Log for #openttd on 26th October 2016:
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00:05:14  <goodger> isn't facebook still mostly written in PHP and javascript
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03:43:04  <Hilton> Hello. I'd like to ask a question... when servicing a city, do you get better results from a single train station with bus/lorry stations combined into it (one single large station coverage area encompassing the whole town), or by having individual bus/lorry stops and having actual buses running around town? For the latter, is it better to have some buses with Transfer orders to the train...
03:43:05  <Hilton> ...station?)
03:46:49  <Hilton> I can see that I see to get much better ratings with buses running around to separate stations, but it also seems like the income is worse. Is that right?
03:56:25  <Sylf> What's your definition of "better results" in this case?
03:57:10  <Sylf> Income, town rating, town growth, station rating, game score, other?
03:57:42  <Hilton> Yes. :D
03:57:54  <Sylf> Pick one.
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03:58:29  <Hilton> Income. I have a good idea on how it affects most of the rest.
03:59:50  <Sylf> Then, it's probably easiest to have some kind of local transport, taking pax and mail from all parts of town to single train station
04:00:05  <Sylf> then let the train do long distance transport
04:00:39  <Hilton> By way of transfers, not regular cargo runs, right?
04:00:41  <Sylf> assuming you're not using infrastructure maintenance cost feature
04:00:56  <Sylf> it depends on the cargo dist setting
04:01:10  <Sylf> with cargo dist, using transfer order actually doesn't make sense
04:01:40  <Sylf> without cargo dist, use transfer order when unloading local transport vehicles
04:03:20  <Hilton> What's the default? Other than some purely visual items and realistic acceleration, most of my settings are 1.6.1 default
04:16:40  <Sylf> not sure.  probably without cargo dist
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04:24:04  <Hilton> Distribution Mode for all cargo types is set to Manual
04:24:09  <Hilton> no automatic distribution
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08:00:03  <Wolf01> o/
08:06:13  <Alkel_U3> good morning
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11:02:28  <Wolf01> Since I already demontrated that I'm incredibly stupid, how do I convert a flag to its bit position?
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11:08:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "find first bit" macro somewhere
11:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> src/core/bitmath_func.hpp:uint8 FindFirstBit(uint32 x);
11:09:43  <Wolf01> Uhm
11:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
11:11:15  <Wolf01> I have some memories of log2(value) or something like that
11:11:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but log is an extremely expensive operation
11:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> also, floating point.
11:12:33  <Wolf01> Ok, that function is a good approximation, could I borrow it?
11:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have a single bit set, you just right-shift until the value is zero
11:12:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and count the steps
11:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it's GPL. the usual rules apply
11:14:11  <Wolf01> Usually I take stuff from public domain only (stackoverflow snippets if they don't have a license)
11:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you know what you're looking for you might find other sources with similar functions that don't have GPL...
11:15:51  <asie> Wolf01:
11:15:54  <asie>
11:15:58  <asie> perhaps one of these?
11:16:10  <Wolf01> Or maybe I could just do it in another way
11:16:25  <Wolf01> Instead of using a normal array I use a dictionary
11:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause> well that is pretty much what i said
11:17:45  <Wolf01> Thanks asie, it will be really useful in future
11:17:50  <asie> no problem
11:18:40  <Wolf01> Also thanks Eddi to point me towards the implementation, so I can search better :)
11:19:08  <Wolf01> (I expected a "GetBitPos()")
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12:54:09  <Milek7> why store multiple flags packed in one byte?
12:54:12  <Milek7> memory is cheap
12:55:19  <goodger> it was somewhat less cheap in 1993
12:56:27  <Milek7> yes, but i guess that Wolf01 is writing something new
12:58:28  <Wolf01> Memory is cheap but writing type = A | B | C instead of type[] = {A, B, C} is cleaner, specially when you have to write a 300 chars long line
13:00:37  <goodger> needs more lisp imo
13:06:07  <Milek7> what are you trying to do? what flags are stored in type?
13:07:00  <_dp_> well then, why not {"A", "B", "C"} it is more flexible and doesn't pollute global namespace ;)
13:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the most stupid argument i have ever heard...
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13:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause> "hey, let's circumvent this feature where the compiler tells me when i made a typo"
13:09:19  <_dp_> well, it's more of a python way, there is no compiler xD
13:10:04  <Eddi|zuHause> there is.
13:10:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you just use it as a seamlessly integrated compiler in the interpreter
13:10:55  <_dp_> whatever, any typos are runtime
13:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> still better than silently failing
13:12:40  <_dp_> you have tests and asserts for it not to be silent
13:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that's even better... "let's circumvent this builtin feature and reimplement it"
13:15:45  <SpComb> you wouldn't have an array of flags, that would be expensive to test for flags being set
13:16:18  <_dp_> there are no enums in python, though you can reimplement them the other way
13:16:56  <Wolf01> I'm not using python :)
13:18:50  <_dp_> Wolf01, to be honest, there is no need for enum type when you can just do ZERO, ONE, TWO = range(3)
13:20:21  <Wolf01> I use enums to avoid using a wrong value
13:21:21  <Wolf01> Because "Directions.UP" and "Side.UP" might have a different value, other than different meaning
13:26:00  <Wolf01> I could use constants as DIRECTION_UP and SIDE_UP, but they are both "int" and I could put any int value as function argument
13:28:11  <Wolf01> If I want to check if AllowedDirection(Directions d) returns true if the direction is UP or DOWN, I would use a flag, because hardcoded ifs are not the solution, and allowed_directions.Contain(d) is expensive
13:28:52  <Wolf01> So, if you have better arguments, then I'm here and I can read
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13:45:48  <supermop___> yo
13:48:10  <Wolf01> o/
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13:58:05  <Wolf01> I need a level editor...
14:19:25  <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
14:22:43  <supermop___> i generally like my levels the way they come from the factory, but editing one to have the bubble at 30 degrees would be nice
14:23:20  <Wolf01> I need to make the levels first, my factory is empty XD
14:23:33  <Eddi|zuHause> new LevelFactory()
14:23:46  <Wolf01> And the level data?
14:23:54  <Eddi|zuHause> LevelFactory.getLevel()
14:24:01  <Wolf01> And the level data?
14:24:41  <Wolf01> If the levels folder is empty, it can't load anything
14:29:13  <Eddi|zuHause> 1. collect underpants
14:29:14  <Eddi|zuHause> 2. ?
14:29:17  <Eddi|zuHause> 3. profit
14:33:58  <Wolf01> I'm more like
14:33:58  <Wolf01> 1. sit at desktop
14:33:58  <Wolf01> 2. tap keyboard keys
14:33:58  <Wolf01> 3. ?
14:33:58  <Wolf01> 4. like what you have done
14:34:00  <Wolf01> 5. profit
14:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that's way more steps, no wonder it doesn't work...
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14:51:38  <Wolf01> o/
14:51:42  <Alberth> o/
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15:04:24  <Wolf01> Quak
15:08:29  <frosch123> hoi
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17:16:32  <argoneus> Shpuld: why is eurobeat such a good genre
17:16:36  <argoneus> er
17:16:40  <argoneus> omit that
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17:24:05  <Alberth> too late, it's broadcasted over the entire Internet already
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18:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the participle of "cast" is "cast", no "-ed"
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18:44:33  <andythenorth> isn’t it just
18:54:47  <frosch123> is "cast" related to "cat"?
19:00:15  <V453000> anus
19:00:15  <Alberth> it's a cat with an additional letter?
19:00:42  <Alberth> o/ V
19:00:57  <V453000> hello :)
19:00:58  <V453000> so
19:01:04  <V453000> I thought rails for openttd were hell
19:01:12  <V453000> until I started working on high resolution factorio rails
19:01:20  <Alberth> haha :)
19:01:21  <V453000> in openttd many of the problems are simply unsolvable
19:01:26  <V453000> in factorio it's much more complex
19:01:44  <V453000> because you actually have to solve them :D
19:01:50  <Alberth> :D
19:01:56  <V453000> also moar resolution = more hell
19:02:36  <frosch123> is f also only sprite-sorting? or does it use some z buffer?
19:02:48  <V453000> only sprite sorting
19:03:23  <frosch123> so you need sprites for all junction combinations :p
19:03:30  <V453000> well that's the problem
19:03:37  <V453000> there are NO junction combinations :D
19:03:37  <frosch123> 2^16 or how many?
19:03:48  <V453000> all tracks are drawn exactly the same way in ALL cases
19:03:56  <V453000> so they need to tile in all imaginable combinations
19:04:07  <Alberth> omg
19:04:30  <V453000> it's 100 sprites in high, and 100 sprites in low resolution anyway XD
19:04:31  <frosch123> i guess your best try is to convince them to add a z buffer then :p
19:04:48  <V453000> (each tile consists of 4 layers so it's like 24 or something tiles)
19:04:51  <V453000> some with variations
19:04:55  <V453000> ha
19:05:02  <V453000> nah I actually solved pretty much all of it now
19:05:11  <Alkel_U3> you can blur that and get away with it in lowres, in one of the last hi-res FFF it looked like a decent clusterfuck of sleepers
19:05:27  <V453000> there are a few unsolvable things which I am just trying to solve visually to minimize their visibility
19:05:30  <frosch123> i can only play f in low res anyway :)
19:05:32  <V453000> but it's going well :)
19:05:38  <V453000> frosch123: time for a new gpu :P
19:05:41  <Alkel_U3> I'm really curious what it will look like
19:05:51  <V453000> but I'm reworking the lowres as well
19:05:57  <V453000> so the system will be there, just not as many pixels :P
19:05:59  <V453000> can't hide from it
19:06:16  <frosch123> considered that, but it was kind of rude that f managed to lock up the whole computer by running out of gpu memory or something
19:06:22  <V453000> XD
19:06:32  <V453000> "rude
19:06:35  <V453000> "
19:06:49  <V453000> you should see what blender does when it runs out of vram
19:07:15  <V453000> [freezes the pc for several minutes completely, shuts down monitors, crashes blender]
19:08:20  <andythenorth> you’re a vram
19:08:31  <V453000> your mom is a vram
19:08:38  <V453000> can't be big enough
19:08:58  <V453000> gg? :)
19:09:05  <V453000> do you even tram?
19:09:41  <andythenorth> today I ISO 27001
19:09:44  <andythenorth> tramz not
19:10:05  <V453000> don't think I want to know what that ISO means
19:10:10  <andythenorth> such ISO
19:10:17  <frosch123> V453000: you need it to get public money
19:10:28  <V453000> hm
19:10:34  <andythenorth> also child #1 has been vomiting all day
19:10:47  <andythenorth> and the nanny vomited so child #2 was also here all afternoon
19:10:50  <V453000> nice
19:10:52  <andythenorth> no tramz
19:10:58  <frosch123> the dog of a coworker was vomiting at the office yesterday all day
19:10:58  <andythenorth> wife just got hom
19:11:00  <andythenorth> home *
19:11:04  * andythenorth making dinner
19:11:09  <andythenorth> dog vom
19:11:34  <V453000> wife is at cinema for the first time after a long time, am home with #1
19:11:46  <andythenorth> won’t be making #2 that way
19:11:48  <V453000> situation stable
19:11:56  <V453000> -> railz
19:12:05  <andythenorth> baby monitor TV?
19:12:11  <V453000> arr
19:12:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: you don’t _need_ 27001 to get public money
19:12:43  <andythenorth> but it’s a shitload more paperwork to fill in quite often, compared to just getting the ISO
19:13:10  <andythenorth> “oh you have ISO 27001” versus “here is our infosec compliance spreadsheet"
19:14:16  <frosch123> don't think any customer would know about the latter
19:18:08  <andythenorth> mine do :P
19:18:14  <andythenorth> or their IT dept does
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19:59:14  <andythenorth> tramz?
20:08:22  <Alberth> bedz?
20:09:48  <andythenorth> maybe
20:10:15  <andythenorth> or ‘devices will conform to a controlled configuration'
20:10:23  <andythenorth> what larks
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20:20:39  <Alberth> night
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21:44:58  <Wolf01> A. Use one timer with "reloadTime / level" (you start with 1, you can shot one projectile for each reload)
21:44:58  <Wolf01> B. Instance n-level timers and each projectile has it's own reloadTime (you can shot up to "level" projectiles at the same time but reload time stay the same)
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21:45:53  <Wolf01> Which one would be better?
21:46:10  <Wolf01> A seem easy
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21:50:17  <andythenorth> try A
21:50:23  <andythenorth> see what gameplay demands
21:50:46  <andythenorth> I made maybe 30 or 40 commercial flash games
21:50:50  <Wolf01> A is already in place, and I think it's the original game behaviour
21:51:02  <andythenorth> I learnt when to do the minimum, and when to plan ahead for flexibility
21:51:08  <Wolf01> But I don't want to make the exact original game
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21:51:36  <andythenorth> how many guns, just one?
21:51:45  <andythenorth> tanks have multiple weapon systems… ;)
21:51:49  <Wolf01> One, some tanks have 2
21:51:58  <Wolf01> Or even 3
21:52:21  <Wolf01> I think that leveling up you just will be better at reloading
21:52:54  <Wolf01> But for 2 guns tanks you should be able to shot 2 times with 2 reloads
21:53:31  <andythenorth> you can’t reload until the projectile has landed / exploded?
21:53:38  <andythenorth> or it’s a fixed rate of fire?
21:54:00  <andythenorth> I’ve seen both in game mechanics, but the fixed rate of fire is usually better
21:54:09  <Wolf01> Yes you can, I started with the idea that you can't fire again until the first projectile exploded
21:54:25  <andythenorth> that is good if you’re prioritising accuracy, but otherwise it sucks
21:54:40  <andythenorth> a lot of 80s games did it, probably because they could only animate one projectile at once
21:54:42  <Wolf01> But I can't put 3 things which behave differently on the same mechanism
21:54:55  <andythenorth> what are your projectiles?
21:55:42  <Wolf01> Power up based, you start with a normal whell, then you upgrade to AP, HE, HEAP with different powerups
21:55:57  <Wolf01> AP do more damage to tanks, HE to walls
21:56:00  <andythenorth> how much does realism matter?
21:56:08  <Wolf01> It doesn't matter at all :D
21:56:11  <andythenorth> good
21:56:19  <andythenorth> if you have wire guided weapons, it’s one at once :P
21:56:37  <andythenorth> fire and forget weapons, that’s down to fire rate of the gun / loader
21:56:53  <Wolf01> I'm planning to add unarmed tanks (APCs?) for objective missions
21:57:14  <Wolf01> And other unarmed tanks which have a time bomb
21:57:26  <andythenorth> do you have a ‘current projectile type’ concept in the code?
21:57:32  <Wolf01> YEs, I do
21:57:42  <andythenorth> so just give each type a fixed fire rate?
21:57:47  <Wolf01> I can switch it for debug purpose
21:57:50  <andythenorth> firing is key / mouse?
21:58:03  <Wolf01> Yes
21:58:06  <Wolf01> Key
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21:58:27  <andythenorth> projectile type defines rate, in seconds or game ticks, lock out firing for that period
21:58:48  <Wolf01> Yup
21:58:57  <andythenorth> what happens if you switch projectile in that period? :P
21:59:04  <andythenorth> always an edge case to consider :)
21:59:05  <Wolf01> Restarts reload from 0
21:59:19  <andythenorth> so you can fire straight away if you switch?
21:59:33  <andythenorth> or the opposite?
21:59:34  <Wolf01> No, you need to wait the game ticks again
22:00:07  <andythenorth> do you have finite supply of each projectile type?
22:00:20  <Wolf01> Infinite
22:00:29  <andythenorth> so no need to auto-switch if they run out
22:00:44  * andythenorth tries to think of other edge cases
22:00:46  <Wolf01> No, it switches only if you find a powerup
22:00:54  <andythenorth> does taking damage affect fire rate?
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22:01:03  <Wolf01> No
22:01:09  <andythenorth> does terrain affect fire rate?
22:01:12  <Wolf01> No
22:01:15  <andythenorth> simples :)
22:01:47  <Wolf01> I think I'll go for A, it scales better with level
22:01:49  <andythenorth> is there any option for sustained fire, followed by longer reload period?
22:02:43  <Wolf01> You mean like a magazine?
22:03:07  <andythenorth> yes, or repeated fire, after which the barrel is too hut
22:03:10  <andythenorth> hot *
22:03:12  <andythenorth> realism :P
22:03:22  <Wolf01> I considered that for B
22:03:28  <andythenorth> ‘hold down space for burst'
22:03:45  <Wolf01> But with A doesn't make sense
22:03:50  <andythenorth> can I upgrade the fire rate with any power ups or shopping or anything?
22:03:59  * andythenorth just thinking of edge cases
22:04:01  <Wolf01> Mainly powerups
22:04:25  <andythenorth> do the simple thing, it’s easier to refactor later :)
22:04:26  <Wolf01> You will find "level up" powerups
22:04:58  * andythenorth must to sleep, good luck :D
22:05:19  <Wolf01> nn
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22:06:22  <goodger> I am mildly disturbed by the UK's new DEMU order
22:07:33  <Wolf01> TL;DR
22:12:03  <sim-al2> Class 800?
22:12:10  <sim-al2> 80x?
22:12:50  <goodger> yeah
22:14:13  <sim-al2> What's wrong with them?
22:16:42  <sim-al2> I've read that they have a few seats that don't really windows, and a few other minor things, but they seem (so far) to be pretty nice
22:16:54  <sim-al2> *really have windows
22:18:54  <goodger> sliding doors, non-Jacobs bogies, unproven line-speed power source switchover tech, they've ordered 1222 cars for more or less simultaneous introduction, and all but 330 have diesel engines
22:19:02  <sim-al2> >UK
22:19:11  <sim-al2> >Jacobs bogies
22:19:48  <sim-al2> There's a bit of a loading gauge problem that would probably make for some really short cars with articulation like that
22:20:31  <sim-al2> Nothing wrong with sliding doors, I do agree with you on the other points that it's a lot of new stuff mostly untested
22:21:23  <sim-al2> The vast majority of Japanese trains have sliding doors, including Shinkansens, and the trains that operate in the far north in fairly extreme cold and snow
22:21:44  <goodger> and yet these are three metres longer than the mk3/4 cars
22:22:23  <sim-al2> I don't think the engines would fit in articulated cars unless you do something like the old DEMUs
22:22:33  <goodger> the sliding doors pretty much guarantee increased noise and drag, as opposed to plug doors
22:22:35  <sim-al2> Weight and packaging problems
22:23:08  <goodger> still, I don't have to use them
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22:24:41  <goodger> I guess my main problem with these is my memory of the class 395
22:25:53  <goodger> uncomfortable seats, jolting passengers around so they become nauseous, breaking down all the time
22:26:21  <goodger> introducing british manufacturing isn't going to have helped the situation, especially if you're doing a huge volume
22:27:27  <goodger> though I suppose the 395 had a different kind of unwise kludge from the unwise kludge that will probably keep this lot out of full service for ages
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