Log for #openttd on 8th October 2016:
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07:08:41  <Alberth> o/
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07:16:30  <Alberth> o/
07:16:45  <Alberth> more horses today?
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08:52:58  <frosch123> hoi
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08:58:41  <Samu> hi
09:30:09  <Alberth> hola
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10:31:30  <Milek7_> hm
10:31:45  <Milek7_> in squirrel assigning variable copies object or creates reference to it?
10:32:46  <Alberth> objects? always a reference
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13:12:45  <Samu> 5 of 6 ai tests completed, waiting for AIAI aircraft to reach 2051
13:13:14  <Samu> AIAI v97 performed worse than v95 with road vehicles and trains
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13:37:50  <Milek7_> it is possible in newgrf to read and perform math on vehicle properties set by other newgrf?
13:38:11  <Milek7_> for example shift every vehicle introduction date by 10 years
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13:45:47  <Samu> Kogut crash reports are so short
13:46:10  <Samu> quote: "crash"
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14:00:18  <Samu> nice, new RoadAI version on banana server
14:00:37  <Samu> time to test
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14:14:46  <Samu> started testing RoadAI
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14:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can only check for presence of another newgrf, not what's in it
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14:57:43  <Alberth> hi hi
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15:53:54  <Samu> I bet Grimes plays Path of Exile
15:54:18  <Samu> there's even a song named Belly of the Beat
16:05:01  <Samu> there's a labyrinth garden, a door, a library, ruins, a mountain... call me crazy, but too much coincidence
16:05:31  <Samu> oh yeah.. statues, statues everywhere
16:06:00  <Samu> even a coliseum
16:06:10  <Samu> meh, nobody here cares :(
16:08:33  <Samu> even a lake
16:18:07  <Samu> woah, mirrors too
16:23:33  <Samu> if AIAI aircraft doesn't crash, then he's gonna beat AdmiralAI
16:23:55  <Samu> still 25 years away from goal and already ahead in company value
16:32:22  <Samu> that settles it, statues! she plays poe
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17:03:20  <Wolf01> It's a-me Wolfo!
17:03:46  <Alberth> hihi
17:06:09  <Wolf01> Pc is back from hospital, with a provisional motherboard, courtesy of the shop
17:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't it better be "wolfio"?
17:09:47  <Wolf01> As you want
17:11:09  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could do "WolfOI" :p
17:11:46  <Wolf01> Mmmmh, how do I update a git project from VS?
17:12:07  <Wolf01> Oh, found it
17:12:13  <Eddi|zuHause> VS knows about versioning now?
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17:12:20  <Wolf01> In team explorer... fetch or pull?
17:12:31  <Wolf01> Yes, it does
17:12:53  <Wolf01> And does that so automagically I never noticed it until it asked for the password
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17:15:32  <glx> there's a git plugin yes
17:15:54  <Wolf01> I think I don't even installed it
17:16:41  <Wolf01> I just opened a project from a git checkout and VS added it on the team explorer
17:17:08  <Alberth> smart software :p
17:18:12  <Alberth> git fetch just gets stuff from remote,  pull also tries to merge it
17:18:46  <Alberth> always so useful to have hg od it just the other way around :p
17:18:51  <Alberth> *do
17:20:44  <Samu> what happened to your pc
17:21:22  <Wolf01> Poltergeist
17:29:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that
17:29:33  <Eddi|zuHause> 's basically why i never got warm with git, it uses all the wrong names for things
17:30:03  <Milek7_> i never used hg
17:31:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hg provides a much more natural/intuitive transition from svn, naming-convention-wise
17:31:45  <Wolf01> How do I set min_active_clients for a savegame in multiplayer?
17:32:10  <frosch123> pretty sure that's no savegame setting
17:32:16  <frosch123> so, set it on the server
17:32:30  <Wolf01> It doesn't give a fuck if I set it from console/openttd.cfg, when I load the save it starts
17:33:58  <Eddi|zuHause> when you try to learn git with svn background, you get a "why would they call it X when it does Y" feeling with every. single. command.
17:34:05  <Wolf01> Uhm, it can be that I'm hosting from client?
17:34:18  <Wolf01> And that only works with dedicated
17:34:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's only for dedicated
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17:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (and even if it's not, the non-dedicated server counts as a client)
17:35:39  <frosch123> what if you join spectators?
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17:36:11  <Wolf01> I set 0 spectators, I need to rehost, but I'm doing it with dedicated now
17:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> combine that "wtf" with every command with a community that when you ask "how do i do X" they don't tell you "do Y" but "you need to learn the basics"
17:37:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and your enthusiasm to learn git once and for all drops to 0
17:37:32  <Wolf01> True that, Eddi
17:39:03  <Milek7_> i can't imagine how some projects are still using svn
17:39:06  <Milek7_> it is terrible
17:39:56  <Alberth> it's an order of magnitude simpler than any distributed VCS
17:40:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure still the majority of projects don't use versioning at all
17:40:11  <frosch123> if not two magnitudes
17:40:53  <Alberth> distributed VCS is about the biggest gun you can find to solve the versioning problem
17:40:57  <frosch123> anything that requires merging first requires to learn about whitespace
17:44:01  <Alberth> and big guns come with big problems to handle
18:10:43  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you're american, you might come with a mindset that ignores problems with guns :p
18:11:26  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you mean "the gun is not the problem, but the solution"
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18:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: more like "if guns don't solve your problem, you're not using enough of them"
18:22:58  <Alberth> git does come with a model of how you should work, if you try to use it without the model it breaks badly
18:23:36  <Alberth> and it has a horrible user interface, although if you just stick to the simple elementary subset, it doesn't bother you much
18:23:49  <Alberth> except some stuff is a bit longwinded to do
18:25:01  <Milek7_> can command line tool can have user interface? :p
18:27:17  <Alberth> the command line is the user interface
18:28:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there can be bad and good command line interfaces
18:28:14  <Alberth> it's fully correct in the technical sense, but total crap from a HCI
18:28:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, which makes it completely inaccessible from a non-technical approach
18:31:10  <Alberth> if you ignore the over-engineered bits, it's not so bad, the sequence of commands are just a bit longer :p
18:31:29  <Alberth> but it's not svn-like or hg-like at all
18:32:30  <Alberth> I am suspecting they deliberately picked different names for everything to avoid people trying to use git as a svn/hg system
18:32:57  <Alberth> which is not so bad, the system is really different
18:34:47  <Alberth> the big difference is that you can also have remote repos locally
18:35:03  <Alberth> they just have different labels
18:36:53  <Alberth> s/can//   even, you have that as soon as you want to do anything with a remote repo
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18:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a new project i'll never do: program a tool called "tig" that operates on the git data structures with a sane comman naming
18:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> +d
18:51:46  <Wolf01> <Milek7_> can command line tool can have user interface? :p <- I made a web interface for SVN
18:53:23  <Wolf01> It was used to create the repositories and update the working copies on the staging server
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18:54:18  <Milek7_> Eddi|zuHause: what's wrong with git command names?
18:55:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7_: what's wrong with callind a table a chair, a boot a table, and a cell phone a modem?
18:55:33  <Wolf01> ^_^
18:56:02  <Alberth> there are a couple of git-rename command projects :)
18:56:49  <Wolf01> In git you make a checkout with clone, and a... I don't even know what with checkout
18:56:49  <Alberth> but obviously they all break on the different model that git uses
18:57:03  <Milek7_> change branch
18:57:21  <Milek7_> or switch to specific commit
18:57:27  <Alberth> what you expect to do with git branch, but you can't
18:57:38  <glx> easier to just use github application ;)
18:58:29  <Eddi|zuHause> what i always meant to ask: is there an official way to pronounce the "g" in "git"?
18:58:33  <Alberth> yeah, it's so bad people actually layer a tool on top of it to avoid using the command line
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18:59:00  <Eddi|zuHause> or is that like "gif" where there are two groups that are of opposite opinion and totally despise each other?
18:59:09  <Alberth> no doubt linus has an asnwer to that
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18:59:44  <Wolf01> SVN uses checkout, update and switch (to branch/tag), the commands seem pretty explainatory to me, with git, I fail to do a checkout 2 times every 3
18:59:59  <Alberth> I find it a non-issue, as whatever you pronounce it, you still type "g"
19:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> what i find weird is that my internal pronunciation of "git" and "gif" are not the same
19:01:00  <Alberth> Wolf01: don't try to push a svn or hg model onto git, it doesn't work
19:01:03  <Wolf01> I'm the only one which can read it different based on why writes it? (yes, I'm weird)
19:01:13  <Alberth> git has its own logic, separate from everything else
19:01:14  <Wolf01> *who
19:01:16  <Eddi|zuHause> by "internal" i mean the "sound" i make in my head while typing
19:01:41  <Alberth> well, perhaps the same as "apt-get" which I also constantly fail to understand
19:02:41  <Milek7_> apt is the worst packaging system that exists
19:03:03  <Wolf01> May I say NuGet?
19:03:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Milek7_: how is that statement different from "git is the worst versioning system that exists"?
19:03:41  <Eddi|zuHause> or "C++ is the worst programming language that exists"?
19:03:59  <glx> I'm with Wolf01 on NuGet :)
19:04:26  <Wolf01> No Eddi, that's PHP
19:04:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i don't think i ever used apt-get, and i have never heard of NuGet, which is probably understandable given the first fact
19:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: well, sure, but that's not stopping people making a statement like this :p
19:06:33  <Alberth> Milek7_: I think it's technically fully correct, the UI is just total crap
19:07:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: which is exactly what you said about git earlier :p
19:07:42  <Alberth> but some techies don't care about anybody but themselves
19:08:00  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I see a lot of parallels between both systems :)
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19:08:42  <Alberth> underlying technology is leading in the UI
19:08:53  <Alberth> instead of designing it from the top down
19:09:18  <Milek7_> i always have problems with dependecies with apt
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19:09:39  <Wolf01> I see a lot of parallels between everything, as everyone has his own preferred softwares and operational methods
19:09:52  <Wolf01> For example I love Windows 10
19:09:55  <Alberth> everything is connected!  :)
19:10:03  <Milek7_> something like "Depends: X but it is not going to be installed"
19:10:47  <glx> Wolf01: I have a nice UI translation fail for french in windows 10
19:10:59  <Wolf01> I usually force the install of dependencies, I don't even consider apt doing what it wants
19:13:03  <Milek7_> windows 10 have good error messages
19:13:09  <Milek7_> "something happened"
19:13:11  <Milek7_> :D
19:13:46  <Eddi|zuHause> can't beat earlier windows versions reporting "Error: No Error"
19:14:00  <glx> "update history" is translated in 2 different ways on the same page, and 1 is totally wrong
19:14:48  <Wolf01> Use the feedback tool and report it? :D
19:16:41  <glx> oh they failed at "update settings" too it seems
19:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> how many days until i can stop caring about an election in a far away country that i have no influence on?
19:21:21  <Samu> when america becomes poor
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19:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> some times i wish i could put stop-word filters on news sites
19:23:50  <glx> ho the translation error is already reported it seems
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19:25:51  <Wolf01> Andy was scared
19:27:28  <Eddi|zuHause> is that unusual?
19:28:17  <Wolf01> No, it's common that cats get scared for nothing
19:33:38  <Milek7_> i showed you tetris over ipv6 traceroute?
19:35:29  <Wolf01> Yes
19:35:55  <Wolf01> You or Samu did that
19:38:49  <Samu> what did i do?
19:42:20  <Samu> speaking of translations, what's happening to the portuguese translation of openttd?
19:42:34  <Samu> so many typos and missing strings lately
19:42:54  <glx> feel free to apply as a translator :)
19:43:39  <Samu> ahm... well i could try fix the most blatant errors
19:44:15  <glx>
19:45:03  <Samu> i had an account there, let's see if i remember
19:46:15  <Samu> Project Portuguese (pt_PT) OpenTTD trunk Start fixing
19:46:18  <Samu> is this it?
19:46:41  <glx> yes
19:47:12  <Samu> nice, got to run openttd in portuguese again for a while
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19:51:08  <andythenorth> seaplanes!
19:53:04  <debdog> polar bears!
19:56:24  <Wolf01> o/
19:57:15  <andythenorth> lo
19:59:15  <Supercheese> seaplane bears?
19:59:21  <Supercheese> bearplanes?
19:59:58  <andythenorth> bearoplanes
20:00:06  <andythenorth> sea zellepins
20:01:24  <Supercheese> already have sea zeps, for servicing those oil rigs
20:02:15  <Supercheese> also:
20:02:19  <Supercheese> sea zeppelin
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20:07:28  <Wolf01> Mmmh, dedcated server stuck at "starting game"
20:10:03  <Samu> gs?
20:10:12  <Wolf01> No
20:10:15  <Samu> some gs's take time to launch :(
20:10:35  <andythenorth> zellepin of the sea
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20:10:40  <andythenorth> Cat is gone
20:10:59  <goodger> prrrb
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20:22:52  <Wolf01> Firewall says OTTD is using port 2780 to advertise on master server, shouldn't it be 3978?
20:23:21  <Eddi|zuHause> needs more context
20:23:35  <Wolf01> Can't advertise on master server
20:23:46  <Wolf01> NAT ok, firewall ok
20:23:48  <Alberth> @ports
20:23:49  <DorpsGek> Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
20:24:06  <Alberth> nn
20:24:12  <Wolf01> nn
20:24:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you can usually ignore outgoing ports
20:24:25  <glx> master server listen on 3978
20:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> firewalls usually don't care about those
20:24:44  <glx> but it can be any port on your machine :)
20:25:19  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, for outgoing communication, source port is random
20:25:44  <Wolf01> I forwarded ports from 3977 to 3979 to the server IP (I moved it to another machine, here it worked)
20:26:17  <Eddi|zuHause> you forwarded both TCP and UDP?
20:26:22  <Wolf01> Yes
20:26:42  <glx> master server must be able to reach your server on the port your server tells it it is listening (3979 by default)
20:27:30  <Wolf01> I know that
20:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> when you say "here it worked", were you running the server on the router before?
20:28:17  <Wolf01> I have 2 pc, and I want to use the other one for dedicated server, as it's always on
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20:28:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and from where to where are you redirecting the route?
20:29:01  <Wolf01> On this pc I'm on now, I used to run the UI client to host the game
20:29:24  <Wolf01> Now I changed the IP on the router's NAT to point to the other pc
20:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> for both TCP and UDP?
20:29:52  <Wolf01> Yes, everything
20:30:00  <glx> usually I just add the machine on a different port :)
20:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're sure it's not the router, it's the firewall on the server
20:30:10  <Wolf01> I think I sould do that too
20:30:33  <glx> you rebooted the router after the change ?
20:30:44  <Wolf01> The firewall on the server already allos all activity (both tcp and udp) for the entire application, doesn't matter whichc pot
20:30:46  <Wolf01> *port
20:30:57  <Wolf01> No, I didn't
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20:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause> rebooting should not be necessary for any sane router
20:34:01  <Wolf01> Changed back the IP to this pc, it advertises succesfully, I'm adding a new forwarding rule with different ports
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20:35:08  <Wolf01> Ok, with different ports works, so I think glx is right
20:35:15  <Wolf01> I should reboot the router
20:35:39  <glx> no need if it works on a different port :)
20:35:54  <Eddi|zuHause> just leave the different port in
20:36:13  <Wolf01> Yes, but now I know that if I change the IP I need to reboot the thing
20:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a bug
20:37:13  <Wolf01> This poor thing has 10 years and don't have updates since 2009
20:37:22  <Samu> Error: String command for position 0 is wrong, base language uses {STRING}, the translation uses {STRING1}
20:37:27  <Samu> what does that mean?
20:37:49  <Samu> Base lang string: (travel for {STRING1}, not timetabled)
20:37:59  <Samu> I don't get the error
20:38:12  <Samu> (viajar durante {STRING1}, sem programação)
20:38:45  <glx> IIRC translations can only use {STRING}
20:39:12  <Samu> but base lang got {STRING1}
20:39:24  <glx> what's the string name ?
20:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> translations must use {STRING}, strgen will fill in the {STRINGn} from the master language (english)
20:41:29  <glx> yes only use {STRING} in translation
20:50:42  <Wolf01> Oh, lol, now the server's firewall is blocking this pc because it's thinking I'm trying to attack it on a specific port
20:51:00  <glx> stupid firewall
20:51:04  <Wolf01> Really
20:51:35  <Wolf01> And seem there isn't a way to tell it to let this ip pass no matter what
20:55:38  <Samu> how the heck do you translate things such as "Perlin noise"
20:55:49  <Wolf01> It's a name
20:56:00  <Wolf01> You don't translate names usually
20:56:14  <Wolf01> Except if you are italian
20:56:27  <glx> check how it's done on wiki ;)
20:58:02  <FLHerne> Samu: You could translate 'noise', if there's a suitable term
20:59:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> Except if you are italian <-- well, there are some examples of books that were translated into german, and it also changed place names, like "london" into "berlin"
20:59:40  <Wolf01> That's a lot of kilometers ;)
21:00:21  <glx> hehe they used to relocate anime in france in 80's
21:00:39  <Samu> Ruído de Perlin
21:00:41  <glx> changing all names
21:00:44  <Samu> lel
21:00:46  <Wolf01> Usually here they change anime chars names to something more recognisable, like Giovanni or Lucia or Mario
21:00:59  <Samu> sounds so retarded, but i'll use this
21:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause> usually, there are also later translations of the same book, with the original place names
21:01:52  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you're picking up old books, you sometimes need to make sure which version it is
21:02:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember that aldous huxley's "brave new world" was one such example
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21:14:50  <Samu> adviser or advisor?
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21:19:39  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and there are also names which have actual translations, like Charles -> Karl, Henry -> Heinrich
21:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> which you come across fairly often when talking about medieval kings and stuff
21:24:33  <Samu> Base lang string: Landscape: {STRING2} -> Cenário: {STRING2} Error: String command for position 0 is wrong, base language uses {STRING}, the translation uses {STRING2}
21:24:52  <Samu> i use {STRING} again?
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21:26:23  <Wolf01> Could I use the scrollto command to make a client scroll to that position?
21:27:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so, but maybe a gamescript can do that?
21:27:30  <Wolf01> It would be more useful a command on the client list
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21:58:33  <glx> Samu: always use {STRING}
21:59:02  <glx> all STRINGx are STRING in translations
22:00:32  <Samu> timetable translation is too confusing without watching the final result
22:05:30  <Samu> YESH! 0 strings missing, I win
22:05:38  <Samu> was already getting bored
22:10:43  <Samu> tomorrow i'll take a better look at this translation thing
22:20:18  <Samu> AIAI aircraft server ending in 3 years :)~
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22:51:09  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:26:51  <Samu> AIAI finished
23:27:11  <Samu> woah, almost doubled AdmiralAI which was the current no.1
23:56:16  <Samu> a quick fast forward game of roadai shows that the new version is performing worse t.t

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