Log for #openttd on 13th June 2016:
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01:44:48  <Mudkillz> hello?
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02:10:05  <Eddi|zuHause> hello.
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05:38:47  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: what luck. It's just changed :D I guess you'd need to get source from github and compile yourself. But I also guess that the small set of changes might permit an upgrade midgame.
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08:41:19  <Wolf01> o/
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10:09:11  <Samu> hi~~
10:12:58  <Samu> hmm servers ain't being advertised
10:15:02  <Samu> nevermind, they are
10:15:35  <Samu> took a while
10:16:33  <Samu> ST2: hi, can you try joining any of my servers? from yesterday to today, I gained a different IP address, so I wonder what will happen
10:17:02  <Samu> ST2: this is hibernation thing
10:17:39  <Samu> @logs
10:17:39  <DorpsGek> Samu:
10:19:40  <Samu> bah, sorry st2, i did not get a new ip address after all, I was wrong
10:26:38  <Samu> AroAI is triggering bankrupt warnings for no reason
10:27:03  <Samu> he's working too close to the max loan limit
10:29:12  <Samu> he's got a huge profit of £1.100k
10:29:40  <Samu> sad to see successfull AI's getting these warnings
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10:58:59  <Samu> The extension log is not allowed, why not?
10:59:06  <Samu> can't upload log files to the forum
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11:03:10  <Samu> - reported
11:12:30  <Samu> attached savegame
11:12:48  <Samu> aroai is special, he actually starts working immediately after load
11:16:14  <Samu> are bankrupt warnings saved in savegames?
11:16:21  <Samu> :(
11:17:16  <Samu> stored in savegames*
11:19:12  <Samu> brb
11:22:23  <Samu> back
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11:31:48  <Wolf01> you don't need to tell us when you go away for 3 minutes, I think people are smart enough to guess you are busy elsewhere when you aren't writing ;)
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11:45:58  <Samu> i'm submitting a feature request, but I bet it's gonna be dismissed anyway
11:53:59  <Samu>
11:54:11  <Samu> not a bug
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13:03:37  * Samu slaps ST2 around a bit with a large fishbot
13:05:32  <Samu> ST2: could I ask you another favour?
13:06:50  <Samu> ST2: could you test this on your servers, those which use GS? Since you got a much larger audience, I'd like to know if it is stable or if it causes desyncs
13:07:34  <Samu> I expect no desyncs, but I got a limited audience
13:07:37  <ST2> we disabled autosaves on our servers
13:07:48  <Samu> yes, nice, exactly
13:09:23  <ST2> and, as I hope you understand, I'm @ work now and hardly gonna test weird stuff on our servers
13:09:48  <Samu> oh okay :|
13:11:39  <Samu> just thought it could be useful, it stores less data when sending the map to clients
13:11:56  <Samu> less bandwidth requirements
13:12:03  <ST2> we dnt have issues with it
13:12:43  <ST2> the way to make really small map file sizes is to remove trees
13:13:01  <ST2> gets 1/4 of size
13:13:26  <Samu> yeah, i noticed trees are evil
13:13:52  <Samu> savegame format lzma:6 also compresses better
13:14:02  <Samu> but requires more ram usage on the servers
13:14:19  <Samu> and slows down the upload rate
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13:26:28  <Samu> in fact, I got no audience at all, it's jsut me
13:26:47  <Samu> i have no idea how to make this compatible with 1.6.1-RC1
13:29:16  <ST2> Samu: check PM
13:29:25  <Samu> ok
13:33:47  <supermop_> yo
13:55:05  <_dp_> omg, rly? 3/4 of save is just trees?
14:04:18  <Samu> yes, i tested it
14:05:23  <Samu> tree_placer = 1.sav 18,7 MB (19.677.544 bytes)
14:05:48  <Samu> tree_placer = 2.sav 26,9 MB (28.269.848 bytes)
14:06:09  <Samu> tree_placer = 0.sav 4,21 MB (4.419.608 bytes)
14:06:20  <Samu> 4096x4096 map, arctic tileset
14:06:43  <Samu> 1 - original
14:06:46  <Samu> 2 - improved
14:06:47  <Samu> 0 - none
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14:25:15  <supermop_> trees are effectively noise - not compressible
14:25:58  <Wolf01> then don't save the trees and regenerate them randomly each time the game is loaded
14:26:15  <supermop_> oooh
14:26:21  <supermop_> that's interesting
14:26:33  <_dp_> heightmap is also noise
14:26:41  <Wolf01> what is saved about a tree?
14:27:09  <supermop_> tile location, tree type, number of trees on tile?
14:27:25  <supermop_> i'd love to see more data per tree
14:27:48  <Wolf01> I think some informations might be discarded and just save the latter, who will notice the colour of a tree falling in the middle of the Amazon forest?
14:28:26  <supermop_> things that could give certain species preferences for certain areas
14:28:38  <supermop_> so the pines stay with pines etc
14:29:09  <Wolf01> maybe you could regenerate 80% pines above snow line and 20% others and the inverse below the snowline
14:29:22  <supermop_> also, slope or average 3x3 slope of tile the tree is on, so that trees on 'dark' sides of hills can be shaded
14:29:43  <supermop_> so that trees do not camouflage topography
14:30:59  <supermop_> but none of that matters for save - in fact
14:31:06  <Wolf01> there's the transparency/invisibility feature for that
14:31:25  <supermop_> Wolf01: that's a bad solution
14:32:16  <Wolf01> what, enabling transparency to see the terrain?
14:32:20  <supermop_> as you have the dilemma of either can't see where you or building, or can't see that you just destroyed 100 trees while messing around and no rating is destroyed
14:32:45  <supermop_> also the map looks prettier with trees, but we all just leave them off most of the time
14:33:06  <Alberth> only while building :)
14:33:24  <supermop_> i still would likely turn off while doing most building
14:33:36  <supermop_> but id like a compromise while planning
14:34:07  <supermop_> also i find once trees get dense enough, they nolonger look good
14:34:15  <Wolf01> I would like a planning layer too
14:34:25  <Wolf01> which doesn't change the map
14:34:28  <supermop_> as it becomes a flat green noise
14:34:41  <supermop_> you cant see any beautiful tree covered hills
14:35:28  <Wolf01> by the way, we are diverting from the original problem
14:36:13  <supermop_> yes
14:36:16  <supermop_> but
14:36:54  <supermop_> if what ever places the trees has more info to go on, like put oaks roughly here, pines roughly here, etc
14:37:28  <supermop_> then you can regenerate trees on each load and get pretty similar results
14:37:45  <supermop_> so it wont look as weird that the actual trees are not saved
14:38:36  <supermop_> if save game only saves 'there are trees in this area' rather than 'this tile has tree 01, this tile has tree 03...etc"
14:38:50  <Wolf01> pines (with some mixed others) in snowy areas, less trees on slopes and more trees on flat tiles
14:39:30  <supermop_> it can predictably refill that area of trees in a reasonable looking way without saving precise location and species of each tree
14:40:02  <supermop_> by following those basic rules based on height slopw, next to water etc
14:40:15  <supermop_> the only problem is
14:40:56  <supermop_> what if a player is specifically planting like a boulevard row of palm trees lining the road to their HQ
14:41:22  <supermop_> or they have like a tuscany map and want rows of specific trees along the country roads
14:41:31  <_dp_> from what I can see no one even bothered to compress trees, they are just stuffed in map array in hope that zip will magically compress them
14:41:32  <supermop_> those will be lost
14:41:38  <Wolf01> maybe we could make an exception for player planted trees, or if a player wants static trees just use grf objects
14:42:17  <Wolf01> and if you plant an entire forest, you'll end up using more savegame space
14:43:57  <supermop_> hmm
14:44:30  <supermop_> i'd prefer my 'planted' forests stay random - maybe objects are best for decorative trees
14:45:20  <supermop_> can object have a property that 'spawns' a tree of a certain type on the object, rather than just grabbing a sprite?
14:45:55  <Wolf01> also, trees die and spring continuously, so nobody will ever notice they are random
14:46:26  <_dp_> you can make "random" type of tree that can be used along with specific ones, that will a good start I think
14:47:32  <supermop_> actually the current trees are so dumb i don't know if anyone would miss their behaviour changing
14:48:11  <supermop_> also would be great if deciduous trees could lose leaves in autumn/winter
14:48:25  <_dp_> since trees from mapgen will mostly be "random" so zip can compress it nicely, and user is unlikely to plant a lot of specific trees in random patterns
14:49:56  <Wolf01> and what about map layers which could be compressed separately? it coule also help to remove a lot of things from the map array
14:50:04  <Wolf01> in fact you will have more map arrays
14:50:13  <Wolf01> with different features
14:51:14  <Wolf01> you could even have one layer to plan the construction
14:51:23  <_dp_> don't think having more layers will be of any help to reduce save size
14:52:02  <Wolf01> but a "tree distribution layer" could be handled differently from the current map array
14:53:02  <Wolf01> instead of having to save the position and details for every tile you might save... intersecting ovals with different sizes and tree type
14:54:17  <supermop_> Wolf01: that's sort of what i had in mind, just clouds of trees
14:54:34  <_dp_> Wolf01, position is not being saved currently, only data for all tiles consequently
14:55:09  <supermop_> could save center of cloud, or north corner, or even all corners, for odd shapes, and it would still be much smaller than saving every tile
14:55:18  <Wolf01> yes
14:56:27  <supermop_> "tile x,y - White Oak, dx: 10 tiles, dy: 21 tiles"
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14:58:13  <supermop_> or save like a closed polyline in CAD: "(x1,y1), (x2,y2), (x3,y3), ....(xn,yn) - Blue Spruce"
14:58:33  <supermop_> maybe extra bits for average age or something
14:59:18  <_dp_> I think you're overcomplicating things, if you want more tree-centered approach then repeat mapgen for initial trees and then only save player modifications
14:59:27  <supermop_> or not even save the species and let game of a tree newgrf provide rules guiding how to plant trees given that area
14:59:58  <Samu> otvi server is "about" to finish
15:01:06  <supermop_> _dp_: my aim is less about reduced save size, more about a more interesting or smart tree placement, that hopefully has the added benefit of also reducing the 'noisiness' of trees
15:03:25  <Wolf01> if we could have a save size of 6MB instead of 4MB (no trees) and 19MB (original) it will really be an improvement
15:04:22  <_dp_> supermop_, it needs some checking, but imo currently most noisiness comes from variety of trees types/state, not from their location
15:05:08  <_dp_> location seems to follow some patterns more or less, which is ok for zip
15:05:33  <Samu> i believe i used default saving, lzma:2
15:05:36  <supermop_> _dp_: but you could save that by not listing each tree's species, just have a cloud that says "trees in this area are pines"
15:06:01  <Samu> i did that test 2 months ago
15:07:11  <_dp_> supermop_, you don't need areas for that. just put that "pines" in map array instead of specific types
15:07:37  <_dp_> and for compressing groups of pines, zip will do fine
15:08:10  <Samu> it's zlib or lzma or lzo, there's no zip
15:10:06  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: hi. Concerning the server version - are you on windows?
15:12:30  <supermop_> yeah, generally
15:12:36  <supermop_> at the moment i am at work
15:12:51  <Alkel_U3> ah ok
15:12:57  <_dp_> like, generally speaking working with areas may be better, it's just a lot more complex approach and I don't believe anyone will ever do it)
15:13:00  <supermop_> but both work and home computers teen to be 64 but win 7
15:14:15  <Alkel_U3> hm, that's a bit more difficult environment for patching from git and compiling the source
15:14:37  <Alkel_U3> I'll try if the server is ok with changing the version midgame
15:14:55  <_dp_> while introducing a few special values for random types is pretty minor change
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15:17:01  <_dp_> and btf tree type can even be made a function of map seed and tile coordinates, that way it will stay the same even after reload
15:17:08  <supermop_> Alkel_U3: i can wait for the next round
15:17:32  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: it has daylength 5 - it will be a long, long wait :D
15:18:44  <Alkel_U3> although I regret not making the map bigger - this setting could see the 1024^2 size as still cozy
15:21:01  <Alkel_U3> and it's much easier to make money - I'm considering a third instance :-)
15:22:21  <supermop_> 1024 is fine on my work computer, but to be honest my laptop at home struggles with anything bigger than that
15:23:20  <Alkel_U3> I chose smaler map for gameplay-wise reasons. The server should handle bigger maps fine
15:24:44  <supermop_> Alkel_U3: your server might, but my client can't
15:25:33  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: what's inside your laptop? I could understand if it was an atom or a lower-end Core 2...
15:25:50  <supermop_> 6 years of junk i guess
15:26:11  <supermop_> it's been overheating easily a lot recently too
15:26:41  <supermop_> and ram gets maxed out on any large ottd map, especially if chrome is also running
15:26:47  <Samu> disable full animation
15:26:59  <Samu> use 8bpp blitter
15:26:59  <supermop_> Samu: i do
15:27:09  <Samu> they're the biggest cpu offenders for me
15:27:33  <supermop_> cpu is ok, except for when it overheats
15:27:52  <Alkel_U3> a friend of mine has a dell work laptop with hawell i7 and a radeon graphics - if left unchecked while playing something demanding, it's guaranteed to turn off soon :D
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15:28:00  <supermop_> its a circa 2010 i7, don't remember any specs off the top of my head
15:28:12  <Alkel_U3> (happened even during factorio MP)
15:28:19  <supermop_> yeah
15:28:27  <Samu> sec, let me check
15:28:38  <supermop_> i forget what gpu i have as well
15:28:57  <supermop_> it was certainly a nice vaio in 2010
15:29:18  <Samu> openttd.exe -b 8bpp-optimized
15:29:31  <Samu> i used this on my Athlon XP 2700+
15:29:39  <supermop_> also the ssd on it is almost entirely full
15:29:59  <Samu> then turned off full animation, it became much better
15:30:18  <Samu> while in the game, don't zoom out too much
15:30:32  <Samu> forbit it from zooming out , think there's a setting there
15:31:22  <supermop_> and haven't made the time to sit down and clear it out
15:31:54  <supermop_> i feel like its so old i don't want to sink a lot of time on it though, would be better to just buy a new computer
15:31:59  <Samu> but if the server you join doesn't pause on join, then catching up will still be problematic
15:32:35  <supermop_> seeing as i need to do rhino work for freelance occasionally, and rendering is really tough on that old machine
15:33:16  <supermop_> but i've been just about broke for most of the last 3 years as something keeps coming up to spend all my disposable money on
15:35:33  <_dp_> is there any tool to check savegame parts size?
15:35:54  <_dp_> or at least something to work with savegames
15:36:17  <Alkel_U3> well I got a GTX 560Ti from a friend. My budget would constrain me from gettin something half-decent. The rest is pretty budget :-)
15:37:49  <supermop_> like moving to australia, then moving back from australia etc
15:39:07  <Alkel_U3> except the PSU - I retained that as a leftower from an attemt to get money mining litecoin. So now I have a PC which could be well content with a 400W PSU being powered by a 1,2kW 80 Platinum plus monster :D
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15:41:12  <Samu> i use a program named Process Lasso on that Athlon rig
15:41:29  <Samu> makes the system more responsive
15:42:06  <Samu> doesn't necessarily improve performance, it works with process priorities
15:42:24  <Samu> it "governs" process priorities
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15:42:49  <Samu> kinda helps, but I recognize that system is really old for web browsing
15:42:56  <Wolf01> heh, he was extremely quick today
15:43:32  <Alkel_U3> wow, I'd almost forget. I used that too, back on an old 2002 Pentium 4 with XP. It objectively helped.
15:43:44  <supermop_> i wonder if i can convince my boss to help pay for a new computer so i can do more work from home
15:44:10  <Samu> oh, I'm using windows 7 on it
15:45:05  <Samu> athlon xp is about from the same age, 2003
15:47:51  <Alkel_U3> well, I see more powerfull computers being decommisioned and thrown away nowadays. Heck, I even got my hands on some intel miniitx boards with sandybridge i3s on them
15:48:47  <Samu> according to microsoft, that athlon xp is eligible for windows 10 update too... :(
15:50:45  <Alkel_U3>
15:51:46  <Samu> lol
15:54:00  <Samu> i tried a 4096x4096 map generated on it
15:54:11  <Samu> it's unplayable
15:54:38  <Samu> tried a 2048x2048 - it's playable, but... hardly acceptable
15:54:59  <Samu> 1024x2048 can be dealt with, fine
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15:58:35  <Alkel_U3> when I transfered to OpenTTD large maps were just becoming a thing, I think. I instantly chose 2048^2 with daylength 10 and ~100tile min city distance  and built stuff all over it :D
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16:02:01  <Samu> _dp_: savegame_format = lzma:6, my bad, maybe i should restest
16:06:59  <Samu> oh wow, i just triggered a weird bug
16:07:27  <Samu> saved with name tree_placer = 0, savegame_format = lzma:0
16:07:38  <Samu> :0 wasn't put into the name
16:07:43  <Samu> and it didn't close the file
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16:08:44  <Samu> generated a 0 bytes save
16:12:39  <_dp_> hm, getaddrinfo for hostname "/dev/fd/63", port 3979, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type tcp failed: Name or service not known
16:12:49  <_dp_> why can openttd -D suddenly stop working?
16:14:18  <_dp_> after I used <(echo test) but that was in other terminal
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16:26:02  <Samu> lol, lzo is so brutally fast
16:27:04  <Alberth> hola
16:29:05  <_dp_> did some tests, of MAPn layers size in savegame
16:29:11  <_dp_> without trees: [58712, 49064, 65012, 57148, 100868, 32604, 17188]
16:29:22  <_dp_> with trees: [59204, 342480, 277832, 57004, 335060, 32640, 17012]
16:29:35  <_dp_> on temperate with same seed
16:32:05  <_dp_> didn't check MAPT but looks like it adds another 120000
16:36:40  <_dp_> so in total for trees: 120k - location, 393k - ground << 6 | density << 4, 212k - tree type, 234k - count << 6 | growth.
16:37:53  <_dp_> extra 860k to 580k save
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16:41:28  <frosch123> hoi
16:43:43  <Wolf01> quak
16:44:09  <Wolf01> I ate fried frogs yesterday, just fyi ;)
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16:47:07  <frosch123> i wonder, do people who eat dogs distinguish them from wolfs?
16:49:10  <Wolf01> I don't know, I'm not from the far east
16:52:13  <Samu> Wormnest: do you want Otvi log?
16:52:30  <Samu> its a 59 MB txt file :) and i didn't saved all of it
16:52:39  <supermop_> frosch123: i imagine it is more difficult to get the wolf to eat
16:52:47  <Wolf01> mmmh, today is a beautiful sunny day but the sky is rumbling... /me checks the other side of the house... oh... there it is, it looks like Mordor
16:53:30  <supermop_> and traditionally dogs are only eaten as a famine food in desperate times, not likely to be a bunch of wolves around then
16:53:39  <Alberth> house right at the border :)
16:55:31  <_dp_> adding "random" type of tree will make it 940k save, 360k extra instead of 860k
16:56:41  <Wolf01> is it me or numbers don't match?
16:58:10  <_dp_> where?
16:58:11  <frosch123> supermop_:
16:58:47  <Wolf01> 940k -> 360k & 860k
16:59:04  <frosch123> both wolfs and frogs can be eaten when there is famine. but usually they are eaten as "something special"
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16:59:15  <_dp_> 940 = 360(trees) + 580(rest)
16:59:50  <Wolf01> oh frogs here are a delicacy :)
17:00:23  <_dp_> 1440(current save) = 860(trees currently) + 580(rest)
17:00:30  <supermop_> what often starts as 'emergency only' food becomes delicacy after a few centuries or melinnia
17:00:33  <frosch123> supermop_: not that i care whether people eat dogs, pigs or cows
17:01:01  <frosch123> i like chicken though :p
17:01:04  <supermop_> but i doubt there were many easy to catch wolves about in china last year or 1000 years ago
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17:02:33  <supermop_> but human societies generally avoid eating apex predators except in exceptional circumstances
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17:04:32  <Samu> _dp_ could you make compression multi-threaded?
17:04:41  *** Flygon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04:57  <Samu> it starts a new save process, but the compression itself is still single-threaded
17:07:51  <Alberth> meh, why is fios so freaking complicated?
17:08:53  <frosch123> i also wondered about that :)
17:09:43  <frosch123> i think it is due to the arcane state machine that is used to "switch modes" when loading a game or scenario
17:09:46  <Wormnest> Samu: no thanks IÂŽm fine without it :)
17:10:32  <Alberth> too many weird globals, and weird enums that are mostly duplicate but not quite
17:16:49  <Samu> just started EpicTrans
17:16:56  <Alberth> epic!
17:17:02  <Samu> replaced OtviAI
17:17:28  <Samu> otviai finished!! without crashing, just making the server miserably slow
17:18:13  <Wormnest> I like that noCAB reuses rail tracks but itÂŽs not optimal if three routes come together shortly before a long tunnel :)
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17:31:01  <Samu> hoho, for the first time lzma:9 compressed more than lzma:8, 7 and 6
17:31:36  <Samu> it needs mucho trees to to it!
17:34:25  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27600 trunk/src/newgrf_spritegroup.cpp (2016-06-13 19:34:18 +0200 )
17:34:26  <DorpsGek> -Fix: [NewGRF] shift-and-add-divide/modulo varadjusts use signed division/modulo.
17:37:11  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you have some kind of list for ancient bugs in arcane newgrf features, which noone uses?
17:37:27  <frosch123> (except in this case NML trying to be clever)
17:45:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27601 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2016-06-13 19:45:37 +0200 )
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> spanish (mexican): 4 changes by Absay
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18:05:45  <Samu> i count a total of 27 AIs that make use of road vehicles
18:06:06  <Samu> from bananas
18:06:14  <Samu> without counting town cars stuff, i dont like that
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18:09:58  <andythenorth> o/
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18:13:19  <supermop_> yo
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18:17:46  <supermop_> andy is doing trucks or legos today?
18:18:30  <ST2> he mixed them... doing lego trucks :P
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18:25:19  <supermop_> i got another quote from a second contractor for this deck i am designing. instead of being 10kUSD over budget, now it is 35k over budget
18:34:54  <andythenorth> how do I break an ebay habit?
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18:38:41  <supermop_> andythenorth: run out of money
18:39:42  <supermop_> worked for me
18:39:51  <V453000> XD
18:39:53  <supermop_> no more vintage braun finds
18:40:04  <andythenorth> hmm
18:40:16  <andythenorth> if I buy enough stuff to run out of money that is a real problem
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18:40:28  <andythenorth> I don’t buy enough to do that
18:40:32  <supermop_> you'll get there
18:40:47  <andythenorth> nah, I’m only buying US HO trains on UK ebay
18:40:51  <andythenorth> there aren’t that many good ones
18:40:52  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: I'm resetting the server
18:40:57  <V453000> :D
18:41:01  <andythenorth> and I have price limits
18:41:10  <andythenorth> but within those rules, I buy everything I see
18:41:17  <Alkel_U3> (the patchpack one)
18:41:23  <andythenorth> because only one or two things come up most days
18:41:34  <supermop_> andythenorth: i wonder if i still have my old HO stuff in my parent basement
18:42:04  <V453000> LMFAO
18:42:06  <V453000> fucking priceless
18:42:07  <V453000>
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18:42:41  <supermop_> i had a cool set of steel beams to make an under construction HO scale building
18:42:52  <supermop_> well maroon plastic, not steel
18:44:17  <supermop_> some UP locomotive, and one santa fe chief thing
18:44:51  <supermop_> i don't know enough about US locomotives to know what the famous one of those was
18:45:01  <andythenorth> V453000: good error
18:45:07  <andythenorth> supermop_: meanwhile
Antelope :P
18:47:00  <supermop_> nice
18:47:29  <supermop_> i need a N layout to run my little 08 around on
18:49:27  <supermop_> dont even need any stock
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18:55:25  <supermop_> Alkel_U3: work internet being slow, downloading pp now
18:55:53  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: me being slow, too - I compiled or patched wrong dir again
18:56:06  <Alkel_U3> so, compiling :D
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19:03:31  <Alkel_U3> aand running
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19:11:10  <supermop_> no RV set?
19:12:44  <V453000> VR?
19:13:11  <frosch123> interesting point
19:13:21  <frosch123> why all the hype about vr? ottd hashad rv for years
19:14:05  <V453000> openttd's rv is probably too shit
19:14:29  <Rubidium> uhm...
19:14:30  <V453000> you need some oculus roadhog DLC to make it work properly
19:14:36  <Rubidium> isn't OpenTTD VR by definititon?
19:14:56  <V453000> I'm not being serious at all Rubidium :P
19:14:56  <Samu> some dudes who joined epictrans server made him bankrupt
19:15:02  <Samu> oh well
19:15:11  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: there's still eGRVTS?
19:15:27  <Samu> they'll get tired of it
19:15:35  <Samu> the AI is always respawning
19:18:27  <supermop_> Alkel_U3: nope
19:19:16  <Alkel_U3> supermop_: are you sure you got the right server? I have it available
19:20:40  <supermop_> only alkel patchpack server i found
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19:20:52  <Alkel_U3> that's really weird
19:21:38  <Alkel_U3> I even see it in the server details - fourth grf from bottom
19:24:57  <supermop_> still downloading pineapple btw
19:25:28  <supermop_> usually stick to 8 bit stuff so this is taking a quite a bit longer to download
19:33:01  <Alkel_U3> I'd actually like it more if it was an 8bit set. I just like it because it's nice non-complicated alternative to the base set with vaguely similar feel
19:33:36  <andythenorth> Horse
19:35:20  <Alkel_U3> I've been thinking about that one, but I don't like the feel of the americanish roster that much :-)
19:35:23  <supermop_> ^
19:35:36  <supermop_> horse has an american roster?
19:36:33  <Alkel_U3> what the hell did I confuse it with
19:36:49  <Alkel_U3> seriously
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19:37:26  <andythenorth> Horse is how Pikka would have made a set if Pikka was me and Dan
19:37:30  <Alkel_U3> yeah, ok, next game has horse :D
19:40:09  <andythenorth> blearch, stuck on a silly code decision
19:40:52  <Alkel_U3> by the way, if I got it correctly, antelope will be a different, wild-westish or tropicalish based roster for horse?
19:41:08  <andythenorth> tropicalish
19:41:24  <andythenorth> West Africa, by way of fiction and invention
19:41:28  <Alkel_U3> awesome
19:41:35  <andythenorth> matches to In A Hot Country economy in FIRS
19:41:48  <andythenorth> needs an RV set too :P
19:42:02  <andythenorth> and ships
19:42:47  <Alkel_U3> I liked Tropical Refurbishment set - had a nice feel, but I found it struggling with some FIRS cargoes
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19:43:05  <Alkel_U3> s/struggling/not being compatible/
19:43:13  <andythenorth> I have the sprites for that and have used a few for inspiration in Antelope
19:44:08  <andythenorth> so eh, I need to associate some list elements with preceeding elements in the list.  I could use (1) indexes (where sometimes it’s non-trivial to figure out what the index value should be) or (2) arbitrary labels to connect the list elements (provider / consumer)
19:44:12  <Alkel_U3> RVs will be awesome, too. I'm kinda getting bored with eGRVTS. Ships of SQUID are still pretty new and good to me, though :-)
19:44:21  <andythenorth> Squid is terrible
19:44:27  <andythenorth> but eh
19:44:46  <andythenorth> it will do for now
19:44:48  <Alkel_U3> better than base :P
19:44:50  <andythenorth> NewShips is ok too
19:44:56  <andythenorth> the original newgrf
19:45:30  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I don’t build space, but this?
19:45:41  <andythenorth> pretty neat?
19:45:41  <Alkel_U3> Newships is great, except for the part where all vehicles become obsolete and you can't buy ships anymore
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19:51:11  <Alkel_U3> now I really could use indentation in vehicle orders menu. I used just 4 conditionals jumping back and forth and I'm already lost at it :D
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19:53:27  <Wolf01> andythenorth, yes, nice details
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19:55:50  <Samu> you can build a bridge over a bridge ramp?
19:56:09  <Alkel_U3> also over tunnel portal
19:56:11  <supermop_> think so
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19:57:20  <Samu> nice, my bad, was confusing it as a bug somehow
19:57:23  <Samu> :o
19:58:12  <Alkel_U3> but you still can't build a brisge over a volcano :(
19:58:33  <Alkel_U3> mostly because there is no volcano
19:58:57  <Alberth> nothing that a newobject can't fix :p
19:59:18  <Alkel_U3> oh yeah, I also forgot about those! :D
19:59:25  <Alberth> or even a sign with "volcano" on it :p
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20:01:21  <supermop_> keep losing connection when trying to join server, i think work internet is worthless today
20:01:48  <Alkel_U3> what's your ping, anyway?
20:01:55  <Alkel_U3> say,
20:02:24  <Alkel_U3> (that should be close to the server)
20:02:35  <supermop_> we are resetting our switch
20:02:42  <supermop_> whole office having trouble
20:03:51  <Wolf01> andythenorth,
20:08:35  <Samu> rondje is gonna bankrupt
20:08:44  <jaenster> lol
20:09:01  <andythenorth> Wolf01: train :P
20:09:06  <andythenorth> also bed
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20:15:31  <Samu> rondje bankrupted
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20:16:24  <Rubidium> did it build its gazillion road stations?
20:16:34  <Samu> no, did nothing
20:16:48  <Samu> only raising and lowering loan
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20:17:06  <Samu> bankrupted in 2007
20:18:38  <Samu> erm, 2010 actually
20:18:48  <supermop> ok
20:19:24  <Samu> replaced Rondje with RoadAI
20:20:31  <Samu> restarting EpicTrans server due to some trolls
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20:24:50  <Samu> it's funny that gelignAIte with 6 rvs is beating 44 rvs PAXLink
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20:44:12  <Samu> ST2: still synced
20:44:24  <ST2> that's good :)
20:45:00  <Samu> only 1 guy joined
20:45:17  <Samu> no desync error when he left
20:45:21  <Samu> just says (leaving)
20:45:31  <ST2> RC1, as I told ya
20:45:39  <Wolf01> V453000, hype
20:47:19  <V453000> hype hype
20:47:28  <V453000> rendering on 2 computers at once
20:47:54  <Wolf01> I can rent you mine if you need another one :P
20:47:54  <Samu> can some dev review my request?
20:48:16  <Alkel_U3> render faster dammit! If you type furiously fast on three keyboads at once it will work i saw it in a movie!
20:48:19  <Alkel_U3> hype :D
20:48:35  <Samu> - how do I made devs try this out / review it, or something?
20:48:50  <Wolf01> the most I'm doing now is playing games and render some povrays lego models
20:49:07  <Samu> make*
20:50:34  <Alkel_U3> supermop: that's you who keeps unsuccessfuly trying to connect, I assume?
20:50:43  <supermop> yep
20:50:52  <supermop> sorry if i'm pausing your game too much
20:51:13  <Alkel_U3> that's fine, I'm just curious
20:52:13  <Samu> in essence, it is doing already what it does when a client saves the game on a server with scripts running
20:52:19  <Samu> it saves them empty
20:52:47  <Samu> i just made it save in this manner as well for clients joining servers
20:53:20  <Samu> I'm 95% certain it shouldn't desync
20:53:26  <Samu> but...
20:57:03  <supermop> Alkel_U3: giving up for today
20:57:52  <Alkel_U3> supermop: I'm gonna go to bed soon, anyway. I'm a bit affraid we'll be taking shifts during the work week :D
20:59:09  <supermop> hah
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21:21:45  <_dp_> just removing counter for tree tiles reduced my save size by 10%
21:24:51  <Wolf01> new trucks for andy, too bad he's already on the bed
21:24:57  <_dp_> and it's only used to count 15 ticks for each tree stage, pretty sure it can be replaced with some random tile selection like it's already done for tileloop
21:26:21  <_dp_> only issue I see is that freshly planted trees won't get their first growth exactly 15 ticks after planting
21:26:34  <_dp_> not a huge loss imo
21:26:37  <supermop> Wolf01: nice open cockpit on top of the cab there, looks comfortable for long haul drives
21:26:53  <Wolf01> specially with the bad weather
21:26:55  <Wolf01> :D
21:27:49  <supermop> _dp_: it's probably more 'realistic' if trees grow in a somewhat inexact rate
21:29:54  <_dp_> supermop, not sure how's that realistic but that's a nice solution too
21:30:03  <Samu> desyncing trees!
21:30:47  <Samu> can you try my patch _dp_?
21:31:29  <Samu> I beg for some dev to try my patch, :o
21:34:53  <_dp_> supermop, yeah, just tried Chance16(1, 15) instead of counter, don't see any major difference visually
21:35:38  <_dp_> supermop, except that planted trees grow at somewhat different speed which is expected
21:38:59  <Samu> speaking of trees
21:39:21  <Samu> i got a bunch of saves, testing the different compression levels and formats
21:39:50  <Samu> the "improved" tree_placer
21:40:02  <Samu> is the worst for all formats/levels
21:41:15  <Samu> lzma:9 is actually useful for the worst case scenario
21:41:20  <_dp_> oh, I didt'n use same seed for that test, it'l less than 10%, 100k of 1400
21:42:11  <Samu> I did use the same seed, then i used the same savegame to generate the other saves with different compressions
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21:42:35  <_dp_> interestingly setting counter to SetTreeCounter(tile, tile & 15) takes not that much more, but is pretty ok visually
21:43:04  <_dp_> some pattern still visible on fast forward but though
21:43:47  <Samu> sec, gonna log all my results into a nice .txt
21:46:58  <_dp_> (uint64)(tile * 19) & 15 is much better, almost no difference
21:47:26  <_dp_> and can be used with unpatched clients
22:00:55  <Eddi|zuHause> just look up a hash function?
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22:02:46  <Samu> _dp_:
22:03:51  <_dp_> that already is a simple hash function
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22:05:00  <_dp_> multiplying by number that is relatively prime with modulo
22:05:13  <_dp_> looks ok so don't see any reason to use smth more complex
22:06:01  <_dp_> besides, it it gets too good it won't compress well ;)
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22:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> trees never compress well...
22:07:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically a variation of this problem only for lossless compression.
22:08:42  <_dp_> well, I've already shaved off 10% of save size with this
22:08:50  <_dp_> and I only did counter and ground type
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22:15:35  <Wolf01> eddi, but trees don't move XD
22:16:06  *** ConductingCat [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: not very relevant...
22:17:48  <Wolf01> I know
22:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: the point is that is "too similar to random noise"
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22:18:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and thus not very compressible
22:18:17  <ST2> but you have to admit, would be fun having running trees xD
22:18:23  <Wolf01> XD
22:18:25  <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, that's why I'm eliminating randomness
22:19:27  <_dp_> doesn't have to be random to look random
22:20:26  <Wolf01> the function approach could be a good one, you define say 50 functions and pick some of them at map generation and place them in some tiles, then the functions will generate trees, maybe based on the year
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23:10:49  <_dp_> hm, making all trees in group to be the same time looks interesting but has almost no impact on save size...
23:10:55  <_dp_> *type
23:17:45  <_dp_>
23:18:43  <ST2> you can even name those tree's groups "National Parks" xD
23:18:46  <Wolf01> mmmh, it does not really convince me
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23:21:42  <_dp_> without random that ugly diamond shape really stands for some groups
23:21:46  <_dp_> *out
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