17:04:18  <Samu> NoCAB made ships, and shortly after OpenTTD crashes again
17:05:15  <Samu> the error is not the same
17:05:20  <Samu> Unhandled exception thrown: write access violation. o._unVal.pTable-> was 0xECCBA1FFC8. If there is a handler for this exception, the program may be safely continued.
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17:05:58  <Samu> only 1 line in call stack
17:05:59  <Samu> >	openttd.exe!SQSharedState::MarkObject(SQObjectPtr & o, SQCollectable * * chain) Line 235	C++
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17:07:43  <Samu> there's a nice comment in line 243 there
17:07:45  <Samu> 	default: break; //shutup compiler
17:07:48  <Samu> keks
17:09:44  <Alberth> that doesn't write anything :p
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17:12:53  <Samu> testing NoCAB solo now
17:13:41  <Samu> reverted to trunk version r27569M
17:13:51  <Samu> i can't totally revert one file
17:13:58  <Samu> the vcxproj thing
17:14:15  <Samu> that's the only modification
17:16:27  <michi_cc> From the callstack I'd say that there's an squirrel array that contains itself. No idea though if this is caused by OTTD or a bug in NoCAB.
17:18:07  <Samu> - if i don't setup those files, i can't even launch openttd with visual studio
17:19:03  <Samu> oh, and dpi awareness, because... reasons
17:19:28  <Samu> forgot that's also included in that file
17:21:22  <Samu> <ClInclude Include="..\src\saveload\game_sl.h" /> - i have no idea what the hell is that
17:21:34  <Samu> there is no such file
17:21:39  <Samu> just searched for it
17:23:18  <Samu> oh:( there is, but it's totally emtpy, it must have been when i was testing stuff with visual studio, grr
17:24:19  <glx> openttd essential stuff must go to user file, not main project file
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17:28:04  <Samu> crash!
17:28:17  <Samu> Exception thrown: write access violation. o._unVal.pTable-> was 0x795BC4FFE8. If there is a handler for this exception, the program may be safely continued.
17:29:07  <Samu>
17:30:00  <Samu> gonna try providing screenshot
17:31:05  <glx> looks like an infinite loop
17:31:12  <Samu>
17:31:28  <Samu> openTTD was solo now
17:31:39  <Samu> derp, *nocab was solo now
17:32:02  <Samu> he builds the first route, then after a while... crash
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17:34:11  <Wormnest_> It may be collecting so much data for such a large map that squirrel or openttd canÂŽt handle it
17:35:18  <Samu> 3.3 GB RAM in use
17:36:07  <Samu> OpenTTD with a total of 4.2 GB virtual size, i don't know if there's a limitation there
17:36:19  <Samu> but I tested Release x64 build
17:36:31  <glx> call stack looks like a recursion
17:39:04  <glx> and it's the garbage collector
17:39:04  <Wormnest_> Did the NoCAB script debug window show any details about what it was doing
17:39:20  <Samu> yes
17:39:41  <Samu> building connections in the background it seems
17:39:46  <Samu> not really building them
17:40:12  <Samu>
17:40:13  <Samu> there
17:42:25  <Samu> will try NoCAB on a 2K map
17:43:20  <glx> too much towns for the AI probably
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17:45:38  <Samu> the map generataed bout 12k~13k towns
17:45:48  <Wormnest_> Or you could try the Bleeding Edge version maybe it fixes the problem
17:46:13  <Samu> that version always fails to launch
17:46:38  <glx> if the AI starts listing all possible connection that can go very far with that number of towns
17:47:15  <V453000> if I make a NewGRF which only uses replace and replacenew, so that it can be used as a base set, can I make it for example define a new vehicle - possible to turn off by a parameter, and still use it as static newgrf with that vehicle turned off by the parameter?
17:47:31  <V453000> in other words, do parameter-disabled things break the static-only usage?
17:47:47  <V453000> I guess they shouldn't, right??
17:48:25  <glx> I think openttd checks the current state for static
17:50:20  <V453000> -> I can just have a parameter "make newgrf work as static" ?
17:51:15  <Alberth> why not make 2 newgrfs?
17:51:46  <Alberth> eliminates all mistakes
17:52:03  <V453000> that's meh
17:52:15  <V453000> I would prefer to have one if I can
17:52:23  <V453000> the extra functions won't be much
17:52:41  <V453000> universal wagon, universal rail
17:52:45  <Alberth> 80% of the users don't set parameters
17:53:11  <V453000> yeah, vast majority of users has no clue what is a static newgrf either
17:53:30  <Alberth> well, that saves you pretty much then :)
17:53:31  <V453000> so on that note the separation of newgrfs has no use for them :P
17:53:38  <frosch123> V453000: no that does not work
17:53:43  <frosch123> but you can make an add-on grf
17:53:56  <V453000> why doesn't it work? :(
17:54:56  <frosch123> the "unsafe" check does not evalutate parameters
17:55:41  <V453000> :(
17:55:43  <V453000> :(
17:55:45  <V453000> :(
17:56:13  <Samu> NoCAB seems working on a 2k map, already made 3 routes
17:56:18  <V453000> I wonder if I want to release 2 versions, one for static use and one complete
17:56:23  <V453000> cause add-on is kind of meh
17:56:28  <Samu> mem usage peaked at 1.5 GB virtual
17:57:31  <Samu> let me see how many towns it generated
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17:58:11  <Samu> 3k towns
18:01:51  <V453000> :( why nothing I think about in the last 2 weeks works
18:04:22  <Samu> virtual size is rising, at 1.670K now, hmm maybe i better wait and see what happens
18:04:32  <Samu> it may yet crash
18:05:56  <Eddi|zuHause> why do you need both a static and a non-static grf? sounds like wrong design goals
18:08:17  <V453000> well because brix is mostly a graphics replacement, but it would be nice if the same newgrf could also add a couple functional features
18:08:18  <_dp_> shouldn't any grf that doesn't change game mechanics be like that?
18:08:30  <V453000> because making an add-on newgrf is basically useless for any use without brix itself
18:10:03  <V453000> so it pretty much is one newgrf, but has to be split due to $reasons
18:11:00  <_dp_> hm, so you want a way to tell whether grf is static?
18:11:08  <_dp_> doesn't sound to hard to implement
18:11:16  <V453000> that, but with ability to check parameters
18:11:38  <V453000> so I could have a mostly visual replacement newgrf with a couple of extra functional features like universal rail or universal wagon for industry support
18:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> just make it a non-static grf
18:11:55  <V453000> and ability to disable each of those functional things by parameter, and then being able to use static newgrf
18:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that will never work
18:12:47  <V453000> but why couldn't it?
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18:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause> because the complexity of checking whether a grf could be used statically would surpass any level of coputability
18:14:18  <frosch123> it would also burry any option to ever make a select static newgrf gui :p
18:14:41  <V453000> yeah that would also be nice
18:15:01  <frosch123> imho a newgrf than can be static or non-static via parameter is arcane shit
18:15:03  <frosch123> don't do that
18:15:29  <V453000> the concept doesn't sound that horrible to me
18:15:30  <V453000> but k
18:17:38  <V453000> I just hate the idea of add-ons because standalone they are usually completely useless
18:17:48  <V453000> I guess I can make it less useless
18:17:51  <V453000> but still
18:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that is fine, just drop the idea of being static.
18:18:10  <V453000> ...
18:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> or drop the idea of providing functionality
18:18:43  <Eddi|zuHause> can't have both.
18:18:46  <V453000> I will probably just release two standalone functional versions
18:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a reason why opengfx and opengfx+ are different things
18:24:39  <V453000> yeah I cba writing fuckload of code just to make a base set
18:28:56  <V453000> admittedly, assuming that someone would actually want to write such a thing later after I release it, maybe it makes more sense indeed to have base grf + add on
18:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to provide functionality, you also will want to split off vehicles, industries, etc. which are fundamentally different
18:30:32  <V453000> obviously
18:30:59  <Samu> testing NoCAB on a 2Kx4K map, already got through that part where it would crash
18:31:08  <Samu> map generated 6400 towns
18:31:26  <Samu> but, who knows...
18:31:46  <Samu> I'll keep watching
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18:54:49  <Samu> I'm chaning server port from 3979 to 3980 while the server is running, but appears to make no effect. Must i restart the server?
18:54:54  <Samu> changing*
18:55:07  <Samu> i can't see it listed
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21:36:40  * Samu slaps Wormnest_ around a bit with a large fishbot
21:38:05  <Samu> wormai is having a difficult start
21:40:27  <Samu> tell me the best values for airport stuff, plz
21:40:46  <Samu> i've set it to 2000, 500, 4000
21:41:54  <Samu> i guess 4000 distance was a bad idea
21:49:01  <Samu> well, I started a 6th AI, there's 2 worms now
21:49:13  <Samu> 500, 150, 1500 vs 2000, 500, 4000
21:55:20  <Wormnest_> Well it really depends on the date you start and size of map
21:55:30  <Samu> 1950
21:55:38  <Samu> map is 4kx2k
21:56:00  <Wormnest_> I guess 500 for minimum town size is ok
21:56:56  <Wormnest_> with that map size and number of towns minimum distance I would guess maybe 1000, not more
21:57:49  <Samu> 1000 minimum distance? but max value is 500
21:58:14  <Wormnest_> maximum doesn matter as much but in 1950 planes will have trouble to go 4000 tiles in a reasonable time
21:59:03  <Wormnest_> where do you see max 500
21:59:26  <Samu> minimum distance between airports, it's capped to 500
21:59:32  <Samu> in AI parameters
22:00:01  <Wormnest_> ah I see, havenÂŽt touched that part in a long time lol
22:00:31  <Wormnest_> At that time 2kx2k maps were the max size
22:00:57  <Samu> plane speed is 1/4
22:01:58  <Wormnest_> I guess a min/max distance of 500, 2000, for plane speed I have never tested anything but 1/4
22:02:10  <Samu> 475 km/h /4 = 118 km/h
22:03:14  <Samu> let me check NoCAB aircraft stuff, he's usually good at calculating optimal distance
22:03:29  <Wormnest_> IÂŽm planning on removing those settings sometime theyÂŽre too dependent on other factors
22:04:32  <Wormnest_> Yea thatś what I want to do too + maybe a prefernce for short, medium or longer routes
22:05:40  <Samu> airport 1 coordinates: 2897 x 1774
22:06:09  <Samu> airport 2 coordinates: 2728 x 2039
22:06:22  <Samu> what's the distance here?
22:07:19  <Wormnest_> lol IÂŽm not an expert of that kinda math
22:07:19  <Samu> 434?
22:08:06  <Samu> gonna try a 3rd WormAI with a 400 for max distance
22:09:27  <Wormnest_> on a 512x512 map I usually use 100 or 150 for min and 1000 for max
22:11:50  <Samu> the first wormai is doing so bad that the 2nd one already ahead
22:12:18  <Samu> killing the first then
22:13:11  <Samu> nocab crashed... took too long to save t.t
22:13:12  <Wormnest_> That early thereÂŽs probably not enough towns large enough
22:13:19  <Samu> someone joined game t.t
22:13:35  <Wormnest_> not me, my own ai game is still running
22:14:05  <Samu> sometimes i wish i could strip apart the save feature
22:15:12  <Samu> can't really trust NoCAB for multiplayer games
22:15:17  <Samu> it can't save
22:16:13  <Wormnest_> I did have a look at the Bleeding Edge version one time but didnÂŽt fix it yet
22:16:32  <Wormnest_> though I think I fixed another bug there
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22:18:04  <Samu> why is that AIs got to save while  a client is joining? do they really have to?
22:18:15  <Samu> clients aren't running the script
22:18:24  <Samu> they don't need the AI save
22:18:38  <Wormnest_> I have no idea I always use single player
22:19:17  <Wormnest_> My WormAI has a savegame loading bug too which if fixed in the development version
22:19:50  <glx> Samu: AI saves when server saves
22:20:33  <glx> because openttd tell them it's time to save
22:22:55  <Samu> must find where in the code that happens
22:23:24  <Samu> i believe they don't need to save in this case
22:24:11  <Wormnest_> no idea
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22:35:42  <Samu> gonna test
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22:47:31  <Samu> okay, AI not saving his data
22:47:35  <Samu> saveempty
22:48:04  <Samu> yeah, I'm in
22:48:18  <Samu> there seems to be no issues, apparently, gonna build a bit of stuff
22:55:18  <Samu> looks good
22:55:39  <Samu> i've built stuff as the server, and as the client that joined
22:56:24  <Samu> might need some more testing to be really sure
22:58:51  <Samu> the other day, glx you told me clients that join a server that runs the AI can't save their data on the savegame
22:59:18  <glx> yes they discard it on load
22:59:41  <Samu> seems like when a client joins, the same could be applied here
23:00:13  <Samu> but it's the server performing the save now, maybe with a bool flag, something akin to what I did with faster server patch
23:00:27  <Samu> faster autosave patchP
23:00:47  <Samu> brb, gonna try this bool thing
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23:48:47  <Samu>
23:48:57  <Samu> what u think?
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23:57:04  <Samu> seems to be doing it as intended
23:57:28  <Samu> if i manually save the game, the AIs are saving their data, if a client joins, the AIs aren't saving their data
23:58:01  <Samu> and boy NoCAB stalls the save process for 20 seconds... poor client gets network game connection lost
23:59:32  <Samu> autosaves better keep saving AI data

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