Log for #openttd on 9th December 2016:
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00:51:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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10:21:33  <andythenorth> o/
10:22:34  <crem> \o
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11:04:20  <Wolf01> o/
11:10:08  <__ln__> signore 01
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11:40:22  <Alberth> o/
11:41:02  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
11:42:32  <Wolf01> o/
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11:43:19  * andythenorth reading nml source to try and figure out the string literal problem
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11:45:33  <andythenorth> I’m hitting L165 here
11:50:12  <Alberth> reads to me like it expects a literal like "andy", or a string type    string(...)
11:51:50  <andythenorth> yes
11:52:09  <andythenorth>
11:52:15  <andythenorth> chokes on TTD_STR_CARGO_SINGULAR_COAL
11:52:32  <andythenorth> which isn’t a literal?
11:53:06  <Alberth>
11:53:26  <Alberth> no, a literal is something with "  thingies
11:53:45  <Alberth> string(TTD_STR_CARGO_SINGULAR_COAL)   would work I think
11:54:35  <Alberth> ^ I am pretty sure I copied that knowledge from one of your projects :p
11:54:43  <Alberth> (forum link)
11:56:37  <Alberth> yep, from fish:   grep string fish.nml  | grep ,
11:57:38  <Alberth>
11:58:39  <andythenorth> grf strings work
11:58:45  <andythenorth> but the problem is TTD strings
11:59:28  <Alberth> they are a number?
11:59:45  <andythenorth> they have constants defined
11:59:53  <andythenorth> and they’re expected to be literals
11:59:55  <Alberth> string(1234)   doesn't do anything useful (with a more useful number probably)
11:59:58  <Alberth> ?
12:00:01  <andythenorth> but can’t use a literal inside string()
12:00:16  <Alberth> ah
12:01:00  <andythenorth> I am just double-checking, but I expect to get ‘not found’ if I do string(TTD_STRING)
12:01:03  <andythenorth> yeah, not found :)
12:01:31  <andythenorth> interesting problem
12:02:24  <Alberth>  <-- says not to use string()
12:02:34  <Alberth> I assume it's correct there :)
12:04:20  <andythenorth> it’s correct :)
12:04:29  <andythenorth> but that means TTD strings can’t be used as substrings
12:04:30  <andythenorth> nvm
12:05:51  <andythenorth> if I don’t use the default TTD cargo strings (where they exist), translators will have to duplicate existing translations
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12:06:21  <andythenorth> I already provide them in English for the docs, which can’t access TTD strings, so it’s no extra work for me
12:06:28  <andythenorth> but for translators, might be annoying
12:10:51  <Alberth> what happens if you use the number inside the 'string()' ?
12:11:10  <Alberth> also, do you use it as parameter, or as main string?
12:12:51  <Alberth> there is no regression test either, so it may have been tested last a looong time ago, if at all
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12:26:41  <argoneus> good morning train friends
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12:30:22  <andythenorth> Alberth: using the string number fails as ‘First parameter of string() must be an identifier'
12:30:30  <andythenorth> which is expected I think :)
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12:36:29  <Alberth> yeah, and parameter?
12:37:58  <Alberth> string(STR_JUST_STRING, 1234)    where  STR_JUST_STRING : {STRING}
12:39:25  * andythenorth tests
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12:39:43  <Alberth> this would suggest you can just use the constant name  instead of string(...)
12:39:53  <andythenorth> that was my initial expectation
12:40:56  <Alberth> 1234 can be a TTD_STR_...   literal, I would expect
12:40:59  <andythenorth> the number doesn’t work as a parameter
12:41:03  <Alberth> :(
12:41:06  <andythenorth> Expected a (literal) string
12:41:12  * andythenorth checks the generated nml
12:41:20  <andythenorth> it’s a very not-simple test case :(
12:41:57  <Alberth> it starts to sound like a bug, imho
12:42:17  <andythenorth> in the parser?
12:42:38  * andythenorth would suspect more likely in FIRS, right now :P
12:42:43  <andythenorth> I need to make a simple test case
12:42:44  <Alberth> no, you'd get a "parse error" then :)
12:43:05  <Alberth> nml has a 'regression' directory with tests
12:43:44  <andythenorth> yes
12:44:02  <Alberth> no TTD_   text in there
12:46:53  <andythenorth> so I made a simpler test case which fails also
12:47:04  <andythenorth> not a literal
12:47:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i would expect you can only use TTD_STR_* by pushing it to the text stack
12:47:24  <Eddi|zuHause> not using the string(..., ...) method
12:47:34  <andythenorth> that is plausible, and might give a solution
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14:27:51  <supermop> yo
14:30:01  <crem> yo++
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15:20:39  <andythenorth> ach now I have to look up text stack syntax for nml :P
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15:52:05  <Wolf01> :o today is friday
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16:03:31  <Alberth> yep
16:23:47  <Wolf01> Mid week holidays disturb me a lot
16:25:08  <Alberth> lack of mid-week holidays is also disturibing, every now and then :)
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18:45:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27684 trunk/src/lang/italian.txt (2016-12-09 19:45:36 +0100 )
18:45:45  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> italian: 1 change by lorenzodv
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19:14:44  <andythenorth> o/
19:14:49  <supermop> yo
19:16:46  <frosch123> <- andythenorth: can you try that one?
19:18:08  * andythenorth patches nml
19:18:11  <supermop> i still haven't picked a malware appliance yet
19:19:26  <frosch123> supermop: do you need a list of boat owners?
19:20:00  <supermop> my dad is lobbying for me to get a surface book, but 2700USD and still only 16gb ram is tough for my budget
19:20:00  <andythenorth> supermop: ‘many options, decide late’ is usually a good strategy
19:20:09  <andythenorth> or you just buy a mac, like me, because eh, choice is boring
19:20:11  <supermop> frosch123: sure why not
19:20:20  <supermop> andythenorth: that what the wife does
19:20:31  <andythenorth> it’s a much simpler form of consumerism
19:20:44  <andythenorth> particularly for phones, about which I have zero interest
19:20:58  <andythenorth> so I just buy ‘phone’ which = cheapest iphone with 32GB
19:21:23  <supermop> getting anything set up with autocad etc by week before christmas would be nice though, allowing me to work from 'home' in the week before new years
19:21:37  <supermop> andythenorth: pixel with 128 is nice
19:21:52  <supermop> where 'home' is possibly asia
19:22:43  * andythenorth prefers no research, no thinking, no angst about ‘what kind of person am I?’  or ‘what’s the most performance per £?’ :P
19:24:52  <supermop> over the past year ive used a home computer, when mine was still working, for 1)playing go, 2) reading tt-forums, 3) designing a few pieces of junk to 3d print
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19:25:08  <supermop> so really dont need much of a beast
19:29:06  <supermop> maybe ill just spend computer budget on gifts for wife
19:29:21  <supermop> and hope that she then buys me a computer
19:29:26  <andythenorth> buy wife new mac, use wife’s old mac
19:29:55  <andythenorth> install windows if you need it
19:32:18  <andythenorth> ach
19:32:26  <andythenorth> how do I build nmlc binary? o_O
19:32:31  <andythenorth> I thought it was just ‘make'
19:32:52  <frosch123> binary?
19:33:05  <andythenorth> I need an nmlc I can install in python
19:33:51  <frosch123> i thought you would just run /home/andy/nml/nmlc firs.nml
19:34:19  <andythenorth> yes I should do that
19:34:49  <andythenorth> but I still need to build that nmlc?
19:35:00  * andythenorth has serious Friday brain
19:35:10  <frosch123> no :) it's python
19:35:18  <frosch123> or did you move to windows?
19:35:44  <andythenorth> oh that nmlc is just an entry point
19:35:48  <andythenorth> I should have opened it and looked :P
19:37:05  <andythenorth> I am being surrounded by brio train track construction right now
19:38:31  <frosch123> someone likes trains?
19:39:56  <andythenorth> two someones
19:41:37  <andythenorth> I have to dig some more
19:41:38  <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: "../lang/english.lng", line 5: Undefined command "TITLE"
19:41:49  <andythenorth> firs nml can’t be built without all the args
19:41:57  <andythenorth> which is why I was trying to install it :)
19:42:08  <andythenorth> (it=nmlc in my python bin dir)
19:42:22  * andythenorth will figure it out
19:42:45  <supermop> NewBrioTypes
19:43:44  <andythenorth> ach I need to give the path to custom_tags.txt
19:44:44  <andythenorth> ok, building now
19:46:13  <andythenorth> frosch123:
19:46:45  * andythenorth must parent for a bit :)
19:50:47  <frosch123> hmm, is the string() stuff even meant for parameters?
19:51:00  <frosch123> it looks more like static concatenation of string
19:52:55  <frosch123> looking at extra_text_primary.pynml: the textstack stuff is done via STORE_TEMP, not via string
20:04:27  <frosch123> <- listing the railtype explicitly in the tile info window
20:05:04  <frosch123> the previous construction from strings was only done for plain rail tiles, likely was weird for translations, and does not work for road/tram types :)
20:09:24  <frosch123> trashing 22 translations per language :)
20:10:14  <frosch123> hmm, does trashing translations actually work in eints?
20:10:27  <frosch123> i think it just keeps them as invalid
20:57:07  <andythenorth> it’s not a great user story for translators afaik
20:57:23  <andythenorth> the FIRS change I want to make will improve translations for the long term
20:57:37  <andythenorth> but in the short term, translations will be very broken, until translators fix them
20:58:14  <andythenorth> I can do this with text stack if I need to
20:58:36  <andythenorth> it’s just usually easier to start by concatenating strings, especially because they’re static
21:00:07  <Alberth> there is a minimum number of old translations that eints keeps, and a time out, iirc
21:00:15  <frosch123> i wonder how to trick eints
21:00:30  <frosch123> i could commit the script-fixed translations first
21:00:36  <frosch123> and then commit the baselanguage change
21:01:06  <frosch123> maybe that results in valid but outdated strings, so people could still look at them
21:01:11  <Alberth> reduce the numbers, restart, eints throws stuff in the bin, stop eints, revert numbers, start eints again
21:01:43  <Alberth> no idea what values you use, maybe it's ok already :)
21:02:56  <Alberth> oh, base strings change of course, it trashes deleted base strings afaik, no way to ever see them again
21:03:34  <Alberth> ie, it's all attached to the string name
21:04:20  <Alberth> upload language should know, I guess
21:07:43  <andythenorth> hmm
21:07:50  <andythenorth> dunno whether to try switching to text stack
21:07:58  <andythenorth> or just put the cargo strings I need in the lang file
21:08:19  <frosch123> how many strings does firs need?
21:08:31  <frosch123> in the compiled output
21:10:40  <andythenorth> total string count?  Or just for this one use case?
21:11:36  <frosch123> hmm, firs does not compile
21:11:54  <andythenorth> error? o_O
21:12:37  <Alberth> it seems, after modifying the base language, it walks through all translations, and deletes all string names that are no longer available (pages/, lines 174
21:12:44  <frosch123> i guess you already pushed stuff :)
21:13:08  <frosch123>  nmlc info: D0xx strings: 84/1024 <- ok, looks like there is no problem currently
21:13:25  <frosch123> i was worried that composing all the combinations would result in many strings
21:13:32  <andythenorth> DCxx strings: 236/256
21:13:40  <andythenorth> but that’s...ok?
21:13:49  <frosch123> those are cargo names :)
21:14:04  <andythenorth> hmm
21:14:12  <andythenorth> that’s….possibly a problem soon
21:14:23  <frosch123> maybe also industry names, not sure
21:14:27  <andythenorth> especially if I duplicate the OpenTTD default strings
21:14:51  <andythenorth> I use 19 default cargo names
21:15:37  <andythenorth> also I pushed ‘not broken compile’ :|
21:15:40  <frosch123> Alberth: are you talking to me or to andy?
21:15:49  <frosch123> we kind of had two string discussions :)
21:15:49  <andythenorth> me :)
21:18:17  <andythenorth> I don’t understand the result of using nml ‘string(ID, substring)’ w.r.t string count
21:18:38  <andythenorth> does each resulting string use up a string ID?
21:18:56  <frosch123> if you use STR_A and STR_B then string(STR_A, STR_B) adds a third string
21:19:00  <andythenorth> ach
21:19:11  <frosch123> it does not actually use the textstack, it statically composes a new one
21:19:14  <andythenorth> I was hoping there were magic bytes for ‘insert another string’
21:19:24  <andythenorth> I might switch to the text stack for this
21:19:35  <andythenorth> does the text stack have any performance costs?
21:19:53  <frosch123> none that you can measure
21:20:05  <frosch123> rendering the actual font will always take longer
21:20:09  <andythenorth> it will increase compile time marginally, there will be a lot more nml switches
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21:26:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27685 /trunk/src/lang (56 files in 2 dirs) (2016-12-09 22:26:37 +0100 )
21:26:45  <DorpsGek> -Change: Preemptively invalidate translation changes of next commit for eints.
21:27:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27686 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2016-12-09 22:27:22 +0100 )
21:27:28  <DorpsGek> -Change: List railtype of rail tiles explicitly in the tile info window.
21:27:38  <frosch123> let's see whether that tricked eints
21:28:14  <frosch123> yay, looks good
21:28:58  <frosch123> i may get scolded by the farm for one commit, but the eints result is fine :p
21:29:12  <Alberth> :)
21:30:09  <Alberth> nn
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21:35:05  * andythenorth must find nml text stack docs  
21:36:33  <frosch123> pretty sure there are none :)
21:37:32  <frosch123> <- possibly trhat one
21:38:52  <andythenorth> so just store temp, and {STRING} (or with formatting)
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21:39:32  <andythenorth> oh and I might have to stuff the dwords :P
21:39:37  <andythenorth> just like old times
21:57:53  <frosch123> <- so many lines :p
21:59:26  <Wolf01> +1
22:01:31  <frosch123> road vehicle property 05 ?
22:01:48  <frosch123> would be the same number of for trains
22:03:21  <frosch123> did someone already check whether road compatibility works the same as for railtypes?
22:03:39  <frosch123> is railtype compatibility transitive?
22:04:29  <frosch123> so, if off-road vehicles could run on town roads, and normal vehicles could run on highway, would that imply that off-road vehicles could run on highways?
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22:08:15  <Rubidium> but isn't normal road like the universal railtype?
22:08:47  <frosch123> venice road is pretty much incompatible to everything
22:09:15  <frosch123> anyway, looks like railtype poweredness is not transitive, so the same applies to roads
22:09:47  <andythenorth> type compatibility is always nuts :D
22:10:00  <andythenorth> the only way I could make sense of it in a grf was…
22:10:12  <andythenorth> …types aren’t compatible, except for el-[type]
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22:13:09  <Wolf01> Anything that can run on normal road could also run on any other road-like type, the inverse is not entirely true
22:13:39  <Wolf01> A truck should be able to run on dirt road too
22:14:30  <Wolf01> The problem might be if you define a tram type to be like a road
22:14:38  <frosch123> there was a story about some garbage truck driver, who get stuck in the middle of some forest
22:15:54  <frosch123> apparently he had an rendezvous during working hours in his "company car" and took a detour :)
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22:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone ever wonder why germans sleep "out" and english sleep "in"?
22:27:37  <Wolf01> ?
22:28:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the name for when you start your day late
22:28:35  <Wolf01> I prefer oversleep
22:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that's when you didn't intend to...
22:29:14  <Wolf01> Then lazy
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22:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that's... always :p
22:30:24  <Wolf01> I had the habit to really wake up only after drinking the coffee at work, at least 1 hour after starting from home
22:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably the opposite of "sleeping in"
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22:51:09  <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, do you think urban games will release another patch for TF or they will just make TF2 with the fixes?
22:51:30  <goodger> they already did that
22:51:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there will be fixes for about a year after release
22:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and then they're probably working on the next thing
22:53:03  <Wolf01> The last patch was really needed, but I still have those annoying performance drop for no reason at all :(
22:54:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit early to lose hope, i think...
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22:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> these types of fixes take some time
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