Log for #openttd on 18th June 2016:
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00:27:01  <Quinch> Hi folks. Quick question, what would currently be decent competitive AIs in a solo game?
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00:59:18  <Quinch> Also, for acceleration, what's better to have, power or TE?
01:01:23  <sim-al2> Technically, they're mutually inclusive
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01:01:59  <sim-al2> Maximizing power will be necessary if you want to maintain good acceleration though
01:06:26  <sim-al2> I've heard that Admiral AI is very competitive, but I haven't tried out personally
01:14:17  <Quinch> Gotcha.
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06:26:00  <Samu> hi
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07:04:53  *** ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.6.1-RC1, 1.6.0 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | if this channel is really spammy
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07:26:56  <Wolf01> moin
07:27:16  <peter1138> hmm, this mouse pointer behaviour is bugging me :S
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07:36:54  <Wolf01> o/
07:37:12  <Alberth> hi hi
08:07:43  <Wolf01> meh, I'm stupid, I reinstalled the apps on my phone so I lost all the related data
08:31:49  <Alberth> you seem to be doing a lot of installing stuff
08:32:05  <Alberth> or is it just now?
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08:32:41  <Wolf01> I replaced the SD card yesterday
08:33:10  <Wolf01> and the phone said "there's a problem with the app, reinstall it"
08:33:20  <Wolf01> for all the apps I installed in the SD
08:34:09  <Wolf01> the problem is that if put back the old SD, it sees the apps I didn't reinstall, but not the reinstalled ones
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08:35:00  <Wolf01> and in the new SD it sees the reinstalled ones but not the old ones
08:36:28  <Wolf01> I should have moved all the apps in the internal memory instead of copying them
08:42:15  <Alberth> ugh, pseudo-smart software :(
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09:32:41  <Alberth> quak
09:33:01  <frosch123> hoin
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09:44:09  <Wolf01> bsod copying a file to the SD O_o
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09:49:37  <Alberth> :O
09:54:51  <Wolf01> nice, the sd seem to be TFU
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09:56:19  <Wolf01> explorer crashed
09:56:25  <Wolf01> teracopy hanged
09:56:34  <Wolf01> wow
10:01:18  <Wolf01> forced reboot...
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10:22:01  <Wolf01> mmmh, a problem with the usb hub root now :|
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10:38:36  <Samu> re-hi
10:52:37  <Samu> Wormnest: what do you think of that score now
10:52:55  <Samu> i added 2 more columns
10:55:03  <Samu> gelignAIte wins the efficiency column, and that is odd
10:55:36  <Samu> but I don't know of a better formula
10:56:28  <Samu> formula is: best income of the last 2 years
10:56:45  <Samu> formula is: best income of the last 2 years / total number of road pieces
10:56:49  <frosch123> hmm, i guess you do not need to barrel up oil anymore, when you chain of refineries arrived at the next oilfield
10:59:28  <Rubidium> Samu: that reminds me of a trick by some AIs to build bridges instead of road pieces because the bridge was cheaper
10:59:56  <Rubidium> (and the vehicles weren't fast enough yet to require a faster bridge)
11:02:23  <Samu> hmm how are bridges and tunnels counted towards road pieces?
11:03:22  <Alberth> start with empty world, check road pieces, build bridge, check road pieces, build tunnel, check road pieces
11:05:23  <Samu> oh wow
11:05:56  <Samu> tunnel entrance, 8 road pieces
11:06:05  <Samu> that's odd
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11:06:58  <Samu> 8 pieces per each tunnel and bridge section
11:07:15  <Samu> i thought it would be 2
11:08:20  <Rubidium> tunnels are generally more expensive to maintain
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11:22:56  <Wormnest> Samu: I would add a description of what efficiency is to the forum post since that is not obvious in itself
11:23:30  <Wormnest> Besides that maybe change efficiency to also take into account number of road stations relative to number of vehicles?
11:24:28  <Wormnest> Although then you might favor aiÂŽs that make longer routes relative to those that favor more shorter routes
11:29:20  <Samu> how do I make the relation between road stations, number of vehicles, income and road pieces in a single formula :P
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11:31:29  <Samu> number of vehicles / number of road stations
11:31:37  <Samu> let me see what this results in
11:33:32  <Wormnest> The problem with that can be ofcourse that aiÂŽs that completely fill up the roads with vehicles get a high score
11:33:59  <Wormnest> which isnÂŽt very efficient
11:35:55  <Samu> nocab averages 38 rvs per station
11:35:58  <Samu> oops mogulai*
11:36:42  <Samu> NoCAB is strange
11:36:49  <Samu> many unused stations
11:38:19  <Samu> i don't really know what this score shows
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11:41:29  <Samu> cluelessplus got 356/356 stations served
11:42:07  <Samu> 100% served
11:43:39  <Samu> (total number of vehicles / total number of stations) * (number of stations served / total number of stations) = ???
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11:49:27  <Alberth> profit!
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12:01:53  <Wormnest> In the end it all depends on what you define as efficient
12:02:30  <Wormnest> While most aiÂŽs will just try to get the highest profits
12:02:34  <Samu> that formula is giving a very bad result to nocab
12:02:45  <Samu> and giving a very huge result for mogul
12:02:56  <Samu> I don't think this accounts for anything
12:03:10  <Wormnest> Well nocab is careless with road pieces and stations
12:03:43  <Samu> still calculating, wonder what result terron gets
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12:08:09  <Samu> PAXLink beats NoCAB for worst result
12:10:45  <Samu> 7.506 for terron, not the highest score, but also not the lowest
12:12:06  <Samu> best score: 36.095 for mogul
12:12:27  <Samu> worst score: 1.079 for PAXLink
12:13:49  <Samu> seems like it favours least number of serviced stations over very long distances with the most road vehicles used
12:14:08  <Samu> or maybe not
12:14:15  <Samu> nocab also does that
12:14:17  <Alberth> this is how you can prove anything with statistics
12:14:34  <Samu> oh, nocab actually serves a huge number of stations
12:14:47  <Samu> and has an even huger number of stations not being served
12:17:20  <Samu> RoadAI got 2nd best score, 14.360, CluelessPlus 3rd best score, 14.042
12:17:48  <Samu> let me see their games
12:18:08  * Rubidium wonders how much rail one is going to replace when it takes 48 hours (busy bit of track closed for 48 hours for unscheduled maintenance since Friday afternoon)
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12:23:01  <Samu> i can't see any relationship by just looking at their stations, seems like the formula makes no sense
12:25:50  <Wolf01> I bet this will be a hard treasure hunt... the game data aren't on the dedicated folder
12:26:34  <Samu> roadai is pure buses
12:26:43  <Samu> clueless plus if both buses and industries
12:26:50  <Samu> mogul is pure industries
12:27:36  <Samu> what they have in common is the number of vehicles per stations
12:27:42  <Samu> but that's just it
12:27:56  <Samu> their construction methods differ a lot
12:28:48  <Samu> roadai distances aren't even that large as the others
12:30:05  <Samu> seems like roadai would be a good cargodist AI
12:30:39  <Samu> it makes different connections by reusing the same stations
12:31:10  <Samu> mogul is simple greedy point to point
12:31:35  <Samu> with the hugest distances from the 3
12:32:26  <Samu> no reusing of stations for other connections, just a mass number of vehicles for each connection, like 44, 37 and so
12:32:49  <Samu> well, whatever, the formula doesn't seem to prove anything
12:33:55  <Samu> seems more like a "station reuse" formula rather than an efficiency formula
12:34:51  <Samu> not even reuse, ehm... mogul doesn't reuse
12:35:03  <Samu> i dunno
12:35:05  <Samu> i give up
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12:47:58  <Samu> back to trains testing
12:48:13  <Samu> denver & rio grande is doing something stupid
12:48:22  <Samu> there are no more diesel engines
12:48:43  <Samu> since he can't replace the trains, he's just selling those turner turbos as they get old, no replacement
12:49:06  <Samu> his profit graph is slowly diminishing
12:49:18  <Samu> why don't he convert to maglev
12:49:27  <Samu> or build as maglev
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12:50:31  <Samu> MailAI must be stuck ever since electrified rail became available, that's since monorail
12:50:51  <Samu> his log is repeating the same thing everytime
12:51:58  <Samu> i'm testing on sub-arctic, there's no "electrified railway" at least, but he seems to be dealing with this the wrong way
12:52:16  <Samu> there's a jump directly from diesel railway to monorail, which is electrified
12:53:56  <Samu> AIAI server has attracted 4 human companies
12:54:01  <Samu> he's beating them
12:54:03  <Samu> keks
12:55:35  <Samu> FastPTPAI also attracted some human players, he's still beating them yet, but... he's not that great past the early game
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14:41:52  <Wolf01> o/
14:43:14  <andythenorth> o/
14:45:12  <Wolf01> I bet tomorrow I'll make some of my friends stunned, I'll bring my lego slizers collection to the exposition :P
14:47:05  <Alberth> o/
15:01:05  <andythenorth> suddenly game is not dying
15:01:08  <andythenorth> not newgrf, anyway
15:01:15  <andythenorth> world and dog is making things
15:04:59  <Alberth> :)
15:19:22  <V453000> `yo
15:28:04  <andythenorth> lo V453000
15:28:26  <V453000> hihi
15:30:40  <Wolf01> andy, electric trucks!
15:30:43  <Wolf01> hi V
15:34:43  <V453000> considering to buy a macbook
15:34:54  <V453000> had enough of win10 and moderately shitty laptop
15:35:37  <Wolf01> buy a good laptop at half the price of a shitty macbook
15:35:55  <Alberth> install Linux :)
15:36:06  <Wolf01> and use gimp?
15:36:08  <Wolf01> XD
15:36:21  <Alberth> blender, more likely
15:37:01  <Wolf01> (not that gimp is a shitty software, it's just difficult to use as hell)
15:37:22  <Alberth> nah, you haven't tried blender yet, then :p
15:37:35  <Wolf01> I tried blender once
15:37:59  <Wolf01> I think I removed any memory about it
15:38:06  <Alberth> :D
15:38:16  <Wolf01> now I use only sketchup
15:38:34  <Alberth> it's probably a problem with professional software, it's impossible to use for non-professionals
15:46:12  <V453000> yeah I just converted dollars to czk
15:46:25  <V453000> thing is I don't need performance when I am on the fly
15:46:40  <V453000> but a laptop with normal disk and windows shit, is almost unusable
15:46:47  <V453000> it feels like it is 15 years old
15:46:55  <V453000> linux is not an option
15:47:01  <V453000> due to adobe and shit
15:47:16  <Alberth> then the choice is simplez
15:48:11  <V453000> well normal laptops with SSDs aren't exactly cheap either
15:48:12  <Wolf01> my sister purchased a laptop with win10 and ssd for just 1100€ to work as colourist... and play games
15:48:22  <andythenorth> V453000 you know my opinion :P
15:48:34  <V453000> for 1100 euros I can have a 13 inch macbook air
15:48:42  <andythenorth> yes and you would regret it
15:48:52  <andythenorth> macbook air is like buying a calculator
15:48:55  <V453000> XD
15:48:59  <andythenorth> they are underpowered PoS
15:49:05  <andythenorth> joke computer
15:49:14  <V453000> guess that is exactly what I needed to hear :P
15:49:15  <andythenorth> it’s a poser’s device
15:49:23  <Wolf01> my lumia 950xl is better, at least I can play minecraft
15:49:25  <Wolf01> XD
15:49:26  <andythenorth> why the Macbook Air exists, I do not know
15:49:38  <Alberth> for those posers
15:49:42  <V453000> so if air is trash, are any of the others better andythenorth ?
15:49:49  <andythenorth> if you want an underpowered lightweight computer, buy the 12” macbook
15:50:02  <andythenorth> otherwise buy a proper Macbook Pro, that is a proper computer
15:50:31  <V453000> I don't want to spend that much on it probably, but the lowest Pro would come in question
15:51:03  <andythenorth> I use mine for work, and usually they last 1-2 years
15:51:13  <V453000> dualcore 1,1 ghz sounds like a typo
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15:51:37  <andythenorth> mine costs me £2.19 per day if it lasts 2 years
15:51:44  <andythenorth> I spend that much on coffee
15:52:19  <V453000> XD point
15:52:45  <Alberth> so no more coffee for andy  :)
15:52:50  <andythenorth> when I get a new one the old one is sold, and macs usually sell used in uk for ~30% of new cost
15:52:57  <andythenorth> sometimes more
15:53:17  <andythenorth> so actually more like £1.40 / day
15:53:39  <V453000> not so bad
15:54:03  <andythenorth> do you need a lot of storage?
15:54:23  <andythenorth> Apple sell SSDs *expensively* (of course)
15:54:37  <V453000> nah
15:54:44  <V453000> storage is what desktop is for :)
15:55:07  <V453000> does it run factorio? :D
15:55:32  <andythenorth> apparently
15:55:52  <andythenorth> I would get something like this
15:55:57  <andythenorth> and bump to 16GB
15:55:59  <andythenorth> CPU is fine
15:56:23  <andythenorth> mine is about equivalent, mostly not slow
15:56:30  <V453000> that is what I am looking at
15:57:06  <andythenorth> lightweight, solid, quick, battery life insane compared to my last one
15:57:29  <V453000> how does it handle overheating when under load for a few hours?
15:57:38  <V453000> cause I feel like every single laptop I had, had huge issues with that
15:57:53  <andythenorth> overheating?
15:57:57  <andythenorth> it gets hot, if that’s what you mean
15:58:05  <andythenorth> like, you wouldn’t want it on bare skin
15:58:29  <V453000> normal then :D is that the reason for why it lasts "just 2 years"?
15:58:39  <andythenorth> no, it’s just there’s usually a new one
15:58:42  <andythenorth> so I scrap it
15:58:53  <V453000> XD
15:58:54  <andythenorth> ‘scrap’ = sell
15:59:04  <V453000> I get it
15:59:17  <andythenorth> this one dates from 2013 or so
15:59:46  <V453000> I will consider it
15:59:53  <V453000> it is a lot still
16:00:16  <Wolf01> the only reason for me to purchase a mac is because I might need to compile apps for iOS
16:00:20  <V453000> might just wait until current laptop finally melts
16:00:33  <andythenorth> FWIW I have always had the expected Apple level of service
16:00:51  <andythenorth> I know people who haven’t, I know a lot of mac users, and some get lemons and Apple don’t always do the right thing
16:01:10  <andythenorth> but I have owned probably 20 macs now, and the company has owned maybe over 100
16:01:15  <andythenorth> probably more tbh
16:01:37  <andythenorth> never had a lemon or a problem Apple refused to fix
16:02:34  * andythenorth will now change subject to trucks :P
16:03:54  <V453000> I will consider it, but definitely not right now
16:04:18  <V453000> is shitload of money for a vacation / internet computer
16:05:05  <V453000> will probably rather invest it into some nice extra car stuff later on
16:12:55  <V453000> might just slap some SSD into the current laptop and see how it fucks
16:13:36  <V453000> I would expect a 500 euro laptop to work somewhat ok
16:13:39  <V453000> but it's a nightmare
16:14:50  <Wolf01> V453000, about the rocket, what about use it for express delivery? you could make 200 silos for 200 different items and load them up like trains, then request a parachuted payload of stuff from every remote place of the map where you are
16:15:33  <V453000> XD
16:15:41  <V453000> sounds meh
16:15:58  <Wolf01> it will cost you a lot just to receive a bunch of rails XD
16:16:18  <V453000> but controlling the coordinates with combinators would be fun ... I would like something less "space rocket"though, more surface ish :P
16:17:18  <frosch123> use the rocket to shoot mirrors into orbit
16:17:23  <frosch123> the more mirrors, the less night
16:19:56  <Samu> number of recently serviced-stations is misleading
16:20:10  <Wolf01> btw, radar satellite and ion cannon satellite would really be a good choice
16:20:55  <Samu> if the station is both lorry and bus, and i only service a bus, it still counts as 2 stations
16:21:07  <Samu> counts that i serviced both
16:21:27  <frosch123> Wolf01: isn't the "lore" of "ion cannons" that they only work against machinery?
16:21:37  <Samu> is this correct? i only serviced the bus part of the station
16:22:19  <Wolf01> nah, they blew up the Temple of Nod and Kane with the ion cannon
16:23:45  <Samu> look at the tooltip, then look at the orders, i've only serviced 2 stations, but it counts 4
16:23:46  <Samu>
16:23:56  <frosch123> maybe it needs a laser drill like in those sc2 missions
16:24:05  <Wolf01> the only thing I never understood it was on RA2 when you had tesla troopers which were shielded against the electricity... and they where killed by enemy tesla coils too
16:25:15  <Samu> the airport is not serviced at the moment
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16:28:00  <Samu> does anyone have origina ttd at hand?
16:28:08  <Samu> how does it count there?
16:28:22  <Samu> or there is no detailed info?
16:30:11  <Samu> is the counter bugged or is it working as intended? it seems bugged for me
16:33:46  <Alberth> does original ttd even have detailed performance?  looks a bit unlikely
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16:35:44  <Samu> i dont remember
16:36:59  <Samu> if the counter is counting differently than I think, then i probably have some skewed results in the AI score test
16:37:22  <Alberth> it's all arbitrary numbers anyway :)
16:38:39  <Alberth> if the stations are all pretty much the same, the ratio isn't that far off
16:40:34  <Samu> maybe i'm misinterpreting the tooltip?
16:41:02  <Samu> it doesn't seem right anyway
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16:42:07  <Alberth> tooltip seems to use "station" in two different meanings, to me
16:52:43  <Samu> seems wrong in my opinion, it is artificially inflating the performance of a company
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16:54:00  <Alberth> there is no objective notion for "performance", imho
16:54:02  <Samu> (and skewing my results)
16:54:33  <Alberth> the concept is too generic
16:54:58  <Rubidium> it's like asking what the best car is
16:55:52  <Rubidium> without exactly defining what "best" is, there is no way of saying
17:02:06  <Alberth> Am I right in thinking that fileio.* is low-level file io,  fios_gui.cpp is the gui for file operations, and fios.* is for everything in-between?
17:02:35  <Alberth> Trying to add a scenario tar file format, but I consistently fail
17:03:06  <Alberth> there seems something wrong with fios.* but I can't put my finger on it
17:06:13  <Samu> hi glx, did you find a way to fix yesterday's redirector stuff?:o
17:06:31  <glx> no, it seems MS broke stuff
17:06:54  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07:54  <Samu> t.t
17:13:53  <Samu> the first train AI is reaching 2051
17:14:04  <Samu> FastPTPAI
17:16:51  <frosch123> Alberth: look a the console commands for browsing the filesystem
17:17:05  <frosch123> and then open the "load game" window in parallel
17:17:14  <frosch123> iirc that shows a lot of things that are "wrong" :p
17:18:22  <frosch123> the fios stuff is quite state-ful
17:18:29  <frosch123> in places thate are usually not
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17:29:13  <Samu> FastPTPAI reached 2051!
17:30:22  <Samu> next 2 are MailAI and AdmiralAI, nearly finishing at the same time
17:31:02  <Samu> only 23 days separating each other
17:31:28  <Samu> once again AdmiralAI surprises me how it effectively uses CPU
17:31:48  <Samu> and while having 2100+ trains
17:35:01  <andythenorth> in other news
17:35:02  <andythenorth>
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17:49:19  <Samu> Denver & Rio Grande finished
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17:52:23  <Samu> the last 10 years for Denver & Rio Grande was bad
17:53:27  <Samu> it has quite some bugs
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18:15:19  <Alberth> frosch123:  ugh, indeed
18:15:35  <Alberth> all too old and just extended locally
18:21:12  <Rubidium> andythenorth: how "fast" is "fast" in that clip?
18:22:10  <Wolf01> exactly XD
18:22:59  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I’m guessing 60mph
18:23:58  <andythenorth> Wolf01: the first guy (black jumper, spikey dark hair)
18:24:00  <andythenorth> that’s me
18:24:08  <andythenorth> looks like management
18:25:39  <Wolf01> :D
18:26:15  <V453000> :)
18:26:57  <andythenorth> looks like me too :P
18:27:18  * andythenorth should make Hog
18:27:30  <andythenorth> but is too angry about EU referendum campaigning
18:28:25  <frosch123> maybe read the german media about it :) not sure whether they would make you laugh or cry though :p
18:29:49  <andythenorth> :P
18:29:57  <andythenorth> in or out, I didn’t really care so much
18:30:16  * andythenorth back to trains
18:31:09  <Samu> DictatorAI reached 2051, but without building a single train
18:31:56  <Alberth> and not bankrupt? that's good :p
18:32:35  <Samu> managed loan qute well
18:33:22  <Samu> think i'm gonna exclude it from the list
18:34:59  <Samu> AIAI is the last to finish
18:35:15  <Samu> slows down the server from time to time
18:35:35  <frosch123> andythenorth: one article with a big headline talks about some small town, which once had an brittish army place, and what happened after it closed down. result: bakeries stay, brothels vanish
18:35:36  <Samu> needs 10 more years
18:36:13  <Samu> choochoo is finishing in a few months, it kind of disappointed
18:37:05  <Samu> doesn't replace old vehicles, doesn't upgrade them, keeps building routes but there's no more diesel engines available
18:37:22  <Samu> doesn't switch to monorail or maglev either
18:39:14  <Samu> oh, he has a few unfinished monorail and maglev routes
18:39:21  <Samu> :(
18:39:43  <Samu> i expected better, maybe limiting number of buses to 0 is handicaping him somewhat?
18:39:55  <Samu> I don't know what went wrong
18:42:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: hard to know what general conclusion to draw from that :)
18:44:20  <Samu> AIAI server is having fierce human interaction
18:44:24  <Samu> interesting
18:46:01  <Samu> ChooChoo finished
18:46:08  <Samu> last one remaining, AIAI
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18:46:25  <Samu> i don't have time to test more AIs today
18:52:17  <Arveen> you need an AI to test AIs
19:12:05  <Wormnest> Also why do you open up your ai test servers for humans if you want to compare them under equal circumstances
19:19:46  <Alberth> original author of NoCAB is gone and no longer reachable? else you could ask for ownership of the project
19:20:38  <Wormnest> I think he replied once this year
19:20:44  <Wormnest> on the forum
19:21:12  <Wormnest> I donÂŽt really want to take over just wanted a working ai without problems :p
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19:24:22  <Alberth> ownership is just taking over the stick :)
19:24:34  <Alberth> you can do as much or as less as you like
19:25:59  <Alberth> but otherwise,  WorkingCAB ?  :)
19:26:13  <Alberth> MovingCAB  :p
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19:27:02  <Wormnest> YesCAB ;)
19:27:56  <Alberth> haha :)   nice one
19:28:07  <Alberth> MaybeCAB  :p
19:36:43  <Wormnest> The name is not gonna be a problem lol. LetÂŽs if I can come up with some save/load improvements first.
19:38:36  <Alberth> would be nice
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19:53:30  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:07:51  <Samu> AIAI server is ending, last month
21:08:28  <Samu> he beat the humans in profit, i'm surprised
21:08:50  <Samu> red human surpassed him once
21:09:43  <Samu> it's over 2051!
21:12:22  <Samu> AIAI created a log size of 580 MB (608.456.870 bytes)
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