Log for #openttd on 22nd May 2016:
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00:31:43  <Samu> just added this "feature" to my patch
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00:32:15  <Samu> and now, cyas goodnight
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05:43:33  <Alberth> o/
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09:04:11  <frosch123> moin mammals
09:05:06  <Alberth> moin
09:05:23  <Alberth> most mammals are still asleep today :)
09:10:33  <frosch123> yes, i found an item on my todo list, that i already did !
09:14:36  <Alberth> ha, you're faster than yourself :)
09:15:50  <Alberth> btw, slowly working on the scenario tar format, save is somewhat working currently
09:16:04  <frosch123> nice :)
09:16:32  <Alberth> the proposal is still missing a lot though, eg no idustries at all
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10:17:33  <Samu> hi
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10:29:42  <Samu> hi, Wormnest
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10:30:12  <Samu> i tried WormAI using only trains, it cannot start because of loan/money issue
10:30:18  <Wormnest> hi
10:30:40  <Samu> can't build station, i check his money, he's in negative balance, but it could ask for loan
10:30:42  <Wormnest> Hm, I think I may have fixed that in the development version
10:30:48  <Samu> oki
10:31:21  <Wormnest> You could try the dev version its on openttdcoop and bitucket
10:31:43  <Wormnest> Has some other improvements too
10:33:18  <Samu> i'm testing 15 wormais together
10:33:23  <Samu> but with different parameters
10:34:13  <Samu> on a giant map
10:35:12  <Samu> too early to come with any conclusion
10:35:46  <Wormnest> ah cool
10:37:44  <Samu> if you want to obs, try joining the game
10:37:53  <Samu> hopefully your AIs save fast
10:38:02  <Wormnest> though ai parameters only dont make the difference
10:38:21  <Wormnest> well Iáž¿ still running my own game so maybe another time
10:38:27  <Samu> ok
10:39:03  <Wormnest> e.g. starting WormAI in 1930 the only train vesion will perform better than air only
10:39:15  <Wormnest> but in 1980 itÂŽs probably reversed
10:40:18  <Wormnest> Maximum number of planes and trains and other settings are also relevant ofcourse
10:40:43  <Samu> i've set 5000,5000,5000,5000 vehicles
10:40:56  <Samu> started in 1950
10:41:29  <Samu> testing on temperate tileset this time
10:42:53  <Samu> train physics are realistic accel with default on the rest
10:43:15  <Samu> let me recheck
10:44:45  <Samu> no disasters for airplanes
10:45:15  <Samu> allow town control level noise for airports
10:45:27  <Samu> difficulty settings profile for AI is hard
10:45:37  <Samu> 250k ops
10:45:43  <Samu> construction speed very fast
10:46:15  <Wormnest> Well then in the end air only should win over train only
10:47:04  <Samu> inflation is off
10:47:07  <Wormnest> unless using a NewGRF that makes airplanes more expensive and/or trains more profitable
10:47:18  <Samu> no, i don't use newgrfs, i hate that
10:48:25  <Wormnest> ofcourse turning infrastructure costs on will make the air only go bankrupt pretty fast
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10:48:52  <Samu> infrastructure costs is off
10:48:53  <Wormnest> probably even the train only ones since I donÂŽt really take that into consideration
10:49:18  <Samu> im also not using cargo distribution stuff
10:50:37  <Samu> 500k max loan, no breakdowns
10:50:53  <Samu> maybe i should start testing ais with breakdowns on
10:50:58  <Samu> but meh...
10:54:54  <Wormnest> Those shouldnÂŽt matter especially when testing only 1 type of ai
10:55:59  <Wormnest> Although airplanes that fly longer distances will take a lot longer to arrive
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11:19:42  <Samu> hey Wormnest, since you test AIs, what do you think of my patch?
11:19:53  <Samu> what does it need?
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11:31:37  <Wormnest> Sorry havenÂŽt really looked at it and havenÂŽt compiled OpenTTD in several years
11:34:35  <Wormnest> All slots always being configurable and being able to open readme etc sounds useful
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11:34:59  <Wormnest> DonÂŽt know if the status icons are really needed
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11:37:05  <Eearslya> frosch123: Gasp, like..4 months later the issue I fixed is finally closed XD
11:37:49  <frosch123> lucky you, others were 12 months old :p
11:39:24  <Eearslya> I should hang out here more often and see if there are other little things I can fix
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11:45:10  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27580 /trunk/src (articulated_vehicles.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2016-05-22 13:45:03 +0200 )
11:45:11  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6395]: Set date of last service on construction also for wagons and articulated parts.
11:51:24  <_dp_> hi, just remembered one small thing that always bugged me.
11:51:42  <_dp_> station "built" date in info window is actually date of last modification
11:52:04  <_dp_> is that really indentional? coz I find real built date to be much more useful
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11:52:27  <frosch123> it is for date-dependent graphics
11:52:36  <frosch123> they shall update when overbuilding the station
11:53:05  <_dp_> ah, ok
11:53:48  <_dp_> built date is useful for moderating in mp (stealing and such), so would be nice to have it too
11:54:45  <frosch123> no idea, i do not even know whether there is only a single date, or individual dates for station parts
11:55:53  <_dp_> single
11:57:17  <_dp_> hm, does that mean whole station will update graphics when sigle piece is added I wonder
11:57:46  <frosch123> i am sure someone thought about that in 2006 :p
11:57:53  <frosch123> and then made it like ttdp did
11:58:40  <_dp_> %)
11:58:48  <frosch123> i am no big fan of using many station graphics, so i have no idea what "features" are actually used
11:59:42  <frosch123> i wondered about making the ai callback for selecting station graphics also accessible to humans :p
12:00:41  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27581 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2016-05-22 14:00:36 +0200 )
12:00:42  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6461]: Button size computation in script configuration window. (adf88)
12:02:41  <Alberth> I once discussed with andy to move station graphics mostly to newobjects
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12:03:31  <Alberth> it would need probably to have some communication to the object for displaying cargo graphics
12:04:14  <frosch123> but... that would break station walking! all cheaters are doomed
12:06:10  <_dp_> don't use station grfs either, can't even think of one that uses that date
12:06:39  <frosch123> i am sure there is if you look into the realism bs :)
12:06:42  <_dp_> wait, what will break walking?xD
12:07:12  <frosch123> _dp_: making non-track station tiles not count to the station area
12:08:05  <frosch123> so people are punished by having to place tiles with track inbetween houses
12:08:39  <_dp_> frosch123, what are non-track tiles? newgrf stuff?
12:09:17  <frosch123> yes, when building stations with newgrf stations, there are some graphics for platforms with track
12:09:39  <frosch123> and some graphics for buildings or mineral piles for tiles, which then have no track
12:10:03  <_dp_> also walking is about moving station sign, don't see why can't be done with track tiles, aren't you talking about spreading?
12:10:11  <frosch123> some of them look like regular town houses, so you can station walk without anyone noticing a graphical disturbance
12:10:31  <frosch123> _dp_: yeah, station walking and spreading is the same for me
12:11:20  <_dp_> ah, no, they are completely different :p
12:11:46  <_dp_> spreading is getting more coverage area, I usually do with adding bus stations
12:12:07  <_dp_> walking is moving station sign, usually for keeping authority
12:12:11  <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: originally, station walking was a method for constructing disconnected station parts, had nothing to do about station sign
12:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> (in fact, you could not move the station sign at all)
12:13:05  <_dp_> ah, ok, I'm relatively new to openntd, now there is ctrl for that xD
12:13:49  <frosch123> yes, there was a time when the station sign position was not updated when removing parts of the station
12:13:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (so part of station walking involved constructing the station sign at the furthest point available, and then "walking" the station towards the acceptance area of the cargo)
12:14:02  <frosch123> so you could have the platform and the sign on opposing sites of the map
12:14:33  <Flygon> Thooooose were the days
12:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the "walking" part of the name probably came from the fact that you (usually) alternated between building a truck stop and a bus stop
12:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and then removing the other one
12:15:26  <_dp_> oh snap, and it didn't even check station size for sign?
12:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> as you could only have one rectangular train station, one bus stop, and one truck stop per station
12:17:22  <_dp_> yeah, I see how that's "walking", good that's fixed)
12:18:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how many people actually abused the station-sign-outside-station "feature"
12:21:23  <_dp_> Now only way to "cheat" with walking I know of is for CB that checks station's "nearest" town
12:22:15  <V453000> if newobjects could show cargo AND tracks could be laid under them, it would work perfectly fine
12:22:57  <Alberth> the discussion was only cargo graphics
12:23:16  <Alberth> and all the non-platform tiles, buildings etc
12:23:39  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: how would an object know about cargos?
12:24:12  <Alberth> it gets told about cargoes at nearby station?
12:24:18  <V453000> I am not saying I know the technical solution, I just say those things are necessary to make them replace station tile graphics
12:24:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that sounds horrible.
12:24:59  <Alberth> well, it mostly started by my comment that the office buildings etc that don't need to be station tiles
12:26:02  <Alberth> not sure how horrible it is, the current "all platform tiles show the same" isn't that useful either
12:26:22  <Alberth> although that has nothing to do with being station tiles, perhaps
12:26:40  <V453000> elyon has some amazing functionalities coming for stations, NML for stations, and CATS
12:26:46  <V453000> shame all of that is lost
12:27:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that's just NewGRF coders being lazy and picking "most cargo" instead of a specific (or random) one
12:27:04  <V453000> I can try to contact her but I doubt it will be brought anywhere
12:27:32  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I'd really like to know which cargoes a station has, besides one
12:27:40  <Eddi|zuHause> well, maybe the tools available are not optimal
12:27:56  <Alberth> likely :)
12:30:05  <V453000> nfo is just other world
12:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> idea: sort cargos from smallest to largest, and sum up the numbers until you reach a (potentially randomized) threshold, then use the cargo that put you over the threshold
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12:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> needs some scaling
12:32:26  <Alberth> does that even need sorting?
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12:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i think sorting helps
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12:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> if you specifically want some tiles to show "rare" cargos, you give them a low threshold manually
12:34:00  <Alberth> your treshold just points at a random point in the sequence, more cargo of one kind means it catches more points
12:34:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, if the threshold were completely random
12:34:57  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes it might be not, then some more specific behaviour might make sense
12:35:08  <Alberth> fair enough
12:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> next problem would be with mixing bulk/piece cargos. some tiles might only want to show bulk, and the others only piece
12:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you either need to filter out the cargos before making the sum, or you get "invalid" cargos which would then show empty tiles
12:39:21  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: idea: show random cargo amounts that slowly change throughout the year
12:39:33  <frosch123> also looks nice with full load
12:40:11  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'd use the monthly throughput instead of the currently waiting cargo for that
12:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and while at it, the thresholds for showing low/high amount of cargo should be randomized throughout the station, so not all tiles switch simultaneously
12:42:09  <frosch123> do grfs even use that?
12:42:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah
12:44:50  <V453000> we wanted to use it in CATS
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12:49:50  <Samu> svn updating is complaining about a "Conflicted" action
12:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> ISR definitely has small and big piles
12:50:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and i think even NewStations has small and big number of passengers
12:50:25  <Samu> something in ai_gui.cpp is "Conflicted" t.t, i'm not used to this
12:50:29  <frosch123> i think i overinterpreted your statement
12:50:38  <frosch123> i thought you meant the small/large threshold
12:50:47  <frosch123> but you actually only mean the "load amount"
12:51:21  <Samu> brb, gonna revert my patch stuff
12:52:42  <Samu> ah, it updated everything fine now
12:53:01  <Samu> there's a conflict probably because of my editing of ai_gui.cpp
12:53:26  <Samu> and there's a "merged"
12:53:48  <Samu> saveload.cpp - "merged"
12:54:18  <Samu> sorry, i'm asking dumb questions, first time I had openttd trunk revisions affecting files I've also edited
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13:03:53  <Alberth> I am sure whatever gui tool you use for the VCS, its manual explains updates and conflicts
13:04:25  <Samu> Rejected patch hunks for 'ai_gui.cpp'
13:04:37  <Samu> i use tortoise svn
13:05:24  <Samu> this was rejected -
13:05:34  <Samu> let's see
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13:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: now i'm confused what you mean
13:17:25  <frosch123> vehicles map cargo-amount to loading-stage-graphics with a linear mapping
13:17:59  <frosch123> stations do that with a linear spline with an additional moveable control point in the middle
13:18:45  <frosch123> the first spline segment refers to "little cargo", the second one to "lots cargo"
13:22:00  <Alberth> I think the point is that different tiles should "little" and "lots" for different amounts
13:22:27  <Alberth> so you don't get this station-wide switching between them
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13:36:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think you're using "linear spline" wrong here
13:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> where it's more like a "stair function"
13:38:23  <frosch123> i think of it as a function composed of a spline and a stair applied afterwards
13:38:40  <frosch123> but well, the point is, for stations there are two step sizes
13:52:52  <Samu> inconsistent line endings... what?
14:01:11  <Samu> i don't understand why tortoisesvn is not allowing me to patch
14:01:21  <Samu> what's inconsistent line endings?
14:02:10  <Samu> do i have to write manually into visual studio?
14:02:17  <Samu> t.t
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14:20:02  <Alberth> it means the line termination of some lines is different from the other lines
14:20:33  <Alberth> typically you're mixing unix line termination with windows line termination
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14:31:48  <Samu> gah, already hurried to make a patch without seeing the end result
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14:32:01  <Samu> i'm really newb to all this
14:32:23  <Samu> visual studio autostyle always getting in the way
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14:41:17  <Samu> i've edited by hand now
14:41:24  <Alberth> is windows ever not in the way?
14:41:47  <Samu> copy each line individually from svn, then paste on visual studio
14:41:57  <Samu> then pay attention to the autostyle
14:42:56  <Samu> if i copy multiple lines from svn to visual studio, then save on visual studio, when i try to create a patch on tortoisesvn, it would complain about end of line
14:43:34  <Samu> i blame tortoisesvn
14:43:46  <Samu> their text editor looks a bit rushed
14:44:01  <Samu> notepad++ doesn't do this
14:45:17  <Samu> i can write entire code lines in notepad++, then copy from it, paste on visual studio, save, then tortoisesvn still creates patches without complaining
14:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause>
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15:35:35  <andythenorth> CHIPS uses the little/lots thresholds
15:36:33  <andythenorth> station cargo sprites are a BAD FEATURE though
15:36:46  <Alberth> o/
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15:40:08  <andythenorth> I cannot think of any plausible rule to distribute the waiting cargos across multiple tiles
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15:41:48  <Alberth> to see all the cargoes waiting at the station, and to some extent, the relative quantity
15:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's "reason", not "rule" :p
15:42:25  <andythenorth> :)
15:42:45  <Alberth> ah, nvm then :)
15:43:05  <Alberth> random selecting as you suggested could work
15:43:18  <Alberth> except "empty" would be nice to have too
15:43:28  <Alberth> but not that important
15:46:28  <andythenorth> I wondered about round-robin from N tile
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15:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but wouldn't that cause loads of empty tiles, because you can't adjust the number of cargos to try?
15:47:25  <andythenorth> yeah
15:47:34  <andythenorth> and it would look hotch-potch
15:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what that means
15:49:56  <andythenorth> seems google images doesn’t either
15:50:04  <andythenorth> or I don’t
15:51:53  <andythenorth> anyway, it would be a mess
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16:08:59  <andythenorth> provide a unique tile for each cargo, let the player decide what to show?
16:16:39  <openbu|2> Hello
16:21:11  <Alberth> that would be a lot of work
16:21:45  <Alberth> for each station select the tiles with the correct graphics
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16:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> the "easiest" solution for mixed cargos is to provide a tile for each cargo and let the user choose
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16:34:49  <andythenorth> refittable tiles?
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17:35:37  * NGC3982 mixes Eddis cargo
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17:45:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27582 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2016-05-22 19:45:36 +0200 )
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 18 changes by Absay
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19:11:28  <_dp_> wish there was code to get back previous color in strings
19:15:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there is not. live with it or change it.
19:18:59  <Rubidium> _dp_: no need to wish
19:19:17  <Rubidium> just look at negative amounts of currency
19:24:34  <_dp_> Rubidium, what do you mean?
19:38:04  <Alberth> your wish got granted :)
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20:00:04  <_dp_> not quite, there seems to be special character for that, but no actual string code to use
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20:07:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so add a string code?
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21:24:26  <_dp_> damn, I hate stupid services that think they can freeze my pc for 15 mins to do their useless crap :(
21:24:41  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, it's a trivial one-line change
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21:30:42  <_dp_> also I think I found a way for server to crash client while messing with those special codes xD
21:30:56  <_dp_> not much of an issue ofc
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22:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause> err... "server crashing clients" is ALWAYS an issue.
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22:28:04  <_dp_> even if it takes patched server? also just uncatched exception so no exploiting it
22:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
22:29:15  <Eddi|zuHause> servers can never be trusted
22:30:01  <_dp_> well, strings compilation throws when it encounters invalid utf, so if server manages to send one client will probably crash
22:30:15  <_dp_> in gs strings I mean
22:46:57  <_dp_> hm, not sure how but looks like it doesn't crash
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22:49:35  <_dp_> darn exceptions are hard to follow :(
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22:58:41  <_dp_> ok, savegame loading calls str_validate, so everything's fine, nvm
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23:20:42  <Samu> oh, i have had the opposite happening to me[23:19] <Eddi|zuHause> err... "server crashing clients" is ALWAYS an issue.
23:21:06  <Samu> There are rare occurences that a client crashes the server
23:21:17  <Samu> usually happens with gs running in the server
23:21:43  <Samu> he joins, server crashes for no apparent reason
23:35:26  <Samu> ah, i remember, an "Access violation on free ", while doing memory operation stuff
23:35:46  <Samu> anyone here?
23:56:09  <Samu> cyas goodnight
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