Log for #openttd on 26th November 2016:
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05:26:37  <Flygon> Is there a chart that shows pax. loading speeds for non-Metro EMUs?
05:27:01  <Flygon> I'm interested on if the Red Rattlers do actually unload/reload as fast as Metro EMUs, given they're almost entirely doors
05:27:41  <Flygon> Each handle has a door attached @_@
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05:37:57  <sim-al2> Pretty narrow doors though
05:39:31  <Flygon_> Yeah, but half the EMU is still doors :U
05:39:40  <Flygon_> Sliding Door sets had a similiar quirk
05:39:56  <Flygon_> (They're both rebuilds of carriage-only stock, only door types differentiated them)
05:40:17  <Flygon_> (Hence, everyone just called them both Red Rattlers. Electronically and mechanically the same thing)
05:40:32  <sim-al2> Don't forget that the guard or station staff might have to close doors left open
05:40:40  <Flygon_> Sliding ver.
05:40:49  <Flygon_> Trust me, they didn't give a crap :D
05:40:51  <Flygon_> It was very
05:41:02  <Flygon_> VERY common for Swing Door sets to run around with their doors left open
05:41:25  <sim-al2> Wouldn't the doors hit if two trains with doors open passed each other?
05:41:32  <Flygon_> ...this did, incidentally, result in door removals caused by the doors hidding a tunnel wall
05:41:38  <Flygon_> Nah, the loading gauge wasn't that tight
05:41:44  <sim-al2> I don't know how generous the metropolitan loading gauge is
05:41:57  <Flygon_> Keep in mind, when they converted a fair few of the Swing Door sets, some were 40 years old
05:42:01  <sim-al2> lol losing doors is still kinda bad
05:42:11  <sim-al2> Might make a big mess
05:42:15  <Flygon_> They had 40 years to think about if they really REALLY wanted to convert them all to sliding doors :D
05:42:29  <Flygon_> Well, it certainly made the EMUs/Steam Hauled units look like they had gaps in the teeth
05:42:34  <Flygon_> OH&S simply didn't exist
05:42:57  <Flygon_> But, yeah
05:43:18  <Flygon_> Keep in mind, we were like, the Southern Hemisphere's busiest railway from the 1860s through to... 1960sish (?)
05:43:25  *** Flygon has quit IRC
05:43:42  <Flygon_> VR clearly saw the benefit in having more doors than a rich person's house
05:43:44  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
05:43:49  <sim-al2> lol
05:44:21  <Flygon> Though, the EMUs they got in the 1950s had only three (quite wide) doors, so presumably some revised math came in around then
05:44:24  <sim-al2> Seems to be quite similar to UK practice, where suburban EMUs had a similar deisgn going
05:44:28  <Flygon> Keep in mind, more doors = Less pax capacity
05:44:36  <Flygon> Yeah, well, we were a British colony :P
05:45:06  <Flygon> Our technological evolution was basically "Clone British stock, then see what cool shit the Germans and Americans are doing and clone that too"
05:45:46  <sim-al2> I suppose it's a viable design for high level platforms, probably explains why the UK stuck with it long after the Europeans moved to more familar designs
05:46:52  <sim-al2> Hell I think BR still had some compartment-type EMUs running in the mid 80's
05:47:01  <Flygon> Yeah. We went with high-level platforms since the 1850s
05:47:08  <Flygon> Or - As soon as we laid the first track, really.
05:47:45  <Flygon> But, yeah
05:48:25  <Flygon> Eventually, we evolved into this sort of design (iirc, a clone of a British or Canadian design)
05:49:18  <Flygon> "Near South Yarra. It was arranged for the special to parallel the Harris suburban train as far as Caulfield so that fans could photograph and film the special on the way. I stayed on the special and photographed the Harris. Considering that there are preserved Swing-door trains and no preserved Harris trains, it was fortunate."
05:51:17  <Flygon> But, yeah. 3 (wide) doors on Harrises, but better pax capacity. It was the design Melbourne used ever since (Including on X'traps... I still wish 2CC set had a toggle for X'traps to be both Chilean and Australian :B), except for the Siemens.
05:51:39  <Flygon> But the Siemens was enough of a shitstorm for them to be blacklisted from Government-related Railway projects >_>
05:52:11  <Flygon> But, yeah, sim-al2 -
05:52:28  *** user_8475 has joined #openttd
05:52:29  <Flygon> There was enough space between the tracks that the doors, swinging out, could never really hit another train
05:52:40  <user_8475> allah is doing
05:52:44  <sim-al2> Oh I see
05:52:47  <user_8475> sun is not doing allah is doing
05:52:54  <user_8475> moon is not doing allah is doing
05:52:56  <sim-al2> ?
05:53:00  <Flygon> Oh, for fucks sake. Not another bot.
05:53:02  <user_8475> stars are not doing allah is doing
05:53:10  <user_8475> planets are not doing allah is doing
05:53:12  <Flygon> Paging planetmaker Rubidium Terkhen orudge
05:53:13  <sim-al2> Does this happen a lot?
05:53:18  <user_8475> galaxies are not doing allah is doing
05:53:27  <user_8475> oceans are not doing allah is doing
05:53:30  <Flygon> And peter1138, derp
05:53:34  <user_8475> mountains are not doing allah is doing
05:53:35  <Flygon> Any OPs, anyway :U
05:53:41  <user_8475> trees are not doing allah is doing
05:53:49  <user_8475> mom is not doing allah is doing
05:53:55  <user_8475> dad is not doing allah is doing
05:53:55  <Flygon> sim-al2: Enough so that it's become kinda blase
05:54:02  <user_8475> boss is not doing allah is doing
05:54:09  <user_8475> job is not doing allah is doing
05:54:13  <sim-al2> Hmm that picture makes the swing-door trains look pretty narrow actually
05:54:15  <user_8475> dollar is not doing allah is doing
05:54:21  <user_8475> degree is not doing allah is doing
05:54:25  <sim-al2> Also my boss is totally doing
05:54:31  <user_8475> medicine is not doing allah is doing
05:54:38  <Flygon> sim-al2: Yeah. VR were quite conservative when they tried.
05:54:40  <user_8475> customers are not doing allah is doing
05:54:53  <user_8475> you can not get a job without the permission of allah
05:55:14  <Flygon> This same sort of thing results in things like "Heavy Harry" managing to look gigantically imposing, while being not too much bigger than the biggest of British locomotives.
05:55:17  <user_8475> you can not get married without the permission of allah
05:55:33  <sim-al2> Ok mr bot is getting annoying now
05:55:40  <user_8475> nobody can get angry at you without the permission of allah
05:55:44  <Flygon> (Harry's tiny compared to some American locos. But 4.5k horsepower still isn't much to scoff at. They packed a lot of shit into a relatively tight loading gauge)
05:56:03  *** user_8475 has quit IRC
05:56:11  <Flygon> (Was also VR's first loco to use three cylinders... VR really really wanted to keep maintainence costs down on any loco)
05:56:17  <Flygon> Well, that was anti-climactic
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05:56:24  <Flygon> Oh.
05:56:26  <user_8475> light is not doing allah is doing
05:56:29  <sim-al2> Oh god it's back
05:56:32  <user_8475> fan is not doing allah is doing
05:56:41  <user_8475> businessess are not doing allah is doing
05:56:48  <user_8475> america is not doing allah is doing
05:56:52  <Flygon> I mean, I'd spam a lot of weird furry porn into it's inbox with /query, but that's probably against some sort of OFTC policy
05:56:59  <user_8475> fire can not burn without the permission of allah
05:57:05  <sim-al2> Also this is some really terrible philosphical interpretation
05:57:17  <Flygon> IS DorpsGek on?
05:57:27  <Flygon> I'm not sure anyone mods are actually on
05:57:38  <user_8475> knife can not cut without the permission of allah
05:57:46  <sim-al2> I have a suspicion that nobody actually checks the bot's PMs anyway
05:57:57  <Flygon> And I have no idea if we're allowed to drag network opers into this, given this's ambiguously either a bot, or a teenager :U
05:58:12  <Flygon> Yeah, but the idea is to DDoS the bot into disconnecting with weird porn :U
05:58:23  <Flygon> Like, weird, not disgusting.
05:58:32  <sim-al2> Well I think that the bot can safely be considered spam
05:58:46  <Flygon> True, but it's still channel spam.
05:58:58  <Flygon> Urgh, I don't know enough about OFTC's internal beaurocracy.
05:59:18  <user_8475> rulers are not doing allah is doing
05:59:22  <Flygon> Like, this other network I'm on, the rules are EXPLICITLY clear that opers don't interfere with individual channel's affairs
05:59:25  <user_8475> governments are not doing allah is doing
05:59:43  <Flygon> But there is provisions to handle spambots, or in this case, a guy that's clearly reading the chatroom text :U
06:00:22  <user_8475> sleep is not doing allah is doing
06:00:26  <Flygon> Huh, they look quite weird in green
06:00:28  <user_8475> hunger is not doing allah is doing
06:00:32  <Flygon> (They're traditonally Blue-Yellow)
06:00:39  <sim-al2> Speaking of sleep I need to do that soon
06:00:59  <sim-al2> tbh I think the green and gold looks nice
06:01:04  <Flygon> Oh jeeze, I just nearly crashed my client using /list
06:01:09  <Flygon> I forgot how big OFTC is
06:01:20  <Flygon> sim-al2: Yeah, but it's still an odd colour if you're use to Royal Blue :D
06:01:32  <user_8475> food does not take away the hunger allah takes takes away the hunger
06:01:42  <Flygon> 788M - Flinders St - 25-Feb-1987.jpg In colour
06:01:50  <Flygon> You'll need to copypasta that URL
06:02:22  <user_8475> water does not take away the thirst allah takes away the thirst
06:02:31  <user_8475> seeing is not doing allah is doing
06:02:38  <user_8475> hearing is not doing allah is doing
06:02:44  <user_8475> seasons are not doing allah is doing
06:02:50  <user_8475> weather is not doing allah is doing
06:02:58  <user_8475> humans are not doing allah is doing
06:02:59  <Flygon> Dafuk, he's on about Weather now?
06:03:06  <user_8475> animals are not doing allah is doing
06:03:14  <Flygon> Everyone knows the Weather's caused by British conversation.
06:03:47  <user_8475> the best amongst you is he who learns the quran and teaches it
06:04:11  <Flygon> sim-al2: There's also the Yellow variants, but they're only used for Greasers (historically). Quite gnarly looking.
06:04:20  <Flygon> It looks like a log of cheese
06:04:25  <sim-al2> lol
06:04:41  <sim-al2> Looks like some kind of maintainence paint scheme
06:04:48  <Flygon> Exactly :D
06:04:55  <Flygon> It was used to grease the rails
06:05:06  <user_8475> one letter read from book of allah amounts to one good deed and allah multiplies one good deed ten times
06:05:18  <sim-al2> Kinda funny that almost every railway uses a similar shade of yellow for MoW stuff
06:05:43  <user_8475> hearts get rusted as does iron with water to remove rust from heart recitation of quran and rememberance of death
06:05:45  <sim-al2> Well I guess modern equipment isn't necessairly so, but still
06:05:52  <Flygon> Modern equipment here is...
06:05:54  <user_8475> heart is likened to a mirror
06:06:11  <user_8475> when a person commits one sin a black dot sustains the heart
06:06:43  <sim-al2> I've seen the small self-propelled stuff that use they during heavy maintainence in orange paint a lot
06:07:05  <sim-al2> But yeah a lot of track machinery is yellow
06:07:07  <Flygon> This is our newest maintainence train. The locos and EMU unit are 60 years old.
06:07:08  <user_8475> to accept islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except allah and muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
06:07:20  <Flygon> The EMU is a Harris unit, seriously.
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06:07:34  <sim-al2> Inspection unit I assume?
06:07:35  <Flygon> It was converted to non-self propelled running
06:07:45  <Flygon> Then re-converted to electric running between locos
06:07:50  <Flygon> sim-al2: Yeah.
06:08:26  <Flygon> A unit that wasn't made from a box of scraps
06:08:33  <Flygon> Not that it doesn't look it :P
06:08:42  <sim-al2> Yeah I figured that with the dome on the roof and decidely non-standard pantographs, but you never know
06:08:53  <sim-al2> wow that's rather interesting
06:09:11  <Flygon> Well, Harris Pantos haven't been made in 60 years. Gotta give-em a break for improvising. :P
06:09:16  <user_8475> read book
06:09:17  *** user_8475 has quit IRC
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06:09:33  <user_8475> read book
06:09:50  <sim-al2> Yes random bot I'm going to click on your sketchy links
06:10:07  <Flygon> Finding an oper
06:10:09  <user_8475> need spiritual teacher visit
06:10:23  <user_8475> allah created the sky without any pillars
06:11:25  <sim-al2> We do have some converted locomotives like that:
06:11:29  <user_8475> allah makes the sun rise from the east and allah makes the sun set in the west
06:11:51  <sim-al2> I assume the new cab and (partial) body rework is for crew comfort
06:12:06  <Flygon> And the OFTC website is cryptic as to who to PM
06:12:09  <sim-al2> You can see the orginal portion at the top and rear
06:12:18  <Flygon> Oh, wow
06:12:24  <Flygon> Yeah, I can see what you mean :D
06:12:40  <user_8475> allah makes the day into the night and allah makes the night into the day
06:13:07  *** kode54 has joined #openttd
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06:13:40  <Flygon> Oh, hey, kode54
06:13:46  <kode54> hello
06:13:50  <kode54> I was already on this network anyway
06:14:02  <kode54> figured I'd help report the mess, but it looks like the idiot has gone
06:14:13  <Flygon> Noo, he's still here
06:14:16  <Flygon> user_8475
06:14:19  <kode54> oh
06:14:32  <Flygon> But he's gone mysteriously silent. Maybe your aura shut him up. :U
06:14:54  <Flygon> Until he resumes again.
06:15:13  <Flygon> sim-al2: They look kinda like Hippos
06:15:19  <sim-al2> Hmmm I see that in some photos the Harris units had only a driver-side window while some others have windows on both sides
06:15:31  <sim-al2> lol they do
06:15:44  <Flygon> Yeah, iirc, the later ones got two Windows due to drivers kinda sorta wanting them.
06:15:56  <kode54> well
06:16:00  <kode54> the IP is ramnode
06:16:04  <kode54> the ident is another valid IP
06:16:25  <Flygon> Every time he's /quit and rejoined, it's been the same hostmask.
06:16:39  <kode54> is the ident
06:16:51  <Flygon> I'm beginning to suspect the bot just ran out of stuff to spam
06:17:13  <kode54> another vps account
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06:17:26  <kode54> either it's the originator, or this guy is bouncing multiple times
06:18:33  <sim-al2> Dropped a web link
06:18:53  <kode54> good old south africa
06:19:08  <kode54> last I recall, they were linking to Quran reference sites
06:19:11  <sim-al2> That only begs further questions
06:19:14  <sim-al2> Yeah they are
06:19:30  <sim-al2> I think, not really planning to click on them without precautions
06:20:11  <sim-al2> Flygon there's also a non-powered (I think) variant also rebuilt from a locomotive:
06:20:29  <sim-al2> Although it could defintely have a genset in there
06:20:41  <Flygon> I wonder why they'd have it non-powered
06:20:46  <Flygon> Sensitivity of the equipment?
06:21:24  <sim-al2> Oh whoops it is powered
06:22:21  <Flygon> btw, it would seem Red Rattlers in the 2CC-set have near-Metro-like speeds in unloading/reloading
06:22:43  <Flygon> It seems the set designers took into account the amount of doorage
06:23:01  *** user_8475 has quit IRC
06:23:02  <sim-al2> Although 2cc also has the RENFE high-speed trains with metro-like loading speed, so maybe take it with a grain of salt
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06:23:36  <Flygon> The ones that look like a duck?
06:23:58  <sim-al2> Ok yeah I think those units are all actually locomotives, even the ones with completely new bodies:
06:24:01  <Flygon> Though, the RENFE HST may've been a bug
06:24:14  <sim-al2> Err not the duck ones, the regional 250 km/h ones
06:24:15  <Flygon> Hmm
06:24:25  <Flygon> Wait, got a unit type ID for me?
06:24:30  *** Alberth has joined #openttd
06:24:30  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
06:24:31  <sim-al2> I can't remember the class name right now, but it loads incredibly quickly
06:24:34  <Flygon> Also, I wonder if they're using that-
06:24:36  <Flygon> Alberth
06:24:39  <Flygon> Thank god you're here
06:24:44  <Alberth> oh dear
06:24:47  <kode54> okay
06:24:49  <kode54> I see now
06:24:54  <kode54> that ip is someone's kiwiirc server
06:25:00  <kode54> and the ident is the ip address they're connected from
06:25:00  <Flygon> While user_8475's quiet as fuck atm, he's actually an Allah-bot
06:25:07  <Flygon> HE would not shut up for 45 minutes
06:25:13  <Flygon> I couldn't get a hold of any oper's
06:25:18  <kode54> feel free to report them both to their respective ISPs
06:25:26  <Flygon> And kode54's been biopsying the shit out of this
06:25:28  <kode54> or owners
06:25:42  <kode54> I wouldn't call it much effort
06:25:47  <kode54> just whois on two ip addresses
06:25:53  <Flygon> I know you can't quite trust me until he restarts his babbling, but I'm gonna have to ask for a good /kickban when he does. @_@
06:25:57  <sim-al2> Flygon RENFE 120
06:26:00  <kode54> and recognizing that 8 digit hex ident as an ip address
06:26:21  <sim-al2> Even though the real thing was one narrow-ish door per car
06:26:33  <kode54> and now that recent quit, since it managed to stay connected long enough to advertise its default quit message
06:26:46  <Alberth> I think you have very wrong ideas about me
06:27:01  <Flygon> Oh, yeah, that's definitely not suppose to load fadt
06:27:03  <Flygon> Phone
06:29:29  *** user_8475 has quit IRC
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06:33:04  <Flygon> back
06:33:13  <Flygon> But yeah
06:33:16  *** user_8475 has quit IRC
06:33:20  <Flygon> That RENFE is definitely not suppose to load that fast
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06:33:32  <Flygon> Alberth: You're the first ANYONE with the power to do something to be able to help x.x
06:33:38  <Flygon> You're actually AWAKE
06:34:28  <Alberth> ha, not really :p
06:34:32  <Flygon> ???
06:35:09  <Flygon> Aren't ya staff?
06:37:59  <user_8475> allah gives life and allah gives death
06:38:09  <Flygon> Annnd there he fucking goes
06:38:14  <user_8475> all creation are useless,worthless,hopeless
06:38:18  <user_8475> can not do
06:38:20  <Flygon> Alberth: But... you got the OP powers @_@
06:38:24  <user_8475> can not benefit
06:38:28  <user_8475> can not harm
06:38:41  <user_8475> allah is the doer of each and everything
06:38:59  <user_8475> when allah wants us to stand we stand
06:39:10  <user_8475> when allah wants us to sit we sit
06:39:20  <kode54> Alberth: ^
06:39:22  <Alberth> yeah, but so little clue what to type :(
06:39:38  *** user_8475 has quit IRC
06:39:38  <kode54> okay, I don't know what to think about that
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06:39:55  <user_8475> i am not doing allah is doing
06:40:02  <user_8475> you are not doing allah is doing
06:40:10  <user_8475> atom bomb is not doing allah is doing
06:40:11  <Flygon> Alberth: We'll record the user data
06:40:11  <kode54> you can /mode #openttd +b *!6dc98930@
06:40:18  <user_8475> rice is not doing allah is doing
06:40:25  <Flygon> And, yeah
06:40:30  <Flygon> Do what kode54 typed @_@
06:40:31  <kode54> and /kick #openttd user_8475 bye
06:40:37  <user_8475> all creation get together can not create one grain of rice
06:40:40  *** Alberth sets mode: +b *!6dc98930@
06:40:58  <kode54> that'll shut him up
06:41:18  <kode54> why are you an op if you don't know common IRC management commands?
06:41:27  <Flygon> Community leader
06:41:28  *** user_8475 was kicked by Alberth (bye)
06:41:34  <kode54> oh
06:41:52  <sim-al2> wow that bot was really getting around
06:41:53  <Alberth> thanks
06:42:07  <Flygon> Thank you, a tonne, kode54 >_<
06:42:09  <kode54> that will keep that particular user out
06:42:16  <kode54> no telling if that IP will do other idents
06:42:25  <kode54> in case this idiot has other shells they can connect through
06:42:32  <kode54> Flygon: no proble
06:42:33  <kode54> m
06:42:40  <sim-al2> In a bunch of debian channels, mingw channels, and https-everywhere
06:42:57  <kode54> I'll see about reporting that combination of ips to their owners
06:43:23  <kode54> kiwiirc owner will probably want to ban whoever that is, if they care about their server
06:44:25  <Alberth> thanks
06:45:33  <kode54> you're welcome
06:46:47  <Flygon> We do need to work on getting additional staff. Allahbots keep popping up around this time.
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06:50:33  <user_9484> all humans get together can not stop rain
06:50:48  <user_9484> all humans get together can not make anybody hungry
06:50:56  <Flygon> Paging kode54, Alberth
06:51:05  <user_9484> all humans get together can not move sun one second up or down
06:51:14  <user_9484> we can not count the hair on our head
06:51:17  <Flygon> This may be a good time to teach Alberth just HOW the specific ban method was come up with.
06:51:21  <user_9484> we can not count the rain drops
06:51:33  <user_9484> we can not count the particles of sand
06:51:41  <user_9484> medicine has no power to cure
06:51:43  <Flygon> btw, this same user's in a fucktonne of channels already
06:51:50  <Flygon> We should probably try and get an OPER in
06:51:55  <Flygon> aka. Network Admin
06:51:55  <user_9484> two people take same medicine one passes away and one does not
06:52:02  <user_9484> degree has no power to give job
06:52:13  <user_9484> many people have degrees but do not have jobs
06:52:21  <user_9484> sustenance does not depend on effort
06:52:24  <Alberth> yep, it won't do much good
06:52:37  <Flygon> I mean, it'll shut it up in #openttd, at the very least
06:52:43  <user_9484> one person is working very much but is earning very less
06:52:52  <Alberth> a /ignore works too :p
06:52:56  <user_9484> other person is working very less but is earning very much
06:53:22  <Flygon> They said that about School bullies, and it never got to the root cause of the problem :U
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07:12:20  <kode54> wow
07:12:21  <kode54> another one
07:12:49  <kode54> same kiwi server, different remote ip
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07:16:50  <kode54> another user
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07:22:51  <Alberth> maybe irc is just a bad idea :p
07:23:37  <Elec_A> Hello, May I ask someone please tell me, which file contains the main function of openttd? I am search the files but I cannot find it.
07:23:47  <Elec_A> searching*
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07:27:07  <Elec_A> depend.cpp, endian_check.cpp and G5_detector.cpp contain "int main" but none of them are the main function of the program.
07:28:36  <Elec_A> I think I found it. it is in openttd.cpp
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07:35:37  <andythenorth> o/
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07:44:09  <Alberth> o/
07:45:25  <Alberth> Elec_A:  there is src/os/*  the main entry point for each type of OS, which then points to openttd.cpp
07:46:12  <Alberth> not sure how useful that is though, it will take ages of searching before finding the low level stuff, that way
07:47:28  <andythenorth> who ever though this was a good idea (that graph is crazy) :)
07:47:57  <Elec_A> Alberth: Thank you. I'm just interested in studying the code. I'm not going to put my whole time on it. I thought maybe it would be a good programming exercise.
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07:48:23  <Alberth> andythenorth: it's useful for BB :)
07:49:08  <andythenorth> if the graph had been available when I was designing Extreme, it would have come out very differently :)
07:49:19  <Alberth> Elec_A: it may be more useful to study a particular area, openttd.cpp does a lot of high level stuff, calling other high level stuff, it's very easy to get completely lost there
07:49:24  <andythenorth> ‘designing’ is th wrong word even :P
07:49:40  <Alberth> "throwing together" works :p
07:50:29  <Alberth> I think it was a good strategy though, you could concentrate on making sprites,and getting the code generation up
07:51:30  <Elec_A> Alberth: So how can you add stuff to this game when you don't have overall understanding of the code? you know what I mean? Imagine you are going to add another window to the game, don't you need to write the code of that window in a way that it works optimally with other areas?
07:52:07  <andythenorth> optimally is the wrong quality measure there
07:52:32  <Alberth> Elec_A: I know, working in openttd code since 2007, haven't studied 1/2 of it yet :p
07:52:45  <andythenorth> openttd is quite similar to working on a big web app
07:53:03  <andythenorth> lots of it is quite boxed off, independent, and there’s no sense of a single purpose or vision
07:53:13  <Elec_A> Alberth: wow, So don't you think you have reduced the efficiency of the code? :)
07:53:14  <andythenorth> other aspects tangle their way through everything
07:53:37  <andythenorth> the primary efficiency goal is probably avoiding network desyncs
07:53:39  <Elec_A> andythenorth: oh got it.
07:53:51  <andythenorth> and then making it easy to delete / change / code review
07:53:57  * andythenorth is guessing
07:54:03  <andythenorth> my included patches count is about 2
07:54:07  <andythenorth> and one of those is sprites
07:54:15  <Alberth> well, you typicially look at some other windows to get some ideas how it looks. Then you study the area whatever you want to display or control from the window, then start experimenting
07:54:57  <Alberth> Elec_A: at 300,000+ lines of code, nobody knows every detail
07:55:15  <Elec_A> andythenorth: you know when I write a code and when I want to add some new features, I see that If I redo a major part of the code, it would run faster.
07:55:18  <Alberth> so as andy says, you work in sub-areas
07:55:22  <andythenorth> in some places, I suspect this is the best mental model for it :P
07:55:39  <andythenorth> (scroll to picture)
07:56:09  <Elec_A> Alberth: I see. what a great reference is that! Thank you !
07:56:15  <Elec_A> I mean andythenorth :)
07:56:22  <Elec_A> andythenorth: Thats a great reference.
07:57:10  <andythenorth> I don’t think it’s a fair representation of a lot of the code :)
07:57:27  <Alberth> and yeah, we might have a sub-optimal piece of code, in fact, I am quite sure of that.  Rewriting it is no option though
07:58:20  <Alberth> at best, you find these things, and locally improve
07:58:20  <Elec_A> Alberth: Oh, thank you, so we cannot say that openttd is 100% optimal
07:58:35  <Elec_A> It is interesting.
07:58:39  <Alberth> I don't think you can say that either for any of your programs
07:59:08  <Alberth> it would mean you have verified the solution against all other possible solutions, and found no better one
07:59:34  <Alberth> since "all other possible solutions" is infinitely large, that would take a while
08:00:12  <andythenorth> openttd is ‘optimal’ in that it is one of the most successful open source games
08:00:12  <Alberth> oh, did I mention the program runs at a multitude of CPUs and operating systems?
08:01:05  <Alberth> and motherboards, disk speeds, memory speeds, etc etc
08:01:26  <Elec_A> Alberth: Actually, when I'm talking about being optimal, What comes into my mind is some optimizations in loops and memory consumption. So instead of going through a large loop, using a parralel loop is optimization in my point of view, or reducing the number of generated classes to avoid memory leakages is what I meant.
08:02:15  <Alberth> oh, not doing obviously stupid stuff :)
08:02:21  <Alberth> yep, we do that :)
08:02:30  <Alberth> for as far as possible
08:02:31  <Elec_A> andythenorth: I agree with that. I love this opensource game :)
08:03:16  <Elec_A> Alberth: Oh, Ok. very motivating to learn what's going on in behind the scenes :) (I mean source code)
08:03:47  <Alberth> but clarity in code comes first, compilers tend to be fairly smart in doing smaller optimizations
08:04:21  <Alberth> Elec_A: partly yeah, it also spoils the game, as you know what the code does exactly, rather than guessing its intelligence :p
08:05:20  <Alberth> contributors come and leave, and the next person must be able to pick up and make the next step, at all times
08:05:47  <Elec_A> Alberth: from a discussion, I remember that, A friend told me try to write your code in Python and just convert those part that needs optimization to C++. Do you agree with that? Why openttd is not in Python ?
08:06:35  <Elec_A> Python is much more readable :
08:06:37  <Elec_A> :)
08:07:09  <Alberth> ever tried writing and maintaining a Python program for several years with say 30,000 lines?
08:07:16  <andythenorth> python would likely be much slower, is one reason
08:07:21  <andythenorth> python is slow
08:07:40  * andythenorth cannot back that with objective facts
08:07:51  <Elec_A> Alberth: Nope. Your questioning tone explains everything :)
08:08:04  <Elec_A> andythenorth: Ok. got it.
08:08:20  <Alberth> it has no compile-time checking of types, so it may take years before some edge case happens, and it blows up due to a undefined variable or so
08:08:27  <andythenorth> I have no benchmarks, but I run a company that almost exclusively writes python web apps
08:09:00  <andythenorth> I don’t think python is where you’d start for cross-platform performance of a mid-sized game with multiplayer, on a very wide range of hardware
08:09:03  <Alberth> also, origin of openttd is from assembly language, at a time that Python barely existed
08:09:36  <Elec_A> I'm hearing mind blowing stuff, thank you guys.
08:10:37  <Alberth> but for smaller size programs and limited number of operating systems, Python approach does make sense
08:11:06  <Alberth> but eg Windows is already a major challenge, no Python installed by default, no C/C++ compiler
08:11:21  <Elec_A> that's right.
08:11:23  <Alberth> just getting your optimized program to run is a major hassle
08:12:00  <andythenorth> dunno, these might be cherry-picked benchmarks, it’s easy to make a case with dubious numbers, but
08:13:21  <Alberth> running low level computations in python is a bad idea
08:14:08  <Alberth> ie "mandelbrot" is not a friendly Python program :)
08:14:24  <Elec_A> andythenorth: I've seen this benchmark before, the thing is that when they say Python it is a pure Python code. The point I was making was to profile a python code and convert the most time consuming part to C++. but according to what you both said before it does not really worth it.
08:14:26  <Alberth> Python is good at glueing libraries together
08:14:58  <Elec_A> Alberth: I like that glueing stuff. I agree.
08:15:32  <Alberth> Elec_A: it is, if you move the main mandelbrot function to C, and call it from Python, you get near the C speed
08:15:47  <Alberth> that's what Python is designed for
08:16:02  <Elec_A> right.
08:16:48  <Alberth> ie, move the 10% code that does 90% of the computation time to C, and write the other 90% of the code in nice Python
08:17:59  <Alberth> although I typically don't care for speed, as long as it's < 8 hours
08:18:28  <Elec_A> Alberth: but the fact that python does not really compile the code to find the compile-time errors is a major drawback.
08:18:36  <Alberth> it's hard to make speed improvements such that dev-time + waiting-time  is optimized
08:19:12  <Elec_A> That completely makes sense based on what I learned here.
08:19:47  <Alberth> Elec_A: yep, if you want to see that yourself, come to the corsix-th project, 40,000 lines lua, no documentation, no compile time checking, loads of bugs with deep causes :p
08:20:16  <Elec_A> Alberth: Haha, :) I really had a great time discussing with you. I need to go, its late at night here :) its almost 3:30am :)
08:20:22  <Alberth> ok, bye
08:20:26  <Elec_A> bye :)
08:20:40  <Elec_A> and Thank you again.
08:20:44  <Alberth> yw
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09:19:54  <Wolf01> o/
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09:36:08  <Alberth> o/
09:46:57  <__ln__>   /
09:46:58  <__ln__> o/
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09:56:08  <Alberth> _/
10:03:34  <Wolf01> \
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10:12:21  <Wolf01> o/
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10:13:32  <Wolf01> Meh, I scared the cat
10:15:11  <Alberth> he'll be back :)
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10:15:42  <Wolf01> Yup :)
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10:44:56  <andythenorth> such FIRS research
10:45:02  <andythenorth> Wolf01 o/ also
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10:45:42  <Wolf01> We put on another lego black market in the restaurant's parking lot yesterday evening :P
10:45:57  <Wolf01> I finally have the whole mixel series
10:46:01  <andythenorth> ha
10:46:18  <andythenorth> those ball joints always seem like they should be useful
10:46:21  <andythenorth> but never are somehow :)
10:47:34  <Wolf01> I make mechs, they are useful :P But mixels stay mixels
10:47:53  <andythenorth> fair
10:48:19  <andythenorth> so steel making needs limestone (into the blast furnace) and lime (quicklime / calcinated dolomite)
10:48:36  <andythenorth> is lime bulk, liquid, covered?  or what?
10:48:55  <andythenorth> ‘lime’ in english is pretty generic, it covers a wide range of industrial products derived from limestone
10:49:01  <andythenorth> google is not my friend today
10:49:09  <Alberth> 'what' seems a nice option
10:49:20  <Wolf01> Usually bulk, could be covered too, at least of what I have seen on tv
10:50:33  <andythenorth>
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10:50:45  <andythenorth> apparently ^
10:51:05  <andythenorth> I actually have a half-finished build of that type of wagon, from 20 years ago :P
10:51:10  <Alberth> usually a bit larger, but yep :)
10:51:10  <andythenorth> scratchbuild
10:51:33  <Alberth> scratchhalfbuild, thus
10:51:38  <andythenorth>
10:53:33  <andythenorth> can’t find any evidence of it being transported as liquid
10:53:33  <Alberth> "tanker" is not always a ship, apparently :)
10:53:36  <andythenorth> no :)
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11:27:27  <andythenorth> ‘lime’ or ‘quicklime'
11:37:22  <Alberth> unless you have more than 1 lime kind, prefixes don't add much, do they?
11:37:54  <Alberth> and quick lime immediately raises the question of what slow lime would be :p
11:42:42  <andythenorth> ‘lime’ in some places is just crushed stone, applied to farm fields
11:43:03  <andythenorth> ‘quicklime’ has been through a lime kiln, and is a caustic chemical
11:43:09  <andythenorth> but both are called ‘lime’ in common use :P
11:49:58  <Alberth> as long as no confusion is possible :)
11:52:30  <andythenorth> ach LIME cargo label is taken for limestone
11:52:59  <Alberth> QLME or QLIM   :)
11:54:35  <andythenorth> ta
11:56:22  <Rubidium> andythenorth: 'CaO '
11:56:40  <andythenorth> :D
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12:56:35  <michi_cc> Alberth: Seen the screenshot directly above the linked heading at ?
13:00:47  <Alberth> ha, we're famous :D
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13:00:58  <Alberth> LordAro:  ^
13:01:18  * LordAro awakens from slumber
13:01:21  <LordAro> hrm?
13:02:34  <LordAro> :D
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13:34:22  <Wolf01> Quak
13:35:07  <Alberth> o/
13:37:12  <frosch123> moin
13:39:25  * andythenorth adds a coke oven
13:39:29  <andythenorth> dunno about that though
13:39:45  <andythenorth> steel chain is getting bonkers long, to get any final cargo out
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13:41:56  <Alberth> keeping players busy :)
13:42:08  <Alberth> "extreme steel"  :p
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14:17:25  <andythenorth>
14:17:36  <andythenorth> needs some basics, like a source of food :)
14:18:22  <frosch123> i like the copper chain
14:20:56  <andythenorth> nice isn’t it
14:21:08  <andythenorth> I am not sure where to go with this next
14:21:24  <andythenorth> it’s quite easy to split apart the steel production even further and more detailed
14:21:28  <frosch123> total number of industries seems ok
14:21:33  <andythenorth> or add more vectors to the final product
14:21:34  <frosch123> you just need to clean up the cargos
14:21:39  <andythenorth> e.g. electrical components etc
14:21:43  <frosch123> remove the cargos with no source or destination
14:21:48  <frosch123> and add the missnig cargos
14:21:53  <andythenorth> ha yes
14:21:54  <andythenorth> that
14:21:59  <andythenorth> thanks :P
14:22:01  <frosch123> like, make the port produce engsup instead of copper
14:23:00  <frosch123> maybe also replace glass with aluminium
14:23:13  <frosch123> that appears more steelish to me
14:24:49  <frosch123> you could also try to make it focus on vehicles
14:24:57  <frosch123> and add rubber imports
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14:25:33  <frosch123> hmm, na, better idea: rename vehicles to rail vehicles :p
14:25:50  <frosch123> cars are stupid, better make a train production chain
14:26:43  <frosch123> chemicals + copper + plastics -> electronics ?
14:27:12  <frosch123> (oh, there is already rubber)
14:27:19  <andythenorth> there is a tyre plant
14:27:38  <frosch123> maybe remove liquids terminal/oil/rubber? not related to trains
14:27:40  <andythenorth> I was getting a bit carried away with charcoal and iron and stuff at the input end
14:27:51  <andythenorth> I think vehicles are more interesting end maybe
14:27:58  <frosch123> i think the iron/charcoal part is fine
14:28:00  <andythenorth> or split out chemicals, but that’s all tankers
14:28:01  <Wolf01> copper->copper plates->coils + iron->iron plates -> electronics
14:28:13  <frosch123> Wolf01: no :p
14:28:28  <andythenorth> electronics can go in a japan/china economy
14:28:37  <Wolf01> electronics + plastic -> better electronics
14:28:44  <andythenorth> I have about 4 more economies in mind, then it’s ‘done'
14:29:08  <frosch123> ok, so you want to build old cars without electronics :)
14:29:19  <Wolf01> Do a factorio economy
14:29:27  <andythenorth> I thought about basic electrical machines factory
14:29:32  <andythenorth> copper + such
14:29:35  <andythenorth> or not
14:30:18  <andythenorth> I could also split out vehicles
14:30:30  <andythenorth> bodies + drivetrain + parts = vehicles
14:31:14  <andythenorth> the main thing now is to find cargos that look interesting as loads
14:31:15  <andythenorth> :D
14:32:09  <frosch123> the standard steel mill add-ons would be roller mills and pipe mills
14:32:16  <frosch123> but no idea how to continue from there :)
14:32:21  <andythenorth> pipe mill = building materials
14:32:28  <andythenorth> roller = plate -> shipyard, etc
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14:34:15  <Wolf01> Is NRT? I finished to play with lego today, I need to order more parts to continue
14:36:58  * andythenorth could NRT
14:37:22  <andythenorth> give or take children wanting to build great ball chain contraptions
14:38:07  <Wolf01> Give them some of the 2015-16 sets and make one module with each one
14:39:38  <andythenorth> they ‘make’ things by searching youtube and saying ‘make me this’ :P
14:39:44  <andythenorth> and GBC needs a lot of tuning
14:39:58  <Wolf01> <-
14:40:36  <Wolf01> look what you can build with the Claas
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14:48:54  <andythenorth> awesome
14:48:59  <andythenorth> GBC is nuts
14:49:44  <andythenorth> I would never think of these mechanisms
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14:54:20  <andythenorth> is it time for NRT vehicle stuff yet?
14:54:24  <andythenorth> or are we still drawing?
14:54:38  <andythenorth> frosch123: do we need road-depot ground tiles? o_O
14:54:46  <Wolf01> We are still arguing on how NRT should be done
14:55:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: we already have them?
14:55:25  <andythenorth> we do?
14:55:27  <frosch123> though they look like a rail depot :)
14:55:31  * andythenorth hasn’t drawn any 
14:55:33  <andythenorth> oic :)
14:55:54  <frosch123> Wolf01: are we?
14:56:07  <frosch123> i am adding level crossings now
14:56:11  <Wolf01> I think we finally decided for 15 types, but not sure
14:56:20  <frosch123> i think i can also draw tram crossing without road
14:56:25  <frosch123> Wolf01: yes we did
14:56:36  <frosch123> thus m7 6..7 should be freed
14:56:37  <andythenorth> frosch123: you can, I have a patch for that from years ago :)
14:56:51  <frosch123> do you have a screenshot?
14:56:59  * andythenorth looks
14:58:51  <andythenorth>
14:59:19  <Wolf01> Maglev crossing is ugly AF
14:59:19  <andythenorth> I abandoned it because it got a ’meh’ response, didn’t look like it would get included and maglev looks stupid also
14:59:20  <frosch123> yep, looks like i would draw them now
15:00:00  <frosch123> hmm, actually not sure
15:00:07  <frosch123> maybe they would look different
15:00:26  <frosch123> not sure what is underlay/overlay for maglev
15:01:31  <frosch123> anyway, maglev/monorail-tram-crossing does not look more stupid than the maglev/monorail-road-crossing :)
15:03:29  <andythenorth> file it under ‘maglev is ugly’
15:03:31  <andythenorth> in base set
15:03:37  <andythenorth> ban crossings on maglev :P
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15:04:50  <Rubidium> actually the junctions of monorail and maglev are ugly as well
15:05:00  <andythenorth> +1
15:05:08  * andythenorth considers doing a maglev set
15:05:13  <andythenorth> ...nah
15:05:17  <Rubidium> though in theory I could imagine providing different sprites for the junctions based on the path reservation through it
15:05:52  <Rubidium> would even help normal rail switches in zoom-in level maximum
15:06:29  <frosch123> i think newrailtypes already provide that
15:06:39  <Rubidium> i.e. based on the path reservation one tongue is open and the other closed (or
15:06:46  <frosch123> they have custom level crossing graphics, and they can check the reservation stage
15:06:54  <Rubidium> whatever it's called in proper English)
15:07:24  <Rubidium> if that's the case, based on the reservation you could draw a different sprite
15:07:54  <Rubidium> i.e. with reservation draw the maglev, without it draw the tram/road as if the maglev is dropped below the road surface
15:08:41  <andythenorth> that would look better
15:14:44  <Wolf01> This looked really good
15:15:33  <andythenorth> hax :)
15:19:28  <Alberth> Rb: these maglev tracks are a lot better
15:20:13  <Wolf01> Yup, they look really cool
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15:23:46  <andythenorth> bit heavy to my eye
15:23:54  <andythenorth> not clear if they’re steel or concrete, or whatever
15:24:02  <Wolf01> ROADSUBTYPE_END = 14, or better as 0xE?
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15:25:33  <frosch123> 14 is fine :)
15:27:10  <andythenorth> :o
15:27:17  <andythenorth> Steeltown economy does not have alcohol
15:27:21  <andythenorth> that’s not standard
15:27:49  <Alberth> :D
15:28:02  <Wolf01> Mmmh, no, it should be 15 not 14
15:29:08  <Wolf01> I hope it won't confuse with INVALID_ROADSUBTYPE
15:29:13  <Alberth> inclusive or exclusive boundary?  otherwise, you may want to name it *LAST
15:29:15  <Wolf01> Which need to be 0xF
15:29:33  <Wolf01> Exclusive
15:29:50  <Alberth> yeah, I guessed as much from the previous sentence :)
15:29:53  <Wolf01> Is used to initialize arrays
15:29:56  <Alberth> should be fine
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15:33:39  * andythenorth needs food
15:33:53  <andythenorth> farm only?
15:34:40  <Wolf01> andythenorth, how to reintegrate a branch? I think it's better to work directly on road-and-tram-types and just use local branches if needed
15:34:59  <andythenorth> just merge it?
15:35:29  <Wolf01> Ok, then I simply won't use anymore the "wolf" branch
15:36:58  <andythenorth> yeah just merge your stuff into road-and-tram-types
15:37:13  <Wolf01> frosch123, already did that some days ago
15:37:17  <andythenorth> I’d only use a feature branch if we hit a stable point, and start something new, like vehicle routing
15:37:26  <andythenorth> then we have a stable candidate, and unstable feature branch
15:42:19  <frosch123> Wolf01:
15:44:10  <frosch123> <- resp, the trash buttons on that page
15:44:55  <Wolf01> Ok, we could delete some branches then, wolf, dev, gui...
15:45:10  <frosch123> revert-9-master :)
15:45:40  <Wolf01> Good, much clean now :P
15:46:47  <Alberth> :)
15:47:30  <Wolf01> Is it possible to delete a forked repository too?
15:47:47  <andythenorth> probably in github
15:47:59  <andythenorth> you’re the owner so only you can do it probably
15:48:10  <Wolf01> There's a delete in "danger zone"
15:48:11  <andythenorth> it’s hard to keep git branches deleted btw :P
15:48:27  <andythenorth> they tend to come back from the dead
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15:53:47  <Wolf01> Ok, at least now removing the roadstop it restores normal road
15:53:55  <Wolf01> I need to restore the right road type
15:55:24  <andythenorth> \o/
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16:07:03  <andythenorth> tyres, drivetrain components, windscreens, bodies, electrical parts, trim parts
16:07:10  <andythenorth> 6 into 3 don’t go :P
16:09:27  <Alberth> tires + drive train + bodies merge ?
16:10:54  <Alberth> or windscreens + electrical parts -> car doors?
16:10:56  <andythenorth> I can consolidate parts in a warehouse
16:11:04  <andythenorth> is IRL :P
16:11:07  <Alberth> not sure what trim parts are
16:11:33  <andythenorth> seats and stuff
16:11:37  <andythenorth> also plastci
16:11:40  <andythenorth> plastic *
16:11:46  <Alberth> ah, things and stuff :)
16:11:50  <andythenorth> but I don’t have textiles in this economy :)
16:11:53  <andythenorth> so eh
16:12:03  <andythenorth> engine plant -> drivetrain components
16:12:05  <Alberth> it's all fake leather :p
16:12:36  <andythenorth> body plant -> vehicle bodies
16:12:38  <Alberth> you could make an "upgrade" factory to enhance the cars :)
16:12:41  <andythenorth> ha ha
16:12:43  <andythenorth> ‘respray'
16:13:01  <Alberth> better seats, bigger engine, etc
16:13:07  <andythenorth> ‘level up'
16:13:12  <Alberth> :D
16:13:22  <andythenorth> I dunno, the vehicle chain might be getting too detailed :P
16:13:29  <andythenorth> it’s Steeltown not Motown
16:13:43  * andythenorth exploring different options this could have
16:14:03  <andythenorth> I kind of wanted to explore chemicals more
16:14:13  <andythenorth> or slag -> cement
16:14:34  <Alberth> but you have chemicals elsewhere too, iirc
16:14:58  <andythenorth> not in much detail
16:15:09  <andythenorth> the downside, it’s all just tanker trucks / wagons
16:15:17  <andythenorth> tankers -> more tankers
16:15:22  <andythenorth> in different colours
16:15:28  <Alberth> clearly it needs an open tanker
16:16:10  <Alberth> and sprinkling colours, like neon light green, yellow, orange
16:16:45  <andythenorth> fire cycle
16:16:54  <Alberth> all these silly RL ideas :p
16:17:18  <Alberth> nah, that would be the magic potion industry chain
16:17:35  <andythenorth> glow sticks factory
16:17:59  <Alberth> +1
16:18:07  <andythenorth> biab
16:18:09  <Alberth> it only needs a glowing factory :p
16:19:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think you added additional sprites for your crossing back then
16:20:30  <frosch123>
16:20:37  <frosch123>
16:20:52  <frosch123> "with" looks better than "no" for everything but default roadf
16:21:39  <frosch123> maglev is hopeless :)
16:21:54  <frosch123> but newrailtypes should be fine
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16:30:56  <Klanticus> hey guys, is there any way no name an order list?
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16:31:30  <frosch123> no, you can only name vehicles and vehicle groups
16:31:46  <frosch123> usualy people name vehicle groups and put all vehicles with shared orders into a group
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16:32:06  <Klanticus> would you accept a patch to allow that?
16:33:00  <frosch123> where would such a name be shown?
16:33:15  <frosch123> you cannot select order list anywhere, can you?
16:34:43  <Klanticus> I think it could be displayed inside the order list window, and on another window, showing all lists (by their name)
16:35:15  <frosch123> so it adds a another way to group vehicles other than vehicle groups
16:35:18  <Klanticus> ultimately i'd like to be able to display detailed information obout any order list
16:35:36  <frosch123> do you know about vehicle groups
16:35:45  <frosch123> you suggest something that is *very* similar to vehicle groups
16:36:01  <frosch123> there are various patches which create tons of information for vehicle groups
16:36:41  <Klanticus> the main problem with them is that you have to change them every time you add a new vehicle to a route
16:36:59  <Klanticus> if that wasn't the case, they'd be great
16:37:06  <frosch123> without thinking about the implications, i would think you rather want some setting like "automatically put vehicles with shared orders into new vehicle groups" or something
16:37:07  <Sylf> You just can't select the set of orders from a drop-down list currently - you have to find a vehicle with the exact order you want to copy, then clone the vehicle/orders
16:37:23  <Alberth> generalizing vehicle groups could be an alternative path
16:37:25  <frosch123> Klanticus: shared-cloning also copies the group
16:37:40  <Sylf> So, the only thing that's missing is the UI for list of unique orders - that's what it sounds like to me
16:37:45  <Klanticus> frosch123: really? That I didn't knew
16:38:33  <Klanticus> so it looks like a better way is to work on top of vehicle groups
16:38:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: I don’t remember drawing extra sprites, I wouldn’t have known how to add them to the game :)
16:38:59  <andythenorth> I think I did abuse the PBS overlay sprite though
16:39:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: i drew just those in the "with" screenshots
16:39:32  <andythenorth> makes sense
16:39:47  <frosch123> Klanticus: extending vehicle groups would make it less redunant/confusing imho
16:39:56  <Klanticus> but I still think they would be more useable if tied to an order list, somehow
16:40:10  <andythenorth> vehicle groups are more arbitrary than that
16:40:17  <andythenorth> although arguably that’s a weakness
16:40:39  <Klanticus> yeah.. there's no easy way to see how much profit I get from a route
16:41:18  <Klanticus> I could add that statistic to vehicle groups, but then the player would need to keep it always up to date
16:41:20  <Wolf01> andythenorth, enjoy your new roadstops
16:41:29  <frosch123> i would suggest a setting "put vehicles automatically in a new vehicle group, when sharing orders and the vehicles are not yet in a group"
16:41:52  <Wolf01> It still trigger an assert when removing the roadstops if you drag and drop an area without a roadstop inside
16:41:55  <frosch123> Klanticus: there are already patches for vehicle group statistics
16:42:00  <Wolf01> I''m not sure on what to do there
16:42:27  <frosch123> Wolf01: i just fixed RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile wrt that
16:42:33  * andythenorth pulls
16:42:37  <Klanticus> frosch123: looks like a good idea. Are those patches on flyspray?
16:42:41  <Wolf01> Uhm, I fixed it too
16:42:47  <frosch123> all problems arise from using GetRoadBits instead of GetRoadTypes in various places
16:43:44  <Wolf01> But GetRoadTypes should be deprecated, or changed to extract them from roadbits+subtypes
16:43:45  <frosch123> Klanticus: <- that is also part of jgr pack (assuming jgr would use the newest incarnation of patches like that)
16:45:54  <Klanticus> frosch123: thanks! As a matter of curiosity, any reason for not merging it in trunk?
16:46:48  <andythenorth> Wolf01: yay stops :)
16:47:00  <frosch123> personally i don't care about money and spreadsheets in ottd. no idea about other people's opinion
16:48:32  <frosch123> Wolf01: do not use roadbits, only subtypes
16:48:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: if it was a train factory…train cargo?
16:48:48  <frosch123> roadbits only exist for 1 of 5 tiletypes with road or something
16:52:23  <Wolf01> if (GetAnyRoadBits(t, ROADTYPE_TRAM) != ROAD_NONE) { -> GB(_m[t].m4, 0, 4) != INVALID_ROAD_SUBTYPE ??
16:52:48  <frosch123> why?
16:53:17  <Wolf01> How would you do that?
16:53:36  <frosch123> bool HasRoadTypeRoad(TileType tile) { return GetRoadSubtype(tile) == INVALID_ROADSUBTYPE; }
16:54:00  <frosch123> the subtype specifies whether there is any road
16:54:10  <frosch123> subtype exists for *all* roady tiles
16:54:58  <frosch123> it needs a savegame conversion to move m7 6..7 to m4
16:55:04  <Wolf01> But HasRoadTypeRoad uses RoadTypeIdentifiers, I'm creating the RoadTypeIdentifiers -> recursion
16:55:13  <frosch123> but after that m4 can give the information that m7 had
16:55:44  <Wolf01> I would change HasRoadTypeRoad to GB(_m[t].m4, 0, 4) != INVALID_ROAD_SUBTYPE
16:55:46  <frosch123> RoadTypeIdentifiers can directly read m4
16:55:52  <frosch123> it does not need to check any bits
16:58:42  <Wolf01> I can't follow you
17:00:16  <Wolf01> HasRoadTypeRoad/Tram(TileIndex t) are a bit weird and shouldn't use RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile() but instead check m4 imho
17:06:00  <frosch123> <- i mean like that
17:06:12  <frosch123> removing all usage of m7 and use m4 instead
17:06:30  <frosch123> RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile is very simple now
17:06:36  <frosch123> it does not need to check tiletypes or similar
17:06:57  <frosch123> because the INVALID is directly stored in m4
17:08:23  <Wolf01> Oh, ok
17:09:29  <andythenorth> ach
17:09:37  * andythenorth is getting too obsessed with vehicle chain :(
17:16:14  <Wolf01> Ok, this assers in GetRoadTypeInfo, somewhere the roadtype is 0xF
17:16:19  <Wolf01> *asserts
17:16:39  <frosch123> yes, that is my fault
17:16:44  <frosch123> i was about to patch that
17:17:04  <frosch123> i use GetRoadTypeInfo in all drawing functions, without checking the presence first
17:17:16  <frosch123> just wait until i am done with dinner, then i can fix that :)
17:17:20  <Wolf01> Np
17:17:57  <andythenorth> hmm
17:18:03  <andythenorth> ‘paint’ is not an interesting cargo?
17:18:44  <andythenorth> it moves in crates or cans, and not in high volume
17:18:52  <andythenorth> might as well be chemicals or manufacturing supplies
17:19:00  <frosch123> "paint" gets very interesting very fast, if you transport it in open vans
17:19:11  <andythenorth> we don’t have particle generator
17:19:24  <andythenorth> could use extended vehicle effects though
17:19:34  <andythenorth> tyres are interesting visually?  Or at least different?
17:20:17  <andythenorth>
17:25:12  <Wolf01> Because makyng them rolling was too easy?
17:25:16  <Wolf01> *making
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17:34:46  <andythenorth> ‘vehicle bodies’ cargo?
17:37:49  <Wolf01> There's a similar thing next to my town
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17:39:53  <FLHerne> andythenorth: UKRS2 (+)? has some vehicle wagons, they look rather good
17:40:15  <andythenorth> I drew them :)
17:40:26  <andythenorth> ‘just saying’ :)
17:40:27  <FLHerne> Ah, that would be why they look so good :D
17:40:31  <andythenorth> :P
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17:58:33  <frosch123> Wolf01: pull
18:00:42  <Alberth> andy, the vehicle factory should make those big mining trucks :)
18:02:53  <Wolf01> There's a strange overlay/underlay on everything with the changes to HasRoadTypeRoad/Tram, or do you see them too?
18:03:08  <frosch123> yes, that is missing savegame conversion
18:03:23  <frosch123> noone convers m7 to m4
18:03:39  <frosch123> so all tiles get road+tram subtype 0
18:03:52  <Wolf01> Oh, ok
18:16:19  <andythenorth> Alberth: that’s the Machine Shop :)
18:16:29  <andythenorth> file:///Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build/docs/html/industries.html#machine_shop
18:16:31  <andythenorth> oops
18:16:43  <andythenorth> I should make a plugin for my irc client to stop doing that :P
18:16:53  <andythenorth>
18:19:39  <Alberth> nice :)
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19:26:18  <andythenorth> slag
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19:42:06  <andythenorth>
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19:47:01  <andythenorth> ha
19:47:18  <andythenorth> slag is being tested as marine fertiliser for seabeds that have become desert
19:47:24  <andythenorth> deliver it to fishing grounds :P
19:49:48  <andythenorth> ‘ag slag’
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19:51:57  <frosch123> i don't think they dump it in hot state
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20:08:29  <andythenorth> we could pretend? o_O
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20:11:19  <frosch123> with animation?
20:11:26  <frosch123> like at the end of your video?
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20:20:46  <andythenorth> it could be a method of fishing?
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20:22:01  <tane> howdy
20:22:25  <tane> is there a way to get data out of openttd, e.g. cargo waiting by station etc?
20:27:32  <frosch123> there are gamescript, there is the admin port, there is source code
20:28:06  <frosch123> there are gamescripts talking via the admin port with the outside world
20:28:08  * andythenorth wonders if ‘slag’ cargo is going to produce childish reaction :P
20:28:34  <frosch123> it all depends on your preconditions, whether you can modify the source, or whether you require an unmodified binary
20:31:15  <tane> just trying to enhance my single player experience, so I can work on all of it, just trying to determine the work required and best way to access the data
20:32:44  <Wolf01> andythenorth, transport fever has slag cargo
20:33:00  <frosch123> without modifying the ottd source, i guess all other options are linked from
20:33:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: you mean everyone would read it as "slug"?
20:34:23  <andythenorth> ‘slag’ means something different in UK English :P
20:34:36  <tane> frosch123, thanks
20:34:38  <andythenorth> ha ha Train Fever comments are referencing FIRS
20:35:40  <andythenorth> Wolf01: are there any docs about TF cargos?
20:35:43  * andythenorth can’t find them
20:37:15  <Wolf01> "About 20 cargo types (six end products are required by towns)"
20:37:33  <andythenorth> that’s all I could find :)
20:37:58  <frosch123> andythenorth:
20:38:30  <frosch123> it even has a "smithy forge"
20:38:38  <Wolf01> That's a mod
20:38:38  <andythenorth> so I see :)
20:38:38  <frosch123> is that a common name, or is that copied from firs? :p
20:38:51  <andythenorth> from FIRS
20:39:00  <frosch123> Wolf01: ah, then the mod copied it from firs :)
20:39:09  <andythenorth> much of FIRS is copied from various Railroad Tycoon versions
20:39:17  <Wolf01>
20:39:22  <andythenorth> but that mod is basically FIRS in TF
20:39:38  <Wolf01> You can also have different byproducts based on what you deliver to a factory
20:39:59  <Wolf01> (cargo diagram at the end)
20:40:22  <frosch123> ok, the plain tf chain looks a lot like ttd temperate
20:40:29  <frosch123> i guess all standard :)
20:40:49  <Wolf01> Yes, the only difference is the construction materials plant
20:41:03  <frosch123> and the chemical plant
20:41:41  <frosch123> andythenorth: tf firs has "paint" :)
20:42:03  <andythenorth> :P
20:42:06  <frosch123> no idea what a "sport factory" is
20:42:07  <andythenorth> ‘paint tanker'
20:42:56  <frosch123> oh, it even replicated the stupid bank valuables cycle
20:44:39  <frosch123> never mind, it's actually only a "suggestion" :p
20:44:46  <Alberth> :p
20:45:00  <frosch123> and then many "does not work in tf due to X and Y bugs"
20:47:26  <andythenorth> hmm
20:47:39  <andythenorth> so steel slag is sometimes left to cool and then ‘mined’
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20:47:52  <andythenorth> I could just fill the FIRS quarry with fire cycle
20:48:05  <andythenorth>
20:49:11  <andythenorth>
20:49:25  <andythenorth> made by
20:50:57  <andythenorth> even has the dragline :P
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20:57:57  <andythenorth> I’d have to recreate the fire cycle in frames though
20:58:04  <andythenorth> it doesn’t work any more for me
21:04:47  <Alberth> nn
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