Log for #openttd on 6th September 2016:
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01:53:28  <Samu> new patch for docks -
01:53:32  <Samu> now i'm off to bed, cyas
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08:00:41  <Wolf01> o/
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11:02:07  <Samu> why is &EnsureNoShipProc on rail_cmd.cpp and not on vehicle.cpp :(
11:10:54  <Samu> darn rail tiletypes ruining dock placement
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11:23:48  <Samu> 		GetRailGroundType returned	RAIL_GROUND_BARREN (0)	RailGroundType
11:24:20  <Samu> why is it not returning RAIL_GROUND_WATER
11:24:26  <Samu> what am i doing wrong?
11:25:38  <Samu>
11:26:09  <Samu> that rail, isn't the ground type RAIL_GROUND_WATER? why is it getting RAIL_GROUND_BARREN ?
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11:27:50  <Samu> ahhhhh, nevermind, my bad
11:27:54  <Samu> the error is mine
11:28:03  <Samu> I was asking the wrong tile
11:28:21  <Samu> tile_cur, not tile
11:31:14  <Samu> problem solved
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11:42:36  <Samu> posted
11:42:45  <Samu> v2
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12:08:42  <Samu> i hate logic
12:08:58  <Samu> i always fail, always have to post a correction
12:20:49  <Samu> v3 -
12:31:38  <Samu> a patch that depends on another patch to make sense
12:31:54  <Samu> oh well... doesnt' matter
12:32:13  <Samu> it works either way
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12:50:32  <Flygon_> Urp
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12:50:38  <andythenorth> lo
12:51:03  <Flygon> Can't find a 2CC vehicle list that has the alpha1 vehicles. The lists are for the older .grfs, without the trains between Le Belge and American
12:51:03  <Flygon> <_>
12:51:06  <Flygon> SHOWER TIME
12:51:11  <Flygon> Also yo
13:04:13  <Wolf01> o/
13:05:49  <V453000> yo puny humenz
13:27:59  <Wolf01> I need to prepare some wall layouts which can integrate with rails, belts and pipes...
13:28:59  <Flygon> Doop
13:31:51  <V453000> what do you mean integrate?
13:33:20  <Wolf01> I have standard sizes for railways and concrete paths
13:33:53  <Wolf01> Also defences along walls are placed in some ways which allow gates
13:34:25  <V453000> :)
13:35:03  <Wolf01> But not everything could be placed without some manual changes
13:46:01  <Wolf01> THAT'S MY GOAL
13:47:07  <V453000> FUCK YEAH
13:47:08  <Wolf01> Also, I have a roboport grid
13:48:08  <Wolf01> There are too many units in Factorio, roboport areas, electric poles areas, underground pipes max length, underground belts max length
13:48:45  <Wolf01> Odd and even sized entities
13:48:51  <LordAro> > complains about the number of different units in #openttd
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13:54:10  <Flygon> C'moooon
13:54:11  <Flygon> It's 1845
13:54:19  <Flygon> There has to be something better than Le bloody Belge
13:56:52  <Wolf01> Pfffff 3 tiles on one side and 4 on the other :(
14:00:18  <Flygon> oh nvm a train just dropped that isn't Le Belge
14:00:49  <supermop> yo
14:01:02  <Flygon> Ey
14:15:08  <Samu> is it really okay to create a topic for every patch I make? :(
14:15:47  <Samu> i got 3 or more tiny patches, but i'm afraid I might infest the forum
14:27:07  <peter1138> Yes
14:29:17  <Samu> uh, okay... posting
14:34:45  <Samu> done posting, so it was 4
14:34:58  <Samu> - uh...
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14:46:13  <Samu> there was another thing I'd like to post, and it's about that whole issue of ships going to innaccessible ship depots, I am unable to fix that on my own. Too complex for me to handle it
14:48:51  <Samu> then there is yet another issue, but I guess _dp_ is on it, about diagonal distances profiting more
14:49:21  <Samu> not really ship related
14:49:27  <Samu> but also affects them
14:59:53  <_dp_> Samu, there isn't much else to do about it, mostly needs decision not code
15:02:22  <Samu> oh, :(
15:02:49  <_dp_> Samu, and since no one seems to care it's probably not gonna happen
15:04:57  <Samu> oh i care lol
15:05:46  <Samu> i wanted to try the speed penalty idea
15:06:09  <Samu> but seems it was tried and trains look bad with it?!
15:06:42  <Samu> i suggested the penalty on the entire train, not per wagon
15:17:58  <peter1138> is that the "train moves too fast in diagonals" thing?
15:18:15  <Samu> yes, but it also affects ships and aircraft
15:18:22  <peter1138> ok
15:18:26  <peter1138> vehicle obviously
15:18:31  <peter1138> but nobody uses anything but trains :p
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15:24:08  <Wolf01> o/
15:24:25  <LordAro> /o
15:24:34  <_dp_> peter1138, it actually moves slower, but not enough to outbalance manhattan distance increase
15:29:35  <Alberth> o/
15:29:53  <Samu> really'
15:30:01  <Samu> how did u find that?
15:30:13  <Samu> slow it moar
15:30:20  <Samu> if its easily editable, that is
15:31:00  <_dp_> or mb not slower... diagonal is 256 units, side is 192
15:31:47  <_dp_> 256 / 192 = 1.33 < 1.41 hm, guess it still means it's faster %)
15:32:56  <Samu> it's 33% faster, is that it?
15:35:51  <Samu> 1.33/1.5 = wanted speed
15:36:16  <_dp_> Samu, nah, 6% faster compared to euclidean
15:36:58  <Samu> try...( 256/192)/1.5
15:37:15  <Alberth> @calc 256.0/192/1.5
15:37:16  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 0.888888888889
15:37:18  <Wolf01> 42
15:37:46  <Alberth> Dorpsgek has it almost right, Wolf01  :)
15:37:59  <Samu> or, hmm
15:38:22  <_dp_> @calc 2**.5 / 1.33
15:38:22  <DorpsGek> _dp_: 1.06331846795
15:38:27  <Wolf01> Mmmh I'm bored
15:38:39  <Alberth> play some factorio?
15:38:47  <Samu> i hate math sometimes
15:38:48  <Alberth> make my dinner?
15:38:49  <Wolf01> Just closed it because I was bored
15:38:58  <Wolf01> Dinner is already done
15:39:02  <Alberth> :o   factorio done?
15:39:39  <Samu> on axis, the distance is 256
15:39:40  <_dp_> and 50% faster in manhattan distance (192/128)
15:39:40  <Alberth> no no, my dinner isn't done yet :p
15:39:58  <Samu> on side, the distance is 192
15:40:04  <Samu> ah
15:40:10  <Wolf01> Heh, I'm just running all around building walls and obliterating every single alien I find with my 124 destroyer bots
15:40:16  <Samu> ya, 1.5 the magic value i've been trying to figure out
15:40:25  <Wolf01> I need something different
15:41:49  <Samu> distance on axis is 192 or 128? confused
15:43:19  <_dp_> Samu, 192, diagonal = 256 = 2 manhattan
15:46:43  <Samu> axis = 192, diagonal = 256? diagonal distance is bigger than axis distance? weird
15:47:06  <Wolf01> Samu... geometry?
15:47:35  <Samu> gah i hate math
15:47:58  <Samu> what is the side distance a train has to travel on the track?
15:48:07  <_dp_> Wolf01, he probably thinks in screen coords
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15:48:50  <Samu> a track on the right side of the tile versus a track on the axis of the tile
15:49:15  <Samu> these are the distances I was trying to find
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15:50:22  <_dp_> Samu, see GetAdvanceDistance@vehicle_base.h
15:50:38  <Samu> oki
15:50:59  <_dp_> that's for trains, for other vehicles it's somewhere else I think
15:51:24  <Alkel_U3> Wolf01: and that's where Dwarf Fortress comes in
15:53:32  <Wolf01> I was more like "that's where C# comes in"
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15:56:32  <Samu> lets try absurdly low values to find out what direction this thing refers
15:57:05  <Wolf01> You should try with a hammer
15:57:22  <Samu> return (this->direction & 1) ? 32 : 256;
15:57:23  <Samu> keks
15:58:50  <Samu> oh, so lower value = faster speed, and that direction means on the axis
15:58:58  <Samu> now i know
15:59:11  <Samu> and it is affecting road vehicles :(
15:59:15  <Samu> not just trains
15:59:57  <Wolf01> If you want to change road vehicles just make them slow down in curves
16:00:49  <Samu> road vehicles are fine (appart from those inconsistencies
16:00:57  <Samu> )but that's another matter
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16:04:17  <Samu> okay 256*1.5 = 288
16:04:41  <Samu> return (this->direction & 1) ? 192 : 288;
16:05:02  <Samu> oops i mean 192*1.5 = 288
16:05:15  <Samu> testing
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16:13:50  <Samu_> nop, something's not right t.t
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16:14:15  <Alberth> 288 doesn't fit in a byte?
16:15:57  <_dp_> Alberth, 256+256 doesn't fit either
16:16:26  <Alberth> if you like to keep all bits, indeed
16:18:01  <_dp_> Alberth, nah, I just mean that it's being added to progress
16:18:17  <_dp_> Alberth, still can break somewhere else though %)
16:18:19  <Samu_> 256 is the maximum value?
16:18:22  <Samu_> t.t
16:18:57  <Samu_> 256/1.5 then
16:19:29  <Samu_> 170.6666666
16:20:43  <Samu_> return (this->direction & 1) ? (256 * 3) / 2 : 256;
16:20:48  <Samu_> sometihng like that?
16:21:51  <Samu_> or, instead of 256, 255
16:22:02  <Samu_> 255/1.5 = 170, no decimals
16:22:47  <Samu_> testing return (this->direction & 1) ? 170 : 255;
16:24:04  <_dp_> Samu_, none of this makes any sense to me :p
16:24:45  <Samu_> well, instead of making vehicles slower on diagonals, i'm making them faster on the axis
16:24:49  <Samu_> :p
16:25:05  <_dp_> Samu_, if you want equal speed in manhattan do 1:2 ratio
16:28:08  <_dp_> Samu_, and leave 256 to keep max income unchanged
16:28:20  <_dp_> Samu_, so, basically it's 128:256
16:30:08  <Samu_> with 256, i'd need a way to get 170.66666
16:30:24  <Samu_> but maybe this test is pointless, let me try this first
16:32:18  <_dp_> Samu_, it's distance, you multiply it by 1.5 not divide
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16:34:06  <Samu> strange, i'm not getting desired results
16:34:10  <Samu> i fail
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16:35:38  <andythenorth> o/
16:35:42  <Alberth> o/
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16:38:35  <andythenorth> is cat
16:39:06  <supermop> yo andythenorth
16:39:53  <Samu> 192 : 256; on axis - 143 days traveling, on diagonal - 99 days traveling
16:42:22  <Samu> 170 : 256; on axis - 126 days traveling, on diagonal - 98 days traveling
16:42:41  <Samu> doesn't seem to make sense... what the heck
16:43:25  <Samu> let's try 128 : 256 like u said
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16:45:32  <supermop> time to build a new non-grid transport game i guess?
16:45:57  <Samu> 128 : 256; on axis - 95 days traveling, on diagonal - 95 days traveling
16:46:03  <Samu> it achieved parity! yay
16:46:17  <Samu> but... the days traveling on the side also decrease, why's that?
16:47:40  <Samu> the trains are travelling at 5 km/h
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16:48:02  <Samu> over a manhattan distance of 20 tiles
16:51:24  <Samu> meanwhile, I found a bug on my easier dock placement patch
16:51:33  <Samu> gonna fix, brb
16:51:58  * andythenorth wonders what next
16:52:04  <andythenorth> probably un-breaking nml :(
16:53:15  <Samu> andythenorth, are u good at drawing logic? what gets drawn in front of what?
16:53:26  <andythenorth> no
16:53:32  <Samu> - this needs help :(
16:53:38  <Samu> oh well t.t
16:56:10  <andythenorth> Samu: radical approach, remove locks :P
16:56:13  <supermop> andythenorth: andyhouses?
16:56:17  <andythenorth> no
16:56:20  <andythenorth> zero interest
16:56:29  <andythenorth> houses are solved by default game, or by TAI
16:56:37  <andythenorth> I drew a house for opengfx once
16:56:39  <andythenorth> boring :P
16:56:49  <Alberth> :)
16:56:50  <supermop> but so cute
16:57:02  <_dp_> Samu, oh, good luck fixing z levels :p
16:57:16  <supermop> also that's just a challenge to overengineer procedural houses
16:57:28  <supermop> Samu: looks like a fun ride
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17:09:49  <supermop> can a house set define 1 house only?
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17:24:22  <Samu> i hate logic, i really don't get how it works at the first try
17:24:28  <Samu> i always fail
17:24:38  <LordAro> "i hate logic" ~ Samu, 2016
17:25:42  <Samu> docks are not tiles of type water, something is wrong somewhere, i was able to place a dock in front of the other
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17:33:49  <andythenorth> so can hg revert a commit?
17:33:58  <andythenorth> or do I just reverse patch from the diff, and commit that?
17:35:18  <andythenorth> hg backout?
17:36:45  <Alberth> rollback
17:36:57  <Alberth> it undoes the last thing
17:37:03  <andythenorth> nah, it’s already pushed to remote
17:37:16  <Alberth> ah
17:37:24  <andythenorth> I broke nml
17:38:01  <Alberth> hmm, a reverse commit, should be possible
17:38:04  <andythenorth> now I need to fix my mess :P
17:38:16  <Samu> how do i do this test? "if the tile is not water, deny construction, but if it is not water it can be a buoy, a rail with water on the halftile or an aqueduct. but if the tile is water, but the slope isn't flat or with one corner raised, deny construction"
17:38:35  <Samu> so messed up
17:38:54  <Milek7> hg don't work like git?
17:39:07  <andythenorth> I don’t know
17:39:08  <Alberth>  apparently  backout
17:39:23  <Alberth> never used it
17:40:03  <andythenorth>
17:40:43  <andythenorth> I get scared by docs like “ Note that this page no longer tells the whole truth. “
17:40:49  <andythenorth> more mess
17:41:08  <Alberth> it's the top commit you want to undo?
17:41:28  <Alberth> start with making a clone
17:41:36  <Alberth> so you can make a mess without a mess
17:42:41  <andythenorth> it’s the top commit
17:42:46  <andythenorth> in a branch
17:43:17  <Alberth> make a local clone, then try a backout on the clone
17:43:30  <Alberth> looks like it should work
17:43:43  <Alberth> obviously, if not, you can rollback
17:44:22  <andythenorth> ah, maybe frosch just removed my changes
17:44:30  <andythenorth> this might be not necessaty
17:44:33  <andythenorth> necessary *
17:44:41  <Alberth> the joys of shared repos :p
17:45:08  <andythenorth> I wish we had a trivial way to fork
17:45:13  <andythenorth> nvm
17:45:16  <andythenorth> wishes aren’t horses
17:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> if you already pushed to the global repo, don't do any of these history-altering operations. just patch -R with the previous commit and commit that as "undo the last change"
17:45:35  <Alberth> you have, make a local clone, hack, then push back to the mirror
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27655 trunk/src/lang/romanian.txt (2016-09-06 19:45:36 +0200 )
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> romanian: 2 changes by kkmic
17:45:52  <andythenorth> which mirror?
17:46:04  <Alberth> the copy you cloned from
17:46:43  <andythenorth> no remote?
17:46:55  <Alberth> ie I have a clone from the remote repo, my mirror. I make clones of the mirror, hack, and push good changes back to the mirror, then push to remote
17:47:12  <andythenorth> do you have a separate solution for backing up your disk?
17:47:37  <Alberth> I run an rsync to the 2nd disk yes
17:48:00  <Alberth> but not sure what's that got to do with it
17:48:34  <Alberth> basically, I can have many clones from my mirror
17:48:53  <Alberth> hack on different things without getting in each others way
17:49:12  <andythenorth> my habit is to rely on the remote repo for backup
17:49:16  <andythenorth> and sharing code
17:49:28  <andythenorth> I’ve had too many losses of data to trust local storage
17:49:32  <Alberth> since it's clone on the local disk, many repo files are actually shared between copies
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17:49:56  <andythenorth> I need to reset my brain to work differently on this
17:49:59  <andythenorth> :P
17:50:12  <Alberth> that's fine, you can often decide it's good to push back to the mirror and the remote
17:50:40  <andythenorth> I want to never push to the specific remote
17:50:45  <andythenorth> in the case of nml
17:50:54  <Alberth> I mostly work in full patch queue, but there is no need to actually do that
17:51:39  <frosch123> hoin
17:51:41  <Milek7> andythenorth: data loses due to hardware failrue or accidental rm -rf? :p
17:51:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: you deleted my breaking of nml repo?
17:52:14  <Alberth> hoi
17:52:27  <andythenorth> Milek7: either
17:52:38  <andythenorth> both happen
17:52:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, i stripped the branch
17:53:04  <andythenorth> thanks, sorry
17:54:51  * andythenorth experiments
17:54:59  <andythenorth> seems github can import mercurial projects
17:55:41  <andythenorth> ach, it complains about matching authors to their github profiles
17:55:49  <andythenorth> ‘complains’ = ‘tries to help’ :P
18:02:45  <andythenorth> yay, now I won’t break official nml
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18:04:48  <sim-al2> I have found the ultimate locomotive:
18:05:01  <sim-al2> Check out that huge engine
18:05:12  <sim-al2> And advanced suspension
18:06:59  <Alberth> git-hg  isn't working very well, I tried that too
18:08:00  <andythenorth> yeah, I’m not so bothered about the vcs flavour :)
18:08:07  <andythenorth> I just want easy forks, and devzone isn’t
18:08:57  <andythenorth> there’s quite a lot of inertia to working on a project, when it comes to putting code in public
18:09:50  <andythenorth> for my job, we just use a *lot* of feature branches, try not to ship broken code, and disable jenkins tests for specific branches which are expected to break tests
18:10:23  <andythenorth> I have to change mental attitude a bit to do ottd stuff
18:10:29  <andythenorth> nvm
18:11:56  <andythenorth> frosch123: so I found some houses support in nml, using ID 0x12
18:12:00  <andythenorth> so 0x13 for roadtypes? :P
18:34:15  <frosch123> you can just reassign the town feature
18:34:30  <frosch123> it is most likely only used because everything needs some number
18:34:36  <frosch123> but it is not part of the output
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18:38:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: did you use some different device for irc yesterday?
18:38:44  <andythenorth> no
18:39:21  <frosch123> for some reason the logs of yesterday do not work (they also did not work yesterday)
18:39:38  <frosch123> when i look at the logfile, all fancy characters are weird in your messages :p
18:40:18  <frosch123> but only yesterday
18:41:11  <frosch123> oh nevermind, also eddi is broken
18:43:42  <frosch123> §
18:48:00  <andythenorth> ha ha
18:48:11  <andythenorth> ‘eddi is broken’ could be a quote :)
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18:55:17  <Samu> v3 for easier dock placement -
18:55:30  <Samu> hopefully it works for good this time
18:55:43  <Eddi|zuHause> sure.
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19:05:35  * frosch123 blames php
19:06:21  <andythenorth>
19:07:14  *** Mazur has quit IRC
19:07:36  <frosch123> did the capslock broke and he had to stop tweeting?
19:07:39  <frosch123> *break
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19:24:34  <Wolf01> Back from the lego world
19:25:25  <Wolf01> Lol@PHP_CEO
19:33:57  <andythenorth> Wolf01:
19:34:03  <andythenorth> no changes yet :P
19:36:16  <Wolf01> 'pull' is not a git command, did you mean 'push'.... do you troll me?
19:36:37  <Wolf01> Back to svn
19:37:13  <andythenorth> what gave you that? :P
19:37:23  <Wolf01> Stupid git
19:37:43  <andythenorth> is ‘pull’ not a default git command?
19:38:02  <Wolf01> Yes, it is, it's even listed on "more used commands"
19:38:07  <andythenorth>
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19:46:42  <Wolf01> Do I need snakes to use nml?
19:49:15  <andythenorth> to develop on it, yes
19:52:28  <V453000> foqn pysnakes
19:52:51  <andythenorth> Wolf01: do you have snakes?
19:52:57  <Wolf01> I had problems in the past with different snakes lenghts
19:52:58  <V453000> always reminds me of my self-promise that I want to learn that shit eventually, at least some basics
19:53:44  <andythenorth> Wolf01: I will do the nml bit, unless I get stuck
19:53:47  <andythenorth> and provide a grf
19:54:44  <Wolf01> +1
19:55:33  <andythenorth> Wolf01: you’re on windows? o_O
19:55:37  <Wolf01> Yup
19:55:46  <andythenorth> python.buildout probably works, but eh
19:55:47  <andythenorth>
19:56:03  <andythenorth> you’d have to configure paths and stuff, no idea how to do that
19:56:04  <Wolf01> I could use the ubuntu subsystem
19:56:12  <Wolf01> Is there for a reason now
19:56:28  <andythenorth> leave it for now :)
19:56:35  <andythenorth> don’t look for unneeded work :)
19:56:45  <andythenorth> look / get given :P
20:00:23  <Samu> one of my patches is making Terron ai crash with an empty array
20:00:27  <Samu> t.t
20:01:29  <Samu> seems to be buoy related
20:03:44  <Samu> what is an array?
20:03:50  <Wolf01> Magic
20:04:00  <Samu> local qt = big_qt.GetIntersection(x, y, x, y, -1).pop();
20:04:07  <Samu> is there an array here or so?
20:04:21  <Samu> it crashes here with "empty array"
20:04:45  <Wolf01> Yup, there's an array
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20:07:06  <Samu> gonna try Terron solo
20:07:19  <Samu> if it errors again, i bet it's the buoy patch
20:10:48  <Samu> errored
20:10:55  <Samu> same empty array
20:12:23  <Wolf01> No buoys in "qt"?
20:13:14  <Wolf01> Chainability is cool, but leds to a lot of errors
20:14:19  <Samu> i made buoy placement to error when there's a ship in the way
20:14:51  <Samu> it used not to give any error and just place it
20:15:40  <Samu> or maybe it's something else, but i suspect it to be the buoy patch
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20:18:01  <supermop>
20:18:37  <supermop> i imagine this will find more us in a NARS game than in real life
20:18:42  <supermop> use
20:18:52  <Wolf01> :P
20:19:13  <sim-al2> Apparently it's the Acela replacement
20:19:17  <sim-al2> so...
20:19:35  <sim-al2> There's also the potential for California to order it
20:20:49  <supermop> yeah seems designed to sell in multiple NA markets
20:21:12  <supermop> had been feeling like cali was leaning more towards hitachi sets though
20:21:29  <sim-al2> Yeah Hitachi looks good too
20:21:29  <supermop> all of their renders show blue and gold n700s or so
20:21:46  <sim-al2> Do they have a US plant?
20:22:12  <sim-al2> If they don't and Alstom does, that could hurt they chances
20:22:28  <supermop> not sure, kawasaki has more than one, alstom has one, siemens has one i think
20:22:53  <supermop> hitachi will build something fast once the rfp goes out
20:23:01  <sim-al2> Yeah, probably
20:23:14  <supermop> but i didn't hear of anyone else bidding on this amtrak order
20:23:23  <sim-al2> There's also Nippon Sharyo making railcars
20:23:53  <sim-al2> I don't know that they would build high speed equipment, but they will be building commuter/regional stuff in short order
20:23:59  <supermop> NS focuses mostly on slow and heavy hauled stock it seems, mostly chicago stuff
20:24:26  <supermop> kawasaki and alstom seem to split the NYC stuff almost 50/50
20:24:52  <supermop> bombardier builds a lot for stuff out here too
20:25:17  <supermop> bombardier and siemens seem to split the light rail market
20:25:29  <sim-al2> The new NS bilevels are supposed to be much lighter
20:25:41  <supermop> but Cincinnati bought from a Spanish builder
20:26:03  <Samu> without the buoy patch and with 14 Terrons I am not getting the error anymore
20:26:04  <sim-al2> But they had a testing failure a few months back, just short of the strength requirements, so now they are delayed
20:27:05  <sim-al2> Bombardier builds a lot of stuff, including locomotives
20:27:36  <sim-al2> Siemens has big plans it seems, not just the locomotives but also new railcars
20:28:06  <sim-al2> Like the ones for Brightline, but i think they are angling for a big order from maybe VIA too
20:28:50  <sim-al2> VIA has a lot of old stainless steel cars that they would like to replace since refurbishing them is fairly expensive
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20:31:32  <sim-al2> CAF has been building new cars for Amtrak, and I think will play a bigger role in the transit market too
20:32:56  <sim-al2> I assume that CAF is the Spanish manufacturer you mentioned, there is Talgo too but they build specialized articulated stuff mostly
20:33:24  <supermop> almost all non-acela, non-genesis services i see at Penn or yards in queens are the new seimens locomotives
20:33:46  <sim-al2> Yeah, the whole HHP fleet is out
20:34:13  <sim-al2> And almost (maybe all now?) AEM7ACs are out
20:34:35  <sim-al2> I think there's a few AEM7ACs doing stuff for MARC though
20:34:45  <supermop> tbh rarely saw HHPs past 2010
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20:34:54  <andythenorth> all the meatballs are gone
20:35:02  <supermop> yep
20:35:08  <sim-al2> Yeah, HHP8 relaiblity was crap
20:35:13  <Samu> isn't VIA a cpu maker?
20:35:17  <sim-al2> All the DC AEM7s are gone
20:35:40  <sim-al2> There's a CPU maker called VIA, but the national passenger operator in Canada is called VIA
20:36:08  <sim-al2> For whatever reason the Acelas are more reliable, but supposedly still tempermental
20:36:09  <andythenorth> should I buy this?
20:36:18  <andythenorth> I have no RI locos, and no other passenger cars
20:36:21  <andythenorth> and I want neither
20:36:47  <Samu> i see
20:38:18  <Samu> retesting all 7 ship AIs, all at the same time
20:39:14  <Samu> i mean, all in the same world
20:40:11  <Samu> without the buoy patch of course
20:41:27  <Samu> wormnest isn't around :(
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20:42:26  <Wolf01> andythenorth, purchase unitram from kato, I've seen it at the last model expo and I loved it at first sight
20:42:39  <Samu> i made towns grow very fast, let's see if they build on the right tiles
20:42:46  <Wolf01>
20:43:22  <Samu> a tram to transport students inside a university?
20:43:29  <Wolf01>;sa=media;in=13733
20:43:55  <andythenorth> tramz
20:44:03  <andythenorth> my kids would like it, at least the younger one
20:44:07  * andythenorth not so much :)
20:44:09  <sim-al2> Samu, there is actually a few systems like that
20:44:28  <sim-al2>
20:44:48  <andythenorth> hmm, maybe I need some unitrack
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20:45:03  <andythenorth> then I can fill this room without needing baseboards
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20:45:33  <supermop> andythenorth: ho monorails
20:46:29  <andythenorth> kato track is expensive :o
20:46:41  <supermop> once at a japanese language meetup in melbourne,
20:47:09  <supermop> i asked a guy from a city in japan with trams, if they were called 'toden' as i thought
20:47:36  <supermop> he said everyone just called it 'ding-ding' denshya
20:47:54  <supermop> basically 'ding-ding electric train'
20:48:12  <supermop> best/cutest name for tram ever
20:48:28  <Wolf01> :D
20:50:00  <supermop> i wonder what will become of the meatballs
20:50:33  <supermop> i know marc has a few, but NJT neer really ran them i dont think
20:51:04  <supermop> and NJT is so underfunded i am sure they'd take 30 year old hand me downs
20:51:21  <Samu> this is the first time I put NoCAB and NoNoCAB competing in the same world
20:51:23  <supermop> metra doesn't use electric locomotives
20:51:27  <Samu> should be interesting
20:52:18  <andythenorth> this room is about 3m x 11m
20:52:20  <andythenorth> at a guess
20:52:27  <andythenorth> I can’t afford that much track :P
20:53:48  <sim-al2> supermop, they do have the electric line though
20:54:11  <sim-al2> Not locomotives, but bilevel EMUS that look almost exactly like the regular galley cars
20:54:12  <supermop> its all NS bilevel emus
20:54:39  <sim-al2> Not to mention through running with the South Shore emus
20:54:54  <supermop> runs on street in indiana for a stretch, so maybe a big locomotive would be dangerous
20:55:19  <sim-al2> Street running with big locomotives happens all over the US
20:55:30  <supermop> UP - Northwest line should be electrified
20:55:46  <sim-al2> Although the South Shore ones do have to stop for traffic lights there
20:56:03  <supermop> already triple tracked with somewhat high frequency
20:56:27  <sim-al2> Normal US locomotives probably don't have good enough brakes to do that, but it wouldn't be hard to retrofit, albiet with increased brake wear
20:57:50  <sim-al2> Yeah, the problem is that the US freight roads are rather skiddish about having electric lines built over their stuff
20:58:13  <sim-al2> And I think Metra has some major budget problems
21:00:14  <sim-al2> GO Transit in Toronto is going to electrify soonish, which may help get it done in other places
21:00:29  <sim-al2> They have a lot of track, so it will take a whille
21:01:40  <supermop> could meatballs work for electric freight in the northeast?
21:01:50  <sim-al2> No
21:02:01  <supermop> v. fast freight
21:02:07  <sim-al2> Most have been scrapped or are not usable
21:02:16  <supermop> coal unit trains at 100 mph
21:02:27  <sim-al2> The remaining ACs are better used on commuter trains anyway
21:02:42  <sim-al2> Coal trains are too heavy and have too much drag to run at those speeds
21:03:08  <sim-al2> The brakes used on normal freight cars couldn't handle it
21:03:16  <supermop> until we get hitachi to build us some new lightweight HSR hoppers
21:03:23  <supermop> coal emu
21:03:24  <sim-al2> There's no demand for it
21:03:30  <supermop> i demand it
21:03:46  <sim-al2> Lots of unelectrified trackage exists and shippers are fine with it
21:03:55  * andythenorth has run out of things to buy on ebay
21:03:59  <sim-al2> Also demand is dropping
21:04:01  <supermop> actually little demand for coal on east coast at all anymore outside of pizza ovens
21:04:12  <Wolf01> andythenorth, sop wasting money?
21:04:15  <Wolf01> *stop
21:04:34  <supermop> andythenorth: i have a lot of cement at home, how about i cast a bunch of scale monorail rails and sell to you
21:04:37  <andythenorth> ‘wasting’
21:04:47  <sim-al2> The other major problem is that Conrail tore up a good chunk of the non-passenger electrified lines
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21:05:44  <sim-al2> Mainly because Amtrak charged a lot to allow Conrail's existing electric fleet to run on the corridor itself, and the locomotives were already aging
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21:19:47  <andythenorth> bye
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21:23:10  <supermop> sounds like the acelas will be clapped out and scrapped by time new trains are all delivered
21:23:14  <supermop> so no cascading
21:24:12  <Wolf01> lego monorail which even does corners :P
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21:26:30  <supermop> Wolf01: would certainly make monorails cheaper to build
21:27:25  <Samu> OtviAI still has issues with ships
21:27:44  <Samu> the easy placement of docks is negatively impacting Otvi
21:28:33  <Samu> there really isn't much more i can do without negatively affecting gameplay from a human player point of view
21:29:30  <Samu> he is also placing ship depots in a way it blocks narrow passages
21:31:10  <Samu> he doesn't use buoys, and i allow YAPF unlimited distance, but he still got a ship lost.
21:31:32  <Samu> the problem this time is on YAPF
21:31:42  <Samu> it's not perfect enough to find the route
21:32:59  <Samu> i think overall, the balance is positive, he used to have lots of ships with only 1 order
21:34:27  <Samu> next AI I'm checking is DictatorAI
21:35:34  <Samu> he's also being negatively impacted by the easy dock placement :(
21:38:57  <Samu> 2 ships out of 50 are lost
21:39:14  <Samu> DictatorAI balance seems negative :(
21:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound like a comfortable ride
21:41:10  <Samu> nocab and nonocab seem to be doing fine for now, no lost ships
21:42:53  <Samu> terron is doing fine apparently
21:44:04  <Samu> transcute is doing fine too, for now
21:44:12  <Samu> and wmdot has no ships yet
21:44:19  <Samu> have to wait for oil rigs
21:45:39  <Samu> in short: easy dock placement patch isn't all that good
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21:46:43  <Samu> while it allows more docks to be placed, more routes found by the AIs, the AIs aren't ready to deal with it
21:47:15  <Samu> the water passage is closed upon dock placement, and the AI does not ensure that the passage is still valid
21:47:22  <Samu> t.t
21:48:50  <Samu> otviai already suffered from this with his depot placements
21:48:58  <Samu> now it is escalated with docks
21:49:01  <Samu> as well
21:49:21  <Samu> i suppose I'm gonna revert this change
21:49:40  <Samu> too bad, it was a good change
21:49:50  <Samu> :( t.t bah...
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21:57:30  <Samu> there is also another different kind of "AI" working
21:57:35  <Samu> towns growth
21:57:51  <Samu> so far i have not noticed any issue with it
21:57:59  <Samu> they are growing in the correct tiles
21:58:30  <Samu> i don't notice any water passage being closed due to town growth
21:58:35  <Samu> just as I intended
21:58:57  <Samu> so far, so good
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22:17:36  <Samu> well well, NoCAB also suffers from the easy dock placement patch :(
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22:26:25  <Samu> dictatorai isn't all that great with ships after all, i thought it was better
22:27:02  <Samu> he just build a ship depot on a lake, built ships in there, but the dock they're heading is not in that lake
22:27:23  <Samu> otviai does suffer from this as well
22:28:05  <Samu> a lake, a real natural lake, not river tiles
22:28:12  <Samu> it's sea tiles
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22:35:41  <Samu> i must do something about ship depot exits
22:36:16  <Samu> but i want to do it without adverse effects for the gameplay, it's already not intuitive for water construction
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23:07:58  <Samu> nop, i'm not gonna do anything about ship depot exits
23:08:33  <Samu> it would only help AIs
23:08:38  * goodger pats Samu 
23:08:46  <Samu> but would ruin it for human players
23:08:55  <Samu> it already is hard to construct water stuff
23:09:02  <Samu> hi
23:09:05  <Samu> goodger: ~
23:10:19  <sim-al2> It's always fun to see AI ships built on the wrong body of water, or in a tiny lake far from the sea
23:10:30  <sim-al2> Or just on a river with no locks
23:10:53  <goodger> my secretary of state for defence is always doing that in supreme ruler
23:11:17  <goodger> I don't see it much in openttd though FIRS seems happy to build bulk terminals on lakesides
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23:13:56  <Samu> - the AIs have trouble dealing with the 1corner thing
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23:20:12  <Samu> can AIs actually build locks?
23:20:43  <Samu> do they have the means, API or whatever, to build a lock? never seen any build them
23:20:48  <Samu> same as canal tiles and aqueducts
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23:29:18  <Samu> i'm gonna split this patch in two
23:29:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that's because andy failed to grasp the concept of magic water tiles to make sure there's a larger body of water
23:30:56  <Samu> i once had an idea to remove locks from the game
23:31:17  <Samu> and allow ships going up rivers
23:31:39  <goodger> they can't now?
23:31:51  <Samu> nop, it needs a lock
23:32:26  <Samu> makes water construction very tedious
23:32:51  <goodger> well, bugger
23:33:35  <Samu> another idea would be, instead of a lock being 3 tiles wide, make it only 1 tile
23:34:33  <Samu> keep the middle tile, remove the other 2 tiles
23:34:58  <Wolf01> We need proper locks, not even worse than they are
23:35:20  <Wolf01> Also, 'night
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23:40:10  <Samu> lol, nocab got some lost ships because otviai blocked passage with a ship depot
23:44:30  <Samu> alright, i've seen enough
23:44:49  <Samu> time to stop this test and split that patch
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