Log for #openttd on 8th June 2016:
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07:51:25  <Wolf01> o/
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11:29:50  <Samu> hi
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12:13:05  <Samu> 123
12:13:07  <Samu> - ship vs aircraft vs road vehicles vs trains
12:14:14  <Samu> NoCAB doing trains isn't as spectacular as i thought though
12:14:35  <Samu> perhaps i could use trAIns or some other
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12:57:06  <Samu> what's the best road vehicle AI?
12:57:22  <Samu> I should try a different kind of competition
12:57:47  <Samu> a competition to find the best of each transport type
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13:15:02  <Alkel_U3> last time I checked - for competition I'd guess Rondje om de Kerk :-)
13:15:33  <jaenster> hmm.. i dont know.. MPS bus?
13:16:13  <Alkel_U3> although I have no idea if AI developement succeeded its nefarious ways to make profit
13:16:30  <Alkel_U3> (it's 5 yrs old)
13:17:04  <greeter> lol
13:19:58  <jaenster> rondtje om de kerk
13:20:03  <jaenster> its still a epic name for a AI
13:20:21  <greeter> sounds quite foreign, at least to me
13:20:30  <jaenster> Its dutch, which i speak
13:20:43  <greeter> i thought it sounded south african, which has a similar language
13:20:53  <jaenster> we had a problem here that the real people from the trains didnt want to get all the time the same route
13:21:03  <greeter> hmm?
13:21:17  <jaenster> They traindrivers in the netherlands drive all the time the same route
13:21:19  <jaenster> they get bored
13:21:35  <greeter> oh i see. yeah, i imagine so. train driving isn't exactly the most exciting job at the best of times
13:21:51  <jaenster> that problem is called "Rondtje om de kerk", wich litterly means "Round around the church"
13:21:58  <greeter> lol i see
13:22:10  <jaenster> so.. the AI is called after that problem ^^
13:22:20  <supermop_> yo
13:22:30  <greeter> greetings supermop_
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13:26:43  <supermop_> how are things going here
13:26:53  <greeter> so far so good. you?
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13:31:09  <Samu> darn, BorkAI has a bad starting on huge maps
13:31:22  <Islacrusez> o/
13:31:44  <Samu> it's "caching" every possible connection
13:32:00  <Samu> idles way too long
13:35:57  <Samu> oh, it started 6 months later
13:36:09  <Samu> with 250k ops
13:37:31  <Samu> pff, i can't test it like this :(
13:37:48  <Samu> better test solo AIs
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13:43:16  <Samu> Wormnest: hi, do you know what is the best road vehicle AI?
13:44:22  <Wormnest> Samu: It probably depends on what you call best and under what conditions you do the test
13:44:45  <Wormnest> But I would guess that Terron, RoadRunner and maybe also NoCAB do pretty well
13:44:56  <Samu> one that gets most money over 100 years
13:45:04  <Samu> oki
13:45:21  <Samu> tell me 8 AIs, will be testing them solo
13:45:30  <Samu> 8 that use road vehicles
13:45:49  <Samu> terron, roadrunner, NoCAB
13:46:16  <Wormnest> Hm I never did look at roadvehicle performance too close
13:46:37  <jaenster> With paxdest its more eyecandy
13:46:50  <Wormnest> RobotAI2 does ok too but I dont think its on bananas
13:47:07  <Samu> I don't know of that one :o
13:47:17  <Samu> yeah, I prefer bananas ais
13:47:36  <jaenster> what is banana?
13:47:42  <Wormnest> OtVI is ok too
13:47:54  <Wormnest> bananas is the online content
13:48:02  <supermop_> need to sneal out of office for some coffe
13:48:03  <supermop_> e
13:48:20  <Samu> hmm Otvi, not sure how to configure that one
13:48:35  <Samu> but will try something
13:48:55  <Wormnest> ThereÂŽs nothing you can configure there lol
13:49:12  <Samu> yeah, but i wanted to restrict to road vehicles only
13:50:01  <Samu> disable road vehicles for AI or max trains, ships, air to 0?
13:50:02  <Wormnest> Maybe also Synaptic, aiai, admiral
13:50:06  <Samu> oops, not road vehicles
13:50:38  <Wormnest> Yeah set max to 0 for the others and hope they donÂŽt protest by stopping themselves
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13:53:28  <Samu> configuring 8 openttd configs with notepad++ is nice
13:53:49  <Samu> it replaces for all opened documents
13:55:25  <Samu> terron, roadrunner, nocab, otvi, synaptic, aiai, admiral
13:55:25  <Wormnest> IÂŽm using it too for AI development
13:55:59  <Samu> 7, need 1 more, I will try MogulAI, from my usual testings, he's quite fast and maxing out 5000 vehicles
13:56:50  <Wormnest> Ofcourse the nocab version I fixed is less likely to cause problems than the version on bananas
13:57:01  <Wormnest> Although cars should probably be ok
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13:59:05  <Samu> synaptic is SysTrans, right?
13:59:12  <Samu> oops, SynTrans
14:01:57  <Wormnest> yes
14:14:14  <Samu> i can't configure Syntrans parameters, seems bugged
14:14:47  <Samu> SynTrans = log_level=3,start_date=1
14:15:01  <Samu> there is no log level setting
14:15:09  <Samu> there's a max distance for route
14:15:18  <Samu> but can't seem to change it
14:16:18  <Wormnest> distance it seems canÂŽt be changed in game
14:16:39  <Wormnest> maybe it checks log level only once in a while
14:18:34  <Samu> i'm launcing the 8 servers at the same time
14:23:21  <Samu> oh, right, they're 1.6.1-RC1 servers
14:23:24  <Samu>
14:25:40  <Samu> exact same map seed for all
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14:27:04  <supermop_> coffee shop out of v60 filters
14:27:58  <Samu> eh... syntrans is trying to build rail t.t
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14:29:13  <Wolf01> o/
14:29:17  <Alberth> hi hi
14:29:33  <Samu> poor syntrans
14:29:46  <Samu> must recheck him
14:30:04  <Alkel_U3> that's what I like about my good old moka pot - no fancy filters, (almost) no maintenance
14:30:57  <Alkel_U3> and th rate at which is practical to brew coffee keeps me from heavily overdosing :P
14:32:05  <Wormnest> SynTrans always starts with trying to build a few train lines and after that ignores them
14:33:34  <Samu> just restarted him with different game settings, let's see
14:34:23  <Wormnest> I should have another look at SynTrans sometime I already fixed a crash in it which I should post sometime
14:34:43  <Samu> aha, he started road vehicles now
14:34:52  <Samu> but he's a year late
14:35:10  <Samu> think i could restart the whole servers again, brb
14:35:37  <Wormnest> Well I saw it once wait 40 years trying to find a path for a train route before realising it couldnÂŽt find a path
14:38:47  <Wolf01> how is possible to not find a path? it should have built a station in the worst location possible (eg. the exit against an industry or another unmovable object)
14:47:29  <Wormnest> I havenÂŽt looked at itÂŽs pathfinding code maybe other aiÂŽs were faster building something where it wanted to
14:48:45  <Samu> I'll be doing these tests for aircraft, ships and trains as well, but not today
14:53:42  <Wormnest> Nice, although thereÂŽs a lot of factors that can influence the results
15:01:21  <Samu> impressive start for RoadRunner, but NoCAB is about to take him in profit real soon
15:01:47  <Samu> NoCAB took 4 months to build first route
15:02:16  <Samu> they both start with buses
15:02:20  <Samu> interesting
15:03:22  <Samu> I see mogul doesn't actually lead
15:03:35  <Samu> doesn't use buses at all
15:03:43  <Samu> everything is coal
15:04:03  <Samu> pass > coal, it's confirmed
15:05:24  <Samu> I wonder if the "realistic" acceleration model is affecting this outcome
15:05:50  <Samu> meh, don't care for now
15:08:31  <Samu> steepness 10% for road vehicles, on all servers
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15:19:18  <Samu> roadrunner is surprising me
15:19:19  <Wormnest> Yea NoCAB is kinda slow to start since itÂŽs computing proftability of a lot of connections
15:19:39  <Samu> roadrunner still leads, terron is now coming ahead of nocab
15:19:46  <Samu> 1st roadrunner, 2nd terron, 3rd nocab
15:20:23  <Samu> actually, 3rd place for otvi, 4th for nocab, nearly tied
15:20:59  <Samu> last place syntrans, for now
15:21:33  <Wormnest> What year did you start
15:21:44  <Samu> 1950
15:22:01  <Samu> they're all doing great
15:22:16  <Samu> profiting, and massing vehicles
15:22:28  <Wormnest> IÂŽve noticed that some aiÂŽs do better at an early start year than others
15:22:48  <Wormnest> but thatÂŽs probably more noticeable if all vehicle types are available
15:22:48  <Samu> they're all over 200 road vehicles
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15:24:15  <Samu> i see AIAI and Mogul only compete with trucks, no buses
15:24:16  <Wormnest> WhatÂŽs also interesting to see how aiÂŽs handle reaching the max allowed number of vehicles
15:24:42  <Wormnest> Some hardly do anything in that case instead of trying to opmtimise things
15:25:16  <Samu> strange, AIAI can build buses
15:25:22  <Samu> it's on his settings
15:25:29  <Samu> unless it's just a fake setting?
15:25:38  <Wormnest> Maybe it thinkÂŽs at that time trucks are more profitable
15:26:13  <Samu> ah, he has only 3 routes with buses, my bad, sorry
15:26:34  <Samu> Mogul seems to be the only one doing pure industries
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15:29:48  <Samu> mogul = pure industries, syntrans = pure buses
15:29:53  <Samu> it seems
15:30:19  <Samu> i'm not too familiar with syntrans, need to test this ai more often
15:32:16  <Wormnest> Yea in the game I have SynTrans only has buses too
15:33:16  <Samu> roadrunner is the first over 500 rvs
15:33:29  <Samu> not even 4 years into the game
15:34:14  <Samu> the limit is 5000
15:38:08  <supermop_> what if cargo sprites were separate from vehicle sets
15:39:20  <supermop_> V453000: like instead of compositing within your grf, the cargo/industry set provided sprites of unitized amounts of cargo
15:40:27  <Alberth> what if you then need 2.5 cargo sprites?
15:40:28  <supermop_> and you put those pallets of bricks or whatever onto your flatbeds
15:41:00  <supermop_> Alberth: its not well suited to artistes making vehicles to different scales
15:41:31  <Alberth> I thought so :)
15:41:43  <supermop_> in fact it might be a better idea for a completely different game
15:41:59  <supermop_> but its a fun thought experiment for me
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15:42:45  <supermop_> you'd have to then rework vehicles to have properties like, can hold 10 pallets, 20, or 40 etc
15:43:11  <supermop_> and a precast concrete pipe is 2 pallets, a huge transformer is 20 etc
15:43:17  <Gja> hej
15:43:18  <supermop_> a container is 40
15:44:07  <supermop_> then standardize the value of a pallet, which to be honest hasn't yet completely happened in the real world
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15:44:22  <Alberth> RW is flawed :p
15:44:44  <Samu> looking at CPU Time, the most CPU intensive is ... not surprisingly... NoCAB
15:44:51  <Alberth> I wonder what's left for the wagon designer then
15:45:27  <Alberth> mostly just the width of the wagon?
15:45:36  <Samu> least CPU intensive is AdmiralAI
15:46:03  <Samu> and he's not in last place even
15:46:15  <Samu> kinda neat
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15:48:05  <Wormnest> NoCAB is the one most like a real company doing a lot of profitability computations
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15:53:08  <Samu> roadrunner, first over 1000 rvs
15:53:45  <Samu> terron is attempting to beat roadrunner in profits
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16:01:57  <Samu> terron is the new leader in profits :)
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16:06:22  <Samu> - first 6 years
16:06:31  <Samu> I notice NoCAB server is being delayed
16:06:41  <Samu> too cpu intensive t.t
16:07:49  <Samu> oops, i've hidden the finances of 2 AIs lol
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16:29:34  <Samu> damn it's hard to point a flaw in any of them
16:29:43  <Samu> they're doing really well
16:31:53  <Samu> OtviAI is the first with over 2000 rvs
16:33:00  <Alberth> not enough competition :p
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16:37:54  <Samu> OtviAi is now also the first in profits
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16:42:42  <Samu> strange that roadrunner lost its boosting momentum
16:43:08  <Samu> it's still building new routes, but that initial boom lost its strength
16:44:38  <Samu> some AIs are stagnating in profits, while those that were behind are still booming
16:45:15  <Samu> AdmiralAI, Mogul, AIAI are probably going to compete in the first 4 it seems
16:46:05  <Samu> nocab, terron, roadrunner have slowed down in profits... strange
16:47:00  <Samu> i have to see what's happening with nocab, he's actually starting to decrease profits
16:48:27  <Samu> ah, the script died unexpectedly
16:48:31  <Samu> poor nocab
16:49:28  <Samu> probably that dreaded saving took too long
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16:50:55  <Samu> last place for NoCAB
17:02:57  <Samu> otvi is first to 5000 rvs
17:03:55  <Samu>
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17:04:51  <Samu> in 10 years + 1 month, 5000 road vehicles, that is crazy
17:09:58  <Wormnest> If you had used my fixed version of nocab it wouldnÂŽt have crashed
17:11:06  <Samu> will you upload it to banana servers?
17:12:11  <Wormnest> Not sure, maybe I should
17:12:39  <Wormnest> I still got some new local fixes I have to commit
17:17:40  <Samu> heh, who's going to be 2nd with 5000? Mogul vs Admiral
17:17:47  <Samu> they're hurrying it up
17:20:30  <Samu> oh, mogul server is behind a few months
17:20:36  <Samu> have to take that into account
17:20:59  <Wormnest> But amount of vehicles doesnÂŽt have to say much about how well they do
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17:21:57  <Samu> I know, that's why I like run these tests for 100 years
17:23:59  <Samu> ever since otvi reached 5000 cap, its server became slow, really slow
17:24:16  <Samu> it was running well
17:24:22  <Samu> now it's sluggish
17:24:42  <Samu> it doesn't seem to handle that cap too well
17:25:56  <Samu> 2nd to 5000, Mogul
17:26:06  <Samu> even with the few months delay
17:27:13  <Samu> syntrans just got a bankrupt warning
17:27:23  <Samu> he's always working too close to the loan limit
17:32:18  <Wormnest> If my memory is right it often replaces a whole lot of vehicles all at once
17:33:29  <Samu> yes, he sold about 60 now, and filled them again
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17:33:44  <Samu> it became faster during that transition, now it's sluggish again
17:34:05  <Samu> 3rd to 5000, Admiral
17:34:25  <Samu> AIAI is also close
17:35:18  <Samu> May 1962 - 5000 rvs for AdmiralAI
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17:35:29  <Samu> AIAI server is also delayed, let's see
17:36:20  <Samu> Jun 1961 - 5000 rvs for MogulAI
17:36:30  <Samu> Jan 1960 - 5000 rvs for Otvi
17:37:06  <Samu> another bankrupt warning for syntrans... he's really risking it
17:37:45  <Samu> it's not like he doesn't have money, he got 600k profit every 3 month
17:37:56  <Samu> but he works so close to the limit...
17:38:03  <Samu> it's always triggering it
17:38:17  <Wormnest> heÂŽs not the only one IÂŽve seen doing that
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17:56:53  <Samu> bankrupt
17:56:59  <Samu> poor syntrans
17:57:14  <Samu> 7th place
17:57:32  <frosch123> evening mammals and gastropods
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18:01:49  <Samu> hi
18:05:47  <Samu> i will submit the savegames where he bankrupts but loading its AI crashes and won't trigger the bankrupt anymore
18:10:04  <Samu>
18:10:04  <supermop_> hmm the deck i designed to cost ,000 will cost ,000-,000 according to contractor submitting a bid
18:10:55  <supermop_> that seems like a lot for a wood platform to stand on and grill on
18:12:40  <Wormnest> I think I have a fix locally for the savegame crash of SynTrans
18:16:14  <Samu> he didn't crash, it bankrupted
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18:16:32  <Samu> oh, sorry, u right lol
18:16:41  <Samu> wasn't paying attention
18:16:49  <Wormnest> hehe that happens
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18:17:25  <Samu> 4th to 5000, AIAI
18:17:37  <Samu> May 1964
18:18:31  <Samu> I'm only testing 6 now :(
18:18:47  <Samu> roadrunner and terron are too far away from getting to 5000
18:19:32  <Samu> Otvi still leads in profits, though its server became too slow now
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18:20:02  <Samu> it's already delayed by 3 years in comparison to the one further ahead
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18:21:04  <Samu> admiralai, for what it does, surprises me, in terms of cpu usage
18:21:09  <Samu> it's quite low
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18:22:38  <Samu> terron is also low in cpu usage, but he's now last place
18:22:43  <Samu> last in profits
18:22:57  <Samu> i dont understand what's happened to terron
18:23:36  <Samu> he seems too careful about his vehicles
18:23:55  <Samu> always in the range of 1600-1800 vehicles, profit has stagnated
18:24:06  <Samu> maybe that's how he works
18:25:45  <Samu> "road expansion complete!"
18:25:53  <Samu> heh, what does that mean? no more work?
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18:40:42  <andythenorth> o/
18:43:56  <andythenorth> blueprint mode
18:44:00  <andythenorth> what a crap suggestion
18:45:18  <andythenorth> 50% of the gameplay revolves around not gridlocking your network whilst changing junctions :P
18:45:34  <andythenorth> “the same could have been said about signals and pathfinders andythenorth”
18:46:49  <Wolf01> o/
18:56:46  <V453000> 0.13 hype?
18:56:50  <Wolf01> I can't understand how steam updates works: lately it seem that downloads to 50%, stops and schedule the restart 1 minute after; if I set a download limit and the time when it must be active, it doesn't even work, if it is active it stays active even outside the time and if it's not active it stays not active when in the time; if it's limited, the speed doesn't match the limit, if I set the
18:56:50  <Wolf01> limit to 100kbps it downloads say 400kb at 150kbps and then drops to 0 for 10 seconds :|
18:56:53  <Wolf01> hype
18:58:06  <Wolf01> I think steam should really consider to use the torrent protocol like the blizzard updater
19:01:15  <Samu> torrent is bad
19:01:28  <Samu> only good in theory
19:02:25  <Samu> or until ISPs stop capping connections
19:06:48  <Wolf01> andythenorth, the new bricklink is online :D
19:07:33  <Samu> i hated when blizzard started doing torrent transfers when I had a monthly cap of 100 MB or some sort
19:07:46  <Samu> 1000 MB
19:07:50  <Samu> typo
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19:08:25  <Samu> past 1000 MB download, connection speeds plummeted
19:08:50  <Samu> thx to blizzard torrents which I wasn't aware at first
19:09:06  <Wolf01> I don't think it would have changed with a standard download
19:10:49  <Samu> it was uploading to others....
19:11:08  <Samu> how could a company like blizzard resort to such tactics, aren't they rich enough? ...
19:11:41  <Samu> using my bandwidth to server their other customers... meh
19:11:44  <Samu> serve*
19:12:14  <Alkel_U3> iirc that used to be an issue with skype, too
19:14:45  <Wolf01> the only issue I had with skype was the use of the port 80 by default
19:19:26  <andythenorth> Wolf01: ‘shiny'
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20:08:23  <Samu> roadrunner is slowly building up to 5000 rvs
20:08:45  <Samu> currently at 4600
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20:34:07  <Samu> 5000
20:36:02  <Samu> 5th to 5000, roadrunner, Jul 1974
20:36:19  <Samu> now terron... only at 2000
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20:50:35  <Samu> faster trucks are showing up, :)
20:50:56  <Samu> it may change the leaderboard, we'll see
20:54:04  <Samu> roadrunner is again leading, but it has a 9 year advantage, otvi server is really struggling :(
20:54:15  <Samu> leading in profits
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21:04:40  <Samu> I see a change in the leaderboard, interesting
21:04:58  <Samu> admiral ai is renewing all his vehicles with faster models
21:05:14  <Samu> roadrunner also seems to be doing the same, but in a slower manner
21:05:49  <Samu> terron is always up-to-date, no single vehicle is old
21:06:41  <Samu> otvi, unfortunately is delayed, time is passing slow for its server
21:07:01  <Samu> still using the previous models
21:10:34  <Samu> mogul is a strange one, his profit graph differs from everone else, it's peaky
21:10:59  <Samu> his server is also being delayed somewhat
21:11:10  <Samu> akin to otvi, but not as severe
21:14:34  <Samu> and then there's aiai, with models over 24 years old
21:14:59  <Samu> he only seems to upgrade them to the newer models, not renew them~
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21:23:14  <Wormnest> My own wormai could use some improvements in that area too
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21:38:33  <Samu>
21:38:49  <Samu> look at mogul profit, it's always like that, with those peaks
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21:52:00  <Wormnest> IÂŽve seen same behavior with other aiÂŽs too sometimes
21:53:27  <Samu> i wish i could fit more information on the screen
21:53:45  <Samu> gonna try virtual super resolution thingy
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21:56:18  <Samu> my eyes
21:56:33  <Samu> everything so small now, but at least I can open up some more windows
21:56:47  <Rubidium> probably a scheme for something, e.g. winning the high score or preventing bankruptcy (=4x negative bank balance at start of quarter), so not spending money for one quarter prevents it (but it's not needed if the bank balance is high enough)
22:13:32  <Samu> windows 10 screenshot feature fails... doesn't detect the real virtual res
22:17:58  <Samu> bandicam for the rescue
22:18:46  <Samu> im also surprised imgur accepts images this big
22:25:04  <Samu> from this perpsective, it looks like Mogul is in last place
22:25:14  <Samu> least profits
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22:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> bankrupcy is weird, because it includes the maintenance costs deducted at start of the month, so even if you're positive the whole month, you could go bankrupt
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22:42:31  <Samu> yeah, maybe it could be changed, to perhaps, check in mid of a month
22:43:11  <Samu> or the last day of the month
22:51:31  <supermop_> patch to add dynamic credit scoring to the game?
22:55:21  <ST2> you can be with negative balance almost all year, less the days that amount is checked, quarterly
22:55:32  <ST2> simple as that ^^
22:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the problem with that is if you always spend as much cash as you can into building infrastructure, the monthly payments will kill you, even though they make only a tiny fraction of what you earn
22:56:42  <ST2> someone already suggested about admin port updates (including those checks) being done monthly, instead of quarterly
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22:57:13  <ST2> and a patch was submitted
22:57:33  <ST2> we dnt use it because of admin port compatibility
22:59:39  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: you saying bank balance is only checked after all the month "discounts/expenses, that you dnt have idea to know in advance?
22:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:59:59  <ST2> ah :)
23:00:07  <ST2> it's a pain, yeah :S
23:00:49  <ST2> when I play, I only worry to have a fat bank balance on the quarters change
23:01:06  <ST2> and spend the rest of the days
23:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and i never care for the date
23:01:34  <ST2> hehe
23:01:40  <ST2> requires practice, yes ^^
23:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's useless...
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23:02:27  <Samu> earlier today, syntrans bankrupted with 2700 vehicles
23:02:28  <ST2> how the game works, right?!
23:02:38  <Eddi|zuHause> we can change how the game works.
23:02:43  <Samu> a fat profit of 600k
23:02:45  <ST2> you only adjust your play habits :P
23:03:05  <ST2> yeah, Eddi, someone already tried
23:03:13  <Eddi|zuHause> there are situations where you do that, and there are situations where you don't.
23:03:56  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i should attack france, but they joined a coalition. and all the other options are not ready yet :/
23:04:30  <ST2> apply a patch to it, and police gets disabled ^^
23:05:15  <Samu> maybe i should look for the bankrupcy check in the code
23:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is not the coalition, but that nobody of my allies wants to join
23:05:47  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: I'll guess you're not talking about ttd ^^
23:06:01  <ST2> Samu: it's quarterly
23:06:03  <Eddi|zuHause> no, why would i :p
23:06:27  <ST2> Eddi|zuHause: man, you're free to play what you want ^^
23:06:31  <Samu> if i can change something in there, it would be to make it check on the last day of the month
23:06:37  <ST2> who am I to question ;)
23:06:56  <Samu> to avoid those expenses things
23:07:00  <Samu> on the first day
23:07:06  <ST2> Samu: you can change and will work well on SP
23:07:28  <ST2> you can even send it to admin port
23:07:50  <ST2> but that will cause desyncs on online servers
23:08:02  <ST2> unless client is patched too
23:08:05  <Samu> oh, right... damn online servers
23:08:09  <ST2> with exact same changes
23:08:11  <Samu> ok, then i won't touch it
23:08:40  <ST2> you can have an example
23:09:20  <ST2> CM, BTPro and n-ice custom clients have a window to count cargo delivered
23:09:27  <ST2> on client side only
23:09:59  <Samu> it must comply with onlinability
23:10:04  <Samu> :(
23:11:49  <ST2> I'm in favour of communities be free to provide own changed clients, since don't interfer with gameplay
23:12:10  <ST2> there's a patch (copy/Paste) tracks
23:12:30  <ST2> that can be changed to be compatible with MP games
23:12:45  <ST2> that, we consider an unfair advantage
23:12:57  <ST2> and we'll never add it on our client
23:14:25  <ST2> Samu: but you can check most of the Community clients - changes are mostly about GUI stuff
23:15:36  <ST2> CityMania client has more advanced features - the advanced ones only work on their servers (changes accordingly)
23:16:01  <ST2> can be used on Vanilla servers too, but advanced stuff won't show
23:17:07  <ST2> so, basically, there's changes you can make and keep MP compatibility... others you can't
23:17:49  <ST2> it's all about what happens on server (players interaction, etc etc)
23:18:04  <ST2> crap, I'm talking too much :P
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23:18:56  <Samu> well i know that, I don't quite like it
23:20:07  <Samu> someone could find me right away where I am building, it's quite an advantage
23:20:17  <ST2> Samu: try run Vanilla and try, for example BTPro client - all changes on the custom client are GUI stuff
23:20:32  <ST2> dnt change the game itself
23:20:46  <Samu> it's some sort of map hack for openttd
23:21:00  <supermop_> so much for competitive bidding and the free market
23:21:10  <ST2> devs don't like we call it Openttd <stable-version>
23:21:34  <ST2> but are only gui changes on client side
23:22:01  <Samu> it would be fine for server admins, but it's unfair in my opinion, for those who come to play, unles
23:22:04  <Samu> everyone uses it
23:22:09  <supermop_> of three contractors bidding on this job, 2 didn't even bother to show up to the site visit yesterday, and the other is bidding 10,000 over budget
23:23:08  <ST2> Samu: you can make even more changes, and that would make you the only person on advantage
23:23:15  <ST2> we make it public
23:23:23  <ST2> what's wrong with it?
23:23:26  <supermop_> and one of the no shows emailed to apologize and ask to reschedule 2 hours after the visit, and then when i suggested some times for tomorrow, has not responded to any emails, and voicemailbox is full
23:23:53  <supermop_> at least none of the stuff going wrong with the project is explicitly my fault yet
23:24:29  <ST2> supermop_: you have a gun, right?! SOLVED!!!
23:24:31  <ST2> xD
23:25:05  <supermop_> New Open TTD patch idea: if you build a small amount of track, it has x% chance of costing y% more than normal, because only one contractor bothered to bid, and therefore he feels like ripping you off
23:25:48  <supermop_> ST2: i think that would result in fewer contractors bidding on the job, not more
23:26:29  <ST2> supermop_: there's not a more or less concept - there's only a right value
23:26:47  <supermop_> we just need a socialist state economy with an inefficient bureaucracy in charge of building backyard decks for people
23:27:21  <ST2> we need a do'er economy... not a talker one
23:27:29  <supermop_> that way you know that it will cost exactly 200% of normal, and will be completed 10 years from schedule, nothing else to worry about
23:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: by experience, that just results in fewer things being built
23:27:41  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: exactly
23:27:59  <supermop_> at least i would know that the project would never get built in that case
23:29:07  <Eddi|zuHause> also, state economies don't kill the free markets, they just go underground
23:29:31  <Samu> time for me to sleep
23:29:38  <Samu> hybernating this
23:29:44  <Samu> cyas good night
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23:30:20  <supermop_> the contractors i am soliciting bids for are already about as black market as i can get and still get formal bids from
23:31:02  <supermop_> don't ask too many questions about who is doing the labor, if they are union, or even if they know what they are doing
23:31:23  <supermop_> just get a cheap (for NYC) price and pay cash
23:32:41  <supermop_> if they suggest an alternate material because they happened to get 'a great deal' on some, don't worry too much about that either
23:36:44  <supermop_> also i am guessing a shitty 'design by committee' would necessitate me being in the office until 8:00pm
23:36:51  <supermop_> *wouldnt
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23:42:44  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how free markets help avoiding a "design by committee"
23:56:40  <supermop_> maybe it is time for this committee of one to go home for the night
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