Log for #openttd on 3rd September 2016:
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04:54:14  <Lejving> what does a queue between two cities mean in the timetable?
04:54:44  <Lejving> like, I want to decrease the amount of allowed trains between point A and B, do I increase the travel time or decrease?
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06:55:52  <andythenorth> o/
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08:04:01  <andythenorth> meh
08:06:09  <andythenorth> asymmetrical things are bad
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09:01:10  <Wolf01> o/
09:01:33  <frosch123> o/
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09:25:56  <Lejving> my 16 stations are not keeping up anymore =/
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09:29:12  <Alberth> moin
09:48:40  <frosch123> bah, factorio doesn't follow ottd coding style
09:49:48  <Wolf01> Since when you have rights to look in factorio code? :D
09:50:26  <frosch123> there are 7 lines in yesterdays fff
09:50:41  <Wolf01> Oh shit, missed it
09:52:04  <Wolf01> Btw, they have automated tests, we have just asserts... a bit of unit testing in OTTD should be a good idea
09:52:10  <frosch123> V removed the weird blue outline of the underground belts
09:52:21  <frosch123> Wolf01: we have make regression
09:52:24  <Wolf01> Oh nice
09:52:28  <frosch123> it runs on the compile farm on every commit
09:53:00  <frosch123> other than that we have hundreds of unpaid teenagers
09:53:14  <Wolf01> Oh, cool hi-res pack! Good job v
09:54:29  <Wolf01> "hundreds"... "teenagers", the majority of OTTD players is 30-50 IMO
09:55:10  <frosch123> adult people do not play citybuilder :p
09:55:23  <frosch123> look at samu
09:55:48  <Wolf01> Samu looks like a 12yo indeed
09:56:58  <Wolf01> Btw, I'm having a discussion with VS about visual styles of images in UWP... I need to get rid of some weird problems
09:58:11  <Wolf01> I don't know if it's better to set up a VisualState or try with a converter from "Image = ''" to "Visibility"
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14:42:26  <V453000> frosch123: :P
14:43:05  <Alberth> o/
14:47:29  <V453000> hi :_
14:47:31  <V453000> :)
14:51:52  <Snail> I have a question for Andy if he’s here
14:51:57  <V453000> yeah, in the last month I do hi res belts at work, come home, do hires brix for a change
14:55:00  <andythenorth> Snail:
14:55:02  <andythenorth> o/
14:55:09  <Snail> hey Andy
14:55:27  <Wolf01> V, do you have hires real life?
14:55:29  <Snail> so, I’m working to implement your “new” cargoes (cassava, beans, coffee…)
14:55:45  <V453000> not sure Wolf01
14:55:48  <Snail> do you have any new cargoes in mind? or any you might add in the foreseeable future?
14:55:56  <V453000> but holding baby so is nice res
14:56:07  <Snail> otherwise I’d have to retouch my recoloring schemes and graphics every time your cargo list is changed ;)
14:56:16  <Wolf01> +1
14:56:31  <andythenorth> Snail: cargo list will likely change every FIRS release
14:56:41  <Wolf01> I still need to hold a girl...
14:56:46  <andythenorth> [new economies -> new cargos]
14:56:56  <V453000> yeah fuck the north for new cargoes, riot 3 2 1 ...
14:57:09  <Snail> hmm
14:57:46  <andythenorth> I am automating cargo placement for my vehicle sets :P
14:57:47  <Snail> how can sets keep up with you then?
14:57:54  <V453000> but if you do it by recolours the it isnt so bad
14:57:56  <Snail> like with cargo classes?
14:57:59  <andythenorth> I can’t keep up with myself
14:58:03  <andythenorth> CHIPS lacks FIRS cargos
14:58:04  <Snail> :D
14:58:20  <Wolf01> XD
14:58:20  <V453000> nuts has all cargoes have unique sprites and like 12 wagon generations :/
14:58:39  <andythenorth> use the new frosch123 thing
14:58:54  <Snail> hmm, what is that?
14:58:58  <V453000> my next train set will rely heavily on recolouring for future proof reasons
14:59:19  <V453000> plus frosch thing
14:59:39  <andythenorth> frosch123 thing can haz a link?
14:59:43  <V453000> with frosch thing recolour should be alpha controllavle
15:00:16  <V453000>
15:01:31  <Snail> a sprite on top of another sprite?
15:01:58  <V453000> yes like industries/houses
15:02:15  <V453000> can reduce filesize massively
15:02:24  <V453000> esp useful for EZ/32bpp
15:02:33  <Snail> sounds fun
15:02:56  <Snail> so you first draw the empty wagon, then you place the cargo sprite on top of it
15:03:11  <V453000> for example. :)
15:03:21  <V453000> max layers is 4 atm
15:03:21  <supermop> yo
15:04:30  <V453000> oy
15:07:32  <supermop> feel like making something now that work a bit quieter and wedding stuff all done
15:11:21  <andythenorth> trams
15:15:38  <andythenorth> hmm
15:15:54  * andythenorth swaps asymmetrical for symmetrical
15:16:11  <supermop> ding ding
15:16:31  <Wolf01> Nah, you should make two sets, one for each driving side
15:16:52  <andythenorth> I think I did the sounds already supermop :P
15:17:31  <supermop> add trammies
15:17:41  <supermop> and labor disputes
15:19:17  <supermop>
15:19:26  <andythenorth> what makes 16?
15:19:28  <andythenorth> 5, 5, 6
15:19:34  <andythenorth> 6, 6, 4
15:19:53  <andythenorth> Wolf01: how’s NRT? :)
15:19:57  <andythenorth> stuck with something?
15:20:00  <supermop> my wife found that zine for me in seattle and got it due to tram on cover
15:20:29  <Wolf01> Ehm... I have no ides on how to go further O.o
15:20:34  <Wolf01> *ideas
15:21:12  <Wolf01> I was fiddling with something, but I was also really confused
15:22:25  <Wolf01> The main problem is that I can't understand how to fully separate it
15:23:45  <Wolf01> Once I unserstand what I have to do and how, I can start all the bits stuff and unpacket the subtypes as frosch/alberth said
15:24:06  <supermop> all trams have 2 staff until 1990, and which point running cost decreases significantly, but with non-zero chance of all trams breaking/crashing due to industrial action
15:25:35  <Alberth> always nice when people remember things you apparently said, that you have forgotten yourself already :)
15:26:07  <andythenorth> you said it in a paste which is gone from paste bin now :P
15:26:09  <supermop> where does the game store the crew number of vehicles, for reporting toll in crashes?
15:26:10  <andythenorth> sadly
15:26:49  <andythenorth> Wolf01: afaict, we don’t separate street / light rail when it comes to all the tile code
15:26:50  <Alberth> oh, I don't contest saying stuff about bits, I just don't remember it :p
15:27:14  <andythenorth> not sure though
15:27:16  <Alberth> but if it makes sense to you, all is fine :)
15:27:59  <andythenorth> Wolf01: some places, separation or not is potato/potato
15:28:13  <andythenorth> but for drawing it definitely makes no sense to separate handling that
15:28:28  <Wolf01> andythenorth, yes, as I understood the code, it doesn't make sense to completely separate the stuff, but I can't put the subtypes in the middle right now
15:28:28  <andythenorth> were you stuck on faking a newgrf?
15:29:22  <Wolf01> I just wanted to add a non-electric tram and electric tram types for testing purpose, but all the stuff I've done relies on grf code
15:29:49  <Wolf01> (I made the dropdown dynamic as the rail one)
15:30:30  <Wolf01> Also suddenly it seem I can't tell anymore if there's a "tram" loaded, so I can only see road
15:31:06  <andythenorth> probably no vehicle matching the type?
15:31:21  <Wolf01> The loop which checked if a company could build trams (from base OTTD) only finds one road vehicle
15:31:28  <andythenorth> my inclination was to go in baby steps
15:32:36  <andythenorth> perhaps first change the 78 or so calls to RoadType so they unpack the result into StreetType and LightRailType
15:32:48  <andythenorth> but only provide the default road and tram
15:33:03  <andythenorth> that’s a clean objective, then can connect up newgrf stuff
15:33:16  <andythenorth> then handle things like drawing catenary
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15:33:31  <andythenorth> then make the vehicles understand the relevant RoadType props
15:33:59  <andythenorth> in fact, vehicles first
15:34:07  <andythenorth> because need them to test with :P
15:34:12  <andythenorth> catenary second to that
15:34:35  <andythenorth> first / before catenary /s
15:38:03  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> perhaps first change the 78 or so calls to RoadType so they unpack the result into StreetType and LightRailType <- that's what I didn't understand, we already have 1 bit which tells if is road or tram, and we'll add 4 more (for each type) to store subtypes, I just have to put somewhere a function which does some bit shifting depending on roadtype
15:38:39  <andythenorth> we lose the 1 bit for road or tram ;)
15:38:46  <andythenorth> no need for it any more
15:39:31  <Wolf01> Because it's already the prop which defines what there's on the tile
15:39:34  * andythenorth looks what’s in m4
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15:42:40  <supermop> yo andythenorth
15:43:12  <supermop> 2nd gen mail car in IH colors as a freight car rather than mail/passenger when setting cc
15:45:15  <andythenorth> it does? o_O
15:45:22  <andythenorth> what’s the cargo?
15:45:28  <andythenorth> hmm
15:45:35  <andythenorth> does m4 have 8 bits free for road?
15:45:51  <andythenorth> I can’t figure out if level crossings use 4 of those bits
15:45:55  <supermop> andythenorth:
15:46:01  <supermop> cargo is mail
15:46:21  <andythenorth> hmm
15:46:56  <andythenorth> not sure what causes that :)
15:47:31  <supermop> i dont mind mail coloring different than passenger, but seems unintended
15:47:35  <andythenorth> it is
15:48:06  <supermop> tbh mail should color ren, and should recolor any diesel hauling it to red
15:48:10  <supermop> red
15:49:51  <supermop> plus i want sector appropriate logos on side of grey freight locos
15:53:33  <supermop> this is with spi, so maying that messes with mail?
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15:58:58  <andythenorth> maybe
15:59:00  <andythenorth> dunno
15:59:12  * andythenorth tests
15:59:56  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> does m4 have 8 bits free for road? <- From wiki "uses 8 bits free in m8"? Also, there isn't m8, which might mean savegame bump, afterload conversion etc etc
16:00:48  <andythenorth> m8 there is a typo
16:00:55  <andythenorth> I think it’s supposed to be m4
16:00:57  <andythenorth> I’ll fix
16:03:08  <andythenorth> still not sure if there are 4 bits free in m4, or 8
16:03:12  <andythenorth> rail uses 4 of them
16:03:29  <andythenorth> and all 8 if it’s signalled
16:03:43  <andythenorth> so level crossing tiles don’t have any bits free in m4?
16:04:02  <Wolf01> Looking in landscape.html
16:04:08  <andythenorth> yeah
16:04:39  <Wolf01> Roads don't seem to use m4
16:05:22  <Wolf01> Rail uses all for signals and fence
16:05:36  <andythenorth> level crossing tiles have no signal?
16:05:52  * andythenorth guessing at this point :P
16:05:56  <Wolf01> No, it's not possible a signal on crossing
16:07:08  <Wolf01> Crossing is on m5 on roads
16:08:59  <andythenorth> ok so we use m4, two blocks of 4 bits, per StreetType and LightRailType
16:09:10  <andythenorth> deprecate m7 7..6 (road, tram)
16:10:03  <andythenorth> Alberth: you pasted some code which would unpack RoadTypes to StreetType and TramType a few months ago ;)
16:10:06  <andythenorth> but…I lost it :P
16:10:42  <Wolf01> I have logs, but I don't remember if I was here, and I wouldn't look for "alberth" in my logs
16:12:30  <andythenorth>
16:12:35  <andythenorth> I think
16:16:06  <Wolf01> Could be
16:17:56  <Alberth> that's not mine
16:18:20  <Wolf01> Maybe frosch?
16:19:08  <Alberth> I checked my logs around "StreetType" and I have no posted pastes there
16:20:21  <Alberth> I don't have that paste name in my logs, except for today
16:20:55  <Wolf01> It was pasted today
16:21:08  <Wolf01> The original got lost
16:21:48  <Alberth> fair enough
16:22:23  <frosch123> judging by the coding style neither me nor albert wrote that :p
16:22:52  <frosch123> anyway, what is the status for noroadtypes?
16:23:24  <Wolf01> Some gui separation for now, and a lot of confusion
16:23:40  <frosch123> do you store a streettype and a tramtype in the map?
16:23:55  <Wolf01> We'll do, in m4
16:24:26  <frosch123> i prefer to ignore all the track-compatibility stuff, and just go for more graphics
16:24:46  <frosch123> for that you need a concept how to layer the sprites
16:24:49  <Wolf01> That's also an option
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16:25:26  <frosch123> like, road underlay, walkway, tram-overlay, pylons, wires, ...
16:25:31  <frosch123> not sure whether in that order :)
16:25:58  <Wolf01> Defined by grf, which is the thing I'm not really good at
16:26:41  <Wolf01> (I can't even define a copy of a current roadtype)
16:27:00  <frosch123> first you need to define what the roadtype actually defines :)
16:27:03  <Wolf01> Also I think I'll have to revert that catenary thing I added last time
16:27:14  <frosch123> what is underlay, what is baseset, what is newgrf
16:27:48  <frosch123> like for rail: there is a grass-only-groundsprite from the baseset, then a railtype-underlay and railtype-overlay
16:27:59  <frosch123> how to compose roads though?
16:28:09  <frosch123> how to add walkways? trees? lamps?
16:28:13  <Wolf01> Looking at the landscape doc I think with layers we should be able to remove also the m7 bit 5
16:28:30  <frosch123> what is provided by baseset, what by roadgrf?
16:29:27  <frosch123> Wolf01: rails also have that snow bit :)
16:32:34  <andythenorth> should tram provide rails and underlay?
16:32:39  <andythenorth> underlay is only show if no road
16:32:49  <andythenorth> or are there separate sprites for with / without road?
16:35:14  <Wolf01> So, should I start with the paste stuff?
16:35:53  <Wolf01> Or we need another session of brainstorming?
16:37:19  <andythenorth> the stuff I pasted is junk maybe
16:37:21  <andythenorth> not sure
16:37:44  <andythenorth> I can find no local copy of the paste alberth gave me :P
16:41:16  <Wolf01> What about m6 bits 5..3? How whe should interact with them?
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16:43:13  <frosch123> <- draft
16:43:43  <andythenorth> what are the m6 bits doing?
16:43:55  <Wolf01> lamps, trees, stuff
16:44:09  <Wolf01> Roadworks
16:44:35  <Wolf01> But there are distinctions between paved and unpaved road
16:45:26  <andythenorth> oh yeah found them
16:45:34  <andythenorth> weird indenting in landscape.html
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16:46:04  <Wolf01> Because those could only appear with m5 bit 7 clear
16:47:11  <Wolf01> And the m6 bit 4? Cat ate that?
16:47:51  <andythenorth> seems those bits are unaffected by notroadtypes?
16:47:52  <Wolf01> Oh wait, only 3 bits, its a decimal number not the bit position
16:48:45  <Wolf01> What about an unpaved tram in the middle of a city?
16:49:20  <Wolf01> Or some other weird combination
16:49:54  <andythenorth> I think those bits are set by town zone no?
16:49:55  <andythenorth> mostly
16:50:01  <Wolf01> Yes, seem so
16:53:02  <frosch123> just ignore those bits :)
16:53:11  <frosch123> leave them to the default roads
16:53:18  <frosch123> newgrfs will have their own idea of townzones
16:54:34  <Wolf01> ->  iv. do not at this stage try and handle multiple types of StreetType, TramType, assume only one of each ... :D
16:55:16  <andythenorth> :P
16:55:49  <Wolf01> 5.  split types in global construction menu -> done
16:55:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: do you have a github user? o_O
16:56:39  <Wolf01> I'm the gui guy, it was the easiest thing (I did it also to get again confidence with the ottd code)
16:56:57  <frosch123> no, git is shit
16:57:03  <andythenorth> nvm
16:57:24  <frosch123> i have no bitbucket account either though :p
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16:58:43  <frosch123> so you already have a spec?
16:59:14  <andythenorth> somewhat only
16:59:20  <andythenorth> it’s an idea
16:59:36  <Wolf01> In words I think yes, we should do a map of bits and features
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16:59:54  <andythenorth> better yes
16:59:56  <frosch123> i put the sidewalks onto the lowest layer, so that they can be used from the baseset, similar as for bridges
17:00:05  <andythenorth> makes sense
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17:00:11  <frosch123> that allows new tramtypes with default road
17:00:23  <frosch123> but disallows roads from designing the border
17:00:36  <frosch123> i.e. yout cannot make all-yellow roads
17:00:49  <frosch123> since you don't know the exact pixels the baseset uses for walkway
17:01:12  <frosch123> you will always have to make assumptions about the walkway, like for bridges
17:11:19  * andythenorth making all the freight trams symmetrical
17:11:22  <andythenorth> bit of redrawing
17:11:24  <andythenorth> but is nice touch
17:12:49  * Wolf01 prepares to go out alone
17:30:26  <Wolf01> BBL
17:34:01  <andythenorth> bye :)
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18:27:24  <Samu> i'm back to my system
18:27:35  <Samu> visual studio is taking too long to load symbols
18:27:48  <Samu> what are these symbols for?
18:28:06  <Samu> Microsoft Symbol Servers
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18:55:21  <glx> you need symbols for debugging
18:55:34  <glx> contains functions names mainly
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19:03:49  <Wolf01> Bah, outside is boring, I won't suggest it
19:07:17  <Samu> just cleaned all objects and stuff, lets hope i can debug
19:10:26  <Samu> meanwhile, I'm testing this
19:11:04  <Samu> want to prevent towns from building on tiles that contain water
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19:12:33  <Samu> town growth code is quite complex, any advice I should take into account?
19:14:24  <_dp_> Samu, depends on what you want to do
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19:28:28  <andythenorth> Wolf01: outside is raining :P
19:28:41  <andythenorth> where’s that code albert gave me?
19:28:43  * andythenorth looks
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19:33:59  <Samu> I am worried about town growth deadlocks
19:34:05  <Samu> _dp_:
19:34:42  <andythenorth> can’t find that code :P
19:35:53  <_dp_> Samu, build spirals ^^
19:40:04  <Alberth> andy, maybe just reconstruct it?
19:41:11  <Wolf01> Yes, it should have been just a proof of concept, not a final code
19:41:38  <V453000> fucking shithell
19:41:38  <V453000> XD
19:41:48  <V453000> I made a decision to render in cycles in blender but it's too shit
19:41:50  <V453000> need vray XD
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19:42:27  <Alberth> or wray, it has more Vs
19:46:13  <V453000> hm I could try to put Vray to blender :D
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19:47:55  <andythenorth> it was code that I would have no idea how to write :)
19:48:16  <andythenorth> it was a replacement RoadTypes enum, and some functions to access it to pick out street or tram
19:48:33  <andythenorth> access / use /s
19:48:44  <Supercheese> roadtypes wot wot
19:49:02  <Wolf01> I think that's my job, you have already to struggle with layers, sprite composition, catenary...
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19:51:49  <Wolf01> The problem is how to structure bits. At firts I thought they were 2 indexes of grf spec, but now I'm not so sure
19:52:08  <Wolf01> Hence the confusion
19:52:54  <Wolf01> What m4 stores? 2 indexes or 2 sets of flags?
19:53:11  <andythenorth> 2 indexes
19:53:28  <Wolf01> Ok, so we need to define the spec
19:53:28  <andythenorth> just an integer no?
19:53:32  <Wolf01> Yes
19:54:11  <Wolf01> I always worked with flags where the integer was a combination of features
19:54:52  <Alberth> GB and SB handles keeping bits together
20:01:54  <Samu_> 7>..\src\town_cmd.cpp(1048): warning C4554: '&': check operator precedence for possible error; use parentheses to clarify precedence
20:02:11  <Samu_> if (TrackStatusToTrackBits(GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_WATER, 0)) & TRACK_BIT_ALL != TRACK_BIT_NONE) return false;
20:02:18  <Samu_> parentheses where?
20:02:52  <glx> after if, before !=
20:03:11  <Samu_> hmm, brb
20:03:54  <Wolf01> could be useful?
20:07:19  <andythenorth> yours?
20:07:28  <Wolf01> A part of my tests
20:08:14  <Wolf01> I would like to start from scratch
20:11:49  <Wolf01> the full patch, with test stuff too
20:13:24  <Alberth> I could see roadtypes.h also in src/table, eventually
20:13:40  <Wolf01> Then I found I could just check the misc flags to know ifa a vehicle was a tram :P
20:14:00  <Alberth> one more mystery solved :)
20:14:24  <andythenorth> yeah it’s just a bool
20:14:24  <Wolf01> But a proper property should be better
20:14:51  <andythenorth> it will likely just be a match between vehicle label and available roadtype labels
20:15:05  <Wolf01> As a misc flag could be used to define which variant of light rail could travel to
20:15:21  <Wolf01> Or other non-important stuff
20:16:15  <Alberth> nn
20:16:25  <Wolf01> There is the roadtypes.h, line 752
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20:16:31  <Wolf01> Oh
20:17:22  <Samu_> if ((TrackStatusToTrackBits(GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_WATER, 0)) & TRACK_BIT_ALL) != TRACK_BIT_NONE) return false;
20:17:25  <Samu_> ah got it
20:17:33  <Samu_> ty glx
20:18:29  <Wolf01> I'm really open for suggestions
20:21:22  <supermop> hm what looks better, lay up on down track before up turn, build bay platform and lay up in bay, or build siding/yard down from station to lay up and turn in?
20:23:08  <supermop> layup on the down track is iffy as next down through train comes past 4 days after the train tuns
20:23:12  <supermop> turns
20:23:44  <supermop> vulcan with 5 tile rake likely can't accelerate fast enough to clear the line
20:24:31  <supermop> the minimalist crossover is cute though
20:26:39  <supermop> i guess waiting in a bay platform is good for station raating
20:28:49  * andythenorth can hear Massive Attack playing
20:28:50  <andythenorth> in the rain
20:34:06  <supermop> dont think i've heard massive attack in a good 10 years
20:34:55  <andythenorth> they’re playing live now
20:35:01  <andythenorth> about 2 miles away :P
20:35:16  <andythenorth> open air concert, much rain
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20:41:01  <Wolf01> With the air conditioner on I can hear a cover band playing, just behind my home (300m), don't know which group :P
20:44:48  <Samu_> _grow_town_result - there are several results, hmm must find the list
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21:20:54  <andythenorth> bye
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21:48:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:05:38  <Samu> hmm problem seems to be with 2x2 grid and 3x3 grid
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22:08:40  <Samu> static RoadBits GetTownRoadGridElement(Town *t, TileIndex tile, DiagDirection dir)
22:11:41  <_dp_> Samu, yeah, they suck
22:11:41  <_dp_> Samu, and if you're looking for infinitely growing layout there aren't many options really
22:11:41  <_dp_> Samu, because anything that has loops or dead ends is gonna stuck eventually
22:16:44  <Samu> i need to read log, i'm lost in conversation
22:16:54  <Samu> @logs
22:16:55  <DorpsGek> Samu:
22:19:38  <Samu> hopefully my computer doesn't crash in the mean time
22:19:57  <Samu> okay, the issue I got is with 2x2 and 3x3 grids, about roadbits growth
22:20:25  <Samu> when extending the road in a direction, it still builds on water
22:21:24  <Samu> I see a rb_template that disregards anykind of water in the tile, it only looks at the slope configuration
22:21:55  <Samu> something tells me this is the faulty function GetTownRoadGridElement
22:22:14  <Samu> something needs to be added to check for water in the tile, but how am I doing that?
22:22:47  <Samu> but i may be wrong, the whole town growth stuff is complicated to follow :(
22:27:53  <_dp_> Samu, and what's the problem with water?
22:28:49  <_dp_> Samu, bridge counts as one road tile so except for town zones it hardly affects anything
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22:41:39  <Samu> ah, i see
22:42:10  <Samu> 			case TL_3X3_GRID:
22:42:15  <Samu> case TL_2X2_GRID:
22:42:45  <Samu> if (!IsRoadAllowedHere(t1, tile, target_dir)) return; is missing there
22:42:51  <Samu> I wonder why
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23:03:10  <Samu> if (HasTileWaterGround(tile)) return; - this function is returning false for coasts....
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