Log for #openttd on 28th October 2016:
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00:08:31  <Ethereal_Shiver> I'm playing OpenTTD in class instead of paying attention
00:08:32  <Ethereal_Shiver> XD
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01:18:56  <womble> It's called "doing homework for my logistics class"
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01:21:27  <Ethereal_Shiver> Lol womble
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07:30:04  <Ethereal_Whisper> gnarly rail yard, eh?
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08:14:05  <Alberth> bit empty, for the amount of track :)
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08:15:48  <Alberth> why do you have such short platforms? wouldn't longer trains be more efficient here?
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10:53:51  <Alberth> o/
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11:09:06  <Wolf01> o/
11:38:36  <Alberth> bbl
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13:38:32  <supermop> yo
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13:56:01  <Ethereal_Whisper> I had a question about MSH's
13:56:43  <Ethereal_Whisper> So let's say that as usual the MSH is a 3-way T junction. You have traffic coming east and west and both turning to the north, towards the station
13:57:08  <Ethereal_Whisper> Is there any reason to prioritize traffic coming in from one direction when the two directions form the MSL?
13:58:27  <Ethereal_Whisper> So let's say that as usual the MSH is a 3-way T junction. You have traffic coming east and west and both turning to the north, towards the station
13:58:31  <Ethereal_Whisper> Oops
13:58:54  <Ethereal_Whisper> Here's my example
13:59:28  <Ethereal_Whisper> MSL entering station is eastbound, I have traffic coming in from the north and the south (well I will eventually, I'm in the planning stage of the network and designing this MSH
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14:05:05  <Wolf01> I think you still keep doing the same errors
14:05:57  <Ethereal_Whisper> What did I do this time
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14:06:13  <Wolf01> Read it as "overcomplicate junctions with priorities and too many trains"
14:06:36  <Wolf01> I don't get 50 trains in an entire game
14:06:45  <Wolf01> And still make huge profits
14:09:54  <Ethereal_Whisper> I think my record for number of trains in one game was about 1,200 on a 512x512 map
14:10:09  <Ethereal_Whisper> That was the first game I played where I learned how to build quad track mainlines
14:11:42  <Wolf01> I do that too, but only from the station up to the first junction when I have about half of trains on each line
14:16:58  <Wolf01> V453000, how do you download more than one mod?
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14:43:48  <supermop> i think i am now arguing on forums in support of baldy's boss instead of against
14:44:53  <Wolf01> Wololo!
14:45:30  <supermop> even though i started as arguing against
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14:51:08  <Wolf01> o/
14:51:14  <Alberth> hi hi
14:51:36  <supermop> yo
14:55:08  <supermop> how's it going Alberth ?
14:55:17  <Ethereal_Whisper> o/
14:56:01  <Alberth> mostly needing some coffee now
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15:08:33  <supermop> me too
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16:32:39  <Ethereal_Whisper> I love it when I accidentally place a backwards signal and my trains head down a random sideline
16:33:32  <Eddi|zuHause> is that better or worse than forgetting a random piece of electrification?
16:34:02  <Ethereal_Whisper> Tiny bit better I'd think... at least in my case, my trains will make it to their destination... eventually.
16:34:23  <Ethereal_Whisper> ;Although depending on circumstance, yours might too, they just might take a convoluted route
16:34:43  <Wolf01> And you never played with pipelines, you can't even see what kind of signal you placed
16:39:20  <supermop> easier to just not use signals with pipe
16:39:44  <supermop> and have relay points
16:39:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i still think these "pipes" made all the wrong choices...
16:40:23  <Wolf01> Yes, they need to be done with RoadTypes
16:40:37  <supermop> at least as just a standalone newgrf theey don't impinge on a future pipe working better
16:40:50  <supermop> Wolf01: pipes should be one way only
16:41:30  <Eddi|zuHause> there are certainly two-way pipes
16:41:31  <supermop> and not based on a current waytype
16:41:55  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: not at the same time unless its two pipes
16:43:09  <supermop> one advantage of a pipe from oil well to terminal is you don't need an empty return pipe, the way you'd need to send empty tanker cars
16:43:40  <supermop> and if two points do need to send liquids in both directions, you should build two pipes
16:44:33  <Wolf01> Agreed, but there's no teleport in OTTD yet
16:45:16  <supermop> pipes, conveyors, bucketlines, logflumes, etc where cargo is carried continuously by the infrastructure should work in that way
16:51:01  <supermop> basically there is no existing mechanic in the game that would approximate it
16:54:54  <supermop> other than some kind of 'pump' in the form of a magic depot that constantly spawns units of carrying capacity at a certain rate, which behave like road vehicles with no orders, picking up cargo where it is waiting, dropping it where accepted, and blindly following the available path forward
16:56:13  <Wolf01> Buy vehicle, cost 1$ -> move  per day -> Sell, do this automagically between 2 depots and is done
16:56:39  <Wolf01> Using RoadTypes so cargo could pile up in the line
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16:57:07  <Wolf01> And vehicle can carry 1 unit of cargo
16:57:37  <Wolf01> In case of fluids, 1x100 litres barrel
16:57:58  <Wolf01> Or even less
17:02:29  <Wolf01> nice
17:08:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen the term "4X" all over the place lately, but nobody could explain to me what it means
17:08:49  <Wolf01> expand explore exwhatever...
17:09:48  <Wolf01> "eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, and eXterminate"
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17:11:44  <Wolf01> Quak
17:14:07  <frosch123> when a bug fix for station walking?
17:15:11  <Wolf01> Never
17:15:59  <Wolf01> Qhat does it need to fix?
17:16:03  <Wolf01> *what
17:16:07  <frosch123> no idea
17:16:23  <frosch123> i just quoted a mail, though i replaced a screenshot with a noun
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17:16:56  <Wolf01> Answer: "it's by design"
17:17:10  <Wolf01> "You can even do it with less effort using ctrl"
17:18:14  <Wolf01> The catchement area maybe could be fixed, as now it's a huge exploit
17:19:03  <goodger> I would like to share this off-topic photo because I liked it, my apologies in advance
17:19:47  <Wolf01> Autumn?
17:20:19  <goodger> it happens every year, Wolf01
17:20:35  <goodger> twice if you move between hemispheres
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17:42:44  <Eddi|zuHause> BAD FEATURE!
17:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (where "BAD" stands for "Broken As Designed")
17:46:36  <supermop> BADASS FEATURE
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17:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: but that means you could avoid it entirely by that method
17:48:27  <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: it does, but who wants to get hayfever twice?
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18:50:07  <Alberth> o/
18:50:11  <Wolf01> o/
18:51:04  <andythenorth> lo
18:51:45  <supermop> lego boats today?
18:52:13  <andythenorth> so much not
18:52:39  <andythenorth> so much ISO 27001
18:52:44  <supermop> disappointing
18:54:37  <andythenorth> are there pictures somewhere?
18:54:48  <andythenorth> I love the City fans
18:55:00  <andythenorth> they’re on a par with Apple fans
18:55:11  <andythenorth> ‘OMG, more police, Lego is dying’
18:55:18  <Wolf01> I got the Caterham and VW Beetle today
18:55:19  <andythenorth> ‘OMG, it’s just a laptop, Apple is dying'
18:55:54  <andythenorth> Wolf01: mash them together ;)
18:56:00  <andythenorth> Caterbeetle
18:56:17  <Wolf01> I won't even open them... I still have the Mini MISB
18:56:28  <andythenorth> boring Eurobricks is boring today
18:56:57  <andythenorth> is forums?
18:56:59  * andythenorth looks
18:57:09  <Alberth> not much
18:57:26  <andythenorth> V453000: YOU MUST BUY SURFACE
18:57:31  <andythenorth> HAS BEEN DECLARED COOL
18:57:44  <andythenorth> DRAW ALL TRAINS IN SURFACE
18:58:03  <andythenorth> forums not much
18:58:03  <Wolf01> <------
18:58:16  <andythenorth> is that what V453000 looks like? :o
19:00:09  <Wolf01> Totally
19:02:17  <Wolf01> andythenorth, new cargo, wind turbine blades?
19:02:18  <Wolf01>
19:02:34  <andythenorth> that was going to be a FIRS thing
19:02:38  <andythenorth> ‘build a wind farm'
19:02:42  <andythenorth> but eh, nah
19:05:20  <andythenorth> straw poll
19:05:25  <andythenorth> who has 32GB RAM?
19:05:35  <andythenorth> apparently it’s now pretty much mandatory
19:06:00  <Wolf01> 16 here
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19:06:16  <Alberth> I have 16GB too
19:07:40  * andythenorth 16GB
19:07:46  * andythenorth reading mac forums, which are weird
19:08:06  <andythenorth> apparently lack of 32GB Macbook Pro means Apple is dead and the stock will now tank
19:08:35  <andythenorth> weird people who buy a computer in closed ecosystem, from a vendor who is known to be ruthless
19:08:38  <andythenorth> and then they whine about it
19:11:24  <frosch123> computers are dead :)
19:11:42  <andythenorth> have been forever
19:11:56  <frosch123> anyway, the "easy stats" are indeed the same when comparing 2010 and 2016
19:12:03  <Wolf01> Computers are dead until you need a new one
19:12:07  <frosch123> same number of cores, same amount of memory
19:12:38  <Alberth> you're not supposed to do more complex things nowadays
19:12:54  <frosch123> ssd are bigger, and multi-display is more common, but that's about it
19:16:32  * andythenorth wonders how people are still managing to need more than 16GB frequently
19:16:36  <andythenorth> on a laptop
19:17:21  <Wolf01> nice accident
19:17:52  <andythenorth> could have been brutal :o
19:18:21  <Wolf01> Proven that Balrog's whip can't cut steel beams
19:18:55  <Wolf01> Can't cut Gandalf's leg too
19:18:56  <andythenorth> the number of times I have found that my computer is slow because it’s in swap….
19:19:15  <Wolf01> How the fuck do you even manage to swap with 16GB?
19:19:18  <andythenorth> yeah never
19:19:36  <andythenorth> maybe running multiple Windows VMs
19:19:39  <andythenorth> but not noticeably
19:19:43  <frosch123> i have that issue on an 8gb machine regulary :)
19:19:48  <andythenorth> plus…err SSD with SATA 3 or something
19:20:04  <Wolf01> I did... memory leak on my game 2 days ago, tried to allocate 40GB in 6 seconds
19:20:31  <andythenorth> numpty on forum complains “I have to restart my mac every 2-3 days because it’s out of memory”
19:20:38  <andythenorth> err, no, restart Firefox :P
19:20:49  <frosch123> though i never quite figured out the point of swapping
19:20:57  <frosch123> once the swapping starts the machine is useless
19:20:59  <andythenorth> as usual, reading the wrong forum causes andythenorth rant
19:21:15  <Wolf01> :D
19:21:59  <frosch123> andythenorth: that is definitely a reason to buy more memory
19:22:08  <frosch123> so it only runs out after 10 days
19:23:00  <andythenorth> yup
19:23:33  <frosch123> btw. what are apple updates like?
19:23:40  <andythenorth> OS ones?  Or hardware?
19:23:51  <frosch123> are they like windows with at least one 1 reboot, sometimes 2, or even 3?
19:24:01  <andythenorth> they are very variable
19:24:03  <frosch123> or are they like linux, reboot only if kernel updates
19:24:13  <andythenorth> usually only reboot for kernel or similar
19:24:19  <andythenorth> but they can be sketchy
19:24:29  <andythenorth> I installed one on Tuesday that bricked my mac
19:24:47  <andythenorth> and that is not rare enough
19:25:14  <andythenorth> 7 hours faffing with backups
19:25:20  <andythenorth> waste of time
19:25:24  <frosch123> i thought that only happens with smartphones :)
19:25:39  <andythenorth> if only
19:26:22  * andythenorth wonders what the mac fans expected in a new laptop
19:26:25  <andythenorth> they all seem very sad
19:26:35  <Wolf01> Longer power cord?
19:26:52  <andythenorth> power cord with emojis?
19:28:37  * andythenorth would have settled for (a) same or longer battery life, not shorter (b) no 20% price hike
19:28:53  <Wolf01> To not pay for standard features as accessories?
19:29:05  <Wolf01> Oh, my bad, that's Apple motto: less is more
19:29:52  <frosch123> do laptop batteries also burn regulary? or is that only a smartphone thing?
19:30:37  <frosch123> also, are tablets finally dead? or did someone find some use?
19:31:13  <Alberth> maybe it's a function where the chance increases as the laptop approaches smartphone size?
19:31:54  <frosch123> also do laptops still have cd drives?
19:32:00  <andythenorth> tablets are for entertaining children
19:32:16  <andythenorth> and for grandparents
19:32:16  <frosch123> interesting point
19:32:39  <Wolf01> Children and people which don't need a pc to do the same things
19:32:41  <frosch123> can we have some outdoor tablet then?
19:32:50  <frosch123> sandbox safe?
19:33:03  <andythenorth> must be one
19:33:18  <frosch123> Wolf01: i thought that's what a ps4 is for
19:33:19  <andythenorth> ipad is surprisingly robust
19:33:27  <andythenorth> in a good case
19:33:45  <andythenorth> we have one that’s been outside, on planes, by the pool, in bed, thrown down the stairs, dropped etc
19:34:00  <andythenorth> slept on, trodden on, fought over
19:34:44  <andythenorth> ho
19:35:29  <Alberth> ipad test center :)
19:35:39  <andythenorth> apparently if Jobs was still alive, the new Macbook would *definitely* have been two sheets of glass, both displays, but with a full keyboard with real clicky keys, every kind of port, 64GB, a desktop class GPU, 10 hour battery life and a 5K display
19:35:48  <andythenorth> for the same price as the previous model
19:36:46  <andythenorth> all “I’ve been using macs for 30 years and now I’m seriously considering switching” people
19:36:47  <frosch123> "every kind of port" is interesting, given that all of Jobs has always been "minimalism"
19:37:24  <andythenorth>
19:39:11  <frosch123> i think i read that some years ago
19:39:11  <andythenorth> still, it’s not all gloom and doom:
19:39:16  <frosch123> probably also from this chanel :)
19:39:36  <andythenorth> new mac charges via the thunderbolt port
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19:39:43  <andythenorth> exploits galore
19:40:04  <andythenorth> in principle, you can no longer trust mains electricity
19:40:24  <andythenorth> proper tinfoil hat land
19:45:40  <Wolf01> Ha!
19:46:56  <supermop> haha
19:48:40  <Wolf01> BTW, full Surface Studio video
19:52:45  <frosch123> doesn't look like paintbrush
19:53:11  <andythenorth> I don’t think it will fit in my bag
19:53:30  <andythenorth> how much battery life?
19:53:44  <Wolf01> I don't think is battery powered
19:55:03  * andythenorth wonders why the mac people are comparing the price of it to macbooks
19:55:04  <frosch123> is it cloud powered? and does it transfer the rights of what you draw to ms?
19:55:40  <Wolf01> Win 10 does that already, no need for new hardware
19:55:44  <andythenorth> how long is the battery life on a cloud?
19:57:47  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe they are comparing the keyboard of the two
19:58:10  <frosch123> i mean that surface thing does not look like it has an ESC key
19:59:10  <frosch123> though, given that we are back to one input device again, maybe we will regain a scroll lock :p
19:59:12  <Wolf01> Bluetooth keyboard, also you don't even need a keyboard with windows
19:59:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: innovation :)
19:59:50  <frosch123> Wolf01: windows is responsible for at least 3 completely useless keys
20:00:23  <Wolf01> Scroll lock, context menu and?
20:00:30  <frosch123> that is 3 out of the top 5 completely useless keys
20:00:50  <frosch123> 2xwin, context, scroll lock, pause
20:00:57  * andythenorth wonders what these idiots actually want :)
20:01:05  <andythenorth> they don’t like tablets
20:01:08  <andythenorth> nvm
20:01:08  <frosch123> "print screen" has a usecase as hotkey for launching a single program
20:01:29  <Wolf01> I even found a way to use scroll lock on MS softwares
20:01:31  <frosch123> (though it is kind of specific)
20:01:36  <Wolf01> I don't remember what
20:01:57  <Wolf01> Win+Pause takes screenshots now
20:02:47  <frosch123> oh, i forgot caps lock in the list
20:03:09  <frosch123> though maybe that one is more annoying than useless :p
20:03:19  <andythenorth> mine still has a little green light in it :)
20:03:40  <andythenorth> must be an actual LED under there
20:06:10  <andythenorth> I will have to get a USB escape key if I get the new mac
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20:07:51  <frosch123> you could  map caps lock to esc
20:07:59  <frosch123> that may also make vi useful again
20:08:13  <frosch123> same keyboard layout as it was developed for
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20:08:58  <frosch123> yeah, that must be it. the new mac is for optimising vi usage
20:09:14  <Wolf01> this one?
20:09:29  <andythenorth> yes
20:09:34  <andythenorth> for mac and surface users
20:09:47  <andythenorth> wow
20:10:01  <andythenorth> I have stumbled into a forum where “Apple is dead because they have stopped making monitors"
20:10:02  <Wolf01> You don't need the ESC key on windows
20:10:16  <andythenorth> what kind of numpty ever bought an Apple display :o
20:10:19  <Wolf01> I only use it to exit my game
20:10:52  <frosch123> andythenorth: for some time they were the only ones building 30 inch screens
20:11:04  <andythenorth> about 15 years ago :)
20:11:12  <andythenorth> when even windows users bought them
20:12:05  * andythenorth uses ESC all the time in OpenTTD, but can’t remember why
20:12:24  <frosch123> to deselct the curren tool
20:12:32  <frosch123> in f it's q though
20:12:38  <frosch123> f doesn't use esc
20:14:13  * andythenorth wonders if a £200 premium over old model is worth it for fingerprint ID
20:14:28  <andythenorth> I have to use a password with 44 bits of entropy…because infosec
20:14:40  <andythenorth> and I have to lock laptop if unattended, even briefly, anywhere
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20:15:01  <andythenorth> I usually type it wrong, and I type it tens of times per day :P
20:15:36  *** roidal has quit IRC
20:17:31  <Wolf01> They should make 2 versions of ISO 27001, the lite one for companies which don't have governative secrets or manage users bank accounts or medical data, and the current one for where you need max security
20:18:26  <andythenorth> you can choose to not apply control
20:18:27  <andythenorth> controls *
20:18:35  <Wolf01> Which is bad
20:18:39  <andythenorth> you just have to have a risk profile
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20:18:50  <andythenorth> dunno, there’s this standard in the UK called Cyber Essentials
20:18:58  <andythenorth> which is supposed to be like ISO 27001 Lite
20:19:03  <andythenorth> and is mosly terrible
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20:22:53  <Wolf01> Sometimes security is strange, like with PPE, my mother does blood samples and need to use gloves. Usually you don't even get in contact with the person blood, but it might happen that the person moves and the needle slips, and YOU get punctured, gloves or not.
20:27:49  <andythenorth> can’t mitigate all risks :)
20:28:33  <andythenorth> probably can mitigate needlestick, with the right needles
20:28:36  <andythenorth> but expense...
20:31:47  <Wolf01> Nah, just sedate the patient so he can't move
20:38:04  <andythenorth> mmm sedation
20:38:10  <andythenorth> sedation is good
20:38:19  * andythenorth should go to bed 
20:38:30  <Wolf01> Me too
20:38:49  <Wolf01> But I'll go 3 hours later
20:40:33  * andythenorth learns about USB-C and USB 3.1 and Thunderbolt
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21:37:27  <Youbi> Hello! I’m trying to run openttd (built from nightly). But it claims that I miss a graphics set.
21:37:46  <Youbi> So I built OpenGFX, and put the resulting tar archive in my ~/.openttd/baseset dir
21:39:15  *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
21:39:16  <Youbi> And now, when I run openttd, it still claims that I miss a graphics set, but before that, it tells me that there is :
21:39:18  <Youbi> No MD5 checksum specified for: ogfx1_base.grf
21:39:33  <Youbi> How can I specify the checksum for that file?
21:41:29  <Youbi> Should I build OpenGFX from it’s latest source revision?
21:43:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you didn't copy the .obg file
21:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or it didn't generate properly
21:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe try downloading the already-made file?
21:47:23  <Youbi> Eddi|zuHause: it works!
21:47:29  <Youbi> I tried the already-made file.
21:47:58  <Youbi> I was stupid, I thought that it wouldn’t run because I’m on a libmusl based system. But there is nothing to do with it.
21:48:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the .grf files are universal for all platforms
21:49:40  <Youbi> \o/
21:49:46  <Youbi> Thank for your help :)
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23:16:31  <Wolf01> 'night
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