Log for #openttd on 5th June 2016:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:07  <supermop> jo = ja?
00:17:26  <planetmaker> yes. It's a bit slang / dialect
00:20:06  <supermop> again on this server, all of the other players lines are point to point, one train per track, with double 45 and 90 degree turns
00:20:13  <supermop> and no signals
00:20:29  <supermop> i feel like i only ever play against AIs?
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00:21:14  <sim-al2> Some people's building styles closely resemble the old AI...
00:22:58  <supermop> train acceleration is set to original?!?
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00:23:18  * sim-al2 dramatically takes off his glasses
00:23:32  <supermop> is this server for punishing people or something?
00:24:05  <supermop> first time ive ever seen pony running on a server, so i had to join
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00:29:41  <supermop> its 2248 though so cities are so big hard to play anywhere, so just running hovercrafts on rivers
00:33:43  <supermop> also inflation is on?
00:33:52  <supermop> ??????
00:34:30  <sim-al2> OpenTTD: Hard mode
00:35:18  <supermop> my hover craft broke down
00:35:29  <sim-al2> RIP
00:36:06  <sim-al2> I don't suppose you can buy company shares too?
00:36:14  <supermop> yep
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00:36:22  <supermop> can't afford any though
00:36:25  <Samu> are you testing AIs?
00:36:31  <sim-al2> I think you've found the anti-server
00:36:44  <supermop> no but that server sure felt like it
00:37:41  <supermop> server list would be well served with a way to discover if a server is running with such inane settings before joining
00:38:01  <sim-al2> Might be a bit unwieldy though
00:38:10  <sim-al2> And more data to send
00:38:43  <supermop> also still really hard to find anyone running firs 2 instead of 1.4
00:40:37  <sim-al2> Yeah, I see one still running FIRS 1.3
00:41:32  <Samu> i'm testing cargodist on some AIs
00:42:10  <Samu> not all of them are readily for this setting, though they can manage staying afloat
00:42:37  <Samu> doesn't look they will die, but won't progress as fast as they use to
00:43:55  <supermop> ok this server is going to melt my computer
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00:51:54  <supermop> how can anyone play on these 2048^2 maps
00:55:25  <Mazur> With a lot of time to waste?
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01:02:33  <supermop> here is a 2048x64 map
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01:47:31  <Leanden> Hopefully someone can help me
01:47:40  <Leanden> Ive code plenty of trains with livery refits no problem at all
01:47:47  <Leanden> but my Eurostar is causing me grief
01:48:00  <Leanden> for whatever reason 3 out of the 20 coaches will not change livery
01:48:27  <Leanden> 2 of them are item_BR373TBK and the other is item_BR373DMb
01:48:40  <Leanden> Full code available here:
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08:11:59  <andythenorth> o/
08:14:16  <Alberth> o/
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08:44:39  <_dp_> <sim-al2> 00:40:37> Yeah, I see one still running FIRS 1.3  <-- haha I know that server ^^
08:45:10  <_dp_> Guess nobody felt like balancing it for newer versions
08:45:33  <_dp_> And I don't know firs myself
08:46:20  <_dp_> From what I heard ports completely break gameplay
08:49:16  <andythenorth> shouldn’t be allowed
08:49:20  <andythenorth> delete it from bananas
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09:27:34  <Mutter> Hello o/
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09:27:59  <Gja> o/ Leanden
09:28:13  <Leanden> I need NML help :(
09:28:28  <Leanden> I coded my eurostar 373 on the BRTrains set
09:29:07  <Leanden> When i refit the livery the whole train changes as expected except for the buffet cars and the trailing motor which both stay in default livery
09:30:08  <Leanden> I am fairly sure the problem lies with the cargo_subtype switch, but i cant see any errors
09:30:44  <Leanden> Full code is on the BRTrains dev thread if anyone could take a look.
09:32:06  <Leanden>
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09:44:55  <Leanden> Is there a limit to how many switches in a single pnml document or somethig like that?
09:45:15  <Leanden> Or maybe to do with the train length as its 20 cars long?
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10:16:11  <frosch123> moin mammals
10:21:09  <Alkel_U3> Hm, I can't find a language-compatible goal-less server with FIRS running on 1.6. Might as well start my own.
10:21:13  <Alkel_U3> morning
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11:46:19  <andythenorth> hmm
11:46:23  <andythenorth> these trucks are all wrong
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12:14:36  <frosch123> yay, hail :/
12:17:23  <andythenorth> :o
12:19:11  <frosch123> size increasing, i hope everyone ran away when the thunder started
12:23:26  <frosch123> some are easily 2cm diameter
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12:32:44  <planetmaker> autsch. That's tough
12:33:42  <planetmaker> Is it helpful when I say that we have nicest weather here? Sunshine, few clouds? But it's just much too humid... maybe thunderstorm coming later
12:34:07  <frosch123> oh, it had 25 degree and sunshine 30 minutes ago :p
12:34:13  <frosch123> likely again in 15 minutes
12:34:21  <frosch123> though, the temperature may take some time
12:39:06  <planetmaker> :) Hm, my thermometer is in the sun. It's telling me 47°C :P
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12:47:45  <Alberth> in the sun, that sounds correct :p
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12:52:35  <Alberth> hmm, DisplayOptions in openttd.h, that looks a little lost :)
12:56:56  <frosch123> rename "openttd.h" to "lostandfound.h" ?
13:01:32  * andythenorth is an idiot
13:01:40  <andythenorth> I’ve re-drawn the modern trucks to be quite chibi
13:01:50  <andythenorth> which leaves no room for the older, smaller trucks :P
13:02:03  <andythenorth> just not enough pixels to actually draw them :P
13:03:44  <Alberth> :(
13:04:01  <andythenorth> solution: redraw the modern trucks :P
13:05:13  <Alberth> rename would fail, compiler isn't so smart to look in lostandfound when it looses an include file
13:08:13  <andythenorth> chibi trucks do look nicer though :P
13:08:35  <andythenorth> but they’d all have to be same size, no possibility for newer = bigger, older = smaller
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13:15:07  <Alberth> smaller length-wise :p
13:15:48  <Alberth> or rather, breath-wise
13:18:24  <andythenorth> when a cab is 3px long and 4px wide, it’s hard to draw it with any shape :)
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13:38:44  * andythenorth sizes trucks to match trains :P
13:43:18  <Alberth> nice form of road train :p
13:50:15  <Eddi|zuHause> british trains are, of course, smaller than regular trains.
13:52:19  <andythenorth> yup
13:52:19  <supermop> frosch123: summer thunderstorms are my favorite part of the season
13:52:40  <frosch123> if you are inside :)
13:52:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: file that as a bug with Iron Horse / most other train sets :D
13:54:35  <andythenorth> hmm, some tunnel glitches due to height :P
14:06:19  <sim-al2> And then there's tube trains, making regular British trains look big :p
14:06:49  <Islacrusez> tube trains? you mean glorified cans of beans?
14:07:59  <andythenorth> is there any way to stop the ottd console snaffling ctrl-b ?
14:17:47  <Alberth> don't press it?
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14:36:24  <andythenorth> :P
14:36:34  <andythenorth> reload_newgrfs, toggle bounding box :P
14:36:41  <andythenorth> is a thing I do a lot
14:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> just close the console?
14:46:05  * andythenorth not good at doing sequences in correct order :P
14:46:06  <andythenorth> nvm
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14:49:56  <Alberth> some smart cookie decided to disable bounding boxes on reload, I take it?
14:53:28  <Alberth> also, why does fios seem so bloody complicated? I can't see structure with all the magic globals
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15:54:41  <andythenorth>
15:55:19  <andythenorth> the midsize truck is the best looking sprite, but eh, there are 3 older trucks preceding it in the roster
15:56:04  <andythenorth> so I have to use the big one here
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16:06:51  <Islacrusez> doesn't necessarily need to be larger; more capacity can come from a stronger chassis or somesuch... alternatively have you tried a longer trailer without making it taller?
16:09:53  <Alberth> the "previous" could be an earlier generation
16:10:35  <Alberth> the body looks much less strong
16:11:10  <Alberth> maybe even remove a pixel to reduce height
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16:17:03  <V453000> yo humenz
16:17:45  <Islacrusez> no humenz here, only zuul
16:19:34  <V453000> zuul?
16:22:12  <Islacrusez>
16:23:43  <V453000> gg
16:29:22  <Mazur> GoatBusters!
16:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> all sorts of terrible thoughts popped in my head just there
16:30:49  <Mazur> Yeah, good, innit?
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16:54:16  <Islacrusez> Mazur, I feel violated. Thanks.
17:01:40  <BarbarianKabbage_> Wow... I haven't been here since last night XD. We went to a parade and it went on until 11:00 so the minute I got home, I fell asleep.
17:02:29  <BarbarianKabbage_> lol GoatBusters
17:02:45  <BarbarianKabbage_> If you've played the NES game it's more like GERSTBUSTERS
17:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i never played NES games
17:05:05  <BarbarianKabbage_> oh
17:05:20  <BarbarianKabbage_> Well, the opening of the game is a bad soundbyte
17:05:51  <BarbarianKabbage_>
17:05:54  <BarbarianKabbage_> There
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17:07:15  <Mazur> I've got millions more like it.
17:07:22  <Eddi|zuHause> never quite got the point of "x hours of <blah>" videos
17:07:24  <Mazur> Thank you, folks, i'll be here all year!
17:08:55  <Islacrusez> Eddi|zuHause, in most cases it's some sort of endurance challenge
17:09:28  <Islacrusez> because people have something to prove to the internetz or something
17:11:40  <BarbarianKabbage_> oh
17:11:41  <BarbarianKabbage_> lol
17:11:51  <BarbarianKabbage_> I don't understand some of them either
17:12:02  <BarbarianKabbage_> the music ones I can kind of understand
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17:52:26  <_dp_> is there any way to allow oil refineries to be built everywhere?
17:53:16  <_dp_> there is setting but it seems to change nothing rly (12-48 tiles from border, as if it matters)
17:56:14  <Alberth> newgrf can fix it, afaik
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17:59:12  <_dp_> Alberth, except that newgrf can't change default industries afaik
18:01:28  <Alberth> indeed, but you asked for "any way"
18:02:39  <Alberth> play at 64x64 would also work :p
18:03:01  <Alberth> you only need 32 tiles from the edge then :)
18:03:17  <Alberth> oh, 2048x64, anyone?  :)
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18:12:46  <_dp_> mb I'll just remove all oil
18:12:56  <_dp_> not gonna work in temperate anyway :p
18:16:15  <BarbarianKabbage_> There just made another MIDI Music for OpenTTD
18:16:43  <BarbarianKabbage_> It's Rock and Roll, and I think I'll make some more music and put it into a pack.
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18:39:40  <Samu> hi
18:41:00  <Samu> I'm trying to play openttd on a very old system and I just remembered that I need version 1.5.2
18:41:16  <Samu> newer versions past that are extremely slow
18:43:24  <Samu> where can i dl 1.5.2 or what can i do to improve openttd performance?
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18:51:51  <Alberth> get the url of a stable version, and modify it to point to the version you want
18:51:52  <debdog>
18:52:00  <debdog> hehe, beats me
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18:52:42  <Alberth> unfortunately, there are too many robot spiders continuously downloading all old versions
18:52:50  <Alberth> and eating our bandwidth :(
18:53:14  <Alberth> so the links to the older versions were removed
18:53:36  <Samu> thx, got it
18:55:41  <Samu> by chance, do you know what was changed from 1.5.2 to make it so slow?
18:58:58  <Alberth> 1.6 changelog is pretty small
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19:00:07  <Alberth> I wouldn't know what can cause that
19:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: small suggestion: if you want someone to put your music into a pack, you should include a clear and concise license (e.g. one of the CC licenses) so people in 5 years stumbling over the topic don't have to hunt you down for permission, when you've long since moved on to other projects
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19:04:14  <BarbarianKabbage_> Okay
19:04:16  <BarbarianKabbage_> Thanks
19:04:21  <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: the forum is full of art where people ignored this license thing, and nobody dares to touch it
19:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> huge parts of the 32bpp images, for example
19:06:14  <BarbarianKabbage_> I've never applied a license to something before.
19:06:37  <Islacrusez> just because people do it doesn't mean it's nice, good practice, or legal
19:07:54  <Eddi|zuHause> for the CC licenses it's fairly easy, you decide what people should or shouldn't be allowed to do (like make verbatim copies, modify it, make money off it), and it comes with a short abbreviation like "CC-BY-ND" which you stick in the description of your title
19:08:30  <BarbarianKabbage_> Oh
19:08:41  <BarbarianKabbage_> Is OpenTTD Technically COmmercial?
19:09:01  <Alberth> ?
19:09:06  <BarbarianKabbage_> I don't believe so because you can get it for free.
19:09:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not forbidden to distribute OpenTTD commecrially. some linux distributions might exclude software which forbids it
19:09:20  <BarbarianKabbage_> It's open-source
19:09:25  <Alberth> the whole point is that if you don't say what is allowed, nothing is allowed
19:09:33  <BarbarianKabbage_> oh
19:09:59  <Alberth> so the only thing that can be done is to leave it alone
19:10:45  <Alberth> ie if you publish something at the forum, it does not mean anybody can use it
19:10:59  <Alberth> you have to explicitly say so
19:11:19  <Samu> oh? :o
19:11:22  <Samu> just use it
19:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: the license of OpenTTD has almost nothing to do with the license for your music, anyway. it's almost certainly two distinct projects which can have different licenses
19:13:16  <Samu> I dont understand the point of licenses
19:13:34  <BarbarianKabbage_> Would BY-SA be a good option?
19:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, that's fine
19:13:49  <Alberth>  <-- that says a few words about licenses
19:14:08  <Alberth> Samu: It protects your work
19:15:02  <BarbarianKabbage_> Ok
19:15:09  <Islacrusez> it also tells people whether or not they can legally use your work; otherwise the more principled people might just ignore it and use something else
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19:15:39  <BarbarianKabbage_> It's gonna be BY-NC-SA
19:15:59  <Samu> if I put something online, it's already there, I can't claim anything anymore.
19:16:07  <Alberth> Islacrusez: using it not a problem as nobody knows what I use at my system, publishing is the problem, and extending it after the original author left
19:16:30  <Samu> If I really cared to restrict it, I wouldn't even post.
19:16:33  <Alberth> Samu: false, it's still your work
19:17:03  <Islacrusez> Samu, oh boy I hope you never run in with RIAA and co
19:17:11  <BarbarianKabbage_> I just don't wnt people making money off of it.
19:17:15  <Islacrusez> "It's online, you can't claim it anymore" would be a great legal defense
19:17:37  <Sylf> I would drop NC part
19:17:47  <BarbarianKabbage_> Why tho
19:17:48  <Alberth> if it's online, the only thing you can't do is make it go away :)
19:17:50  <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: that's fine, from now on put this "CC-BY-NC-SA" into the description of all titles you post
19:17:58  <Alberth> Sylf:  He picked BY-SA
19:18:20  <Sylf> oh.  I only read the BY-NC-SA part above
19:18:26  <Eddi|zuHause> NC is considered fairly restrictive
19:18:28  <Alberth> hmm, true
19:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> some more openness-oriented communities really dislike it. but i don't really see the problem
19:19:38  <Islacrusez> really, being able to sell someone else's work is a dealbreaker for people?
19:19:39  <Sylf> it's just a restriction that's not needed imo
19:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but imagine this: someone makes a let's play on youtube, which includes your music running in the background. can he tick the "monetize this video" box?
19:19:48  <Sylf> unless you're really against someone making money off of your product
19:20:12  <BarbarianKabbage_> Basically all I want is my name somewhere for the music
19:20:13  <Alberth> Islacrusez: getting BSD into an Apple machine would be
19:20:40  <Islacrusez> eh?
19:21:15  <Alberth> if you would have NC as license, you couldn't put BSD into a commercial product
19:21:35  <BarbarianKabbage_> What is a BSD
19:21:37  <Alberth> that's the dealbreaker for people
19:21:48  <BarbarianKabbage_> What's it stand for?
19:21:53  <Alberth> BarbarianKabbage_:   alternative for Linux
19:22:04  <BarbarianKabbage_> oh
19:22:19  <BarbarianKabbage_> I thought you were talking about CC codes
19:22:22  <Alberth> it has a more free license than Linux
19:22:43  <andythenorth> NC is a dumb move for most work created as a hobby
19:22:44  <Alberth> you can just take it and use it for any purpose
19:24:28  <BarbarianKabbage_> I guess BY-SA would be the easiest for me?
19:24:28  <Islacrusez> surely if you're giving away something for free, it's within the bounds of NC?
19:25:08  <BarbarianKabbage_> I'm gonna do BY-NC I think
19:25:14  <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: CC-BY-SA will give you the least troubles in the long run
19:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but in the end it's your decision
19:25:42  <BarbarianKabbage_> So CC-BY-SA Is what I'm gonna go for until I can like, sell music.
19:26:04  <BarbarianKabbage_> I'm only 13. I don't think I'm gonna get a record deal anytime soon XD
19:26:13  <BarbarianKabbage_> Especially with MIDI Music LOL
19:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also put CC-BY-NC-SA, and change your mind later and drop the NC
19:26:28  <BarbarianKabbage_> Well, It's MIDI Music
19:26:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ultimately, it's your choice, though
19:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> music is music...
19:27:03  <BarbarianKabbage_> I think I'm gonna go with CC-BY-SA is gonna be my best bet
19:27:22  <BarbarianKabbage_> RIP English ^
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19:27:31  <Sylf> :P
19:27:41  <BarbarianKabbage_> Where should I post my Music?
19:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> forum is fine for now
19:27:58  <BarbarianKabbage_> Like what directory of this forum?
19:28:03  <BarbarianKabbage_> General
19:28:14  <Sylf> request a project on :)
19:28:36  <Sylf> I might drop a midi or two too
19:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> there's not going to be much demand for a music subforum, so general is fine :)
19:30:03  <BarbarianKabbage_> I'm gonna pobably sound like an idiot but... what is an OpenID
19:30:27  <Sylf> it's a single-sign-on system
19:30:29  <Eddi|zuHause> like a wallet, where you collect logins to sizes
19:30:34  <Eddi|zuHause> *sites
19:30:43  <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't have to remember hundreds of passwords
19:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> or worse, use the same password everywhere
19:32:01  <andythenorth> silly trucks
19:32:06  <andythenorth> and their silly number of wheels
19:32:26  <Eddi|zuHause> usually an even number.
19:33:02  <Alberth> you don't have to do the spare tire
19:33:19  <andythenorth> IRL is just not compatible with the game :P
19:33:31  <andythenorth> the game wants a logical progression from fewer wheels -> more wheels over time
19:33:43  <andythenorth> and for each generation, same number of total wheels on different truck models
19:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sounds like a very arbitrary basis for a set...
19:35:05  <andythenorth> it’s only a detail of sprites
19:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm questioning the "the game wants" part of your premise
19:35:44  <andythenorth> means I have to draw the trucks that the rules need, rather than the ones I find interesting
19:35:50  <andythenorth> meh
19:36:00  <Alberth> nah, change the rules
19:36:04  <supermop> andythenorth: trucks get worse every 10 years
19:36:26  <andythenorth> I didn’t make the rules
19:36:29  <supermop> best truck comes out in 1900, a wheelbarrow comes out in 2050
19:36:45  <Samu> trucks get scars? pain falls apart?
19:36:45  <andythenorth> ‘your’ brain knows that you can’t have 30t / 7 axles -> 40t / 6 axles
19:36:50  <Samu> paint*
19:36:51  <andythenorth> your brain knows that more = bigger
19:36:54  <Alberth> hmm, as a sort of counter transport wrt trains?
19:36:55  <andythenorth> never more = smaller
19:37:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but your current computer is almost certainly smaller than your last one
19:37:40  <Alberth> horse carts on steroids
19:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> 5 years ago i'd have said the same about phones, but they went a different direction...
19:38:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: oddly enough, it’s been same size for about 10 years :P
19:38:10  <andythenorth> and yes, phones prove the point currently :(
19:38:13  <andythenorth> silly big phones
19:38:35  <BarbarianKabbage_>
19:38:39  <BarbarianKabbage_> That's my topic
19:38:51  <Alberth> it happens when you want to read the newspaper at your phone :)
19:40:01  <BarbarianKabbage_> I want to thank you guys for helping me :)
19:41:44  <Eddi|zuHause> BarbarianKabbage_: fine. just to emphasise: you should put the "CC-BY-SA" bit also in each file you post, not just in the topic
19:41:56  <BarbarianKabbage_> Yeah
19:42:06  <BarbarianKabbage_> That's what I'm gonna do
19:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause> (assuming every file has a title and a description, put it into the description)
19:42:28  <BarbarianKabbage_> Okay
19:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that's also where you put your name.
19:44:51  <Eddi|zuHause> (and when i say "name" it doesn't have to be your real name, can also be an alias (artist name)
19:44:55  <Eddi|zuHause> )
19:54:49  <andythenorth> eh
20:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there should only be one axle at the front
20:01:28  <andythenorth> because...?
20:01:50  <Eddi|zuHause> one to support the weight of the cab, two to support the weight of the cargo
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20:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the cargo is mostly in the back
20:02:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so the back should have more axles than the front
20:02:38  <andythenorth> so the problem is realism?
20:02:50  <Eddi|zuHause> not really...
20:03:08  <sim-al2> There seems to be a lot of trucks with axles like that, although a bit more spread out
20:03:43  <andythenorth> UK truck configurations tend to be driven by legal regime
20:03:51  <andythenorth> hence this
20:03:58  <andythenorth> for 1940s-1950s trucks
20:04:44  <andythenorth> only legal high configuration for high payload at that time
20:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say that truck is much bigger than the one in your picture
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20:05:08  <andythenorth> I made the game ones a bit chibi
20:05:14  <andythenorth> I’m making them longer again
20:05:31  * Islacrusez is very confused at all this arbitrary stressing about axles
20:05:41  <andythenorth> buy menu has to look good
20:05:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that's fine, but the "chibi" thing emphasises the "too many axles" problem
20:05:54  <andythenorth> problem is realism
20:06:01  <andythenorth> needs to be abandoned
20:06:05  <andythenorth> usual problem
20:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> if you make it "chibi", remove some axles
20:06:54  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the "problem" is that you can't decide whether to make it "realistic" or not, so your thoughts go back and forth too much
20:07:08  <Islacrusez> so the logical conclusion is that the first available vehicle should be a wheelbarrow and the last available vehicle should be rocket transporter?
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20:07:39  <Islacrusez> quit stressing about how the buy menu looks, nobody's gonna look at the pictures anyway
20:08:04  <andythenorth> Islacrusez: wheelbarrow -> rocket transporter sounds like a strong progression ;)
20:08:24  <Eddi|zuHause> if your goal is to make a logical wheel progression, then list all the wheel arrangements before making any pixel
20:08:47  <andythenorth> oh I did that in BANDIT
20:08:53  <Islacrusez> decision process for upgrading to a new vehicle: does this new vehicle have better stats than my existing vehicle y/n; y-> upgrade
20:08:59  <andythenorth> I have a page of a notebook listing all the logical progression
20:09:05  <andythenorth> but no pixels
20:09:12  <andythenorth> and BANDIT was really boring, no soul
20:09:58  <andythenorth> also procedural graphics generation :P
20:09:59  <andythenorth> meh
20:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause> well, then define wheel progression as a non-goal.
20:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> then you have two approaches left: make the pixels first, then give them stats, or make the stats first, then give them pixels
20:11:27  <andythenorth> stats first, then pixels
20:11:38  <Islacrusez> also if your vehicle progression has no depth you end up in the completely soul-crushing situation where there is only one correct vehicle at any given time; you should have alternatives that fill different needs
20:11:52  <andythenorth> Islacrusez I think the opposite
20:12:00  <andythenorth> there should always be one correct vehicle
20:12:09  <Islacrusez> then why play? the designer has already made the decisions for you?
20:12:26  <Islacrusez> there should be a correct vehicle for the job, not for the time period
20:12:37  <andythenorth> ok, that’s a better description yes
20:12:53  <andythenorth> these sets are designed on ‘one obvious choice’, not ‘only one choice'
20:13:22  <Islacrusez> but surely if you're focusing on how the buy list looks, you're losing track of that goal
20:13:30  <andythenorth> why?
20:13:56  <andythenorth> vehicle appearance should give player a clue to stats
20:14:56  <Islacrusez> vehicle x fits condition x1, vehicle y fits condition y1; list goes x, y; if you're focusing on the buy list having a progression, you force yourself to give the visual appearance of y > x, despite the opposite being true under x1
20:15:31  <andythenorth> nah, I don’t get that, sorry :)
20:16:00  <andythenorth> if there’s no progression between vehicle generations, why have them?
20:16:18  <andythenorth> if gen 2 is not better than gen 1, why have it?
20:17:09  <Islacrusez> better != bigger != more axles != prettier
20:17:46  <Islacrusez> better yes, but you're using very arbitrary appearance parameters as your definition for better
20:18:05  <andythenorth> what is better?
20:19:03  <Eddi|zuHause> better could mean more speed, more capacity, less running costs, other...
20:19:27  <Islacrusez> better performance; which should be a distinct a distinct metric for all the different vehicles types and the progression of each vehicle type should be an improvement in that specific metric for every generation
20:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd approach it differntly: two vehicles for the same general purpose should have the same basic look, only the style changes with the times
20:20:48  * andythenorth is still convinced that “better = bigger"
20:21:05  <andythenorth> I don’t think anything else makes sense to players
20:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i disagree.
20:21:26  <Islacrusez> if that's your view of players I wonder why you bother =/
20:21:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the "better" comes from the stats, not from the looks
20:21:55  <Islacrusez> I look at the stats, as apparently does Eddi, and I'd wager that anyone playing to do well
20:22:29  <andythenorth> I don’t think it makes sense to ‘upgrade’ from vehicle A to vehicle B, where vehicle B is smaller
20:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i said make them the same
20:23:39  <andythenorth> same physical dimensions?
20:23:40  <Islacrusez> but you would trade a cargo ship for a truck on a 10-tile route only producing 30units/month?
20:23:49  <Eddi|zuHause> make them rounder, edgier, flashier, sparkling
20:24:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, same physical dimension
20:24:44  <Islacrusez> if bigger is better, the cargo ship should always be the thing you use
20:24:49  <Islacrusez> and we all know this isn't true
20:24:58  <andythenorth> they don’t appear in same buy menu
20:25:04  <Islacrusez> so?
20:25:07  <Islacrusez> it's bigger!
20:25:10  <Islacrusez> everyone can see that!
20:25:14  <andythenorth> and ships logically are the best transport type, they’re just boring
20:25:18  <andythenorth> they have infinite capacity
20:25:29  <andythenorth> logic != fun
20:25:49  <Islacrusez> has OTTD changed drastically since I last played or something?
20:26:13  <andythenorth> when did you last play? o_O
20:26:33  <Islacrusez> last I checked it was near impossible to make money on a ship if you couldn't fill it in the minimum loading time
20:26:40  <andythenorth> ships print money
20:26:47  <andythenorth> and there are no infrastructure restrictions
20:27:03  <Islacrusez> they used to have a running cost though, don't they have that anymore?
20:27:22  <andythenorth> which is best? o_O
20:27:33  * andythenorth posts a counter argument
20:27:39  <Islacrusez> don't know, give me stats
20:27:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: electric is better.
20:27:55  <andythenorth> looks faster, stronger?
20:28:03  <andythenorth> train 3 is 100mph, 1750hp
20:28:15  <andythenorth> train 5 is 155mph, 6400hp
20:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: add racing stripes to make the trucks faster.
20:28:46  <andythenorth> ha
20:28:49  <andythenorth> streamlining
20:28:55  <andythenorth> more exhaust pipes
20:29:22  <Islacrusez> well train 5 is your choice if speed is your primary concern; but if it costs 1,000,000 $/hr then it might not be the best solution
20:29:33  <andythenorth> running cost is irrelevant
20:29:37  <andythenorth> money is not a factor in openttd
20:29:43  <Islacrusez> ...
20:29:46  <Islacrusez> wut?
20:29:55  <Islacrusez> I give up, we're not playing the same game
20:30:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it's really unlikely that two people plaing openttd play the same game :p
20:30:15  <andythenorth> no don’t give up, the argument helps the design
20:30:33  <andythenorth> now which is better?
20:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> there's just too much of a variation in gameplay
20:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the one with the most axles and strongest walls.
20:31:17  <Islacrusez> surely one should also remove: all money, loans, costs, and may as well remove the cargo too since the only purpose of moving cargo is to earn money
20:31:48  <Eddi|zuHause> volume is hardly a concern for coal, and even less so for iron ore
20:31:48  <Islacrusez> andythenorth, assuming the last one doesn't weigh 1,000,000t, probably the last one
20:32:12  <Islacrusez> ultimately it's going to be about the stats
20:32:27  <Islacrusez> what use is a wagon with infinite capacity if my trains can't move it?
20:32:36  <Islacrusez> what use is a train with infinite power if I can't afford it?
20:33:01  <Islacrusez> what use is a big vehicle if I can't load it? what use is it if it carries no cargo?
20:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Islacrusez: what use is worrying about infinity if you can never reach it?
20:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Islacrusez: what use is thinking about god if you can never meet him?
20:33:38  <Islacrusez> Eddi|zuHause, functionally infinite
20:33:51  <andythenorth> but the stats are all level for each vehicle generation
20:33:58  <Islacrusez> you can say there's no limit to how much cargo it can load, but you'll crash the game eventually
20:34:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the stats in the same generation should be uncomparables
20:34:41  <andythenorth> gen 1 trucks are all 25t, gen 2 30t, gen 3 40t
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20:34:47  <andythenorth> and they all have similar speeds and HP
20:34:56  <Islacrusez> then you're probably doing it wrong
20:35:18  <andythenorth> how many sets have you made? :)
20:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each vehicle in a generation should have a stat where it's better than all the others, and one where it's worse.
20:35:42  <Islacrusez> ^
20:35:47  <andythenorth> why bother with that?
20:35:56  <andythenorth> making rational economic choices is boring
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20:36:09  <andythenorth> the game is about building routes and stopping traffic jams
20:36:18  * Islacrusez sighs
20:36:23  <andythenorth> you pick the vehicle that matches the cargo
20:36:45  <andythenorth> why make the tanker truck arbitrarily better or worse than the open cargo truck?
20:36:50  <Islacrusez> then you're violating your own design requirement <andythenorth> these sets are designed on ‘one obvious choice’, not ‘only one choice'
20:37:04  <andythenorth> how does that violate it?
20:37:10  <Islacrusez> if one vehicle is better at everything, there's only one choice
20:37:10  <andythenorth> you pick the one that matches the cargo
20:37:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then you should have only one vehicle per generation.
20:37:19  <andythenorth> no we tried that :)
20:37:24  <Islacrusez> in fact you should only have one vehicle
20:37:31  <andythenorth> refittable truck
20:37:33  <andythenorth> very boring
20:37:34  <Islacrusez> get rid of the player too, there's no choices to make
20:37:56  <andythenorth> you’re confusing ‘choice’ with ‘economic analysis'
20:38:08  <Islacrusez> fine, there's no decisions to make
20:38:22  <andythenorth> most of the big newgrfs start out with realism, then load on stats tweaks as a form of gameplay ‘balance'
20:38:26  <andythenorth> post-hoc
20:38:46  <andythenorth> with dubious results, and tedious economic analysis to justify which vehicle is the right choice
20:39:01  <Islacrusez> so the solution is to throw out both realism and balance? ingenious
20:39:05  <andythenorth> eh?
20:39:14  <andythenorth> the balance is between different transport types
20:39:17  <andythenorth> mostly
20:39:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if the 3 stats you're balancing are speed, capacity and price, you should have (about) 3 different choices for each cargo: 1 which is cheaper but has shit speed and shit capacity, 1 which is fast but is expensive and has shit capacity, and 1 which is huge but is expensive and has shit speed
20:39:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: actually I agree almost completely with that
20:40:02  <andythenorth> trams / highway trucks / off-highway trucks
20:40:09  <Islacrusez> and yet you refuse to implement it
20:40:20  <andythenorth> I *have* implemented it :P
20:40:22  <andythenorth> that’s the set
20:40:31  <Islacrusez> but bigger is better!
20:40:38  <Islacrusez> and also money no object
20:41:16  <Islacrusez> <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: each vehicle in a generation should have a stat where it's better than all the others, and one where it's worse.
20:41:16  <andythenorth> we’re confused here about differences between vehicle types, and progression for vehicles generations
20:41:19  <Islacrusez> <andythenorth> why bother with that?
20:41:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, since we established that, from now on, consider each of these 3 categories separaately. each of these needs a logical progression over generations
20:41:37  <andythenorth> yes
20:41:40  <andythenorth> that’s all sorted
20:41:44  <andythenorth> the sprites just don’t make sense
20:41:58  <andythenorth> sprites go small -> big -> small -> small
20:42:02  <andythenorth> daft
20:42:05  <andythenorth> needs fixing
20:42:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i said, the generations should all be roughly the same size
20:42:29  <andythenorth> yes
20:42:34  <andythenorth> you are correct
20:42:37  <andythenorth> again :P
20:42:56  <andythenorth> I will interpret ’roughly’’ quite liberally though
20:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> there's only so many pixels you can add to make them "bigger" before it gets unwieldy
20:43:08  <andythenorth> yes
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20:44:11  <andythenorth> even 8/8 trailers look stupid
20:44:35  <andythenorth> I looked at the original base set trucks earlier, they’re not one of the finest parts of the original sprites :P
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20:45:42  <andythenorth> so all I need to do is ignore history of UK trucks, make all 1940s trucks 4 or 5 axles, problem solved
20:46:22  <andythenorth> thanks
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21:15:04  <_dp_> I'd really like to have more flexibility with town growth speed
21:15:23  <BarbarianKabbage_> What do you mean
21:15:42  <BarbarianKabbage_> For modding?
21:15:50  <_dp_> small towns are not fun, and once they get to like growth_rate < 3 it's too little options
21:16:19  <_dp_> and so much difference, rate 0 is twice faster than rate 1
21:16:29  <BarbarianKabbage_> Sometimes I like to play by starting in the smallest town and getting it really big. Haven't made it that far
21:16:33  <_dp_> for citybuilder
21:16:48  <BarbarianKabbage_> oh
21:16:54  <BarbarianKabbage_> I haven't played CityBuilder
21:17:52  <BarbarianKabbage_> When I first heard about it, I thought that the roles were reversed; you were having bots get resources and YOU built the city
21:18:05  <BarbarianKabbage_> ai not bots
21:18:07  <BarbarianKabbage_> srry
21:18:39  <_dp_> and it's very easy to grow town of any size in regular openttd, just build roads, do 5 stations and leave on fast-forward)
21:19:20  <BarbarianKabbage_> yeah
21:19:24  <_dp_> nooo, ofc not, cb is all about resources, growing town itself isn't that much of a problem
21:20:34  <BarbarianKabbage_> People play on big servers for CityBuilder, right?
21:20:41  <_dp_> yeah
21:20:51  <BarbarianKabbage_> I don't think I could ever go on a server
21:21:05  <_dp_> why?
21:21:06  <BarbarianKabbage_> I've been playing OpenTTD for a while and still kind of suck at it
21:21:29  <_dp_> then go on good server and learn :p
21:21:46  <_dp_> it's much better than learning from bots xD
21:21:46  <BarbarianKabbage_> what servers are good
21:22:43  <_dp_> citymania, btpro, n-ice as goal servers, openttdcoop for networking, reddit for just chilling)
21:23:05  <BarbarianKabbage_> I'm gonna try the Reddit one
21:23:20  <BarbarianKabbage_> I like how this game doesn't have a bad community :)
21:23:52  <BarbarianKabbage_> I mean, there will always be a grumpy guy, but most other games everybody calls you a noob and be mean.
21:25:44  <_dp_> yeah, most of good players are very nice and helpful here
21:26:15  <BarbarianKabbage_> What is a 'goal server'
21:26:40  <BarbarianKabbage_> like you have a goal like RollerCoaster Tycoon?
21:27:26  <_dp_> one that has some goal like "reach 1mil company value" and you compete with other players on who's first to reach it
21:27:42  <_dp_> all citybuider servers are goal ones
21:28:08  <BarbarianKabbage_> oh
21:28:28  <_dp_> didn't play rct so no idea what kind of goals are there)
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21:29:24  <_dp_> basically, on goal servers you can compete with other players
21:30:48  <BarbarianKabbage_> are you on a server currently?
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21:31:05  <_dp_> no
21:31:13  <BarbarianKabbage_> k
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21:47:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <BarbarianKabbage_> I've been playing OpenTTD for a while and still kind of suck at it <-- you find loads of people who have been playing for 20 years and still suck :p
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21:58:34  <ST2> and BarbarianKabbage_ chose a ULTRA HARD GOAL server to test - not the best to start but since you manage there, all others look like take candies to babies xD
21:59:16  <_dp_> ST2, not so sure about that ;)
21:59:47  <ST2> yeah, I know that - but for CV's?!
22:00:25  <_dp_> for cv dunno, cv is stupid :p
22:00:50  <ST2> well, same as CB... BB is the way to go :P
22:01:48  <_dp_> ST2, nah, cv is same as balance but with 1.5x for new vehicles
22:02:03  <ST2> there I agree with you
22:02:03  <_dp_> ST2, which makes no sense whatsoever
22:03:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i honestly have no clue what game you are playing there...
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22:04:03  <ST2> vanilla OpenTTD gives 1,5x CV value to who spams on buying trains
22:04:07  <ST2> for example
22:04:41  <ST2> _dp_ knows more on there, but it's a very old and known CV cheat
22:05:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never even put the remotest thought into company value.
22:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause> except for "it's stupid that it stays on 2€"
22:05:25  <ST2> it's shown on Company window ^^
22:05:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. but who ever looks at that window?
22:05:42  <ST2> and always been there, not new ^^
22:05:45  <_dp_> ST2, there is nothing more to know here)
22:06:15  <_dp_> Eddi doesn't play goal servers)
22:06:36  <ST2> CV is shown even on SP games ^^
22:06:42  <_dp_> for some reason CV is just often used for a goal
22:07:15  <_dp_> ST2, yeah, but nobody cares in sp
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22:08:01  <ST2> nothing against hoe ppl play the game
22:08:07  <ST2> how*
22:08:52  <Eddi|zuHause> ST2: you're talking like i have never seen the value before...
22:10:27  <ST2> not interest in continue discussion, but yes, kinda :P
22:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i have seen it before.
22:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> it just never was interesting
22:11:33  <Eddi|zuHause> it also showed no correlation to what i was doing in the game
22:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> might have as well be a random value
22:12:02  <ST2>
22:12:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not stating to put effort in it now :p
22:12:27  <ST2> it's common communities use it as base
22:13:00  <_dp_> ST2, so tell me, why are you still using it? ;)
22:13:29  <ST2> [23:12:21] <ST2> it's common communities use it as base  <<-- self explainatory words ^^
22:13:32  <_dp_> the second I knew it does 1.5x I was like nope, we're not running cv anymore xD
22:14:05  <_dp_> even though nova did it's own calculation without 1.5
22:14:26  <ST2> we dnt have an automatic way to do it, but vehicle number are stored in DB too
22:14:43  <ST2> so, we clean the ones that abused... when not spotted by an admin
22:15:38  <_dp_> ST2, yeah, but why bother when you can just set balance goal?
22:15:57  <ST2> bank account balance, you mean?
22:16:06  <_dp_> yy
22:16:23  <ST2> we have a script for it too, but uses admin port
22:16:33  <ST2> means, only gets info each 3 month
22:16:39  <ST2> well, same as CV xD
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22:16:53  <ST2> but you got a point there :)
22:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause> how is bank balance a useful goal?
22:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause> just means the optimal play is to stop playing some time before the end, and just let money accumulate
22:17:48  <ST2> can be a Rating goal
22:17:51  <Eddi|zuHause> any money you spend beyond that point is wasted
22:17:57  <ST2> or Cargo delivered goal
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22:18:28  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, right, but that's not that much time to wait
22:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> bank balance is also a terrible goal, because a good company invests all its money to improve service. the game has a breaking point where it gets so complex you can't spend the money fast enough, which is where you start piling up cash
22:21:14  <Eddi|zuHause> beyond that point, money is meaningless in the game
22:22:04  <ST2> as the word "goal" states... on competitive games, means that win who gets there first
22:22:06  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, don't see any problem with that
22:22:38  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, also I'm not saying balance is a very interesting goal to play, it's pretty plaing, but still ok
22:22:51  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, simple yet competitive
22:22:59  <_dp_> *plain
22:23:14  <ST2> a tricky goal, is the yearly income
22:23:52  <_dp_> yearly stuff can be abused with storing cargo
22:24:05  <ST2> exactly
22:24:25  <ST2> I called it "tricky" ^^
22:24:55  <ST2> not many players think about that option ^^
22:25:04  <_dp_> ST2, I'd call it tricky if it make a good gameplay
22:25:22  <_dp_> ST2, which I seriously doubt because of how station storage works
22:26:59  <ST2> gameplay is too a relative word, since OpenTTD allows several setting combinations that can create different tactics to reach any goal (if exists)
22:28:39  <_dp_> ST2, well, what's the best tactics here, spreding cargo across numerous storage stations with regular adv. then flooding it asap?
22:28:58  <_dp_> ST2, doesn't sound very appealing to me, and I don't see how any settings can influence it
22:29:25  <_dp_> ST2, there are no settings that change station storage afaik
22:29:35  <ST2> _dp_: not saying that was a good goal type, only that's a possibility
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22:30:42  <_dp_> ST2, honestly I don't even know any good goal type besides CB, and even that one is hard to do right
22:31:40  <ST2> BB
22:31:41  <_dp_> BB is close except that it needs some tweaking for competitive servers
22:31:47  <_dp_> xD
22:32:15  <ST2> true, but the most honest goals you can have
22:32:29  <ST2> and no, I'm not a politician xD
22:34:57  <ST2> and it can all be done with server code changes - but we use the gamescript, and for making a public server with it, we believe has legs to walk and grow
22:35:54  <ST2> despite the fact that I don't see any other online servers using BB GS
22:37:27  <ST2> which leads to the fact that OpenTTD online servers is not about what's more "balanced" but it's about what players like to play
22:37:51  <_dp_> ST2, I lost you here
22:38:14  <_dp_> now that I think of it, I'm not even sure what needs to be done to BB to make it more fair
22:38:51  <_dp_> its whole point is to give random goals, and random generally doesn't make a fair setting
22:38:59  <ST2> we use the released version, not trunk one - but needs to BB goals dnt repeat
22:39:03  <ST2> basically that
22:39:42  <ST2> I guess some work already done, since I look at BB trunk code (yes, I can read code too :P)
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22:40:00  <_dp_> givin same industry for everyone is the most obvious but not the only problem of bb
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22:40:30  <ST2> not same industry - repeating similar goals
22:40:41  <_dp_> ah, well, that too
22:40:45  <ST2> that's (or was) the issue
22:41:05  <ST2> competition is good
22:41:24  <ST2> because BB is about deliveries... dnt care from where is taken xD
22:42:01  <_dp_> competition is different
22:42:13  <_dp_> does'n go well with secondary/ternary industries
22:42:58  <ST2> yeah, and that forced us to adjust the rules on the server BB is running (can be chacked ingame)
22:43:07  <ST2> checked*
22:44:27  <_dp_> whatever, my main issue with bb is that I don't know how to limit its randomness
22:44:49  <ST2> exactly - and that's the good on it
22:45:21  <ST2> but it's not that random - with time you'll notice that has favourite towns and industries
22:46:08  <_dp_> how's it good? you have to give more or less similar goals to everyone if you want it to be fair
22:46:29  <ST2> I'm not saying that's good ^^
22:47:10  <_dp_> %)
22:47:27  <ST2> [23:44:22] <_dp_> whatever, my main issue with bb is that I don't know how to limit its randomness  <<-- maybe on "to limit its randomness" you wanted to say "to control its randomness"
22:48:17  <_dp_> ST2, mb, coz I don't see much difference xD
22:48:29  <ST2> only a word :P
22:49:27  <ST2> it's like the rand function in ttd, try that on climate choice and you'll get 70% climate "1"
22:50:01  <ST2> not much that random ^^
22:50:17  <_dp_> whatever, I want any set of it's goals to take nearly the same amount of time with same level of player skill))
22:51:01  <_dp_> ST2, bad rand distrubution is a different story, I know how to make good rand so don't care :p
22:51:22  <ST2> yeah, fixed that too ^^
22:51:56  <_dp_> btw, we don't use random climates, we use random configs ;)
22:52:19  <ST2> from what I know (code side) from BB, the goals are randommly set, but within the start goals (example 10), 5 easy, 5 long
22:52:57  <ST2> if you get 8 easy and 2 long, means that next set of woals will be 8 long and 2 easy
22:53:03  <ST2> goals*
22:54:45  <_dp_> there definitely need to be more constraints
22:55:16  <ST2> other ways to control it, yes, I agree
22:55:30  <_dp_> mb some measure like (goal - cargo in prev goals) * distance / wagon capacity will work
22:55:59  <ST2> there's already a table created for completed goals
22:56:02  <_dp_> probably need to add some factor for how fast that cargo can be acquired
22:56:04  <ST2> to dnt repeat
22:56:35  <_dp_> it's just not about simple repeating
22:56:52  <_dp_> goods goal is much easier after livestock/grain for example
22:57:14  <ST2> depends
22:58:57  <ST2> imagine a player that gets a livestock/grain goal to a factory
22:59:02  <ST2> and he make it
22:59:17  <ST2> since factory produces... a Goods goal can appear
22:59:26  <ST2> but he pulls off his tracks
22:59:53  <ST2> ah, works too on Toyland xD
22:59:53  <_dp_> why?
23:00:02  <ST2> why not?
23:00:20  <_dp_> because it's a work for no reason?
23:00:51  <_dp_> if he has another liv/grain goal he can take goods on that factory
23:01:17  <ST2> it's a work to complete a goal - and if the map is HARD... you'll need the cash of train tracks to make the missing 3 tiles for next goal
23:01:33  <ST2> only an example xD
23:01:34  <_dp_> also when I played I always stored produced goods even if no goal required them xD
23:02:09  <ST2> <ttd-srv33> Rule #3: Do not steal other players secondary or tertiary cargos. These include GOODS, FOOD, STEEL, PAPER or FIRS related cargos only. (EXCEPTION: BusyBee server, to complete goals)
23:02:43  <_dp_> how's this rule relevant (especially with exception :p)
23:02:45  <ST2> if you take goods and not for completing a Goal of your company, you're breaking that rule
23:03:13  <ST2> so, yes, it's relevant to us
23:03:16  <_dp_> I take my goods and it is for completion (well, if I get goal for it that is xD)
23:04:55  <_dp_> as for missing tiles you're sure doing something wrong if you need that pity money from removing tracks for it xD
23:04:56  <ST2> I guess you haven't played on server
23:05:52  <ST2> or #XX or even #97
23:06:03  <ST2> now imagine a mix
23:06:07  <_dp_> I played but that was some time ago
23:08:29  <_dp_> hm, I start to think of some kind of min cost max flow to generate goals xD
23:09:15  <ST2> with multiplier at 100%, min is 75, max is 3500
23:09:25  <ST2> no matter the cargo type
23:10:30  <ST2> if you mess with the cargo type, try to keep it compatible with any newgrf that can be used
23:11:25  <ST2> or even among climates ^^
23:12:31  <ST2> maybe gets easier if listed on TE_**
23:12:41  <ST2> but not with others
23:12:46  <_dp_> if I ever mess with BB I'll probably just write it from scratch
23:12:58  <_dp_> without gs coz it sucks :p
23:13:05  <ST2> hehe xD
23:13:23  <ST2> has it's limitations... we know :)
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23:18:01  <ST2> well, actually, and since I had merged BB with functions needed for server controller, I added the BeeReward too, and make it depending on a setting
23:18:12  <ST2> with a multiplier ^^
23:18:31  <ST2> oh well, we never know when we need to change the server xD
23:19:56  <ST2> but I guess you already know that, since, as you say, lang files are on the saves
23:25:43  <_dp_> not like I read your lang files for long enough)
23:25:53  <_dp_> anyway, time to sleep, bb))
23:26:08  <ST2> gn8 :)
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23:27:55  <ST2> _dp_: you have the lang file directly - you didn't read it from saves - I know it
23:28:37  <ST2> aka: time to cut the crap :D
23:28:51  <ST2> but ok, it's not a national secret ^^
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23:48:25  <Quinch> Hello, got a few questions if someone feels like answering.
23:48:42  <Quinch> First, how do multihead trains affect reliability? Do more engines decay faster or no?
23:49:04  <ST2> Quinch, it's on channel topic: Don't ask to ask, just ask
23:49:06  <ST2> xD
23:50:40  <ST2> about that, and as far as I know: multiheaded trains sum power, but only the 1st loco handle reliability
23:53:26  <Quinch> Cool, so I can lead with a 95% engine and the rest can be trash?
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23:54:48  <ST2> well, are you playing with breakdowns ON or OFF?
23:55:01  <Quinch> On.
23:55:13  <Quinch> Otherwise reliability wouldn't be an issue.
23:55:19  <ST2> so, take care of the lead loco
23:55:51  <ST2> well, page to start is here:
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