Log for #openttd on 7th June 2016:
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07:27:15  <greeter> greetings
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08:09:02  <Wolf01> moin
08:10:56  <greeter> greetings Wolf01
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08:22:22  <Alkel_U3> Morning
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10:46:40  * Sacro hugs Belugas
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11:11:31  * TJ8703 slaps ST2 around a bit with a large fishbot
11:11:48  <greeter> lol
11:12:32  <ST2> that was the slap that will make him regret long time :P
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12:12:06  <Cursarion> hmm
12:12:33  <Cursarion> is there any plans to implement subway/underground in the game?
12:12:59  <V453000> n
12:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> depends what conditions you apply to something being a "plan"
12:21:11  <Cursarion> I did a quick google search earlier and saw something from 2007
12:23:10  <Alkel_U3> iirc it was hacky and quite unstable
12:23:51  <greeter> greetings Alkel_U3
12:24:12  <Alkel_U3> EHLO greeter
12:24:20  <greeter> what's up?
12:24:36  <Alkel_U3> Work work
12:24:48  <Alkel_U3> Slow day today
12:24:48  <greeter> fun stuff
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12:26:14  <Alkel_U3> Fun stuff... you'll look at that term differently after a few hundred hours of Dwarf Fortress :P
12:26:17  <greeter> i set up an irc bot to interact with the openttd server :-D
12:26:19  <greeter> lol
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12:30:25  <argoneus> good morning train friends
12:30:42  <Wolf01> good morning argoneus
12:31:08  <greeter> greetings
12:31:44  <Alkel_U3> meanwhile, I set up a batch of yeast. This year's elderbery wine will be something
12:31:54  <greeter> nice
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13:29:49  <supermop_> yo
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13:45:40  <Alkel_U3> greeter: I see you reset the server
13:46:22  <Alkel_U3> what changed?
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14:23:26  <supermop_> sigh not sure i should bother posting this long ass response in eu referendum thread
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14:42:56  <peter1138> well you won't sway me
14:44:33  <supermop_> the post was not explicity in or out, but more to argue that a mutually beneficial relationship is actually a thing that can exist
14:45:34  <Alberth> one sentence seems sufficient :p
14:47:14  <supermop_> i picked an awkward, belabored example, that wouldn't necessarily be universally popular, and might actually be touted as a counter-example by someone who believes everything is necessarily zero-sum
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15:04:51  <peter1138> yeah but a mutually beneficial relationship isn't what is being voted on
15:07:50  <V453000> oooh politics
15:07:55  <V453000> I'm in
15:08:07  <V453000> soooo fuck the EU Y/N?
15:13:37  <Wolf01> Y
15:14:27  <V453000> so when is the referendum?
15:14:45  <V453000> pf 23
15:14:46  <V453000> far
15:17:47  <supermop_> peter1138: that's not relevant to point i was making, as I was responding to a post which seemed to argue that any relationship beneficial to one party is objectively detrimental to other parties
15:18:57  <peter1138> k
15:19:34  <supermop_> i tried drafting up NATO membership as an example, but it is a bit awkward as one might argue that the force multiplication (the benefit to members small and large) is actually a detriment
15:20:35  <supermop_> if you take the strength of NATO to be geopolitically undesirable due to personal point of view, or if you disagree with the idea of a global military hegemon on principal
15:21:22  <supermop_> both of which are valid standpoints for many people, although maybe not particularly within a member nation of the 5 eyes
15:22:25  <supermop_> if i argue that say, the Netherlands receives the 'benefit' of nuclear deterrent without the cost of a nuclear program,
15:22:58  <supermop_> many people, in the Netherlands or not, may argue that that is a dubious 'benefit'
15:23:01  <V453000> that is all nice and fancy until it becomes political/bureaucratical horseshit
15:23:19  <V453000> which is exactly what EU is to me
15:24:18  <supermop_> i could well be a Dutchman who opposes nuclear weapons, and resents the idea that American, French, and British warheads are 'protecting' me
15:24:42  <V453000> that sounds ridiculously hypocritical
15:24:50  <V453000> I hate it but it's fine if it protects me
15:25:02  <V453000> is same as "I love freedom of speech but only until you offend me"
15:26:15  <supermop_> or i could be apathetic about nuclear weapons one way or the other, but fear that those american warheads are provocative and are inviting more trouble and attention than the Netherlands would get into on its own were it a neutral nation
15:26:24  <V453000> wait do I translate resent correctly even XD
15:27:49  <supermop_> V453000: imagine that if the US were to go to switzerland, and say, we will protect you with out nuclear deterrent, free of charge, without you having to do anything!
15:28:14  <supermop_> i imagine they might not be so excited about receiving such a 'gift'
15:28:21  <supermop_> *with our
15:28:40  <V453000> -> ?
15:29:18  <supermop_> some swiss citizens would prefer to have no nuclear deterrant rather than have the US 'giving' them one
15:30:34  <V453000> I understand, but what point are you trying to say?
15:31:41  <supermop_> that my choice of an example to explain a mutually beneficial relationship was a poor one
15:32:26  <supermop_> because many people may disagree that NATO is that beneficial, whether from a pacifist, or neutrality point of view
15:32:49  <V453000> well, is current EU a mutually beneficial relationship? to me it looks like just collective socialism
15:33:21  <Alberth> what about the euro zone?
15:33:51  <V453000> you mean same currency for different states? Isn't that maintainable even without a central bureaucratic mess?
15:33:53  <supermop_> if you want your country to be neutral and pacifist, the 'benefit' that NATO gives you more collective military power for your money is actually undesirable to you
15:34:27  <supermop_> V453000: there will have to be a central bank for a currency, shared or otherwise
15:34:44  <V453000> is central bank impossible to have even without EU?
15:35:14  <supermop_> you could keep using the euro without participating in its bank, but why forfeit your voice in it
15:35:38  <supermop_> many small latin american countries use the USD or peg their currency to it
15:35:55  <supermop_> but the federal reserve remains the 'central bank'
15:36:19  <supermop_> and those countries have absolutely no voice in its decisions
15:37:14  <supermop_> the can diplomatically express that they wish the USD to be weaker or stronger, but they cannot take the actions to make it so
15:38:15  <supermop_> and the FRB did not ask those countries to use USD, and has other US-centric priorities
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15:39:23  <supermop_> if the US wants a weak dollar to better sell exports, and Ecuador wants a weak dollar to better buy imports (usually it is the other way around), Ecuador cannot do anything about it
15:42:01  <supermop_> V453000: you could make the euro totally independant of the EU, but then how would the euro's central bank then exert any control over the member users to actually affect its policy decisions
15:43:57  <supermop_> with the USD, only the US can issue more currency, and the US economy dwarfs those of other countries that share the dollar, so the Federal Reserve and the Treasury can affect monetary policy regardless of what those other countries do
15:44:42  <supermop_> if you had a shared euro where France wanted to print money, but Germany wanted to strengthen the currency, how would that work?
15:45:29  <supermop_> these would be two economies of same order of magnitude, where neither is the clear 'owner' of the central bank
15:47:10  <supermop_> you could say, well German is bigger economically, so just let them run the euro, but isn't that arguably worse for non-german states than the current bureaucracy?
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15:50:06  <supermop_> anyway, americans regardless of political leaning all benefit from a united EU, so we are biased
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15:51:21  <supermop_> sorry for the wall of text
15:53:51  <V453000> admittedly I am unable to think in this level of global economy, but when I see the bullshit laws that EU is trying to make, how retarded projects do EU money go into, how many "beneficial" companies exist purely to consume EU funding projects and their sole purpose is to pretend activity so that they get more of those projects, and then when it gets to something serious like the greek money shit or immigrant stuff, the EU is unable to respo
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15:55:27  <monsted> EU has many faults, but not many that the individual countries wouldn't have made themselves individually
15:56:14  <V453000> fair point
15:56:50  <V453000> but I guess it feels much better if you fucked up and are responsible for it than if you did nothing because of some detached government somewhere
15:58:28  <monsted> of course you can always pull out the old EU law that prevents the sale of crooked cucumbers to retail customers
15:59:38  <V453000> yes and probably hundreds of similar things
16:00:45  <monsted> but then look at the british or danish laws and you'll find a thousand others just as dumb :)
16:01:35  <V453000> you make a good point
16:02:01  <V453000> but I still feel like tolerating this shit just isn't helping
16:05:19  <monsted> someone needs to sit down and read through the entire law library and get out the red ink
16:05:51  <monsted> cut out 80% of dead and dumb law
16:06:07  <monsted> then iterate on that, cutting 80% of what remains every year.
16:06:54  <Wolf01> EU only need one law: don't be a dickhead...
16:07:14  <monsted> that would be nice
16:10:26  <Wolf01> I really hate the limits imposed to countries because "heh it's the free market, country-B should be able to sell the same stuff too, so you need to limit the production or here's your fine"
16:11:13  <Wolf01> we lost 40% of milk production this way
16:13:31  <monsted> a friend of my family is a black currant farmer. the EU put billions into polish farms who completely undermined his market and he's now pretty much screwed. fortunately, he's not far off retirement, so he's taking an EU handout for going organic and will probably just retire when that runs out.
16:15:45  <monsted> they'll pretty much pay him what he'd usually make and he can pretty much just coast for five years while the land cleans itself of the evil additives and then he can quit.
16:16:50  <V453000> exactly Wolf01 ... why not try to sell the milk as EU, no we just limit our production
16:16:51  <V453000> wtf
16:22:04  <Wolf01> they started with the wrong foot, you need first to make the people feel like a great comunity, then you can proceed to unificate the rules and make the same generic laws (legal and criminal, so a thief will get the same sentence everywhere), but leaving also the freedom of the various countries to keep some local laws (administrative ones)
16:22:33  <Wolf01> then you unificate the market
16:22:42  <monsted> it's sad when the market makes us overproduce something and then just flush it down the drain, instead of encouraging new products that could be sold/exported
16:23:34  <monsted> in general, i don't understand why we're even subsidizing something that already gets overproduced. surely, this is the wrong way round?
16:24:03  <Wolf01> they started from the market, but without a comunity feeling and keeping al the rivalry of different markets
16:24:52  <Alberth> I think you approach it from the wrong direction; you assume there is sense in politics
16:38:57  * Rubidium thinks this is the standard: people get excited about bad things, and don't care much about good things which makes sentiments go wild
16:40:40  <Rubidium> which effectively means that the "bad" things vastly overwhelm the "good" things in these debates and that's not something you should base your opinion on
16:41:45  <Wolf01> people get excited by non-sense bad things, if there were "right" bad things I could have accepted them
16:42:47  <Rubidium> see the massive hysteria about nuclear power plants, whereas coal power plants put way more radiation into the atmosphere (per kWh)
16:42:54  <Rubidium> (including accidents)
16:44:08  <Wolf01> that's for example a non-sense, we have a law which prohibits the creation of new nuclear power plants, while all around there are many, even really close to our borders
16:46:05  <Rubidium> also... one month Fukushima Exclusion Zone == Head CT scan
16:46:07  <Wolf01> I can understand the problem of nuclear wastes, but now there are some ways of reduce them and even use them again
16:47:24  <Rubidium> fun is that coal power plants just pump their nuclear waste into the air
16:47:45  <Alkel_U3> pff, coal plants. They have nothing on bananas
16:48:17  <Rubidium> but then... your nuclear dose from yourself is like 4000 times higher than living near a nuclear power plant
16:48:20  <Rubidium> so what gives?
16:49:13  <Rubidium> anyhow, that's basically the point... focusing on the feeling of danger than actual danger
16:50:35  <Wolf01> also the funny thing is that our country invest money on the nuclear program of other countries :D
16:53:27  <Rubidium> anyhow, it's UK's loss because if they get out, it would be easier for me to get (the same) training in say Finland than England
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16:59:17  <andythenorth> o/
17:00:40  <Alberth> o/
17:07:46  <Wolf01> o/
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17:23:52  <andythenorth> more FIRS “let’s play” :D
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17:33:56  <andythenorth> loads of them :O
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17:43:48  <andythenorth> hmm
17:43:54  <andythenorth> mining trucks are silly in Road Hog
17:46:00  <andythenorth> if there were road types, maybe they’d make sense
17:46:54  <greeter> hmm
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17:52:48  * andythenorth suspects mining trucks are included because the HEQS sprites exist already
17:57:16  <V453000> heyo
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18:03:23  <andythenorth> lo V453000
18:03:27  <andythenorth> also frosch123
18:04:53  <frosch123> hoin
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18:09:09  <mz-e520> ello. slightly esoteric question but... the user interface in openttd is beautiful and extremely well behaved with regards to apparently always being up-to-date (change some state in one window such as buying a new wagon, and the capacity is instantly updated in any other windows that are open and happen to be observing the train), etc
18:09:20  <mz-e520> is there any documentation outside of the code on the design?
18:09:37  <mz-e520> it's conspicuously and drastically better than almost any in-game UI i can think of
18:10:13  <mz-e520> i'm mildly fascinated by it on a professional level
18:10:20  <frosch123> openttd does strict command serialisation and execution
18:10:30  <frosch123> a button never triggers an update of the gui itself
18:10:42  <mz-e520> nice
18:10:54  <frosch123> instead a button triggers an action, which is send to the server, forwared to all clients, and the clients then notify all relevant windows
18:11:41  <mz-e520> was it always this way? even in the original proprietary version?
18:12:13  <frosch123> no, multiplayer got better over time
18:12:41  <frosch123> every now and then there is a windows that does not update correctly :)
18:12:59  <mz-e520> hehe, i'll keep an eye out
18:13:29  <mz-e520> it's a really great piece of work
18:13:43  <frosch123> anyway, all that stuff comes with a downside :)
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18:14:07  <frosch123> if your network connection is laggy, pressing a button does not give an immediate response
18:14:16  <mz-e520> right
18:14:24  <greeter> i've found that out before playing openttd over satellite
18:14:37  <frosch123> say: you can press the sell-vehicle button twice
18:14:42  <frosch123> the first one will then succeed
18:14:53  <frosch123> and the second one will spawn a "vehicle does not exist" error or similar
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18:15:03  <frosch123> maybe you are even kicked for trying something invaild :p
18:15:10  <mz-e520> hm!
18:15:48  <frosch123> but i guess most of these command fail silently and are ignored without message
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18:16:26  <frosch123> but yes, tricks like using a autoclicker to sell a vehicle multiple times do not work in ottd
18:16:48  <frosch123> eu4 is very different to ottd in that respect :p
18:17:16  <frosch123> if you manage to immitate the eu4 network protocol, you can likely cheat like hell
18:17:29  <mz-e520> hm, what's eu4?
18:17:37  <frosch123> europa universal 4
18:17:44  <frosch123> a fairly complex game
18:17:51  * mz-e520 eyes it
18:17:57  <frosch123> but it does a ton of vaildations in the gui only
18:18:16  <frosch123> there have been dozen of bugs where you can exploit something by clicking things faster than the game can process them
18:18:29  <mz-e520> heh
18:20:58  <mz-e520> i find the ottd ui a lot more aesthetically pleasing than the eu4 screenshots...
18:22:03  <frosch123> both are overwhelming if you do not know the game :)
18:22:11  <mz-e520> yep \o/
18:28:46  <Wolf01> the worse gui I found (leaving out my own games) is in wargame: european escalation
18:29:00  <Wolf01> *worst
18:29:26  <Alkel_U3> oh, you play it? :-)
18:29:32  <Wolf01> yes, sometimes
18:30:41  <Wolf01> numbers and letters printed on the screen which are the actual ui o_O
18:34:10  <Wolf01> <- that "DO882" in the top left is clickable and opens the "request units" menu
18:35:07  <Alkel_U3> i see nothing inherently wrong with that
18:35:49  <Wolf01> an ui where you can't tell the difference about an informative label and an actual menu is a bad ui
18:35:59  <Alkel_U3> it is pointed out in the first mission (a bit vaguely)
18:36:30  <Alkel_U3> it's not a jewel but it's usable imho
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18:36:44  <Wolf01> "a bit", it took 15 minutes to me to find it, and a google search
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18:37:18  <Nadejde> Hi guys!
18:37:32  <greeter> greetings Nadejde
18:37:33  <Wolf01> the man of war: allied assault one is really more understandable
18:37:46  <Wolf01> *men
18:37:49  <Nadejde> Could you help me out with a question regarding dedicated servers and console?
18:37:58  <Wolf01> a*assault squad
18:38:09  <V453000> ass quad?
18:38:15  <greeter> maybe. ask away
18:38:40  <Nadejde> is it actually possible to download a scenario from bananas and launch a game with that scenario from the console?
18:39:16  <Nadejde> from the wiki it seems like that should be possible. but if i use the content commands the newgrf files don't seem to get downloaded
18:39:18  <greeter> just when i think i'm learning a lot, someone asks a question i don't know the answer to :-S
18:39:25  <Nadejde> :))
18:39:59  <Nadejde> and all you get is tar files have no ideea how to actually use the load command to load it and get it running...
18:41:09  <Nadejde> I guess I'll just post in the forums:) but if the answer was a straight no might saved everyones time:)
18:43:07  <supermop_> wasted 2 hours of time installing a carpet for a client
18:44:02  <supermop_> not sure why they would want to pay their design firm for that labor instead of tthe relvant tradesman, or even just a random non-union handyman
18:44:20  <greeter> ouch. what is your trade anyway?
18:44:31  <Alkel_U3> the answer seems to be yes (under file handling commands)
18:44:57  <Alkel_U3> as for launching the scenario, I think it's the same as loading a save - "load"
18:45:13  <Alkel_U3> Nadejde: ^
18:45:25  <Nadejde> thank you. i tryied all that
18:45:51  <Nadejde> the content commands work fine (event though the related newgrf files don't seem to download)
18:46:14  <Nadejde> however browsing to the scenario folder doesn't list anything
18:47:18  <Nadejde> if i navigate to downloaded_content/scenarios where i know the tar file is and do ls nothing is displayed
18:47:19  <Alkel_U3> were you looking in content_download?
18:47:27  <Alkel_U3> ok
18:48:21  <Nadejde> looked both in content_download and in plain scenarios (with the UI I would just go into Scenarios and they would be listed there even though theyre not actually in that folder....)
18:49:22  <Nadejde> doing a content update > content state shows the scenario as installed though...
18:49:30  <supermop_> my 'trade' is architect, so no union, and no trade pay
18:49:48  <supermop_> but my boss gets to make a big markup on my time on site
18:50:30  <supermop_> as technically that 2 hours counts as 2 hours of the professional design services of a design firm
18:51:03  <andythenorth> £90 / hour?
18:59:20  <Alkel_U3> Nadejde: yeah, the tar is there, but it doesn't show in the GUI, too
18:59:29  <Alkel_U3> strange
19:00:06  <supermop_> andythenorth: ha actually this job wasn't originally one of my projects so i don't know our terms for ongoing additional billable hours with them
19:00:45  <supermop_> but in general such a service could easily get as high as 0/hr with firms in NYC
19:01:21  <supermop_> cheaper than hiring your lawyers or McKinsey consultants to lay carpet at least
19:01:55  <andythenorth> figures
19:03:40  <Alkel_U3> oh, wait, my bad. It is in the gui
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19:06:01  <Nadejde> yeah. you can see the tar file in the gui
19:06:15  <Nadejde> but the scenarios show in openttd/scenarios directly
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19:06:28  <Nadejde> if you go through the load scenario gui. even though that folder is actually open
19:06:31  <Nadejde> empty
19:07:09  <Nadejde> Well I've posted the question to the forums also:
19:07:26  <Nadejde> just wanted to check here first in case it was really simple and I was beeing stupid :)
19:07:27  <Alkel_U3> hm, the unpacked scn file doesn't show for me in the console, either
19:08:20  <Nadejde> yup tried that also. unpacking the tar and checking out if i can load the .scn file directly
19:09:26  <Alkel_U3> I kinda sorta suspect that might be a bug
19:10:22  <Alkel_U3> or unimplemented feature
19:10:34  <Nadejde> sounds more like an unimplemented feature to be honest:)
19:10:56  <Nadejde> I't fine if it just cant be done. At least I know and I wont waste my time
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19:11:16  <Nadejde> Question is is there any way of launching a scenario through the console at all:)
19:11:31  <Nadejde> never mind the downloading of content. I'll just copy that myself
19:11:51  <FLHerne> Nadejde: You could just rename it to .sav, we know those work
19:12:16  <FLHerne> (Scenarios are savegames, and v.v.)
19:12:35  <Nadejde> hmm. If i load a scenario on my desktop and gen save it straight out, copy that over to the server and load it?
19:12:49  <Alkel_U3> at that point, it will be less hassle to jst launch openttd -D -g file.scn
19:13:07  <Nadejde> tried that also!
19:13:33  <Alkel_U3> well, mabe you should have started with what you tried :-)
19:13:44  <Nadejde> ERROR: Game Load Failed?NewGRF mismatch
19:14:11  <Nadejde> yeah. this goes back to the fact the the NewGRF don't seem to be downloaded i guess...
19:15:01  <Nadejde>  Loading game failed, so a new (random) game will be started! and then the ERROR about NewGRF mismatch after it generates a random game
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19:15:12  <supermop_> hmm - need to go somewhere on long island railroad.. if i take the subway all the way out to end of line and then catch the train i save  compared to taking the train all the way from penn station in the city
19:15:16  <Nadejde> hmm let me try to use a savegame see if that works
19:16:40  <Alkel_U3> I'm kinda affraid it's gonna need manual babysiting :/
19:17:03  <Alkel_U3> with the required grfs
19:18:46  <Nadejde> yeah same error dbg: [net] Loading game failed, so a new (random) game will be started!
19:19:04  <Nadejde> ill try copying the grfs over also
19:19:48  <Nadejde> why would you even need grfs for a dedicated server anyway?
19:20:13  <Alkel_U3> it's not only about the graphics
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19:21:12  <Alkel_U3> they change the game and the server needs to know how, as well as any other client
19:21:35  <Nadejde> right! makes sense
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19:22:29  <Nadejde> still fails even after copying all the newgrfs over...
19:23:01  <Nadejde> hmm or not...
19:26:25  <Nadejde> ha it's working!
19:26:26  <Nadejde>
19:26:28  <Nadejde> excelent
19:26:39  <Nadejde> cheers for your help!
19:26:45  <andythenorth> hmmm
19:27:09  <andythenorth> Road Hog tram generations are 48t-72, and increase in size in proportion to capacity
19:27:43  <andythenorth> Road Hog on-highway trucks are 25t-40t, and are roughly the same size, but newer models look more boss
19:27:53  <andythenorth> Road Hog off-highway trucks are just a mess
19:28:34  <andythenorth> 50t-120t, size varies according to no obvious rationale
19:30:16  <andythenorth>
19:30:27  <andythenorth> 50t, 85t, 120t
19:31:03  <andythenorth> physically, the sprites are not much bigger than equivalent highway trucks with 50% of the capacity
19:31:17  * andythenorth wonders, just delete them?
19:32:46  <supermop_> andythenorth: the extra space is being taken up by big tires and springs?
19:33:55  <andythenorth> maybe
19:34:02  <andythenorth> again, realism is the problem here
19:34:10  <andythenorth> this is a brit-ish roster
19:34:19  <V453000> gg R
19:34:25  <andythenorth> yeah
19:34:45  <andythenorth> UK doesn’t have many big off-highway trucks
19:34:50  <andythenorth> delete, or fake?
19:35:23  <frosch123> fake :)
19:35:45  <andythenorth> winning answer
19:35:50  <frosch123> mabye do only 50t, 70t and 90t though
19:35:56  <andythenorth> agreed
19:35:59  <frosch123> 120 is kind of a lot
19:36:02  <andythenorth> yup
19:36:15  <frosch123> in most cases i use the short trams in heqs
19:36:34  <frosch123> or medium?
19:36:37  <frosch123> well, those around 90 tons
19:36:38  <andythenorth> 120t is train sized (or at least a narrow gauge train in Iron Horse) :P
19:37:01  <andythenorth> if there were road types, bigger might make more sense, have to build segregated routes :P
19:38:43  <andythenorth> next problem, nearly all trucks (except mail) are articulated in Iron Horse
19:39:00  <andythenorth> no nonsense where you upgrade vehicles, but can’t route to some station on the route
19:39:06  <frosch123> i prefer drive-though stops
19:39:18  <frosch123> +r
19:39:32  <V453000> like everybody :P
19:39:33  <andythenorth> due to realism, the big mining trucks could be non-articulated :P
19:39:39  <andythenorth> but that breaks the convention
19:39:43  <frosch123> the rotating vehicles in drive-in stops have always been weird
19:40:08  <andythenorth> the single unit mining truck sprites would look best though
19:40:14  <andythenorth> and are already drawn for HEQS
19:40:17  <andythenorth> so eh? :P
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19:46:15  <supermop_> andythenorth: the Kilimanjaro mining truck turning around to park at a dead-end stop looks hilarious
19:46:25  <andythenorth> you think? :D
19:46:57  <supermop_> apparently that think has the turning radius of a forklift
19:47:45  <andythenorth> it flips on the spot :)
19:48:02  <andythenorth> I could make them arbitrarily articulated to force drive-through roadstops only
19:48:05  <andythenorth> is that daft?
19:48:12  <andythenorth> (invisible vehicle)
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19:48:41  * andythenorth considers a newgrf flag :P
19:49:21  * frosch123 assigns FS#6475 to andy
19:49:23  <andythenorth> that kilimanjaro is a good sprite
19:49:33  <andythenorth> should be used again
19:50:33  <andythenorth> 6475 is a bit wtf :P
19:51:34  <frosch123> is there a patch that adds "usable roadstops" to the purchase list info?
19:51:42  <frosch123> in addition to "usable airports"?
19:54:08  <andythenorth> interesting point
19:54:11  <FLHerne> p
19:54:22  <FLHerne> [ignore]
19:54:32  <andythenorth> can we just delete drive-in stops?
19:54:48  <andythenorth> they’re a PITA, with no upside
19:55:13  <Alkel_U3> whaat? I use them
19:55:15  <FLHerne> They're useful as a buffer for dealing with delayed vehicles
19:55:45  <andythenorth> I use them, but only for buses in town, and only for the look of them
19:55:59  <FLHerne> If you have long timetabled waits in drive-through stops, vehicles come up behind and form queues and then gum up the entire road network
19:56:05  <andythenorth> it’s been asserted that drive-through stops have higher throughput
19:56:11  <Alkel_U3> the're useful in cramped spaces or when I want to guarantee long distance coaches in a bus terminal, for example
19:56:15  <FLHerne> (because the RV pathfinder isn't good at avoiding queues)
19:56:45  <FLHerne> Drive-in stops have lower throughput, but random-access to bays
19:57:17  <supermop_> andythenorth: they are the only way for RVs to lay-up at the moment
19:57:26  <andythenorth> depot?
19:57:41  <supermop_> cant timetable wait in depot
19:58:00  <andythenorth> hmm, you say things where I know the words, but not what you mean ;)
19:58:04  <andythenorth> ‘timetable’?
19:58:23  <supermop_> so out of order RVs will not pass each other in depots or drive through stops
19:58:42  <supermop_> also what FLHerne said
19:59:01  <supermop_> sorry, what Alkel_U3 said
19:59:41  <supermop_> bus waits at station until following bus arrives, then departs
20:00:38  <supermop_> ensuring one bus always loading, better ratings, and a chance for a late running vehicle to catch up and pass an on-time vehicle that is ahead of it but should be behind
20:01:57  <supermop_> this could be avoided if late running RVs didn't just ride the ass of the RV in front and never drive around them to enter drive-through from other side
20:03:23  <andythenorth> ha ha I found an old patch I made
20:03:24  <andythenorth>
20:03:37  <Alkel_U3> Not that I haven't been doing that, but now that you talk about it it reminded me of A-Train. It was fun scheduling all the trains to go without a collision :-)
20:03:46  <FLHerne> Would help if overtaking worked in drive-throughs, too
20:04:09  <andythenorth> hmm
20:04:15  <andythenorth>
20:04:27  <andythenorth> ^ the highway truck is 40t, is the mining truck plausibly 90t?
20:05:07  <sim-al2> The mining truck almost certainly weightes more empty just because it's tougher
20:05:24  <sim-al2> But the bed is much larger too
20:06:10  <sim-al2> It wouldn't be too unusual for a heavy minerals to be loaded only partially in a truck to avoid being overloaded
20:10:14  <supermop_> carry less iron ore than coal for example
20:10:27  <supermop_> rather other way around
20:10:34  <sim-al2> Same weight, but less volume
20:10:40  <supermop_> yeah
20:11:08  <sim-al2> On TTD scale, the small mining truck looks fine
20:12:24  <andythenorth> so should I make it articulated to ban it from drive-in stops?
20:12:30  <andythenorth> the 2 previous generations are articulated
20:13:28  <frosch123> i don't think you need to worry about that
20:13:43  <frosch123> if the players want to use it in drive-in stops, just let them
20:14:47  <andythenorth> fool to a slavish consistency?
20:19:55  <andythenorth> think this could carry 50t?
20:20:01  <andythenorth> probably implausible :P
20:20:32  <sim-al2> Yeah, that's probably not going to work :p
20:30:45  <frosch123> it's weird, 99.9% of pictures with vehicles with two front-axles i have seen were from andy
20:31:03  <frosch123> quite an uk think apparently
20:31:54  <frosch123> anyway, is that thing running on steam?
20:32:01  <andythenorth> yup
20:32:05  <andythenorth> they go fast too
20:33:17  <andythenorth>
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20:40:29  <andythenorth> can I have a vehicle which is 2 trucks in a convoy? o_O
20:40:33  <andythenorth> cheating :P
20:40:46  <andythenorth> we have multi-unit train engines
20:42:13  <frosch123> all old-timer conventions i have been to had one-cylinder combustion engines
20:42:29  <frosch123> i never encountered steam trucks like that
20:43:24  <andythenorth> they were mostly UK and export to commonwealth countries
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20:52:10  <Wolf01> meh I have too many games.. and I just purchased another humble bundle :|
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20:53:00  <frosch123> Wolf01: maybe focus on lego then :)
20:53:58  <Wolf01> yes I already have decided what I want to purchase in the next 2 months
20:54:37  <frosch123> why does that not surprise me? :p
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21:07:28  <Wolf01> andythenorth, I think a coupling system in the RV depot like simutrans one could really be what you want, also it saves some of your work because you can draw a trailer once and couple it to all the (compatible) tractors :D
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21:30:50  <andythenorth> Wolf01: that was considered once
21:30:53  <andythenorth> RV-wagons
21:30:55  <andythenorth> there was a spec
21:31:20  <andythenorth> you only need one tractor unit per generation that way
21:31:27  <andythenorth> but eh, faff :P
21:31:44  <andythenorth> also bedtime
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