Log for #openttd on 22nd June 2016:
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07:46:30  <Wolf01> o/
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08:31:20  <peter1138> \o
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08:57:02  <Wolf01> but... but... but... the game was just updated, why does it need to update again? :(
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09:11:28  <V453000> too much hype
09:16:30  <Wolf01> yes, much
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09:54:36  <Wolf01> mmh, I think I'll switch to the most efficient layout for solar farms, at least I can spare one blueprint
09:58:58  <Alkel_U3> best layouts are the self-building ones with embeded roboports
09:59:32  <Alkel_U3> I don't mean in terms of efficiency, I just think it's cool :P
10:03:25  <Alkel_U3> hm, it would perhaps be nice to have charging stations that wouldn't provide housing to robots but still could charge them. Now I have to build large amount of superfluous roboports to act mostly as chargers near the densest logistics areas (mostly the one where I get stuff into my inventory)
10:03:55  <Alkel_U3> those would be either smaller or provide more charging ports
10:05:36  <Alkel_U3> hm, I see there have been mods for that
10:07:22  <Wolf01> the problem is that I wouldn't need roboports in the middle of nowhere
10:07:34  <Wolf01> but I think I'll place one in the middle of each cell too
10:08:20  <Alkel_U3> I also don't really need those six rows of laser turrets, but... :D
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10:37:12  <Samu> there's a lot of refit code
10:37:50  <Samu> i'd like to try a change somewhere in the code relating to refits inside ship depots
10:38:14  <Samu> if there's not enough money for refit, the game currently stops the ship
10:38:42  <Samu> i'd like it not to stop the ship, refit regardless of cost
10:38:54  <Samu> let it go into negative
10:39:06  <Samu> where would this be in teh code?
10:52:31  <Samu> think i  found it
10:52:40  <Samu> vehicle.cpp line 1440
11:04:12  <Wolf01> bah, these high efficiency layouts don't work
11:04:52  <Wolf01> I don't need layouts which recharge in no time :|
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11:15:30  <Samu> refit code too complex
11:15:33  <Samu> :(
11:23:20  <V453000> youtube is down, how can I work?
11:25:15  <Samu>
11:25:45  <Samu>
11:26:14  <V453000> that's dumb
11:26:36  <V453000> even porn is more productive than that
11:28:52  <Samu> vidme is like imgur
11:28:57  <Samu> but for videos
11:33:33  <V453000> yes, bullshit
11:33:39  <Samu>
11:36:55  <Alkel_U3> it's back on, you can get back to work :P
11:36:59  <Wolf01> V453000, brightcove or vimeo
11:37:13  <Alkel_U3> or dailymotion
11:37:13  <V453000>
11:37:43  <Samu> those require registering an account
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11:38:28  <V453000> lolno
11:38:31  <Samu> i've been using onedrive though, but i hear some ppl can't see the videos i use
11:38:47  <Wolf01> samu, he wanted to view videos
11:38:47  <Samu> and it needs a microsoft account...
11:39:05  <Samu> oh, really? :(
11:39:30  <Samu> thought it was for uploading
11:39:38  <Wolf01> it's a graphics designer job to watch at videos the entire day to get new ideas
11:39:48  <Wolf01> ;)
11:40:50  <Samu> sorry then
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11:43:24  <Wolf01> mmm I really need 2.5:1 instead of the 0.84 suggested for an extreme efficient layout for solar farms
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11:47:18  <Samu> EXPENSES_SHIP_RUN
11:47:36  <V453000> EXACTLY Wolf01 I will suggest it at our next meeting
11:47:41  <V453000> watching videos to get inspired
11:47:56  <V453000> also, tbh completely ignore the 0.84 ... at least that's what I do
11:47:59  <V453000> because it makes no sense
11:48:16  <Wolf01> thats what my coworkers always did ;)
11:48:22  <V453000> it only works if your factory has the precise amount of solar panels you need, if it never stops working, if if if
11:48:36  <V453000> the only safe solution is have shitload of solar panels, shitload of accumulators, both in excess
11:48:48  <V453000> in general I get a lot of accumulators to have room for laser defense draining and shit
11:49:02  <V453000> mainly shit
11:50:39  <Wolf01> and behemots are starting to give me some troubles
11:51:28  <Alkel_U3> it's nice to have half-a-day worth of spare energy storage so you have time to realize you accidentaly cut of your largest solar farm
11:51:45  <Wolf01> oh, shit... I don't think I can go further this way... the map is all red :|
11:52:25  <V453000> yeah or even that Alkel_U3
11:52:26  <Alkel_U3> just power armour your way through :-)
11:52:38  <V453000> but in my 0.13 playthrough I am going to use no solar panels, no accumulators, no laser turrets
11:52:43  <V453000> just steam all the way
11:52:51  <Wolf01> whoa, I can count at least 15 behemots on the smallest nest
11:52:52  * V453000 haz plans
11:53:10  <Wolf01> ion cannon mod, here I come
11:53:10  <V453000> yeah behemoths have a big power spike, they are suddenly there and they are much stronger than big biters :D
11:53:40  <Alkel_U3> fortunately also slow
11:53:57  <Wolf01> "slow"
11:54:02  <Alkel_U3> ulike, say, trains :P
11:54:02  <V453000> I don't think they are slower than normal biters
11:54:04  <V453000> but I am not sure
11:54:32  <Wolf01> the problem is that they are spitters, so they are able to wipe my outposts
11:55:19  <Wolf01> the biters are attacking the tracks between outposts too, they seem to have learnt to avoid turrets
11:56:07  <Alkel_U3> hm, maybe it was bigger colision boxes so they'd be getting stuck more often? Usually when I have whole hell on my tail running towards nearest laser-equiped outpost the small ones arrive first, then mediums and then bigs
11:56:28  <V453000> hm not sure
11:56:43  <Alkel_U3> behemoth spitters are kinda a concern, yes :P
11:56:52  <Wolf01> shit, they just wiped out the outpost
11:56:56  <V453000> Wolf01, natives always prefer military shit, radars, pollution shit
11:57:07  <V453000> they go towards pollution, and wreck military/radars on the way there
11:57:17  <V453000> they seem to focus radars sometimes too
11:57:26  <Wolf01> no pollution, I'm building a railway
11:57:39  <Wolf01> and place outposts at regular intervals
11:57:40  <V453000> yeah well when they get into idle state or something, they also eat railways
11:57:43  <V453000> maybe sometimes just for a snack
11:58:01  <V453000> a bit of ballast can't hurt
11:58:26  <Wolf01> trenches, laser fences, traps...
11:58:33  <Wolf01> modsmodsmods
11:58:36  <Alkel_U3> spitters get physical attack from that, when they spit sleepers and railway ties at you :D
11:58:53  <Alkel_U3> wait
11:59:18  <V453000> just make a laser turret wall everywhere :P
11:59:48  <Alkel_U3> I meant the other thing that ties the rail to the tie... nevermind
12:00:01  <Wolf01> I built a laser turret wall :D
12:00:13  <Wolf01> but I might need to make it 3 rows
12:00:33  <Alkel_U3> try that cannonturret mod :D
12:00:44  <Wolf01> I'll go for the artillery
12:01:35  <Wolf01> 0.11... 0.11... meh.11
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12:04:40  <V453000> 3 rows or go home
12:05:00  <Wolf01> need a more reliable tank, the base one is shit at late game
12:08:41  <V453000> yeah
12:08:47  <V453000> I like the Super Tank mod
12:08:55  <V453000> OP as fuck but why not really
12:09:09  <V453000> it's not like flying combat robots are exactly satisfying
12:09:24  <V453000> but yeah combat overhaul is probably coming in 0.14
12:09:39  <Wolf01> I'm trying with defender capsules but they don't like to kill too much
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12:13:07  <Alkel_U3> defenders really don't fare well againts behemots or bigs
12:13:25  <Alkel_U3> destroyers in good numbers on th other hand...
12:15:49  <Alkel_U3> also this :D
12:18:08  <Wolf01> it seem I can't see that video
12:19:39  <Alkel_U3> it's a fighter jet of sorts with rockets
12:20:18  <Alkel_U3>
12:20:23  <Wolf01> oh, now it works
12:21:07  <Alkel_U3> oh, cool feature I didn't know youtube has - you have to know what the wideo's about to be able to load it. Nice!
12:21:36  <Wolf01> lol
12:21:53  <Samu> i dont know how to change this refit thing
12:22:18  <Samu> a ship has an order to go to ship depot to refit
12:22:54  <Samu> if the company has enough money, it refits, but if it doesn't, it stops the ship
12:23:03  <Samu> i want to avoid the vehicle to stop
12:23:22  <Samu> i want to either wait for money, then refit
12:23:34  <Samu> or just refit and letthe company go into negative balance
12:23:43  <Samu> code is too complex
12:24:17  <Samu> stopping the vehicle is a bad solution, especially when dealing with a large company
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12:39:41  <Samu> wait for money is probably the better solution, rather than letting company go into negative
12:40:12  <Samu> ship waits inside depot until company gets money
12:40:25  <Samu> once it gets, it refits and releases ship
12:40:39  <Samu> something like a red signal / green signal
12:40:53  <Samu> dunno how feasible this is
12:42:00  <Samu> if it doesn't get money after a long while, maybe display a news message
12:42:16  <Samu> kinda like a train waiting too long on a red signal
12:49:28  <Wolf01> isn't it already like that?
12:51:55  <Wolf01> heh, my current factorio game:
12:52:09  <V453000> exactly how it should be then
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12:54:25  <Samu> it isn't, maybe some newgrf does that
12:54:33  <Samu> i see tons of newgrf codes in-between
12:54:44  <Samu> original vehicles don't do it
12:55:02  <Samu> i never use newgrfs, so i don't really know
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12:56:14  <Alkel_U3> no it isn't, the bugs should be aflame
12:58:29  <V453000> just make refit always cost 0
12:58:30  <V453000> gg
12:58:48  <V453000> haha Alkel_U3 probably sees my current testing savegame :P
13:00:58  <Alkel_U3> I had a hunch that was part of that 'no lasers' earlier :P
13:01:20  <V453000> :>
13:01:43  <V453000> I want to test how do flamethrowers+gun turrets deal vs behemoth problems
13:02:22  <V453000> and how much excess oil do I need to feed all that fiery mayhem
13:03:06  <Alkel_U3> does it accept fuel directly from the pipe? :D
13:03:16  <Alkel_U3> I very much hope it does!
13:03:22  <V453000> yeah, there is no other way to feed them
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13:03:41  <V453000> also, if you build multiple of them next to each other, the pipe works as a pipe, it just has the fluid going  through
13:03:56  <V453000> but you probably don't want to make gigantic arrays of them, just one every while
13:04:03  <V453000> PROBABLY. :>
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13:04:39  <Alkel_U3> Awesome! :-) Well, the other way would be canisters of fuel like for the handheld flamethrower now. That would be lame :P
13:10:06  <Samu> there's a massive input slowdown on NoCAB ship server
13:10:12  <Samu> t.t
13:11:34  <Samu> too many ships lost
13:11:47  <Samu> i see most AIs fail at positioning ship depots
13:11:56  <Samu> they block
13:12:21  <Samu> otvi is really spamming ship depots
13:12:30  <Samu> really bad
13:12:55  <V453000> Yeah it would be too similar to gun turrets Alkel_U3 , you could as well put the flamethrower cannisters into those and call it a new feature
13:13:30  <V453000> though my plan is to deliver crude oil to outposts, refine it there, send sulfur+plastic back to main base, use light oil as ammo
13:14:39  <Alkel_U3> to draw more attention to the proximity of the turrets? :-)
13:24:23  <Samu> there's not easy way to find depots on the minimap
13:24:27  <Samu> not an*
13:25:12  <Samu> only company property shows them, but it's just by the company color
13:27:06  <Wolf01> I'd be happy with a firestorm generator :/
13:27:42  <Samu> dictatorai has someships with a single order
13:27:47  <Samu> t.t
13:30:44  <Wolf01> V, do you think it will be possible to have terrain edges one day, like the command&conquer ones?
13:34:39  <V453000> what terrain edges?
13:34:47  <V453000> like cliffs? or?
13:36:13  <Wolf01> like cliffs, just to add some variation
13:37:07  <Wolf01> also: I noticed some interesting artwork here :P
13:40:21  <V453000> yeah cliffs would be nice but idk when that might happen
13:40:27  <Samu> wmDOT issue ->
13:40:30  <V453000> terrain will get some improvements in 0.14, just don't know what exactly
13:41:14  <V453000> also, that deviantart webpage is Pavel
13:41:22  <Wolf01> lol :D
13:41:29  <V453000> the guy who was fired so I am now in his place
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13:43:28  <V453000> his artwork is nice, but working with him was a pain
13:45:50  <Wolf01> I might know the kind of person
13:47:08  <Wolf01> mmmh, what is with game devs these days? steam games getting updated 2-3 times on the same day :|
13:58:01  <supermop> yo
13:59:59  <Wolf01> o/
14:00:30  <peter1138> remember when games were released when finished...?
14:00:54  <Wolf01> it must be long time ago, because I don't
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14:21:11  <Wolf01> o/
14:32:20  <Alberth> moin
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14:49:33  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that's a perception bias. games weren't finished, they were just "done", because distributing patches was so hard
14:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of games that were rushed to market and just ended up terrible
14:52:33  <Eddi|zuHause> also, games where you found out years later that there was like a 1.4 patch, but it never got to you
14:55:49  <Samu> 90 degrees and ship depots is tough for AIs to deal with
14:58:52  <Wolf01> 26°C and my AI doesn't work well
15:02:20  <Samu> major issue with ship AIs as I see it, is ship depots blocking
15:02:40  <Samu> i am allowing 90 degrees turns
15:02:58  <Samu> it helps a bit, but not in all cases
15:03:12  <Samu> with forbidden 90 degrees it would be way worse
15:04:14  <Samu> otvi ai is really careless with ship depot positioning
15:04:52  <Samu> sometimes he puts depots on a valid connection
15:04:59  <Samu> turns out it blocks it
15:05:19  <Samu> then he releases the ship from that same depot, they're lost on the let go
15:05:50  <Samu> NoCAB has similar issue
15:05:58  <Samu> not as blatant as otvi
15:06:03  <Samu> but it's also there
15:07:28  <Samu> nocab however masses ships on blocked connections to the point it slows down the whole game~
15:08:34  <Samu> there's also the half-tile water/half-tile land from towns
15:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> how are these two things correlated?
15:08:45  <Samu> when a house is built
15:09:04  <Samu> that half water tile is no longer allowing ship passage
15:09:13  <Samu> it can end up blocking
15:09:46  <Samu> same with bridge ramps
15:10:02  <Samu> this is a very tough situation for AIs to deal with
15:11:03  <Samu> with  90 degrees forced into the mix, there's just too many slowdowns
15:11:07  <Samu> blockages
15:11:24  <Samu> the game doesn't make it easy for AIs
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15:13:25  <Samu> rivers don't help, in fact, it is causing issues with dictatorAI, he's not aware that he needs to build locks
15:14:00  <Samu> 90 degrees and rivers is really hard, even from a human standpoint, to deal with
15:14:08  <Samu> can't imagine from an AI
15:16:18  <Samu> but ok, the most glaring issue for now, is ship depot placement
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15:18:11  <Samu> max distance from previous destination also seems to be another issue, but i don't suppose that to be too hard for AIs to solve
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15:19:31  <Samu> is there a pathfinder that allows any distance for ships?
15:19:40  <Samu> YAPF doesn't let it
15:19:58  <Samu> gonna try
15:22:09  <Samu> hmm NPF allows it
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15:22:22  <Samu> guess it's time to restart ship servers
15:30:18  <Samu> damn, i hate to do it, but i better restart all ship AIs with NPF, it appears to be less limiting than YAPF
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16:25:51  <Alberth> hola
16:26:49  <frosch123> hoi
16:31:10  <Wolf01> quak
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17:21:26  <supermop> yo Alkel_U3
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17:44:11  <Alkel_U3> supermop: yo
17:44:20  <supermop> hows it going
17:45:03  <Alkel_U3> just finished programming homework for an interview and I have very bad feelings about it. You?
17:46:05  <Alkel_U3> I was able to think of a solution, but I'm slow :(
17:48:00  <supermop> i am researching demountable partitions for a project, and hoping i do not need to specify the manufacturer i used to work for
17:57:43  <supermop> havent been on the server much but checking in on my company today
17:57:49  <supermop> still in the 60s
17:58:50  <Alkel_U3> I think Farkl was the only active in the past few days
17:59:50  <Alkel_U3> I had important party business from friday till sunday and toniht was the first solid sleep i had
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18:09:55  <supermop> parties are important business
18:10:07  <andythenorth> EU cat
18:10:14  <andythenorth> Catxit
18:10:24  <andythenorth> Leave Cat
18:10:26  <andythenorth> Remain Cat
18:10:38  <supermop> andythenorth: i don't even want to think about all that stuff anymore
18:10:41  <supermop> huge bummer
18:10:48  <Wolf01> o/
18:11:20  <Wolf01> now you can leave safely, I received what I purchased on England :P
18:11:36  <Alkel_U3>
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18:24:42  <Samu> just leave
18:24:51  <Samu> maybe the EU will die with it
18:25:07  <Samu> if u got the chance to leave, leave. Poor Greece didn't have that chance and see what happened to them
18:26:25  <Samu> EU is just germany
18:26:25  <andythenorth> it’s an argument yes
18:26:36  <Samu> there is no EU
18:26:41  <andythenorth> on the other hand, leaving legitimises racists and hands power to some very distasteful people
18:26:55  <andythenorth> and the EU is not just Germanu, Britain and France are substantial
18:27:00  <andythenorth> Germany *
18:27:13  * andythenorth is not a fan of the EU, but a pragmatist
18:32:08  <Samu> every time i see merkel and that weelchair dude... GOD... don't make me talk
18:38:15  * Rubidium wonders whether a leave vote will actually mean that the UK stops abiding by the EU rules, because arguably the UK won't get a free trade agreement without agreeing to following the EU rules
18:38:54  <Rubidium> and in that case it'll get significantly harder to export goods to the EU
18:39:05  <Hiddenfunstuff> EU is evil
18:39:07  <Rubidium> but well... not my problem
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18:44:42  <andythenorth> Rubidium: is my problem eh
18:45:32  <supermop> Samu: if your worry is that the eu is dominated by germany, then keeping other, non german, large economies inside the EU is the solution
18:46:04  <supermop> an eu without UK is a lot more german than one with the UK
18:46:37  <supermop> tbh i'd prefer to see the US in the EU as well
18:48:05  <andythenorth> ha ha ha
18:48:19  <supermop> rather work and life are a lot more practical the fewer state and semi-state level entities with differing rules you have to abide
18:49:31  <supermop> Rubidium: my dad works for a vendor that supplies to several clients in UK and EU, even though they are an american company with majority american clients
18:49:41  <supermop> and they still have to follow all the EU rules
18:49:56  <supermop> regarding privacy, data, etc
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18:51:14  <supermop> i am in an industry less affected, and most of our offshore projects are in China, so not as much of an issue for us
18:51:31  <andythenorth> yeah, we won’t use vendors that don’t comply with safe harbour or guarantee not to offshore certain kinds of data
18:51:52  <andythenorth> we have to do the same to sell into Australia and NZ though
18:52:32  <andythenorth> on Friday we’ll have to assess our EU vendors
18:52:39  <andythenorth> as we won’t have any clear legal framework
18:52:52  <supermop> five eyes might as well make a union
18:52:56  <andythenorth> and we’ll be assessed by our EU customers
18:53:00  <andythenorth> PITA
18:53:42  <supermop> andythenorth: better off if all the EU were a single state
18:54:09  <andythenorth> again, ha ha ha ha
18:54:09  <andythenorth> no
18:55:27  <supermop> andythenorth: not saying desirable, just that you'd have fewer sets of rules to look at
18:56:00  <andythenorth> “supermop’s single global state”
18:56:03  <andythenorth> “the new world order"
18:56:15  <Wolf01> 'night
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19:05:05  <supermop> andythenorth: has a nice ring to it
19:05:10  <Samu> it's the solution? germany is the only country thriving with this so called "European Union", the member states have nearly no power, they are being subjugated (being milked money of) to feed the fat lords of germany
19:05:26  <Samu> i rather see it all fall apart
19:05:30  <supermop> i assume my photo will be ubiquitous in public spaces
19:05:59  <supermop> Samu: if you are an EU citizen you could move to germany
19:06:03  <andythenorth> Samu: where are you living?
19:06:11  <Samu> port
19:06:22  <supermop> yum
19:06:24  <Eddi|zuHause> * Rubidium wonders whether a leave vote will actually mean that the UK stops abiding by the EU rules, because arguably the UK won't get a free trade agreement without agreeing to following the EU rules <-- a leave vote will change nothing, because the referendum is not actually binding.
19:06:40  <supermop> ok i'd stay in port to drink the port
19:07:04  * andythenorth has found there’s no convincing leavers
19:07:13  <andythenorth> it’s an emotional decision, hard to argue with
19:07:20  <Samu> portugal
19:10:16  <Samu> while we get €500 / month, the gers get €5000 and still think it's too little
19:11:14  <Alkel_U3> do you actually blame the eu for that?
19:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand how they even allowed it to be a discussion
19:11:48  <Alberth> actually, rich countries tend to pay more to the EU than they get
19:11:50  <Samu> i still dont get why turkey accepted being part of EU...
19:12:07  <Samu> but ok, another countryto milk money off
19:12:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but rich countries also benefit more from access to markets and stuff
19:13:14  <Alberth> yeah, I have no problems with it, just saying germany is not actually profiting as much as Samu claims
19:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you include the rebates that britain already gets on membership fees, it's really not that much
19:13:29  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: but a poor country with an export dependent economy probably needs an expanded market more than a big country does
19:14:06  <supermop> germany could do fine selling german goods to germans
19:14:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the brits are just still mad that they lost their "empire"
19:14:22  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: you have obviously no clue how the german economy works
19:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> germany would be FUCKED if it exports stopped
19:14:49  <supermop> greek companies that export need non greek buyers
19:15:36  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: now yes, but one could imagine that an industrial economy of that size at least has a higher proportion of internal buyers than say, lichtenstein
19:15:37  <Alberth> that would be the definition of export, right? :)
19:15:56  <supermop> how much does Hilti sell within lichtenstein?
19:18:02  <supermop> Samu: portugal exports more to EU than it imports
19:18:39  <Samu> UK is number 1 or 2 exporter i think
19:19:01  <Samu> UK leaving EU will definitely affect Portugal
19:19:07  <supermop> per capita or gross??
19:19:41  <Samu> no idea, news were saying Port is the 4th most affected country if Uk exits
19:20:12  <Samu> port also exports a lot to ger and spain
19:20:25  <supermop>
19:20:35  <supermop> breaks it down by percentage
19:21:00  <supermop> spain naturally biggest partner for both imports and exports
19:21:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it should never have come to a referendum
19:21:42  <andythenorth> but eh
19:22:04  <Samu> we import too much from spain
19:22:13  <Samu> way toooo much
19:22:32  <Alberth> stop buying spanish sun :)
19:22:35  <Samu> it's cheaper to buy spanish products than portuguese products which make little sense
19:22:43  <Samu> but that's how it goes in portugal
19:23:01  <NGC3982> Out of context
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19:23:10  <NGC3982> We Swedes have a very distorted view on Spane and Portugal
19:23:18  <NGC3982> Most Swedes seems to think it's some kind of paradise.
19:23:47  <supermop> samu, surely some things are more efficient to manufacture in spain?
19:25:02  <supermop> and then some other things might make more sense to make in portugal
19:25:16  <frosch123> supermop: if you expand the "export goods" and "import goods" lists on that wiki page, the lists are almost identical
19:25:55  <supermop> frosch123: does not seem to be a highly specialized economy?
19:26:10  <supermop> more generalist
19:27:26  <supermop> but i dont see what EU membership has to do with make up of economy in that regard
19:29:18  <frosch123> me neither, i just pitty whoever adds those stuff to wiki
19:30:02  <supermop> my fiancee used to have to write regular white papers on all that stuff every 2 weeks
19:30:15  <supermop> for several economies
19:30:23  <supermop> mostly in south east asia
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19:30:45  <frosch123> well, if they change every 2 weeks, the economies might be more interesting :po
19:31:25  <supermop> haha
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19:31:58  <supermop> central banks reexamine that stuff all the time even if nothing changes
19:32:12  <supermop> she found it deeply, truly boring
19:32:33  <andythenorth> EU economy in FIRS
19:32:37  <andythenorth> exports: malaise
19:32:42  <andythenorth> imports: stuff from China
19:32:45  <supermop> mayonaise?
19:33:03  <supermop> i like malaise on my fries
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19:34:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like marmelade on my fries
19:34:45  <frosch123> did you try?
19:35:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
19:36:19  <andythenorth> you have preconceptions?
19:36:25  <andythenorth> but no empirical test?
19:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that how the world works?
19:37:17  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: apparently
19:37:24  <Eddi|zuHause> most of the people that hate immigrants have never actually spent more than 5 minutes with an immigrant
19:37:48  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: or more than 0
19:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> they might have passed one in the mall
19:38:21  <Rubidium> I'd rather say... most people who hate immigrants are immigrants themselves
19:38:32  <Alberth> 5 seems like a safe over approximation
19:39:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: in america? probably, in europe? depends how many centuries back you want to define "immigrant" :p
19:40:05  <Rubidium> do you still live in the neighbourhood you were born in?
19:40:30  <andythenorth> for the profile of people in the UK who are most concerned about immigration, yes, typically
19:40:42  <Eddi|zuHause> how far is "neighbourhood"?
19:40:53  <Rubidium> a few blocks maybe
19:40:56  <Samu> that's surprising to see france ranked high in the exportation
19:41:04  <andythenorth> cheese!
19:41:15  <andythenorth> also France owns most of the UK’s utilities
19:41:18  <Rubidium> the whole point is that immigration is defined by people crossing some arbitrary boundary
19:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i was born in a hospital, i did not live there for more than 2 weeks :p
19:41:19  <andythenorth> is that export or import? :P
19:41:33  <andythenorth> Eddi immigrated to the EU :P
19:41:39  <andythenorth> by statute
19:41:40  <Alberth> :)
19:41:52  <andythenorth> dunno if he actually moved
19:41:54  <Samu> Angola will be exporting less, they got some Oil crisis now
19:42:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: err, i think that was the other way around. the EU moved here :p
19:42:01  <Samu> or importing, that is
19:42:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: did we colonise you? o_O
19:42:18  <Eddi|zuHause> sorta :p
19:42:21  <Samu> uk will exit, so uk will import less from port
19:42:33  <Samu> all good news
19:42:36  <andythenorth> UK will import about the same
19:42:53  <andythenorth> it will make fuck all real difference to trade patterns
19:43:18  <Samu> germany can very much do whatever they please
19:43:30  <andythenorth> no Germany can’t
19:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how does "financial" fit into "real trade"?
19:43:36  <Samu> france, honestly, has a lot of portuguese communities there, but i dunno
19:43:40  <andythenorth> Germany needs to sell things oversea
19:43:44  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no idea
19:43:50  <andythenorth> these things are above my pay grade eh
19:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because from what i hear, those people are really really scared of a "brexit"
19:44:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: move to scortland?
19:44:07  <frosch123> -r
19:44:26  <andythenorth> frosch123: Scotland is not yet independent :)
19:44:58  <frosch123> maybe we can trade bavaria for scotland?
19:45:04  <NGC3982> I don't understand why this is a thing all of the sudden. Many EU countries has for a long time been sceptical to EU itself, but most people agree that tantruming out of it is not really good for anyone.
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19:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> did the catalans declare independence yet?
19:49:46  <andythenorth> NGC3982: it’s good for certain politicians who can gain power from it
19:49:48  <andythenorth> broadly
19:50:02  <andythenorth> and it sells newspapers
19:50:51  <supermop> Samu: englishmen drink port regardless of trade agreements
19:51:35  <andythenorth> my office is in a building which was a cork warehouse, which was for the portugal trade
19:52:12  <Eddi|zuHause> cork as in the city or the material?
19:52:20  <supermop> also, wouldn't you prefer the UK to buy more from Portugal, not less?
19:52:23  <andythenorth> material
19:53:16  <Samu> I don't want an EU, pretty much.
19:53:49  <Samu> or at least Portugal being part of it
19:54:08  <supermop> ok, but what exactly is the strategy for portugal's economy in that case?
19:54:53  <Samu> we don't sell much of what is ours internally
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19:55:05  <Samu> it's where our government should start
19:55:10  <Samu> we have that much sea
19:55:20  <Samu> for what?
19:55:21  <supermop> who says you have that much sea
19:56:02  * andythenorth must to bed
19:56:03  <andythenorth> have fun
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19:56:17  <supermop> surely the EU helps to make sure bigger countries respect the laws regarding what you have
19:56:19  <frosch123> i like the brexit, it replaced the us elections in the news :)
19:56:49  <Samu> Portugal only wants to "look good" from the outside
19:56:52  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: be assured that the US elections make a comeback. they take FOREVER
19:57:00  <Samu> but it's terrible to live here
19:57:13  <supermop> frosch123: one party picked a candidate so bad it is really tough to convince people he is currently competitive in the media
19:57:41  <frosch123> i thought both parties picked bad candidate?
19:57:45  <Samu> it's good for tourists to buy spanish imported products?...
19:57:59  <Samu> in portugal?
19:58:01  <Rubidium> the 2014 EU budget is interesting... I did contribution to EU - expenditures to member states, divided that by the number of inhabitants and multiplied the number by 1 000 000 to get numbers in a "decent" range. NL +260, SE +222, DE +177, UK +68, EL -482, LT -531, LU -2700 (Luxembourg really has a good deal)
19:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause> was there ever a possibility of picking a non-bad candidate?
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19:58:34  <supermop> so once the primaries wrapped up there is nothing meaningful for the next few months
19:58:43  <supermop> just empty rhetoric to fill time
19:59:18  <supermop> frosch123: depends on what you mean by bad
19:59:20  <Rubidium> it amazes me that Germany gets all the EU money because the budget does not seem to confirm that. In absolute terms Poland gets most money, after that France, Spain and only then Germany
20:00:09  <supermop> but i hold 'deeply unpopular' to be less bad than 'racist provocateur'
20:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not sure what these numbers actually say
20:00:38  <Rubidium> in absolute terms DE pays most, then France, then Italy followed by the UK
20:01:58  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it should be "cost" per capita according to the EU budget to be part of the EU
20:02:17  <frosch123> euro per year and capita?
20:02:30  <Rubidium> yeah, it seems like it
20:02:41  <frosch123> or 10^-6 euro per year and capita?
20:03:25  <supermop> Rubidium: none of the arguments i hear ever seem to account for population for some reason
20:03:28  <frosch123> nah, that would be unlikely :)
20:03:36  <Rubidium> given the numbers for contribution being 6 391 for the NLs, I assume it to be 6 391 000 000 euro's
20:03:48  <Samu> our most prominent problem is Isabel dos Santos
20:04:06  <Rubidium> (being 6 391 in the table I got)
20:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a lot
20:04:20  <Rubidium> that's where the 10^-6 comes from
20:04:25  <Samu> that lady is taking control of major economic stuff from Portugal, her position is....
20:04:27  <Samu> ... problematic
20:04:50  <Samu> stuff related to Angola
20:05:03  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 6*10^9 is more plausible than 6*10^6 :)
20:05:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but it probably should be compared to the rest of the budget
20:05:12  <Samu> she owns some major bank stuff from Portugal
20:05:59  <Samu> the risk is high, now with Angola entering a crisis
20:06:05  <Rubidium> and I doubt the Dutch can afford 380 000 per capita, and 0,38 per capita seems a bit small given the large amounts of subsidies
20:06:20  <Samu> and her nomination to rule even more stuff, she's being given too much power
20:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i always have this figure in my head that 50% of the EU budget is for farming subsidies, but apparently that was only valid in 2000, since then, the farming subsidies stayed constant, but the EU budget grew by like factor 8
20:06:57  <frosch123> yeah, i think it was reduced
20:07:07  <frosch123> now it is spend on banks :p
20:08:09  <frosch123> can we cancel brittish loans when they leave eu?
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20:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds unlikely :p
20:08:36  <Samu> wish i could undestand better these economic exposures, but Portugal is in a tough situation already with Angola entering a crisis, and with UK exiting EU.
20:08:37  <Rubidium> frosch123: I hope those loans are in Euros
20:09:46  <supermop> Samu: can study macroeconomics
20:10:30  <supermop> although if uk leaves EU you will not be able to use your econ degree to get a job in london anymore
20:11:18  <supermop> my fiancee was an economist for years until she became so bored with it
20:11:45  <Samu> that would be good, if only our country was properly decent at keeping their workforce
20:12:00  <Alkel_U3> oh my, Limbo for free on Steam
20:12:53  <Samu> they're probably migrating to switzerland of france, most likely
20:13:13  <Samu> cus working in portugal is bad
20:13:46  <supermop> why is working in portugal bad?
20:14:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: a discussion in another channel said that offer already expired
20:14:16  <Samu> why earn €800 if u can earn £2000 or €2500
20:15:12  <supermop> depends on what you want in life
20:15:19  <supermop> and what you want to pay in rent
20:15:33  <frosch123> supermop: <- unemploymentrates for people younger than 25
20:15:46  <supermop> i have many friends who have remained in my home town
20:15:57  <Rubidium> <- actual numbers + sources
20:15:59  <Alkel_U3> Eddi|zuHause: ah, that must've been 15 ,ins ago, then
20:16:02  <supermop> where there are fewer jobs, and less pay
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20:16:23  <supermop> but they enjoy it i guess
20:17:48  <supermop> i have the freedom to move about within a large country of 330M people, to choose the city that is the best fit in terms of cost of living, jobs, and culture that i want
20:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Alkel_U3: more like 2 hours
20:18:04  <supermop> relative freedom - it is expensive to move
20:18:30  <Alkel_U3> I lag that much?
20:18:36  <supermop> and no city is a perfect fit
20:18:47  <supermop> but at least i can leave a bad area
20:19:48  <supermop> the EU brings some measure of that to europe
20:20:42  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:21:04  <supermop> if one country is short of labor, and one country is short of jobs, why not let people from the second country work in the first?
20:21:39  <frosch123> supermop: that only works for high-tier jobs
20:22:09  <frosch123> for low-tier jobs the language barriers are too high
20:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the perception is that no country is actually short on labor
20:24:11  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: that is the perception, sure, but some countries certainly do have a need to attract more labor, which is why they see wages higher than others
20:24:30  <frosch123> <- page 5 contains some numbers
20:26:24  <supermop> i certainly do not think, however, that every EU country must have it's own independent heavy industrial base, selling exclusively within its own borders
20:27:38  <supermop> and UK leaving the EU is not suddenly going to make british steel somehow competive again
20:28:42  <supermop> if the UK comes up with the money to subsidize its steel, then what customer country would want to buy that rather than subsidize their own steel production
20:30:27  <supermop> i'm not even sure what people are arguing for, other than spite
20:30:47  <supermop> every leave argument i've seen boils down to spite
20:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i have seen a lot of arguments either way
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20:50:55  <Samu> i'm posting stuff to flyspray, some fixes of my own, but i don't know the whole process of posting bugfixes
20:51:13  <Samu> what does it take to accept a fix from a random guy?
20:53:19  <Samu> ah i see alberth rejected my proposal for save empty script
20:53:23  <Samu> :|
21:18:10  <Samu> in 8 years, SImpleAI server will finish
21:18:21  <Samu> a trains server
21:20:03  <Samu> ship servers are taxing cpu quite heavily
21:20:13  <Samu> i should have known
21:20:20  <Samu> cpu is at 100%
21:20:39  <ST2> yeah, it's a known fact - that's why most of online communities limits them ^^
21:21:27  <ST2> pathfinder eats cpu's on there - or burn them, in case you dnt have the server on a well cooled datacenter xD
21:22:24  <ST2> I guess that's why one of our rented machines are in a Canadian datacenter xD
21:22:28  <Samu> i got some AIs that are heavy
21:23:09  <Samu> nocab is using 2700 ships atm, but most of these ships are blocked by his own ship depots :( the pathfinder isn't too keen on blockages
21:24:12  <Samu> otvi suffers from the same
21:24:25  <Samu> otvi spams ship depots, like they're trees or something... it's really bad
21:24:45  *** smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium]
21:25:05  <Samu> then i got a nocab server utterly slowed down since 3 days ago
21:25:10  <Samu> with his trains
21:25:28  <Samu> these 3 servers are taxing 37.5% cpu
21:25:35  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
21:25:46  <Samu> 2 spectating instances are also taxing 25%
21:26:39  <Samu> the rest is 1 more train server about to finish, 4 more ship servers and respective spectating instances
21:26:56  <Samu> everything counted taxes 100%, oh well
21:28:11  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:29:48  <Samu> hmm i really don't get some pathfinders, it's like none is good
21:31:10  <Samu> NPF advantage, ships can have orders of any distance, but apparently it fails for short distances
21:31:45  <Samu> feels like some AIs prefer certain pathfinders than others
21:32:15  <Samu> I'm disappointed, I don't know how to test these AIs
21:33:15  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
21:34:24  <Samu> - how's it possible the ships can't find the way around that?
21:37:29  *** Gja [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:37:30  <Samu> how do i set the max distance between routes for YAPF?
21:38:05  <Samu> YAPF isn't as dumb as NPF, but the max distance limitation ruins ditactorai
21:38:43  <Samu> NPF ruins Trans
21:39:02  <Samu> YAPF ruins DitactorAI.... I can't submit the AIs to the same parameters
21:39:10  <Samu> what to do :(
21:39:45  <Samu> and the Original ruins everybody
21:40:27  * Samu slaps Wormnest around a bit with a large fishbot
21:42:03  <Samu> testing ships is becoming harder than i expected
21:43:20  <Wormnest> ThereÂŽs a good reason why ships are not used as much as other vehicles, certainly in high amounts
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21:47:22  <Samu> think i'm gonna do this the hard way
21:47:57  <NGC3982> trout!
21:48:20  <Samu> trans YAPF, trans Original, trans NPF
21:48:41  <Samu> DitactorAI YAPF, DitactorAI Original, DitactorAI NPF
21:48:42  <Samu> etc
21:48:57  <Samu> instead of 6 testings, it's 18
21:49:03  <Samu> but at least it's fairer
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22:17:58  * Jakethasnake slaps Jakethasnake around a bit with a large fishbot
22:18:54  <Hiddenfunstuff> night tastes good, day tastes dry
22:19:04  <Hiddenfunstuff> almost like.. humid kerosene smell you have in airports..
22:23:16  <Jakethasnake> Fumbi
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22:25:11  *** Keridos_ is now known as Keridos
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22:43:29  <supermop> i think damn it
22:43:49  <supermop> i bought like 5 turner turbos instead of passenger cars
22:44:02  <supermop> that was like 60% of my cash on hand
22:47:49  *** NoShlomo|Rejoined [~NoShlomo@] has joined #openttd
22:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you can immediately sell them for no money loss
22:54:44  *** NoShlomo [~NoShlomo@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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23:10:15  <Samu> last year for SimpleAI
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23:20:53  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
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23:26:37  <Samu> SimpleAI finished!
23:27:45  <Samu> cpu usage is still 100% t.t

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