Log for #openttd on 27th November 2016:
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00:13:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:56:16  <Alberth> moin
07:56:48  <Rubidium> moin
07:58:46  <andythenorth> o/
08:02:45  <andythenorth> dot layout from graphviz is non-deterministic :D
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08:14:40  <Alberth> yep
08:15:25  <Alberth> although, are you sure you give it the exact same file every time?
08:15:53  <Alberth> and not eg, generate the file from a Python dictionary, which stores its data in a non-deterministic way?
08:19:22  <andythenorth> it _seems_ to be deterministic for me locally, but bundles varies
08:19:35  <andythenorth> might be different python version, different graphviz, different xyz :)
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08:41:37  <andythenorth> how could I group specialty metals?
08:41:42  <andythenorth> nickel, zinc, copper etc
08:41:54  <peter1138> morning
08:42:04  * peter1138 ponders getting the dev tools out
08:42:06  <andythenorth> which are used for (1) making alloys with iron / steel (2) plating (3) tubes and stuff
08:42:10  <andythenorth> lo peter1138
08:42:18  <andythenorth> doing subways? o_O
08:42:20  <peter1138> or i could just do the normal thing and go on a bike ride
08:42:43  <peter1138> nah i usually just update my ancient patches and then leave them to stagnate again
08:42:53  <peter1138> rgb company colours!
08:43:14  <peter1138> remember when i had working custom bridge heads once...
08:43:49  <andythenorth> :D
08:53:24  <andythenorth> “Base metals” ?
08:53:25  <andythenorth>
08:53:32  <andythenorth> I need zinc, nickel, copper
08:57:22  <Alberth> perhaps make an invisible connection between them?
08:58:31  <Alberth> although, in general, giving dot more freedom produces less bad results
09:00:00  <andythenorth> I think I’ll leave dot to do its thing :)
09:01:33  <andythenorth>
09:01:43  <andythenorth> too much about vehicle parts
09:02:26  <andythenorth> also I added grain and livestock for food and alcohol
09:02:36  <andythenorth> but maybe that’s not needed
09:03:29  <andythenorth> the flow should be quite linear in this economy, but currently it’s spidering
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09:14:05  <Alberth> port shouldn't take vehicles?
09:14:28  <andythenorth> maybe
09:15:25  <andythenorth> the port-type industries are usually where the hax happen to make an economy work without all cargos/industries
09:15:34  <andythenorth> in this economy, they’re not helping at the moment
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09:35:42  <andythenorth>
09:35:49  <andythenorth> previously
09:37:15  <andythenorth> hmm no source for alcohol
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09:41:26  <Alberth> it's not possible to leave it out, apparently :)
09:48:51  <andythenorth> I might drop it :P
09:49:23  <andythenorth> seems a bit unfair, steelworkers probably like a drink
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10:36:19  <Wolf01> Moin
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11:03:31  <frosch123> until slag/steel it looks good
11:03:35  <frosch123> then it turns weird
11:04:05  <frosch123> 3 sources for farm supplies in an economy with hardly farms seems off :)
11:04:29  <frosch123> i would think almost all the steel industries would use eng supplies
11:05:45  <andythenorth> could drop slag as a source of fmsp
11:05:56  <andythenorth> I thought there would be more farm industries when I added that
11:06:09  <frosch123> i would keep slag, and drop the lime
11:07:21  * andythenorth pushed that
11:07:54  <andythenorth> drop alcohol?  or import it?
11:08:46  <frosch123> alcohol from port, base metals from bulk terminal, oil from liquid terminal
11:09:01  <andythenorth> I am thinking approx. same
11:09:09  <andythenorth> but I have nothing to deliver to liquid terminal
11:09:12  <andythenorth> so no prod. boost
11:09:31  <frosch123> farm supplies for export?
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11:09:39  <andythenorth> liquid tractors? o_O
11:09:42  <frosch123> hmm, but makes no sense for liquid terminal given the source industries
11:09:54  <andythenorth> I am thinking to expand ‘chemicals’ a bit
11:10:04  <andythenorth> splitting out ‘plastic’ or something
11:10:05  <Eddi|zuHause> fertilizer is usually powdered, not liquid
11:10:05  <andythenorth> not sure
11:10:19  <andythenorth> I don’t know much about chemical industry
11:11:03  <frosch123> alcohol from port, oil from bulk terminal, drop base metals and add aluminium chain instead?
11:11:28  <andythenorth> bitumen from oil -> + slag -> asphalt
11:11:46  <frosch123> asphalt sounds like builindg materials
11:12:58  <andythenorth> it is
11:13:03  <andythenorth> I think it’s too detailed
11:13:19  <frosch123> chemical plant / oil refinery looks redundant
11:13:28  <andythenorth> yeah
11:13:38  <andythenorth> unless I add plastics or specific petrochemicals
11:13:39  <andythenorth>
11:13:54  <andythenorth> but I don’t see the point of either, it’s Steeltown, not Petroltown
11:14:11  <andythenorth> Chemical Refinery just looks cool :P
11:14:14  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of roads around here were paved with some kind of slag-cobble, but it turned out to be very slippery when wet, after the initial grippy surface wore off
11:14:26  <andythenorth> could import chemicals and fuel
11:14:28  <andythenorth> easier
11:15:05  <andythenorth> I need some liquid cargo for export
11:15:14  <frosch123> alcohol :)
11:15:29  <andythenorth> plausible
11:15:33  <andythenorth> but from what?  Grain?
11:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause> cut the liquid terminal, and add cargo to bulk terminal?
11:15:41  <andythenorth> I did already :)
11:15:46  <andythenorth> now I’m proposing reversing that
11:15:48  <andythenorth> as is FR^2
11:15:52  <andythenorth> oops frosch123
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11:16:02  <FR^2> hehe
11:16:17  <andythenorth> sorry :P
11:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> sausagefinger-tab
11:16:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess engineering supplies for liquid terminal
11:16:53  <frosch123> they just get machinery to unload stuff
11:16:58  <frosch123> nothing for real export
11:17:03  <frosch123> it's like a mine
11:17:06  <andythenorth> plausible
11:17:29  <andythenorth> pipes?
11:17:30  <andythenorth> :P
11:17:37  <frosch123> :p
11:17:44  <andythenorth> as I cut out more cargos, it’s tempting to add more steel types
11:18:11  <frosch123> i still like aluminium
11:18:25  <andythenorth> pipe trains always look good
11:18:32  <andythenorth> aluminium could be imported now
11:18:41  <andythenorth> or bauxite
11:18:42  <frosch123> also a second farm would be cool to dump more of the slag
11:18:49  <andythenorth> I didn’t want an alu. smelter
11:18:51  <frosch123> and to supply alcohol somehow
11:19:21  <Jinassi> It's awfully nice seeing more interaction with ships, but how does that correlate with ship pathfinder? Even a 100 ships can wreck a gameplay, if orders not set right/no buoys/not enough buyos?
11:20:27  <Jinassi> Has there been any update adressing that?
11:20:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: I want to add an engine plant: that would be iron + base metals, and that’s where aluminium could also be used
11:21:00  <frosch123> what exactly are base metals?
11:22:09  <andythenorth> nickel, copper, chromium (and lead, but that’s irrelevant here)
11:22:20  <andythenorth> they go into alloys and for plating
11:22:32  * andythenorth had to look it up :P
11:22:43  <andythenorth> nickel was too specific, as was copper
11:22:53  <frosch123> ok :)
11:23:30  <andythenorth> I’ve got a better graph, just waiting for bundles
11:29:10  <andythenorth>
11:29:20  <andythenorth> interesting how different the dot output is on bundles vs. locally
11:32:20  <frosch123> that graph is complete, isn't it?
11:32:41  <frosch123> no cargo without producer or accepter
11:35:08  <frosch123> i think the graph looks good, but it has too much farm supplies and to little eng supplies, compared to which industries need it
11:35:21  <frosch123> how about adding engsup as output to metal workshop?
11:35:34  <frosch123> and droppping farmsup from machine shop?
11:35:37  <andythenorth> could do
11:35:53  <andythenorth> or adding more fmsp consumers
11:36:28  <frosch123> well, maybe shipping them to the bulk terminal is fine
11:36:58  <andythenorth> tractors are big in pittsburgh / cologne :P
11:38:10  <frosch123> rename hotel to adventure farm and make it accept fmsp?
11:38:19  * andythenorth wondered about distinguishing steel coil, steel bar etc
11:38:23  <andythenorth> probably not
11:38:44  <frosch123> you already have galvanised steel :)
11:40:56  <frosch123> maybe a forest for fmsp? wood could go to builders yard and metal workshop
11:42:09  <andythenorth> maybe
11:42:19  <andythenorth> the building materials lacks lumber
11:42:42  <andythenorth> there was a forest, but I removed it when I removed iron works
11:43:49  <andythenorth> original plan I made had recyclables
11:44:30  <andythenorth> I guess weapons factory is out? :P
11:44:40  <andythenorth> spaceport?
11:44:42  <andythenorth> shipyard?
11:45:23  <frosch123> shipyard is like a port without output cargos
11:45:35  <andythenorth> scrap metal?
11:45:45  <frosch123> spaceport is only useful for accepting nuclear waste
11:46:36  <frosch123> shipyard would accep steel, wood, vehicle parts?
11:46:37  <andythenorth> oil rig fab yard?
11:46:53  <andythenorth> yes, vehicle parts for ships :)
11:46:59  <andythenorth> engines, tyres to hang on the side :)
11:48:57  <andythenorth> I considered a few other things that didn’t make it
11:49:05  <andythenorth> - electrical machinery
11:49:18  <frosch123> make the metal workshop produce mechanics? vehicle factory uses mechanics instead of chemicals?
11:49:59  <frosch123> shipyard then uses steel, wood and mechaincs
11:50:42  <frosch123> or possibly building materials instead of wood
11:51:00  <andythenorth> considered also something like turbines + wind farm components
11:51:03  <andythenorth> exporting those
11:51:24  <frosch123> just needs a better name for "mechanics"
11:51:38  <andythenorth> mechanical components
11:51:43  <andythenorth> overlaps with vehicle parts though
11:52:23  <frosch123> not that much
11:52:31  <frosch123> very different input cargos
11:52:37  <andythenorth> could do body parts and mechanical parts
11:52:50  <andythenorth> powertrain components
11:54:02  <andythenorth>
11:57:24  <andythenorth> I wouldn’t mind dropping chemicals from vehicle factory, it’s too prevalent
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11:59:57  <frosch123> so, body parts and powertrain parts?
12:00:19  <frosch123> powertrain parts also being used by shipyard?
12:00:28  <andythenorth> body parts sounds like stolen kidneys, but yes
12:00:47  <andythenorth> so does the vehicle factory drop galvanised steel (goes to body plant)?  Or does it drop chemicals?
12:00:59  <frosch123> drop chemicals
12:01:14  <frosch123> there are already many chemical destinations and only once source
12:01:26  <frosch123> and the chemicals/paint thing seems a bit far fetched
12:05:09  * andythenorth doing it
12:17:52  <andythenorth> hmm
12:18:12  <andythenorth> graph would be neater if a metals terminal supplied base metal, also then aluminium
12:18:13  <andythenorth>
12:18:18  <andythenorth>
12:24:38  <andythenorth>
12:25:02  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ needs either a metals terminal, or an ore dock (and maybe aluminium chain added)
12:25:25  <andythenorth> port could provide food also, there would be very little food, which is bad for arctic / tropic
12:25:27  <Wolf01> andythenorth, ever considered to do somethin like ECS?
12:25:35  <andythenorth> yes, and no
12:26:25  <andythenorth> most of the FIRS game for me is designing economies
12:26:47  <andythenorth> modular systems remove all the interesting design questions, and substitute very boring design questions
12:27:03  <andythenorth> it’s just a technical exercise of ensuring compatibility for all combinations of module
12:27:31  <frosch123> no shipyard?
12:27:45  <andythenorth> not yet, got to go the supermarket in a minute :D
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12:28:04  <andythenorth> airplane factory also?  (It’s planned for a ‘seattle’ economy anyway)
12:28:26  <frosch123> seems to be the same as shipyard wrt input/output
12:28:38  <andythenorth> outputs ‘airplane bodies’
12:28:42  <andythenorth> they go somewhere off-map
12:28:43  <frosch123> shipyard appear more visually inteesting to me
12:29:05  <andythenorth> o_O
12:29:41  <andythenorth> limits the game to post 1930s or so
12:29:44  <andythenorth> shipyard doesn't
12:29:55  <frosch123> and pre 2000
12:30:05  <frosch123> only small planes fit on a train
12:30:33  <andythenorth> :)
12:31:14  * andythenorth wonders about aluminium: import it, or smelt it?
12:31:34  <frosch123> if you add it, then smelt it
12:31:41  <frosch123> import bauxite, like manganese
12:32:00  <andythenorth> might add an ore terminal
12:32:11  <andythenorth> dunno what that accepts
12:32:21  <andythenorth> planned for australia / brazil economy also :P
12:32:24  <andythenorth> oh such plans :)
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12:33:12  <andythenorth> bauxite + aluminium puts it at 29 cargos
12:33:16  <andythenorth> that’s probably enough
12:33:42  <andythenorth> import explosives from port?
12:34:01  <frosch123> and deliver to?
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12:34:23  <frosch123> and since when do you try to fill all cargo slots?
12:35:03  <andythenorth> I am trying to keep to less than 30
12:35:10  <andythenorth> explosives -> supply yard -> ensp
12:35:21  <andythenorth> no need
12:35:45  <frosch123> explosives only work for mines, and you are importing all the mine stuff
12:35:58  <frosch123> engsups is for heavy industry in this economy
12:36:09  <andythenorth> pipe?
12:36:18  * andythenorth considers pipe cargo, looks cool in wagons
12:36:34  <frosch123> so steel plate and steel pipe?
12:37:06  <frosch123> does not really work together with the galvanized stuff
12:37:19  <andythenorth> nah
12:37:24  <andythenorth> it would have to be a pipe mill
12:37:33  <andythenorth> steel -> pipe -> liquids terminal
12:38:00  <frosch123> i guess is also fine :)
12:38:06  <andythenorth> bit silly
12:38:08  <andythenorth> but might work
12:41:37  <andythenorth> biab
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14:23:14  <andythenorth> ho ho
14:24:08  <andythenorth> is PIPE countable bulk? o_O
14:24:12  <andythenorth> or just piece goods?
14:26:39  <andythenorth> and is the unit tonnes, or metres?
14:29:19  <Eddi|zuHause> piece
14:29:32  <Eddi|zuHause> think like wood logs
14:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so, goes on stake wagons
14:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and tonnes should work
14:30:28  <andythenorth> wood can be countable bulk :P
14:30:30  <andythenorth> but yes
14:30:32  <andythenorth> it’s piece
14:30:40  <andythenorth> and measuring it by length isn’t funny
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14:32:41  <andythenorth> where’s Muelheim?
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14:34:48  <andythenorth> also
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14:47:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there's lots of Mühlheims, but that one is probably in the Ruhr-area
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14:49:09  <Eddi|zuHause>
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14:55:00  <andythenorth> fits this economy :)
14:55:05  <andythenorth> for whatever that’s worth (not much)
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15:16:07  <andythenorth> frosch123: ‘pipe’ makes a mess of the graph…is it worth it?  I want it solely for the cargo graphics :P
15:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> can't say anything about that
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15:30:12  <andythenorth> think I have to delete it
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15:32:09  <frosch123> base metals is missing from metal workshop
15:32:20  <frosch123> did you decide against a shipyard?
15:32:39  <frosch123> not sure the pipe mill should get base metals
15:34:15  <andythenorth> I need to add the shipyard :)
15:34:23  <andythenorth> pipe mill now produces ENSP and BDMT
15:34:32  <frosch123> i like the pipe cargo
15:34:37  <andythenorth> hmm
15:34:43  <andythenorth> ok I’ll revert my delete
15:34:45  <frosch123> the basemetal adds the chaos
15:35:06  <andythenorth> could can that
15:35:08  <andythenorth> just steel
15:35:43  <andythenorth> no cupro-nickel pipes here
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15:38:50  <andythenorth> this economy has an annoying number of coastal industries :)
15:39:13  <andythenorth>  game will build them in tiny lakes :)
15:40:41  <frosch123> yes, it's different to the other economies in having very few primary industries
15:40:59  <frosch123> which is good, since it makes it different for playing other than looking different
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15:43:50  <andythenorth> one day I will find a fix to that coastal industry problem
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15:45:33  <andythenorth> so what does shipyard make? o_O
15:45:36  <andythenorth> ENSP?  Scrap?
15:45:41  <andythenorth> Some kind of Marine Supplies?
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15:56:58  <Alberth> o/
16:00:49  <andythenorth> frosch123: ok you get aluminium
16:01:06  <andythenorth> Alcoa is a big aluminium company, they started in Pittsburgh
16:01:17  <andythenorth> ‘Steeltown’ is Pittsburgh (crossed with the Ruhr)
16:01:19  <andythenorth> so eh :P
16:01:31  <andythenorth> also they made the beer cans for
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16:08:37  <frosch123> shipyard is black hole
16:09:20  <andythenorth> purely?
16:09:25  <frosch123> though if you add marine supplies, you could deliver them to all the other ports
16:09:39  <andythenorth> he yes
16:09:46  <frosch123> might be more interesting than the normal engsups
16:09:47  <andythenorth> odd concept, might work
16:09:59  <andythenorth> I’ve pushed, waiting for bundles again
16:10:12  <andythenorth> aluminium smelter messes up the graph, because it needs chemicals :P
16:10:34  <frosch123> Wolf01: what nrt stuff are you working on? i don't want to work on the same :)
16:10:50  <Wolf01> Nothing atm
16:10:52  <frosch123> i would add the savegame conversion for roadsubtypes otherwise
16:11:02  <Wolf01> +1
16:11:57  <Wolf01> I only implemented part of the patch you linked me yesterday, but I stopped when I noticed it needed the conversion
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16:17:44  <andythenorth> frosch123:
16:20:47  <frosch123> vehicle parts to shipyard?
16:21:55  <andythenorth> dunno, seemed like they’d want glass and stuff
16:22:13  <andythenorth> happy to change it
16:22:32  <andythenorth> ach, aluminium plant has chemicals to nobble it in extreme
16:22:48  <andythenorth> otherwise it’s much more efficient than steel mill at converting scrap metal
16:22:51  <frosch123> build materials instead of vehicle parts to shipyard?
16:23:06  <andythenorth> ha, that is plausible
16:23:18  <andythenorth> especially if it’s a marine yard that produces rigs and stuff as well
16:23:22  <andythenorth> like the forum suggestion
16:24:34  <frosch123> split engsups into engsup/marinesup? or keep it as it?
16:24:39  <frosch123> looks done otherweise
16:25:03  <andythenorth> I am thinking split it
16:25:10  <andythenorth> to see if it makes any sense
16:25:26  <andythenorth> I see nothing else to add, but wonder what can be removed...
16:25:53  <andythenorth> machine shop builds tractors, shipyard builds tugs
16:26:10  <andythenorth> aluminium smelter is bothering me
16:27:01  <frosch123> you could drop vehicles and turn them into goods
16:27:08  <frosch123> then you can also drop vehicle dealer and petrol
16:27:42  <frosch123> you can always drop the hotel
16:29:46  <andythenorth> hotel seems to be undeletable
16:29:53  <andythenorth> whenever I delete it, I add it back :P
16:30:08  <andythenorth> I think I depend on it too much for pax when building first route
16:30:15  <andythenorth>
16:30:27  <andythenorth> MATE?
16:30:33  <andythenorth> MASP seems ugly :P
16:30:37  <andythenorth> SHSP also
16:30:47  <andythenorth> WASP?
16:31:06  <frosch123> why not masp?
16:34:27  <andythenorth> just sounds ugly in my head :)
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16:58:05  <andythenorth> so err…what’s the unit for marine supplies?
16:58:07  <andythenorth> crates?
16:58:12  <andythenorth> and what if it’s a ship? :P
16:58:34  <frosch123> piece?
16:58:50  <andythenorth> vehicles are just ’n vehicles'
16:59:18  <frosch123> i guess crates are the only thing that makes sense to transport
16:59:32  <frosch123> you don't put ships on trucks
16:59:36  <frosch123> at least not real ships
17:02:30  <andythenorth> I’ve pushed, waiting on bundles some more
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17:08:26  <andythenorth>
17:08:37  <andythenorth> I tried quicklime -> aluminium plant, it’s a bit of a mess
17:08:44  <frosch123> you need to add MASP to the graph script :)
17:08:50  <andythenorth> ach yes
17:09:12  <andythenorth> Extreme aluminium smelter merges both bauxite refining and scrap melting
17:09:21  <andythenorth> this economy should just pick one or the other
17:09:35  <Wolf01> Petroleum Fuels to Vehicle Dealer? Why?
17:09:45  <andythenorth> yeah, I wonder if petrol could be dropped entirely?
17:09:47  <frosch123> remove engsups from the ports now?
17:10:15  <andythenorth> I’ll try it
17:10:26  <andythenorth> main input to smelting aluminium is refined bauxite (aluminia), and some cryolite (wiki that)
17:10:31  <andythenorth> + loads of electricity
17:10:40  <andythenorth> and some base metal for tuning the resulting alloy
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17:22:47  <andythenorth> frosch123:
17:22:54  <andythenorth> dot has done a nice job there
17:23:01  <andythenorth> steel from bottom left, foundation of economy
17:23:08  <andythenorth> over to town and export
17:23:37  <andythenorth> pipe has got a bit isolated
17:23:44  <andythenorth> looping it back to liquids terminal made a mess :P
17:23:49  <Wolf01> frosch123, working on something else than saveload?
17:24:51  <frosch123> andythenorth: the graph script has a list of the supplies labels
17:25:05  <andythenorth> I have just changed it :)
17:25:18  <andythenorth> much better
17:25:20  <frosch123> Wolf01: i pushed some stuff earlier
17:25:44  <Wolf01> Already fetched those
17:25:45  <frosch123> though you may need a new newgrf
17:26:18  <Wolf01> I'm going to remove the old Set/GetRoadTypes()
17:26:28  <frosch123>
17:26:56  <frosch123> Wolf01: i am about to remove them :)
17:27:01  <Wolf01> Oh ok
17:27:13  <frosch123> that's part of the savegame conversion
17:27:20  <Wolf01> Good
17:27:44  * andythenorth wonders if designing economies to make a nice dot graph is wise :)
17:27:45  <frosch123> earlier i wondered about the autoreplace gui
17:27:55  <frosch123> for trains there is a selection of railtypes
17:27:55  <Wolf01> You already simplified RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile too?
17:28:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's not the worst thing if players understand the flow :)
17:28:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: but definitely fix the masp before judging :)
17:29:58  <Wolf01> <frosch123> earlier i wondered about the autoreplace gui <- yeah, a big mess, I think we should also split trams from there, as you can't even convert a bus to tram in vanilla
17:30:57  <andythenorth>
17:31:38  <andythenorth> I think that’s worth me play-testing now
17:31:49  <andythenorth> there is probably some back-and-forth with goods, and so on
17:31:56  <frosch123> bulk terminal gets two supplies, intentional?
17:32:03  <andythenorth> yes, we’re over-supplied for FMSP
17:32:17  <andythenorth> relative to demand
17:32:31  <andythenorth> the ports have quite high supply requirements (640t for gung ho)
17:33:05  <andythenorth> that’s why I left ENSP on the ore terminal initially :)
17:33:23  <frosch123> ah, you moved pipe to shipyard
17:33:31  <frosch123> that's why the graph got simpler :)
17:34:04  <frosch123> also add pipe to builders yard?
17:34:28  <frosch123> it's a bit weird that you can send steel to shipyard via and not via pipe mill
17:34:52  <frosch123> but it would be fine if pipe had another destination
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17:36:43  <andythenorth> I think it’s a bit of a mess right now
17:37:53  <andythenorth> I only want the cargo because it might look good on trains :)
17:40:43  <andythenorth> builders yard even has pipe sprites :P
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17:49:27  <andythenorth> I think pipe has to go
17:51:47  <andythenorth> it can be building materials
17:52:12  <andythenorth> pipe can re-appear in some oil-based economy :P
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17:52:29  <frosch123> you mean, keep pipe mill, but make it produce building materials?
17:52:39  <frosch123> and add building materials to shipyard?
17:53:06  <andythenorth> yes
17:53:10  <andythenorth> all of those things
17:53:21  <andythenorth> in another economy, import pipe, and use it for vehicles there
17:53:23  <frosch123> replace vehicles with goods, and drop the port?
17:53:31  <frosch123> and drop vehicle dealer
17:53:39  <andythenorth> nah, I want vehicle cargo sprites :)
17:53:40  <frosch123> oh, no alcohol then :p
17:53:45  <andythenorth> and I won’t provide this chain other place
17:53:47  <andythenorth> places *
17:56:01  <andythenorth> could be ‘rolling mill’ not ‘pipe mill’
17:56:04  <andythenorth> but eh
17:56:07  <andythenorth> potato / potato
18:01:43  <andythenorth>
18:04:25  <frosch123> :)
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18:33:27  <andythenorth> better than
18:33:47  <andythenorth> and
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18:42:01  <andythenorth>
18:42:05  <andythenorth> drop the farm?
18:42:19  <andythenorth> then make Farm Supplies ‘Logging Supplies’?
18:43:38  <Rubidium> make it a server farm and use it to transport information
18:43:55  <andythenorth> ha ha
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18:44:03  <Rubidium>
18:44:08  <andythenorth> that is a whole economy, baseset and grfs :P
18:45:48  * andythenorth was envisaging a network hardware baseset :P
18:45:51  <andythenorth> not sneakernet :)
18:47:11  <frosch123> andythenorth: farm supplies for forest is fine
18:48:07  <andythenorth> bugs me that fertiliser doesn’t go to farm
18:48:16  <andythenorth> also…finland kills 70k-80k moose per year
18:48:23  <andythenorth> and harvests forest fruits and stuff
18:48:31  <andythenorth> so forest -> food? o_O
18:48:52  <andythenorth> or hunting grounds -> food
18:49:10  <andythenorth> no way to increase the output :)
18:49:22  <andythenorth> unless logging supplies includes hunting gear
18:49:30  <frosch123> sounds like a food chain
18:50:23  <frosch123> hunter, rancher, meat grinder, cook, fast food, frozen lasagna, horse meat recycling
18:51:08  <frosch123> could be your first toyland economy :)
18:51:19  <frosch123> ice cream, burgers and such
18:52:15  <frosch123> but might be more a V thing
18:52:23  <andythenorth> you have just described the urban economy I planned :P
18:52:47  <andythenorth> also I thought a florist maybe? o_O
18:52:47  <andythenorth>
18:52:55  <andythenorth> air-freight flowers
18:52:59  <andythenorth> or dutch tulips
18:53:00  <frosch123> netherland economy?
18:53:04  <frosch123> he
18:53:09  <andythenorth> coffee, tulips
18:53:14  <andythenorth> cannabis
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18:53:38  <andythenorth> capitalism
18:53:44  <andythenorth> hmm capitalism isn’t really a cargo
18:53:57  <frosch123> benelux economy?
18:54:03  * andythenorth ponders a stupid conceptual economy
18:54:23  <frosch123> then you can add cacao, chocolate, wafers
18:54:23  <andythenorth> transporting ideas to and from universities, governments, marketplaces, newspapers
18:54:34  <andythenorth> we never did slaves :P
18:54:37  <frosch123> ideas are stupid
18:54:46  <frosch123> everyone has ideas
18:54:49  <andythenorth> I have been reading a book again about how much slaving Europeans did around the North Sea
18:54:57  <frosch123> but it requires work to turn them real
18:55:14  <frosch123> viking economy?
18:55:52  <frosch123> ships, beer -> exploration camp -> slaves, food
18:57:03  <andythenorth> ‘tribute’
18:57:18  <andythenorth> raiders -> monasteries -> tribute
18:58:04  <andythenorth> also the Hanseatic league used to blockade the winter grain into Bergen, if the king of Norway had annoyed them
18:58:14  <andythenorth> and Norwegian Stockfish was a major food commodity
18:58:17  <andythenorth> such books :P
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19:07:21  <andythenorth> 1. Logging Supplies -> Forest -> Wood.  Hunting Grounds -> Food (no production boost)
19:07:34  <andythenorth> 2. Logging & hunting Supplies -> Forest -> Wood, Food
19:08:23  <frosch123> don't add too many supply types :)
19:08:31  <frosch123> they are all just boxes
19:08:33  <andythenorth> Yes
19:09:01  <andythenorth> 3. Farm Supplies -> Forest -> Wood.  Hunting Grounds -> Good (no production boost)
19:09:12  <andythenorth> Food / Good /s
19:09:33  <andythenorth> don’t really want Logging Supplies, it’s messy
19:10:12  <andythenorth> we need sea ice
19:10:17  <andythenorth> then there can be a fishing hole
19:12:24  <andythenorth>
19:13:43  <andythenorth> is ice watertypes? o_O
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19:27:41  <Wolf01> Umh, SceneFactory or SceneProvider? I already know (how to build) the scenes, I only need to build them on request
19:46:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: roadtype :)
19:47:16  <frosch123> the ship crossing works different to rail crossing though. while rail crossings are closed some time before the train passes, ship crossing are closed some time after the ship crossed
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20:26:37  <andythenorth> I was thinking of ice water, hovercraft only :P
20:27:01  <andythenorth> or ice sailing rigs
20:28:11  <V453000> andythenorth going wild?
20:28:26  <andythenorth> apparently
20:29:40  <frosch123> Wolf01: pushed the savegame conversion
20:29:45  <frosch123> m7 6..7 is no longer used
20:29:45  <Wolf01> +1
20:29:56  <frosch123> GetRoadTypes is still present with some compatibility code
20:30:06  <frosch123> it's still used in many places
20:30:22  <frosch123> if you have savegames from the earlier patch, they are likely broken now
20:30:36  <Wolf01> \o/
20:31:23  <frosch123> <- you can have my save though :)
20:37:02  <andythenorth> yay
20:52:32  <andythenorth> hunting camp probably works
20:52:42  <andythenorth> no supply boost = ‘interesting’
20:53:04  <andythenorth> I should have consolidated a single ‘Supplies’ for smaller economies maybe
20:53:05  <andythenorth> but eh
20:53:16  <frosch123> night
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20:56:39  <andythenorth> hmm
20:56:46  <andythenorth> a moose is 500kg
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20:57:47  <andythenorth> and Sweden shoots 8,000 of them per month, averaged
20:58:16  <andythenorth> 50t / month food is probably about right
21:00:03  <Wolf01> I need to fix scenario editor, crashed badly when opening the road toolbar
21:00:37  <andythenorth> is it all separate code there?
21:01:19  <Wolf01> Not really, it shares a lot with normal game, but some initializations must be done there too, and I think I didn't put them into the editor code
21:02:22  <andythenorth> I see :)
21:02:34  <andythenorth> hmm, can I detect rivers
21:02:41  * andythenorth considers fish nets for river fish
21:02:46  <andythenorth> salmon and such
21:02:50  <andythenorth> very arctic :)
21:03:35  <andythenorth>
21:08:49  <Wolf01> <- we use these here
21:10:06  <Wolf01> and these
21:13:03  <andythenorth> should probably try and detect rivers :P
21:13:07  <andythenorth> not tonight though
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22:15:48  <fap> hello
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22:22:32  <Guest175> whats the largest most impressive saved game out there that i can download?
22:23:24  <Guest175> with like the entire map already covered in cities and unlimited trains in every nook and cranny of the map?
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23:38:56  <FLHerne> Openttdcoop ones are scary
23:39:01  <FLHerne> Guest175: ^
23:40:06  <FLHerne> (
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