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00:08:41 <lorran78> i installed all tools to compile 00:09:03 <lorran78> how can i use make with makefile from the grf source? 00:28:46 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd 00:46:25 <lorran78> i have that error with "make --makefile=(file)" ->"/bin/bash: cc: command not found" 00:52:38 <glx> means it didn't find cc.exe 00:52:59 <glx> I think you can edit makefile to use gcc instead 00:57:53 <lorran78> oh i see :p 00:58:49 <glx> and usually "make" should be enough, unless your makefile is not "makefile" 00:58:50 <lorran78> hum how can i recognise the line with cc error? 01:00:34 <glx> I guess it's around .pnml stuff 01:00:46 <glx> gcc is used to preprocess 01:06:46 *** crem_ has joined #openttd 01:08:26 *** crem has quit IRC 01:12:33 <lorran78> it's in a pnml you mean or in makefile where pnml is written? 01:14:20 <lorran78> after that error i have "make: *** [mynewgrf.nml] Error 127" 01:15:49 <glx> I'm not a nml specialist, maybe ask tomorrow when they are awake 01:17:04 *** gelignite_ has joined #openttd 01:17:56 <lorran78> hum okay :) 01:18:04 <lorran78> i have a strange question now :p 01:19:20 <lorran78> is it possible to put the item transmiter (non destructible item) in the construction item (to prevent some place from industries arrival) 01:19:32 <lorran78> and so make it destructible :p 01:19:47 <glx> you can buy land 01:19:59 <lorran78> ah 01:20:06 <lorran78> and then destroy things? 01:20:19 <lorran78> even non destructible? 01:21:38 <glx> I can't remember if magic bulldozer can remove undestructible stuff 01:22:33 <glx> https://wiki.openttd.org/Magic_bulldozer 01:22:47 <lorran78> magic bulldozer haha :p 01:23:11 <glx> but it's highly recommended to only have it activated on paused game :) 01:23:51 <glx> https://wiki.openttd.org/Cheats#Magic_bulldozer <-- with pictures 01:24:08 <lorran78> cool :p 01:24:17 *** gelignite has quit IRC 01:24:17 <lorran78> how put this in game? 01:24:24 <lorran78> grf too? 01:24:45 <glx> top of the page in second link 01:26:12 *** Progman has quit IRC 01:26:26 <lorran78> hum 01:26:39 <lorran78> then maybe it will be easier to cheat to back in time lol 01:26:45 <lorran78> and then have the first train :p 01:40:22 *** lorran78 has quit IRC 01:54:59 *** lorran78 has joined #openttd 01:55:13 <lorran78> i was kicked ? :) 01:57:45 *** crem has joined #openttd 01:58:57 *** crem_ has quit IRC 02:00:32 <glx> no, when you are kicked you know it 02:01:10 *** lorran78 was kicked by DorpsGek (just a test) 02:10:39 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest204 02:10:40 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 02:15:07 *** Guest204 has quit IRC 02:54:59 *** JohnnyWing has quit IRC 03:20:16 *** JohnnyWing has joined #openttd 03:20:19 *** JohnnyWing has left #openttd 03:20:44 *** JohnnyWing has joined #openttd 03:25:45 *** gelignite_ has quit IRC 03:35:05 *** JohnnyWing has quit IRC 03:40:33 *** glx has quit IRC 03:53:25 *** Biolunar_ has joined #openttd 04:00:24 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 04:10:21 *** _Fatmice_ has joined #openttd 04:10:33 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 04:11:59 *** maciozo has quit IRC 04:15:24 *** Fatmice has quit IRC 04:32:12 *** Fatmice has joined #openttd 04:37:12 *** _Fatmice_ has quit IRC 05:24:37 *** chomwitt3 has joined #openttd 05:31:04 *** chomwitt2 has quit IRC 05:53:19 *** tokai has quit IRC 05:53:45 *** tokai has joined #openttd 05:53:45 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 07:07:43 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:56:34 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:02:53 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 08:02:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 08:05:37 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 08:06:29 *** efess has quit IRC 08:08:15 *** BluesInTheNet has joined #openttd 08:13:06 <Alberth> moin 08:21:39 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 09:12:16 <andythenorth> coop jenkins hates me :) 09:12:28 <andythenorth> I have pushed a branch that I know won’t build there 09:15:33 *** lorran78 has joined #openttd 09:17:59 <lorran78> hello Alberth :p 09:20:17 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 09:20:49 <lorran78> i have almost done my new grf from opengfx+ trains, i installed all tools to compile a new nml but now i have problem with using "make" it says "cc" not found something like that 09:21:22 <Alberth> ok 09:21:25 <andythenorth> paste the error? 09:21:26 <lorran78> don't know where change cc to gcc someone told me to do that 09:21:36 <lorran78> okay wait 09:21:55 <Alberth> windows? 09:22:45 <Alberth> oh, maybe it works anyway.. try CC=gcc make 09:23:04 <lorran78> i am compiling :p 09:23:18 <lorran78> lol seems the space in the folder was a prob 09:23:25 <lorran78> wait 09:23:31 <lorran78> even with " " 09:23:47 <lorran78> maybe ok now it's processing 09:24:06 <Alberth> yeah, filenames with spaces are confusing, don't know why people do that 09:24:21 <lorran78> juste "my documents" :p 09:24:30 <lorran78> because i put the whole folder 09:24:54 <lorran78> is it normal it doesn't use cache anymore? 09:25:04 <Alberth> it's still confusing, if you list the contents at a console you get "my" "documents" 09:25:12 <Alberth> now do you have 2 files or just one? 09:25:18 <lorran78> wait 09:25:28 <Alberth> nope :) 09:26:48 <lorran78> make --makefile=makefile then it seems the command "nmlc opengfx+trains.nml" automatic 09:27:27 <lorran78> and it's longer because it doesn't use cache anymore 09:27:46 <lorran78> processing... i hope it will be ok 09:30:23 <Alberth> have a tea or coffee while you let the machine compute 09:31:12 <lorran78> okay 09:35:48 <andythenorth> it _should_ use the nml cache after the first run 09:35:51 <andythenorth> which is faster 09:36:04 <andythenorth> there are some notes about make being slow under mingw also 09:36:09 <andythenorth> no known solution 09:37:03 <lorran78> yes but not this time the cache 09:37:04 <lorran78> but ! 09:37:14 <lorran78> i have my first grf i think :p 09:37:25 <lorran78> i go test :p 09:38:02 <lorran78> make made me a folder with the new grf inside 09:38:11 <lorran78> and the grf and a tar file 09:39:34 <lorran78> :( 09:39:41 <lorran78> my changes don't work :( 09:39:53 <lorran78> but the grf is not same size 09:40:03 <lorran78> hum 09:40:33 <Alberth> sure you don't load the old one? 09:40:54 <Alberth> run openttd with -d grf=4 09:41:08 <Alberth> gives a dump of where it finds/loads grfs 09:41:29 <Alberth> you may want to save output to a file :) 09:41:47 <lorran78> should i remove the old nml file in the folder? 09:42:02 <lorran78> i saw no new nml was created is it normal? 09:42:08 <Alberth> nml doesn't matter, openttd doesn't know nml 09:42:17 <lorran78> but make prog? 09:42:45 <Alberth> oh, make checks if one of its sources has changed, if not, it skips rebuilding the same file again 09:43:28 <Alberth> but it's safe to either 'touch' one source file, or delete the destination file 09:43:33 <Alberth> make will rebuild it 09:44:00 <lorran78> ok 09:44:57 <Alberth> you can ask make why it skips things, but output is usually too long to read :) 09:45:07 <andythenorth> @seen frosch123 09:45:07 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 35 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <frosch123> night 09:45:41 <Alberth> it's not even afternoon yet! 09:46:25 <andythenorth> 14 hours is plenty of sleeping time :) 09:48:02 <lorran78> if i delete the nml file then i have error 09:48:29 <lorran78> [CPP] ogfx-trains.nml /bin/bash: cc: command not found make: *** [ogfx-trains.nml] Error 127 09:48:43 <Alberth> sounds about right 09:49:00 <lorran78> but it's not my nml only my pnml :p 09:49:16 <lorran78> nevermind or something wrong? 09:49:22 <Alberth> it concluded it needs to run the C pre-preprocessor again to construct the nml file from its *.pnml sources 09:49:36 <Alberth> except you don't have a 'cc' for that 09:49:54 <Alberth> does CC=gcc make --makefile=makefile work? 09:50:21 <Alberth> CC=gcc basically says "for cc, use gcc" 09:50:37 <lorran78> it's strange when i have the original nml file there is no more "cc" error 09:50:47 <Alberth> no it's not 09:50:59 <Alberth> it checks time stamps of all *.pnml files 09:51:10 <Alberth> it checks timestamp of the destination .nml 09:51:32 <Alberth> if the latter is younger than all the former, it skips building the nml 09:51:41 <lorran78> oh okay 09:51:42 <Alberth> and never reaches the point of needing cc 09:52:14 <lorran78> but i deleted the pnml which was near the nml 09:52:30 <lorran78> ogfx-trains.pnml(something like that) 09:52:47 <lorran78> now it used the cache 09:53:08 <Alberth> no doubt make looked for a way to create that file again, and failed 09:54:10 <Alberth> maybe it pulled the file from the VCS :) 09:56:11 <lorran78> hum i downloaded all grf from online content and i can't find them 09:56:12 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:56:20 <Alberth> hola 09:56:32 <Wolf01> o/ 09:56:41 <Alberth> all grf? that's pretty useless 09:56:50 <lorran78> where are the downloaded grf? 09:56:58 <Alberth> you likely only need a few 09:57:01 <lorran78> yes i know i wanted to test something :p 09:57:36 <Alberth> don't know where they are at windows, but the README file of OpenTTD can tell you 09:57:39 <lorran78> maybe i take the original grf i want to move them somewhere else 09:57:44 <lorran78> ok 09:58:27 <Alberth> if you changed grfid, you should not have a problem with existing other grfs 09:58:34 *** chomwitt3 has quit IRC 09:58:36 <Alberth> unless there is a conflict in IDs 09:59:02 <lorran78> i made my own id :p 09:59:07 <lorran78> wait i check 09:59:12 *** efess has joined #openttd 09:59:20 <Alberth> ok, so does it show up if you select it in the newgrf window? 09:59:51 <lorran78> yes i changed to MZ+0 10:00:11 <lorran78> i think i select my own but don't know how to be sure 10:01:46 <lorran78> tell me if my changes are ok to introduce the train before the original date 10:01:48 <lorran78> item(FEAT_TRAINS, kirbypaul) { property { sprite_id: SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN; // We have our own sprite misc_flags: bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP, TRAIN_FLAG_2CC); introduction_date: date(1, 1, 1); } graphics { default: kirbypaul_default_indepot_switch; purchase: kirbypaul_default_switch_gui; } } 10:02:15 <Alberth> use a pastebin, like paste.openttdcoop.org 10:02:28 <lorran78> oh yes here it's weird 10:03:27 <lorran78> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p39jfaii3 10:04:09 <Alberth> you can try a less drastic change first, like 1975 instead of 1925 10:05:09 <Alberth> hmm, you don't make a copy first? 10:06:42 <lorran78> i want to start on year 0 :p 10:06:58 *** Progman has joined #openttd 10:07:27 <lorran78> i add 100 year between all trains but no train works 10:07:45 <Wolf01> "When I open a particular page in the browser the game fps drops" "change browser"... 10:08:56 <Alberth> "When I open a browser, it eats 2GB memory" 10:09:24 <Wolf01> I have 16GB for that :P 10:09:52 <Alberth> lorran78: well, first have something that works at all, I think :) 10:09:58 <Wolf01> Game's rendering is broken as shit (transport fever fyi) 10:10:23 *** JohnnyWing has joined #openttd 10:12:12 <andythenorth> Alberth: if game had ’Tram’ and ‘Electric Tram’…what would ‘Tram’ refer to? o_O 10:14:28 <Alberth> I'd pick the former, but I very much rely on proper naming of things 10:14:59 <andythenorth> in UK most trams would be electric by default 10:15:03 <Alberth> I can see some room for confusion there :p 10:15:07 <andythenorth> tram kind of means ‘electric’ 10:15:15 <andythenorth> but ‘Non-Electric Tram’ is ugly 10:15:39 <Alberth> steam tram? 10:15:58 <Alberth> ie, it's also not "Non-maglev train" 10:16:30 <Alberth> Non-diesel-electric-monorail-maglev train 10:16:31 <Wolf01> Tram is the standard tram 10:16:38 <andythenorth> ‘Self-Propelled Tram’? 10:16:38 <Wolf01> Standard OTTD tram 10:16:46 <Wolf01> Electric, with catenary 10:17:05 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8240/road-hog.tar 10:17:11 <andythenorth> and https://www.openttd.org/en/download-ratt 10:17:16 <andythenorth> try it for yourself :) 10:17:27 <Wolf01> It's the same problem about elrail 10:17:39 <andythenorth> isn’t it just 10:17:53 <Wolf01> At the beginning we had electric trains running on normal rails 10:18:01 <Wolf01> Then catenary popped out 10:18:19 <Alberth> implementing that was a mistake :) 10:18:27 <Wolf01> Now we started with catenary, then no-catenary popped out 10:19:00 <Wolf01> The right solution would have been to make catenary as infrastructure and not as another rail/road type 10:22:32 <andythenorth> that ship sailed :) 10:22:38 <andythenorth> it may or may not have been electric :P 10:24:16 <Wolf01> I tried to make it non-electric, so the electric one had to be added with grf, but frosh changed it again to electric to not break compatibility/graphics with existing grfs 10:25:26 *** ConductorCat has quit IRC 10:29:18 *** chomwitt3 has joined #openttd 10:45:03 <andythenorth> that means we need some way to refer to unpowered tramway 10:45:08 <andythenorth> “UNTR” :P 10:46:16 <Alberth> POTT (plain old tram tracks) 10:47:24 <andythenorth> :P 10:51:40 <Wolf01> http://steamcommunity.com/app/446800/discussions/1/154643982162787381/?tscn=1482024572 stupid idiots 10:57:55 <Wolf01> http://imgur.com/a/FwkeC also, sometimes closing OTTD (with the "X" button) while debugging it gives this error, it started to do it about a week ago and happened just one or two times after every build... should I change the web browser? 10:57:56 <__ln__> other than that, is transport fever a good game, worth the 25€? 10:58:05 <Wolf01> No, not worth 25€ 10:58:10 <Wolf01> 15€ maybe 10:58:20 <Wolf01> It is a nice game 11:00:19 <Wolf01> It lacks many features even to make it work (for example you can only give load orders, no leave empty), maintainance works by replacing the whole consists, no min bank balance to autoreplace, capacities fucked up and mods try to make them worse 11:00:39 <andythenorth> early days 11:00:44 <Wolf01> "early" 11:00:56 * andythenorth would have tried something different than 3D reimplementation of Transport Tycoon 11:01:15 <andythenorth> Factorio is more ‘interesting’ than Train Fever, even though I won’t play it 11:01:47 <Wolf01> Train fever, as transport fever is just a train fever with ships and aircrafts, had some of these bug fixed, like the terrain filling half of the tunnel entrances 11:02:59 <__ln__> the plural of aircraft is aircraft unless you work in the airplane industry 11:03:36 <Wolf01> Oh, really? 11:03:40 <andythenorth> airplanes 11:03:56 <__ln__> yeah, really 11:05:38 <Wolf01> I always used aircraft as synonym of airplane 11:06:19 * andythenorth ponders a better OpenTTD 11:06:25 <andythenorth> something like: 11:06:39 <andythenorth> - all vehicles inherently moddable in game by player (as a type, not individually) 11:06:57 <andythenorth> - not much focus on cities or landscape 11:07:13 <andythenorth> - optional ‘drive the vehicles’ stupid mode 11:07:21 <Wolf01> You want a puzzle game? 11:07:22 <andythenorth> - voxels 11:07:49 <andythenorth> I had the idea before I saw Scrap Mechanic, but eh, something like Scrap Mechanic, but with a fleet of vehicles, and goals 11:08:01 <andythenorth> http://www.scrapmechanic.com/ 11:08:43 <andythenorth> Scrap Mechanic + Euro Truck Simulator + Transport Tycoon 11:10:22 <Wolf01> That looks nice 11:11:39 <andythenorth> X + Y + Z is the worst way to explain any creative concept, ever :D 11:11:45 <__ln__> Wolf01: an aircraft can be a helicopter or a balloon 11:15:51 <Wolf01> Yes, all bops are flytz and all flytz are zops, but not all zops are bops 11:16:48 <lorran78> sorry i was afk eating :p 11:20:17 <andythenorth> eh so the roads I want in Hog are probably not the dirt roads some people envisage 11:20:31 <andythenorth> should I use HAUL? :P 11:20:47 <Wolf01> Maybe is better 11:21:13 <andythenorth> https://sites.google.com/site/mininginfosite/miner-s-toolbox/materials-handling/truck-haulage/haul-road-design-guidelines 11:22:37 <andythenorth> the local milk truck is not allowed on a haul road 11:23:40 <andythenorth> 300t trucks doing 45mph don’t mix with small types 11:26:29 <andythenorth> http://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/No-Driving-Zone-mod.jpg 11:27:52 <Wolf01> Totally truck's fault, it's always truck's fault 11:27:59 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 11:29:38 <lorran78> re :) 11:32:06 <lorran78> i can't find all downloaded grf from inside ottd :/ 11:42:39 *** lorran78_ has joined #openttd 11:43:15 <lorran78> found ! 11:43:40 <lorran78> i am now sure that i test my grf and the first train is always in 1925 11:43:48 <lorran78> what have i done wrong? 11:49:39 <lorran78> i tested 1935 for the kirby but it's same windows first vehicule in 1925... 11:49:57 <lorran78> my command should work or not in the pnml? 11:58:15 <Alberth> pnml is collected into nml 11:58:19 <Alberth> open the nml file to check 11:58:48 <Alberth> I'd say the change is not working, something else is needed 11:59:12 <Alberth> unfortunately, I have no idea what, you need someone that understand newgrfs and/or nml better 11:59:33 <lorran78> hum okay :) 11:59:39 <lorran78> suppose noone here can help? 11:59:52 <andythenorth> there will be an nml file somewhere 11:59:56 <andythenorth> compiled from the pnml 12:00:06 <andythenorth> open that, and search for ‘1935’ 12:00:44 <lorran78> if i have good memory alberth told me that there was no "introduction_date" in the pnml 12:00:49 <lorran78> it must be added 12:00:53 <lorran78> so i can't find it 12:00:54 <andythenorth> plausible 12:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: you need to install all of MinGW, not just "make"... 12:01:23 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 12:01:33 <lorran78> hum? all? 12:01:49 <lorran78> i checked base for mingw and msys base too 12:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you need the compiler 12:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> or at least the preprocessor of the compiler 12:02:21 <lorran78> ok then i check what? 12:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and it must be in your path 12:02:58 <andythenorth> quak 12:03:50 <lorran78> i put all in path 12:03:53 <lorran78> like explain here : 12:04:03 <lorran78> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Setting_up_a_Windows_compile_environment 12:06:49 <lorran78> eddi ? 12:07:00 <lorran78> i must check all in mingw then? 12:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: no, it's probably not in your PATH 12:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> check at the end of that page under "common errors" 12:09:34 <frosch123> moin 12:12:27 <lorran78> i am reading and reading and i don't see what is wrong :/ 12:15:34 <lorran78> i think the cc command is the problem 12:15:45 <lorran78> if i delete the nml it is missing 12:16:42 <lorran78> what line must i change to use gcc and not cc? 12:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> what happens when you type "gcc -v" at the bash prompt? 12:21:16 <lorran78> i test 12:21:26 <lorran78> work good 12:22:16 <lorran78> should i let the pnml which is not in src folder? 12:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you type "cc -v"? 12:22:49 <lorran78> not found 12:23:20 <Eddi|zuHause> then try "CC=gcc make" 12:23:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: if you want less crap test grf http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8240/road-hog.tar 12:23:43 <andythenorth> currently splits trams / electric trams 12:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (note that capital C are important) 12:23:53 <andythenorth> although that might need rethinking w.r.t label and name 12:24:07 <lorran78> in dos prompt? 12:24:22 <lorran78> not possible "CC=gcc make" 12:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no, in bash 12:24:33 <lorran78> oh 12:24:58 <lorran78> launch waiting :p 12:30:25 <lorran78> i have new nml ! 12:30:32 <lorran78> i test if it's ok :p 12:31:23 <lorran78> strange mine is smaller with all my new commands :) 12:31:37 <lorran78> i launch make --makefile makefile now for the grf 12:33:45 <lorran78> works !!!!!!!!!!!!! 12:34:19 <lorran78> i must use bash to use gcc when cc is usefull? 12:37:37 <lorran78> i had questions 12:37:51 <lorran78> is there a size limit for the cities? 12:38:55 <Alberth> all tiles of the map? 12:39:20 <lorran78> and is there a way to build non destructible buildings (i don't really want to use cheat code to destroy industries) 12:39:24 <lorran78> maybe? :) 12:40:52 <Alberth> I don't understand how "build" and "destroy" can be combined like that :) 12:40:59 <lorran78> lol 12:41:27 <lorran78> build transmiter (i think it's the name in english version) 12:41:42 <lorran78> or lighthouse 12:41:49 <Alberth> at least in the scenario editor 12:41:55 <Alberth> in-game, I don't know 12:41:59 <lorran78> okay :) 12:42:09 <Alberth> but you can build objects if you load an object grf 12:42:33 <lorran78> and i found a grf to modify industries mechanic 12:42:39 <lorran78> but it doesn't work :/ 12:42:56 <lorran78> Modify_industries.grf 12:43:05 <Alberth> never heard of it 12:43:09 <lorran78> it does nothing 12:43:16 <lorran78> hum ok 12:43:18 <Alberth> unlikely :p 12:44:08 <Alberth> there is FIRS, ECS, and Yeti as alternative industry sets 12:44:31 <andythenorth> and manual industries, SPI, and Oz Industries 12:44:38 <andythenorth> and PBI 12:44:41 <Alberth> and opengfx+industries 12:44:54 <andythenorth> wow, industry sets we have :D 12:44:59 <andythenorth> canadian industries also :P 12:46:44 <andythenorth> “Haul Road” or “Heavy Haul Road”? 12:46:58 <andythenorth> the shorter one is used IRL, but longer more obvious to player? 12:50:10 <Wolf01> Remind me to spin off you grf :) 12:51:47 <andythenorth> ho NRT types show in main toolbar menu even if no vehicles :) 12:54:33 <Wolf01> We know 12:54:57 <Wolf01> I should fix that, report a bug XD 12:56:09 <andythenorth> if we tell players where the RATT build is, and where the bug tracker is 12:56:14 <andythenorth> we can avoid that work :P :) 12:57:08 * andythenorth thinks santa claus might bring a forum post 13:00:21 <Wolf01> I'm not sure about that 13:01:29 <Wolf01> I don't want suddenly people trying to make grfs with no specs and then blame us because something changed 13:03:11 <frosch123> yay, regression no longer crashes. but there is still a different result for some bridge construction 13:04:22 <Wolf01> frosch123, about the default tram, shouldn't we hardcode 2 different trams, one w/o catenary and one with? 13:04:48 <frosch123> plausible 13:05:17 <frosch123> same for road then? 13:05:28 <frosch123> ROAD ELRD TRAM ELTM 13:05:46 <Wolf01> I think not, we don't have ELRD currently 13:06:12 <frosch123> we also do not have TRAM then 13:06:31 <andythenorth> Wolf01: don’t tell them where the nml fork is :) 13:06:31 <Wolf01> But we have TRAM vehicles mixed with ELTM 13:06:52 <Wolf01> Like the early ELRL 13:06:54 <frosch123> default ottd has no trams at all :p 13:07:16 <frosch123> Wolf01: there is no way to fix existing grfs, so what do you try to achieve? 13:07:16 <andythenorth> if it’s TRAM and ELTM then ROAD and ELRD are entailed I think 13:07:17 <Wolf01> But we have existing grfs :P 13:07:33 <Wolf01> Eh, nothing :P 13:07:36 <andythenorth> urgh, I changed ELTM to ELTR because I kept mistyping it 13:07:44 <andythenorth> ELTRM doesn’t compile :P 13:07:56 <Wolf01> Just I find ugly to have ELTM as default 13:08:22 <Wolf01> andythenorth, label is 32 bit, 8 bits per char.. 4? 13:09:15 <frosch123> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Railtypes#Rail_type_label_.2808.29 <- it should be somewhat consistent with railtypes :) 13:10:02 <frosch123> one could also call it DFLT and ELEC 13:10:11 <frosch123> same labels for road and tram subtypes 13:10:23 <frosch123> but meh 13:11:37 <andythenorth> it’s just a reference eh :) 13:11:47 <andythenorth> whatever it is needs to be easy to type 13:11:54 * andythenorth wondered about CATT (catenary tram) 13:11:56 <andythenorth> :P 13:12:19 <frosch123> anyway, exisiting tram grfs should default to electrified tram track 13:12:35 <frosch123> people can always toggle the transparency setting if they hate catenary 13:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, electric tram should be just "TRAM" 13:13:32 <frosch123> no, that's stupid 13:13:44 <frosch123> what would non-electrified tram then be? 13:14:12 <andythenorth> UNTR 13:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, let me rephrase that... if ANYTHING should be "TRAM", then it should be electric tram 13:14:19 <andythenorth> no TRAM? o_O 13:14:36 <__ln__> what about an electrified tram that doesn't have catenary? 13:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that would be WTRM (weird tram) 13:15:35 <Wolf01> Third rail tram 13:15:38 <Wolf01> TRTM 13:16:05 <__ln__> no, not third rail 13:16:16 <__ln__> for the record, the tram in Sevilla: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5144/5742728639_e7a3e721d5_b.jpg 13:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i think there's a tram in belgium that only uses the two rails for power 13:16:28 <andythenorth> there’s one in Bordeaux that switches 13:16:34 <andythenorth> catenary / underground rail 13:16:43 <frosch123> btw. it is not required that all labels contain "RD" or "TM" 13:16:44 <Wolf01> I never paid attention, but in some cities we use that too 13:16:55 <frosch123> we already know that the labels refer to road or tram :) 13:17:29 <Wolf01> What about removing "EL*" totally and place catenary as infrastructure? (also on railroad) 13:17:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there were also some tests with induction, where you basically have the third rail underground 13:18:09 <Wolf01> Grfs might define if catenary can be built later, or not built at all, and what's the aspect 13:18:36 <frosch123> Wolf01: that fails just on the next door with 3rd rail and voltage levels and whatever stuff 13:18:43 <__ln__> the tram in Sevilla is battery-powered on a portion of its route 13:18:50 <frosch123> we already tried separate catenary, and it failed 13:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i fear that digs too dep into already existing infrastructure/UI 13:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but that doesn't need a new tracktype... 13:19:44 <frosch123> also it does not fix anything about the label problem 13:19:48 <andythenorth> that’s just ‘powered' 13:20:05 <Wolf01> I started roadtypes with that idea in mind, that was the "catenary flag" which got removed 13:20:27 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i guess not, but it needs a tram type which needs to have catenary on some parts of the route. 13:20:32 <frosch123> it merely adds another label for catenary type 13:20:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i think a flag falls short... you need new bits for catenary type and catenary trackbits 13:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: because people will want to differentiate 25kV AC, 15kV AC, 3kV DC, ... 13:21:59 <Wolf01> Yes, in my implementation the entire tile was powered regardless of bits (or better the same track bits) 13:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> (not that there are any 25kV trams) 13:23:34 * andythenorth is confused 13:23:36 <__ln__> (are you sure?) 13:23:44 <andythenorth> we just need two labels eh? :D 13:23:51 <frosch123> yep :) 13:23:58 <andythenorth> steam trams look silly with catenary up 13:24:59 <lorran78> anyway thx for help i am happy because it works :p 13:24:59 <Wolf01> Also steam trains running on elrails 13:25:30 <__ln__> http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/sheffield-rotherham-tram-train-pilot-south-yorkshire/sheffield-rotherham-tram-train-pilot-south-yorkshire2.html 13:26:52 <andythenorth> frosch123: it’s light rail eh? Can I just use ‘RAIL’ and ‘ELRL’? :) :P 13:27:28 <frosch123> i like that :) 13:28:21 <Wolf01> At least until you start making road+rail grfs 13:28:28 <andythenorth> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RailtypeLabels 13:28:34 <Wolf01> If that's will even be possible 13:28:41 <andythenorth> then that whole tedious bunfight about labels is mostly done already 13:28:49 <andythenorth> and nobody has to ‘quit the community’ over labels :P 13:28:53 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 13:29:42 <frosch123> most labels abbreviate "RAIL" with "R", which also works for "ROAD" :) 13:30:11 <andythenorth> 'narrow gauge road’ 13:30:22 <frosch123> happens a lot 13:30:32 <frosch123> not navigateable by articulated vehicles 13:31:33 <Wolf01> I'm still expecting canalroad/wetroad 13:32:05 <andythenorth> electric canal 13:32:25 <andythenorth> ho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_inclined_plane 13:32:29 <frosch123> canal is cominable with overhead-tram 13:36:35 *** Progman has quit IRC 13:37:00 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 13:37:36 <Wolf01> Ha! 13:38:26 <andythenorth> so I should change RH to use RAIL and ELRL eh? 13:39:01 <frosch123> ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL ? 13:39:36 <andythenorth> +1 13:51:59 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 14:25:50 <Wolf01> I've been staring at VS for 1 hour... 14:26:24 <frosch123> maybe listen to AS for the next hour then 14:27:03 <V453000> ASS 14:28:25 <Wolf01> Time to do somethinh, like fixing non-drive-through roadstops or disabling building menu if no vehicle has been found 14:28:44 <frosch123> pull before you do that 14:29:08 <frosch123> i think i did both :p 14:29:14 <Wolf01> Lol 14:31:16 <Wolf01> Ok, there's still this one: https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/issues/15 14:32:00 <Wolf01> Missing a diagdir somewhere 14:32:14 <frosch123> you need to check the command callback for that 14:32:29 <frosch123> it likely extracts the direction from p1 and p2, which got changed 14:35:50 <Wolf01> Let's try changing a random 6 to a 3 14:36:25 <Wolf01> Seem to work 14:51:38 *** Gja has joined #openttd 14:53:14 <andythenorth> so eh 14:53:31 <andythenorth> how do I make some vehicles compatible to both ROAD and HAUL? 14:53:35 <Wolf01> Mmmh, why I can't merge from ratt? It says it's already up to date... how it can be? 14:53:41 <andythenorth> I have to define a third type, which provides the compatibility? 14:54:02 <Wolf01> Or define HAUL as compatible with road? 14:54:22 <frosch123> it depends whether all HAUL vehicles are compatible, or just one 14:54:27 <Wolf01> But you don't want milk delivery trucks to run on it 14:54:32 <andythenorth> HAUL vehicles are HAUL only 14:54:39 <andythenorth> ROAD vehicles are ROAD only 14:54:44 <andythenorth> but Supplies Trucks can go on both 14:55:00 <frosch123> OFFR then 14:55:26 <andythenorth> ok, and I don’t need to define that as an actual type? 14:55:34 <andythenorth> just put it in the relevant compatibility props? 14:55:50 <Wolf01> I'm still of the idea ROAD vehs are compatible with all types (mainly for compatibility), maybe not for wetroads 14:56:26 <andythenorth> no schoolbuses on my mining road :P 14:56:38 <andythenorth> maybe I miss something, dunno 14:56:51 <Wolf01> And if I want to build a school near the mine? 14:56:53 <frosch123> i am not entirely sure :) 14:58:30 <Wolf01> Also I want roads traversable only for certain vehicles, like only buses but no freight vehicles 14:59:02 <andythenorth> I never did understand railtypes compatibility :D 14:59:06 <Wolf01> So I'll shit them on all the cities to keep trucks outside 14:59:15 <andythenorth> oh like a city truck ban? o_O 14:59:19 <Wolf01> Yes 14:59:29 * andythenorth considered something like that before 14:59:38 <andythenorth> I thought it might be too restrictive to be fun, but yeah 14:59:41 <andythenorth> no trucks in towns 14:59:45 <andythenorth> would be a thing 14:59:49 <Wolf01> I hate when 40+ trucks pile up behing a bus 15:00:00 <Wolf01> *behind 15:00:07 <andythenorth> not sure how it would be done 15:00:14 <Wolf01> Neither do I 15:00:16 <Wolf01> :D 15:00:21 <andythenorth> ideally, persuade towns to build a dedicated town roadtype :P 15:00:33 <Wolf01> With dynamite? 15:01:00 <Wolf01> Most of my towns don't even own their roads :P 15:01:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 15:01:31 <frosch123> so that would enforce servicing shops and bank by helicopter? 15:02:31 <Wolf01> Maybe you can just leave *some* roads to be used 15:02:40 <Wolf01> But not every single road 15:03:45 <andythenorth> exception for town trucks 15:04:01 <Wolf01> Define town trucks 15:04:17 <andythenorth> mail, armoured, food, building materials, goods, beer 15:04:22 <andythenorth> :P 15:04:49 <Wolf01> Eh.. and if I make a goods truck with a 300t one? 15:05:13 <Wolf01> Max speed 12kmh 15:05:29 <Wolf01> Threaded 15:07:10 <Wolf01> The problem might be when an industry near the town will be eaten as the town grows, but since it's you which make "no-truck" roads, it's your fault if you wall in the industry 15:08:32 <Wolf01> I would give a look on 4 lanes roads, sure it will break all the graphics and might need transition tiles for other roadtypes 15:11:06 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 15:12:40 <Wolf01> Ok, synced the convert-road branch 15:12:43 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 15:12:55 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 15:13:44 <andythenorth> compatibility breaks my brain 15:13:54 <andythenorth> I’m sure Eddi explained to me once that it isn’t possible 15:17:06 <Wolf01> Yes, I know -> TODO: check for roadtype compatibility 15:18:21 <andythenorth> I have NFI how to have a vehicle that can go on multiple labels 15:18:26 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 15:18:33 <andythenorth> as vehicle compatibility is defined by the type, not by the vehicle 15:18:53 <andythenorth> so I have to define some ‘universal’ road or something 15:21:34 <Wolf01> frosch123, did you remove the "compatible_roadtypes" variable? 15:22:08 <Wolf01> I mean from RoadTypeInfo 15:23:07 <andythenorth> uses powered instead 15:23:26 <andythenorth> they’re synonymous for RVs as there are no unpowered wagons 15:24:24 <Wolf01> So I only check if the new roadtype will be powered? 15:25:01 <Wolf01> Unpow->pow yes; pow->pow yes; pow->unpow no 15:25:22 <Wolf01> Third-rail -> catenary? 15:25:32 <Wolf01> Or the contrary 15:35:20 <andythenorth> dunno :) 15:35:24 <andythenorth> don’t understand :) 15:36:18 <andythenorth> the railtypes compatibility spec is…'interesting' 15:36:36 <andythenorth> it looks like something that was designed by very clever people 15:37:02 <andythenorth> I wish they were still around to explain it to us :) 15:38:22 <andythenorth> peter1139: how do railtypes work then? o_O 15:47:57 <frosch123> so, do we have a list of real use cases? 15:48:14 <frosch123> i only read about use-cases which have some corner case where it does not work :p 15:48:58 <peter1139> hi 15:49:00 <peter1139> they don't work 15:49:10 <peter1139> tron did it 15:49:32 <peter1139> (so they do work, but only tron understands it) 15:50:00 <Wolf01> Let's hunt for tron :D 15:50:05 <andythenorth> frosch123: 1. roadtype specifying no other compatible types [works] 15:50:36 <andythenorth> 2. roadtype specifying some other compatible types [so RAIL trams work on ELRL, for example] [works] 15:51:35 <andythenorth> 3. vehicle that is mutually compatible between otherwise incompatible type [can’t see how to do that] 15:51:59 <peter1139> andythenorth, iirc the compatibility stuff works backward to how you'd expect 15:52:03 <andythenorth> ass backward 15:52:12 <peter1139> i certainly remember getting confused when dealing with it 15:52:30 <andythenorth> it’s built for rocket scientists 15:52:41 <andythenorth> the railtype specificies the behaviour of the vehicles 15:52:48 <andythenorth> which is super logical, but just not intuitive 15:53:34 <Wolf01> Btw... I'm now able to convert: 1. *->red; 2. [normal, yellow]->blue; 3. *->yellow... no [*]->normal 15:55:23 <Wolf01> I think some road was defined as electric even if it doesn't have the catenary 15:55:30 <Wolf01> Or I might have switched the checks 15:56:30 <andythenorth> I’m 99% certain that case 3 (vehicles compatible between 2 otherwise incompatible types) can’t be done 15:56:35 *** tokai has quit IRC 15:56:45 <andythenorth> I’m sure Eddi|zuHause explained that it’s why we can’t have mixed gauge trains 15:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> we can have mixed gauge trains if you define a mixed gauge railtype 15:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> the railtype says which vehicles it's compatible with, not the vehicle says which railtypes it's compatible with 15:58:55 <Wolf01> Ok, switching the checks, *->road, [yellow, red]->blue, [blue, red]->yellow, yellow->red 15:59:36 <Wolf01> So it was better before 16:00:44 *** tokai has joined #openttd 16:00:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 16:01:01 <andythenorth> so how would I define a vehicle compatible with HAUL and ROAD? 16:01:10 <andythenorth> when HAUL and ROAD are not compatible 16:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't. either you make HAUL compatible with ROAD (one way or the other) or you define a mixed type... 16:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> a vehicle only has exactly one roadtype. the roadtypes then discuss amongst themselves whether to allow that vehicle on them, based on that one type. 16:03:58 <andythenorth> yup 16:04:05 <andythenorth> ok so that is what it is 16:04:10 <andythenorth> I’ll stop trying to implement it 16:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what would occasionally be useful is that two articulated parts could have different POWERED type 16:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (not COMPATIBLE) 16:05:39 <Wolf01> Not our case 16:06:12 <Wolf01> At least if someone finds a way to make a trolleybus with a diesel engine too 16:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so you could make like electric/diesel hybrid vehicles, or something 16:06:22 <Wolf01> *articulated trolleybus 16:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> currently articulated parts must have the exact same type 16:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> (or it's actually ignored, not sure) 16:14:10 *** tokai has quit IRC 16:16:20 <peter1139> iirc power is ignored for articulated parts 16:23:52 <andythenorth> it is for RVs definitely 16:24:49 *** maciozo has joined #openttd 16:27:14 <andythenorth> so I need two kinds of supplies truck, and transfers 16:29:25 <andythenorth> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/52/2d/c9/522dc912656dc65801fa41c7c8f06289.jpg 16:30:38 <frosch123> i think in your case i would use ROAD, OFFR, HAUL 16:31:00 <frosch123> ROAD is normal road, OFFR is trails, HAUL is specifically designed for heavy vehicles 16:31:32 <frosch123> OFFR vehicles can drive on all three 16:31:38 <frosch123> ROAD and HAUL vehicles can only drive on themself 16:31:53 <andythenorth> works, but puts a type in the build menu I don’t otherwise need or want :) 16:32:17 <andythenorth> I think the solution is to drop the idea of multi-compatible supplies trucks 16:32:19 <frosch123> i thought trails were the main usecase :p 16:32:28 <andythenorth> in 2008 :) 16:32:45 <andythenorth> ‘now we have experience’ :P 16:32:59 <frosch123> anyway, i am not sure how the introduction works yet 16:33:21 <frosch123> can a rv be available without the tracktype being available yet? 16:34:17 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> works, but puts a type in the build menu I don’t otherwise need or want :) <- only if you define a roadtype grf, not with just vehicles... btw, if you load a vehicle grf with no specific roadtype defined, what could happen? Defaults to ROAD? 16:34:49 <andythenorth> defaults to ROAD 16:34:54 <andythenorth> that’s tested in Road Hog 16:35:46 <andythenorth> if I wanted an OFFR type, I’d have to define a buildable OFFR type, simply adding a label to table + vehicles doesn’t work 16:36:21 <andythenorth> powered (compatibility) list is for a different thing, so that’s no use 16:36:27 <andythenorth> and fallback is for a different thing also 16:36:54 <andythenorth> this use case is not essential, and I worry it’s a bit of a misleading rabbit hole :) 16:37:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: from docs I can’t understand which has priority, vehicle introduction or tracktype introduction 16:38:27 <frosch123> i would also have to read railtype docs :) 16:38:54 <frosch123> and then probably create a chart like https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/File:CargoMagic12flag5cleared.dot.png 16:40:28 <andythenorth> burn it all with fire :) 16:42:49 <frosch123> anyway, you can now have separate (global) hotkeys for building tram 16:42:54 *** Biolunar_ has quit IRC 16:43:01 <andythenorth> yay 16:43:12 <andythenorth> that is more important than it might sound 16:43:40 * andythenorth needs some haul road sprites 16:43:53 <frosch123> isn't it just grey stone? 16:45:25 <andythenorth> American Roads dirt roads will do 16:45:29 <andythenorth> for now 16:45:44 <andythenorth> I think ‘not brown’ is probably better in a future version 16:46:07 <andythenorth> oh, they’re all integrated with the terrain :P 16:46:08 <andythenorth> oops 16:46:25 <andythenorth> I’ll draw soem 16:47:13 <Wolf01> Also pedestrian roads would be cool, they should disable any other feature than building road :P 16:48:22 *** tokai has joined #openttd 16:48:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 16:49:01 <frosch123> Wolf01: you can do that with the oneway stuff 16:49:06 <frosch123> it also allows noway 16:49:12 <Wolf01> But it's ugly 16:50:02 <Wolf01> http://www.constructionphotography.com/ImageThumbs/A052-00870/3/A052-00870_Pedestrian_road_and_bench.jpg <- I mean something like this 16:53:29 <andythenorth> objects? 16:54:31 <Wolf01> I'll do pedestrians as vehicles 16:54:51 <andythenorth> I wondered :) 16:54:52 <andythenorth> capacity? 16:54:54 <Wolf01> Which could use any other road and transport 1 goods 16:54:59 <Wolf01> Or 1 food 16:55:20 <Wolf01> Not 2 because the other hand is bus with the smartphone 16:55:28 <Wolf01> *busy 16:56:20 <Wolf01> Pedestrian which can carry pax would be too weird :D 16:57:49 <andythenorth> so trams without catenary eh 16:58:01 <andythenorth> I will need some more sprites 17:06:26 *** Fatmice has quit IRC 17:09:27 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 17:15:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 17:29:40 <andythenorth> do we need a disable_[types] list? 17:29:49 <andythenorth> oh nvm 17:29:55 * andythenorth being stupid 17:45:28 <andythenorth> frosch123, Wolf01 http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8242/road-hog.tar 17:45:46 <andythenorth> updated, adds a second road type and some vehicles for it 17:45:55 <andythenorth> also corrected some strings, and changed some labels 17:51:09 <Wolf01> Trying 17:58:00 <Wolf01> Btw, it's not clear you have to bridge/tunnel a ROAD to cross it with the HAUL one 17:58:35 <Wolf01> Building roadbits on ROAD when building HAUL should be forbidden 17:59:44 <andythenorth> do we need to do that in newgrf, or in ottd? 17:59:50 <frosch123> ottd 17:59:59 * andythenorth wonders how much more nml patching is left 18:00:10 <andythenorth> I haven’t tested the callbacks (haven’t even looked at them) :P 18:00:12 <frosch123> when adding roadbits with a different type, it needs to pick the more-compatible roadtype, or reject it completely 18:00:14 <frosch123> as for ail 18:00:32 <frosch123> rail + elrail -> elrail, elrail + rail -> elrail, rail + mono -> reject 18:00:45 <andythenorth> ok 18:00:52 * andythenorth wonders if nml needs tests adding for these types 18:01:07 <frosch123> nml needs to learn some more roadtypeflags, otherwise it is done 18:01:38 <andythenorth> the railtype test (008) is pretty sparse eh? 18:01:38 <frosch123> the yellow/red stuff is already good 18:02:01 <andythenorth> once nml is done, we could merge the fork? 18:02:12 <andythenorth> currently I’ve broken the jenkins build of RH, as it needs forked nml 18:02:16 <frosch123> it needs some review 18:02:19 <andythenorth> yup 18:02:20 <frosch123> same for ottd 18:02:33 <frosch123> every now and then there is a mixup of basetype and subtype 18:02:35 <frosch123> or some negation 18:02:50 <frosch123> many of the fixes are actually adding or removing "!" 18:03:48 <frosch123> also i am a fan of vcs history that tells you something more than trial and error :) 18:05:02 *** slaca has joined #openttd 18:05:37 <andythenorth> wouldn’t we just bin the current commits, and make a new set of patches for nml? 18:05:47 <andythenorth> seems cleaner 18:05:48 <frosch123> yep 18:06:39 <andythenorth> got Road Vehicle twice http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8245/nrt-replace.png :) 18:07:59 <andythenorth> don’t _think_ that’s in the grf 18:08:05 <andythenorth> afaict 18:08:19 <frosch123> you likely forgot to set a name 18:08:22 <frosch123> so it took the default 18:08:32 <andythenorth> I’ve only defined one roadtype 18:08:39 <andythenorth> the Heavy Haul Road 18:08:48 <andythenorth> and two tramtypes 18:09:23 * andythenorth experiments 18:18:39 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 18:21:25 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:21:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:27:27 *** Progman has joined #openttd 18:38:00 *** maciozo has quit IRC 18:42:29 *** Progman_ has joined #openttd 18:43:24 *** Progman has quit IRC 18:43:26 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 18:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27698 /trunk/src/lang (russian.txt spanish.txt) (2016-12-18 19:45:38 +0100 ) 18:45:46 <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints: 18:45:47 <DorpsGek> spanish: 3 changes by SilverSurferZzZ 18:45:48 <DorpsGek> russian: 3 changes by Lone_Wolf 18:55:08 <_dp_> hi! can a newgrf disable railtypes in other grf? 18:57:18 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 18:58:47 *** umgeher_ has joined #openttd 19:02:24 *** umgeher has quit IRC 19:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can only disable the other grf 19:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a total dick move, btw. 19:13:56 <_dp_> My only objective is to configure server the way I want it, so I have an easier way of disabling grfs 19:14:28 <Wolf01> Check if the other grf has parameters 19:15:01 <_dp_> It has one, but it's not the one I want :( 19:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> best way to configure server grfs is to upload a savegame which you set up and checked locally 19:16:32 <_dp_> then I won't be able to generate more games with same settings 19:16:42 <_dp_> besides I can't even do it locally 19:22:14 <Wolf01> I usually configure the server locally then upload the config, so I can generate new games 19:24:29 <_dp_> I have a nice web interface for configuring servers 19:24:43 <Wolf01> I don't 19:24:49 <_dp_> Sadly it just seems impossible to do what I want in any way 19:46:52 *** slaca has quit IRC 19:49:28 *** Gja has quit IRC 19:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you can save the savegame's newgrf config as a preset, to use in other games 19:55:34 <_dp_> whatever, I know how to configure servers :p 19:56:02 <_dp_> I don't know how to disable railtypes :( 19:56:32 <Wolf01> You can't 19:56:43 <_dp_> I can even disable engines, but it won't help here because nuts have universal engines 19:57:41 <Wolf01> Maybe if you just say what you want exactly someone could work it out... 19:58:21 <_dp_> exactly I want to disable normal rail types in nuts and leave only purr rails) 19:58:39 <Wolf01> V453000, ping 19:59:40 <_dp_> In general though I want to create some cool christmas setup and that was just one of ideas for it... 20:09:14 <V453000> `wat 20:09:41 <Wolf01> Read last lines 20:09:46 <V453000> disable railtypes, why? 20:09:58 <V453000> running out of IDs? 20:10:13 <Wolf01> Because "why not?" 20:11:56 <_dp_> several reasons 20:12:25 <V453000> nuts will definitely get at least one more update eventually 20:12:31 <_dp_> most important one is that I don't undestand why are they even there) 20:12:36 <V453000> so if you give me reasons I might consider them 20:12:56 <_dp_> and they are cheaper so you have to use them for start and then go through all the hassle of replacing them 20:13:00 <V453000> well having an universal rail is generally useful 20:13:19 <V453000> having colours is just nice 20:13:20 <_dp_> also they use different background in my setup for some reason 20:13:28 <V453000> and can be interesting for specific setups 20:13:39 <V453000> different background? 20:13:55 *** maciozo has joined #openttd 20:14:00 <_dp_> yeah, wait a sec I'll set it up on a server 20:17:37 * andythenorth wonders how FIRS works 20:19:44 <_dp_> V453000, check citymania test server 20:20:00 <_dp_> normal raitypes use default climate ground 20:20:18 <_dp_> while purr ones use grf background (that I want) 20:20:47 <V453000> sounds like non nuts issue but let's see 20:21:22 <_dp_> mb but still 20:21:38 <_dp_> in fact I may even be able to fix it by changing some sprites 20:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: i think your best approach here is to modify the grf to your needs, and then get permission to distribute it 20:51:47 *** tokai has quit IRC 20:52:13 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, mb... but I still hope there is smth better) 20:52:41 * andythenorth deletes things 20:52:50 *** tokai has joined #openttd 20:52:51 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 20:53:32 <_dp_> for now I'm stuck on installing nmlc though :( 20:55:15 <_dp_> best I got so far is that in installs fine and then can't find ply 20:55:24 <_dp_> which I think I have for all possible python versions 20:55:37 <andythenorth> what OS? 20:55:44 <_dp_> linux 20:55:55 <andythenorth> using pip? 20:56:00 <_dp_> yes 20:56:04 <andythenorth> hmm 20:56:17 <andythenorth> got a virtualenv? 20:56:37 <_dp_> or mb not, I think I installed in with setup.py 20:56:56 <_dp_> pip failed on egg with some weird error 20:57:08 <andythenorth> frigging python packaging :) 20:57:21 <andythenorth> substitute [python] for any other popular language also 20:57:35 <_dp_> virtualenv didn't work either 20:57:53 <andythenorth> FWIW, I use a virtualenv (for isolation of the rest of my system from localised setuptools crap) 20:58:03 <andythenorth> and then I pip install ply for python 3.2 20:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't you use pillow nowadays? 20:58:24 <andythenorth> I am not going to remove it and test it though, as setuptools are flakey 20:58:27 <andythenorth> ply is the lexer 20:59:23 <andythenorth> _dp_: could always do a manual install :( https://pypi.python.org/pypi/ply 20:59:48 <_dp_> nvm, just installed it in virtualenv 21:00:16 *** mikegrb_ is now known as mikegrb 21:00:16 <_dp_> first time I tried have some files created under root so was getting permission errors 21:00:41 <andythenorth> I always use virtualenv, it just prevents installs for one project crapping all over another project 21:01:39 <_dp_> yeah, I'm usually using it too, just got confused when it suddenly required root permissions 21:01:42 <andythenorth> ach are dates a word or dword? :P 21:01:46 <andythenorth> (in ottd) 21:02:31 * andythenorth doing text stack stuff again 21:02:41 *** kais58 has quit IRC 21:03:46 * _dp_ "hello world" time 21:05:29 <lorran78> rehello :p 21:06:17 <lorran78> i wanted to know if industries can pop on a object item other than original item (transmiter and lighthouse) 21:10:43 <andythenorth> ?? 21:10:45 <andythenorth> :) 21:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: surely the wiki knows that... 21:13:39 <andythenorth> yeah 21:19:08 <peter1139> hmm, odd 21:19:13 <peter1139> my multistop docks works 21:19:26 <peter1139> must be an edge-case issue which i don't remember 21:22:11 <andythenorth> you couldn’t figure out how/where to make ships wait? 21:22:36 <andythenorth> afaik, it was ‘mostly done’ but something boring needed doing 21:22:47 <andythenorth> and boring is boring 21:24:01 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:28:13 <__ln__> so... if one of the german states decided to declare independence, what would happen? 21:31:28 *** Alberth has left #openttd 21:36:05 <peter1139> nah it had path finding issues 21:36:08 <peter1139> but i don't remember what 21:36:46 <peter1139> possibly something to do with the dock tile not actually be traversible 21:39:53 <andythenorth> multistop docks would be…better 21:40:01 <andythenorth> or at least different 21:40:12 <peter1139> they solve some issues 21:40:26 <peter1139> i wasn't intending on making ships solid at any point though 21:40:44 <andythenorth> nah 21:40:46 <andythenorth> not needed 21:41:28 *** kais58 has joined #openttd 21:41:59 <andythenorth> pathfinding nightmare, they’d always be trying to avoid each other on :P 21:55:09 * Wolf01 hands andythenorth a cookie 21:55:42 <andythenorth> is a commit? o_O 21:55:57 <Wolf01> No, german cookies from lidl 21:56:02 <Wolf01> They are good 21:56:03 <Wolf01> :P 21:56:26 <peter1139> lebkurchen eh 21:56:48 <Wolf01> Captain Rondo 21:58:32 <Wolf01> The vanilla ones are pure drugs, I ate 8 before punching myself and hide the packet 21:59:01 <__ln__> i don't recall such brand 21:59:22 <Wolf01> There's a pirate girl on the packet 22:00:01 <__ln__> gotta look next time i shop at lidl 22:00:13 * andythenorth must bed 22:00:15 <andythenorth> bye 22:00:16 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 22:01:25 <Wolf01> http://static.openfoodfacts.org/images/products/20627096/front_fr.19.full.jpg 22:01:54 *** gelignite has quit IRC 22:02:20 <__ln__> probably too tasty to import to finland 22:07:08 <Wolf01> They'll keep you at diet? 22:07:17 <_dp_> can I replace one base sprite with other base sprite in newgrf?) 22:07:31 <_dp_> like put snow instead of grass 22:07:39 <V453000> _dp_: yes 22:07:53 <V453000> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/brix/repository/changes/BRIX.nml 22:07:59 <V453000> replaces base tiles 22:08:04 <__ln__> can't even buy lipton ice tea or nestea pratically anywhere here :/ 22:09:39 <Wolf01> :( 22:10:07 <Wolf01> I'll bring you some crates if I'll come here 22:10:10 <_dp_> V453000, yeah, but you're replacing them with custom ones 22:10:25 <__ln__> Wolf01: thanks in advance 22:10:38 <_dp_> V453000, and I don't want to make custom spritesheet, just use another sprite from the game 22:11:19 <V453000> hm 22:11:27 <V453000> not sure how would one go about that 22:11:41 <V453000> but why would you utterly break the rails to show as landscape_ 22:14:08 <_dp_> break rails? dunno, for now I'm just trying to replace grass) 22:14:25 <_dp_> like toyland temperate replacement does, but it uses custom sprites 22:17:41 <_dp_> V453000, btw, about railtypes, can I override NUTS engines from other grf and replace allowed railtypes to disable them on normal rails? 22:20:27 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: maybe look at how alpinew.grf replaces the arctic grass with temperate grass? 22:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: it may be more involved than you think to find all the instances, though... 22:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: and yes, you can change the properties of vehicles from other grfs, if you set the flag that your grf is an addon to that other grf 22:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Overriding_vehicles_in_other_NewGRFs 22:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> note that you can't override callbacks and stuff, you'd need to reimplement the whole graphics block 22:23:24 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, looks like alpinew does the same thing, at least it contains a huge spritesheet 22:23:53 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, cool, I'll try replacing them, ty 22:24:33 <V453000> I think all of nuts trains are defining important things by callbacks 22:24:34 <V453000> and stuff 22:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: the sprites are mostly snowy roofs and stuff 22:25:04 <V453000> I dont understand your problem _dp_ to be honest 22:25:26 <V453000> you have broken terrain/rails and instead of overriding the rails with railtypes, you are trying to fuck up the rest 22:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. i suppose it actually does copy the original sprites 22:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and not reuse the base sprites 22:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there might actually be a way, but probably it'd need to be a bit more hacky 22:27:11 <Lejving> V453000, I can't msg you 22:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> _dp_: well, i guess at this point you might just need to make it properly, making a railtype and using the underlay 22:27:17 <Lejving> +g 22:27:25 <V453000> oh 22:27:26 <V453000> wtf 22:27:33 <V453000> how do I do -g then "D 22:27:34 <V453000> :D 22:27:38 <Lejving> :D 22:27:41 <Wolf01> :D 22:27:48 <V453000> or join channel #V453000 22:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> /mode nick -g? 22:28:17 <_dp_> V453000, I'm just trying various ideas, not specifically solving that bg problem 22:28:28 <V453000> xd 22:29:22 <_dp_> V453000, for example, I like some ideas in NUTS and graphics, but there is too much redundant stuff imo, would be nice to simplify it 22:29:41 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:30:32 <V453000> I agree, I plan another train set 22:30:42 <V453000> if you make a fork, I won't hate it probably :) 22:33:12 <_dp_> I'd like to find some better ways of customizing grf than just forking them left and right) 22:34:30 <_dp_> besides, I can't even clone nuts repo, is it ridiculously large? 22:39:04 <_dp_> rofl, run out of disk space cloning it 22:39:12 <V453000> XD 22:40:53 <Wolf01> "And just to be sure he can be the only one to edit it, he set up a raid 5 with 4TB hard disks" 23:00:37 *** JezK_ has joined #openttd 23:03:50 *** CompuDesktop is now known as Compu 23:04:11 *** Compu has joined #openttd 23:09:06 *** BluesInTheNet has quit IRC 23:17:24 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 23:17:35 <_dp_> what happens when two newgrfs define same rail type? 23:18:26 <_dp_> with different compatible railtypes 23:21:01 <lorran78> i am testing if industries are created on objects but 10 years passed and no new lol 23:21:07 <lorran78> even with normal tile 23:21:29 <lorran78> what are the conditions to make creation of new indust? 23:22:09 <lorran78> oh sorry new indust :p 23:22:39 <_dp_> lorran78, you mean for them to spawn naturally? 23:24:02 <_dp_> lorran78, it tries to maintain certain industry density, so there wouldn't be much spawns unless some idustries start to close 23:24:16 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has quit IRC 23:24:49 <_dp_> lorran78, you can try to create map with low density and increase it in game, that should encourage it to spawn more I think 23:26:54 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:27:34 * _dp_ finally made a grf that actually does smth 23:28:20 <_dp_> it even kind of disabling rail by setting its price to 660k/piece) 23:35:58 <lorran78> yes i made map with no indust just one city 23:36:07 <lorran78> just for testing this 23:39:52 <lorran78> it seems industr can't pop on objects like beach (newgrf) 23:39:55 <lorran78> but 23:40:21 <lorran78> when i create a map it's impossible to make large selection to make beach 23:40:22 <lorran78> :/ 23:40:34 <lorran78> i must do tile by tile 23:41:11 <lorran78> :( 23:41:21 <lorran78> nope can pop on beach :( 23:54:48 <lorran78> but it seems indust can't pop on non-plane surface :)