Log for #openttd on 6th January 2017:
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01:46:06  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you mean by "the economy" and "recover"
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09:23:20  <Wolf01> o/
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11:20:20  <Wolf01> Quak
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11:22:12  <frosch123> hoi
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14:26:32  <supermop> snow today
14:26:57  <Wolf01> Sunny here, really clear sky
14:27:37  <Wolf01> Snow maybe tomorrow, or sunday
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14:31:37  <supermop> time for snowy tram sprites
14:47:15  <Wolf01> I think I healed myself enough to try to do something
14:48:29  <Wolf01> I have been able to play for a massive 1:45 hours today before fainting
14:58:02  <supermop> ???
14:58:31  <Wolf01> Flu
15:00:43  <supermop> ouch
15:11:45  <Wolf01> frosch123, are you working on something?
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15:13:57  <frosch123> no, i am waiting on people to use the shit :)
15:14:35  <Wolf01> :)
15:14:40  <Wolf01> o/ Alberth
15:15:41  <Alberth> o/
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15:30:11  <supermop> so many good sheds in firs
15:32:42  <Wolf01> Meh, they dropped minecraft for windows phones... no more updates
15:33:36  *** Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
15:33:53  <Rubidium> Windows phone? Is that still a thing?
15:34:07  <Wolf01> Some people still use it
15:34:37  <Wolf01> For example I won't switch to android or iphone for any reason
15:35:02  <Alberth> not for minecraft updates? :p
15:35:12  <Wolf01> Nah, I play on pc
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15:36:05  <Wolf01> But since I purchased it again on the phone to play when far from home I would have liked some more support
15:36:48  <Wolf01> I still could play on tablet
15:37:20  <Wolf01> Maybe not the same performance, but biggest screen
15:37:32  <Alberth> that counts too :)
15:37:54  <V453000> SIZE MATTERS
15:39:04  <Wolf01> ANUS
15:40:12  <Wolf01> Is FFF?
15:40:29  <Wolf01> Not yet
15:40:41  <Wolf01> Write it, quick!
15:45:45  <Wolf01> frosch123, should I publish the "no houses" branch? I'm syncing my local copy with master
15:47:57  <frosch123> sure, i guess there is nothing controversial about that one :)
15:48:15  <frosch123> but for all the other suggestions i would like to see people using stuff first
15:48:59  <frosch123> it's rather moody to talk about towns building different road types, when there are none for players to build :p
15:49:18  <Wolf01> :D
15:54:09  <Wolf01> Playing a quick game just to be sure it doesn't assert at the firts house construction :P
15:57:00  <frosch123> build 5 bus stops, send 3 bus in a circle and fast forward :)
15:57:22  <Wolf01> Yup
16:02:18  <Alberth> press "fund new buildings"  :)
16:03:02  <Alberth> hmm, have a town road type that doesn't like houses?  :o
16:04:16  <Wolf01> Lol, self killing city
16:05:44  <Wolf01> Btw, the flag will be enabled only for tramways by default, grfs may change it as they want
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16:48:11  <Wolf01> I noticed there's only one problem with that patch, the flag is only useful for ROAD
16:48:49  <Wolf01> Tramways are already ignored by the game as houses won't be built along them
16:58:44  <frosch123> same applies to drive-in stops :)
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17:01:36  <Wolf01> Having a feature working on only half of the spec is a bad feature imho :/
17:02:28  <Wolf01> Also I noticed a nice thing, when loading a game all vehicles lose power :P
17:02:30  <frosch123> i am more worried about electrified road + non-electrified tram
17:02:37  <supermop> is there an example nml code for writing a road newgrf?
17:02:39  <frosch123> because you cannot see that the tram is not-electrified
17:02:49  <frosch123> but then, the same applies to train depots
17:02:50  <Wolf01> Yeah, that's weird
17:03:22  <frosch123> supermop:
17:03:31  <frosch123> it's in the nrt nml
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17:15:59  <Wolf01> Could I hide "convert-road" from repo?
17:19:09  <frosch123> it's merged
17:19:42  <Wolf01> Ok, removed
17:23:57  <Wolf01> Ha! :D
17:25:57  <frosch123> he, is the author in our channel?
17:26:13  <frosch123> wasn't there recently that management gui here?
17:26:32  <Wolf01> Yeah, it made me think that too
17:27:06  <Wolf01> I think the "problem" is more common than it seem
17:27:47  <frosch123> "management" is always the problem :p
17:28:37  <LordAro> Wolf01: :D
17:32:41  <frosch123> yay, i found a 62 in the code
17:32:53  <frosch123> sometimes ottd is just crap :p
17:32:57  <Wolf01> A what?
17:33:23  <frosch123> a random number that is either wrong, or does not matter
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18:16:14  <supermop> if i have 4 types of chips/isr pavement, that is easily 8 road types and 8 tram types before even adding exotic stuff like HAUL
18:17:41  <Wolf01> Do they have different features or just eyecandy?
18:17:45  <supermop> so i guess will need a param for like, do you want isr or chips style ground
18:17:58  <supermop> Wolf01: just to match station gound tiles
18:18:28  <supermop> chips mud, chips cobble, chips asphalt, and ISR
18:19:44  <supermop> wanted to add the slag-y looking ground tile from new FIRS steelmill too
18:19:44  <Wolf01> Not even max speed?
18:20:30  <supermop> realistically they would all be slower than road, as it is meant to be part of a freight yard or industrial area
18:21:00  <supermop> but maybe players want their molten metal driving at 100kmh from the blast furnace to foundry
18:21:22  <Wolf01> Make a prop to disable speed limits
18:21:35  <Wolf01> Or set speed limits like on rail sets
18:22:17  <supermop> for gameplay, or some other reason?
18:22:50  <Wolf01> Why do we have speed limits for rails?
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18:24:10  <supermop> not all rail sets have speed limits
18:24:27  <Wolf01> All the ones I tried
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18:27:40  <Wolf01> Cat
18:27:51  <Alberth> try default set :)
18:27:58  <Alberth> yo andy
18:28:27  <andythenorth> lo
18:29:23  <supermop> Wolf01: use case is for this:
18:29:38  <supermop> road or tram type to match those tiles
18:29:53  <Wolf01> +1
18:29:54  <supermop> so whole harbor looks consistent
18:29:54  <Alberth> as soon as we have more than 1 tile to stop, it becomes useful to consider speed limits
18:30:54  <supermop> Alberth: sure, but i wonder if asphalt>cobble is actually meaningfully fun
18:32:12  <supermop> FIRS metal workshop has cobble base, but if cobble is super slow, then player is penalized to choose the 'right looking' road
18:32:23  <supermop> and then why even bother using the road set at all
18:33:26  <Wolf01> I would use the best looking road even if vehicles will go backwards
18:34:11  <supermop> Wolf01: should mud/gravel/cobble/asphalt have different costs too?
18:34:33  <Wolf01> I think yes
18:34:37  <glx> mud should cost nothing :)
18:34:54  <supermop> currently, station tiles are generally all trivially cheap across newgrfs
18:35:06  <Wolf01> And should not have maintainance cost
18:35:19  <andythenorth> Wolf01: speed limits are, imho, daft
18:35:20  <supermop> so there is no huge cost to build a big eyecandy station of any type you wish
18:35:25  <andythenorth> I already have speed limits for the trains
18:35:33  <andythenorth> termite has no speed limits
18:35:46  * andythenorth back from logs :P
18:35:51  <Wolf01> I use NuTracks :P
18:36:24  <supermop> i would be fine saying, all of these 'yard roads' are 50 or 80 kmh or something, with param to disable speed limit
18:36:26  <andythenorth> I am going to fold Termite into Iron Horse
18:36:31  <andythenorth> and be damned
18:36:33  <supermop> haha
18:36:49  <supermop> andytheworstpractices
18:36:58  <andythenorth> [shrug]
18:37:28  <andythenorth> too many times I’ve followed best practice
18:37:53  <supermop> we need a station feature to alter load speed, etc based on platform type
18:38:04  <andythenorth> ‘OpenTTD cannot have port industries, it breaks the in-world cargo model'
18:38:10  <supermop> people have a hard time climbing up into the train from the mud
18:38:26  <andythenorth> ‘all fieldsets should have legends, and legends should be nested'
18:38:56  <supermop> nor to passengers enjoy being poured into the train from a tipple
18:38:59  <andythenorth> ‘use CPP, not an arcane templating language nobody else understands'
18:39:04  * andythenorth cherry-picking examples
18:39:09  <andythenorth> :P
18:41:29  <supermop> a weir object would be nice
18:41:42  <supermop> freely overbuildable by locks
18:41:51  <andythenorth> o_O
18:42:03  <andythenorth> what would be nicer is…ships going up slopes
18:42:12  <andythenorth> the rapids thing is daft
18:42:27  <supermop> those river rapids flowing into side of that port look silly
18:42:28  * andythenorth might try hacking rivers in 2017 :P
18:42:41  <andythenorth> although, if I buy a new laptop
18:42:47  <andythenorth> I won’t be hacking any more ottd at all :P
18:43:23  <supermop> andy just add 10 variants of slihtly less steep slope
18:43:46  <supermop> was playing on a PL server last night
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18:44:03  <supermop> building a lock was like half a million quid
18:44:31  <supermop> all these big wide long rivers and couldn't get my boats into them
18:45:03  <andythenorth> eh, let’s make some roads first :)
18:45:10  <supermop> also need flat docks - the terraforming cost was set so high i couldn't build any docks up on the river either
18:45:18  <andythenorth> one feature per year :)
18:46:10  <supermop> chips tile roads quickly runs out of 15 road types
18:46:27  <supermop> unless i am not thinking of something correctly
18:46:53  <supermop> 4 for road, 4 for haul, 4 for electric road?
18:47:13  <supermop> then 4 for tram and 4 for electric tram
18:47:31  <supermop> soo 12/15 and 8/15 used
18:48:32  <andythenorth> yup, you broke it :)
18:48:32  <supermop> leaves only 3 regular roads - road, E Road, and Haul
18:48:35  <andythenorth> someone had to
18:48:42  <supermop> more pls
18:50:23  <supermop> i want 600mm, 1M, standard and broad gauge tramways, plus all combinations thereof
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18:52:44  <frosch123> hmm, i think the pattern is: if there are two simliar functions, and the older one does not work, the newer one was likely added just because of that
18:53:11  <andythenorth> I have owned code like that :)
18:53:29  <supermop> chips asphalt and ISR pavement are probably the two that would be most useful to the typical player who wants to make nice stations
18:53:49  <andythenorth> it’s extra fun in monkey patches I would think
18:54:07  <supermop> but they are visually almost the same
18:54:31  <supermop> turn each type on or off by parameter?
18:54:33  <andythenorth>
18:54:42  <andythenorth> supermop: two grfs :D
18:54:59  <supermop> T_T
18:55:39  <supermop> fork firs to use ISR groundtiles throughout
18:55:57  <andythenorth> ugh
18:56:35  <supermop> isr has a separate ore station grf with dark brown ground
18:56:56  <supermop> also - steelmill slag ground tiles?
18:57:40  <supermop> brb lunch
18:59:18  <andythenorth> one grf per type :P
18:59:39  <andythenorth> frosch123: any inclination to patch hidden types?
18:59:48  <andythenorth> I would update RH for it
19:00:07  <frosch123> i am unsure how to implement them
19:00:57  <frosch123> if one grf defines a label as hidden type, and another one as real type, the real type has to win
19:01:26  <andythenorth> yes
19:02:23  <frosch123> i think it cannot be just a flag in that case, i guess it needs some different "label" property to perform a different reservation procedure
19:03:03  <andythenorth> I wonder if it has unexpected / unwanted side effects
19:03:16  <andythenorth> the mapping of vehicles to types is already confusing enough, as an author
19:03:22  <andythenorth> does this just make it worse?
19:03:49  <frosch123> it certainly affects tracktype introduction
19:04:05  <frosch123> currently a vehicle introduces its tracktype, if not available yet
19:04:14  <frosch123> which types does the virtual one introduce?
19:04:29  <frosch123> those from the "introduces" property?
19:04:40  <frosch123> and the vehicle is disabled if none of them exists?
19:05:39  <frosch123> anyway, why do you not add trails as off-road track :p
19:06:03  <frosch123> you need something to connect road and haul, don't you?
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19:06:31  <andythenorth> I might just treat the non-compatibility as a constraint
19:06:35  <andythenorth> not all things need to be solved
19:06:49  <andythenorth> constraints are useful, total freedom is boring
19:07:29  <andythenorth> maybe HAUL should be trams? o_O
19:08:04  <frosch123> HAUL souinds like mostly underlay
19:08:10  <frosch123> and road underlay wins over tram underlay
19:08:35  <andythenorth> well yes
19:08:44  <andythenorth> but RAIL -> HAUL could be done with the convert tool
19:08:48  <frosch123> i think you rather want some mining train
19:08:51  <andythenorth> round about 1960, when my trams run out :)
19:09:01  <frosch123> 600mm gauge for mining
19:09:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: that sounds like the stupid rail -> mono -> maglev conversion
19:10:09  <frosch123> sell all, remove all, restart from scratch
19:10:18  <frosch123> i always prefered adding stuff
19:10:24  <frosch123> than replacing stuff
19:10:53  <frosch123> so something that allows both the old tram and new haul sounds better to me
19:11:09  <andythenorth> fair
19:11:20  <frosch123> esp. with your one-to-one compatibility
19:11:30  <andythenorth> also they’re road vehicles, it’s bad hax to build them as light rail :P
19:11:34  <frosch123> otherwise you need bridges :p
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19:36:02  <andythenorth> maybe I should add a universal road
19:36:07  <andythenorth> but crippled by speed limits
19:39:17  <Wolf01> Change speed limit in different town zones, to confuse the player
19:47:25  <Wolf01> V would approve
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20:01:30  <supermop> andythenorth: thats called mud
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20:02:20  <supermop> whats a hidden type
20:04:15  <andythenorth> not a thing :)
20:04:32  <frosch123> something that would allow andy to skip drawing trail road :)
20:06:03  * andythenorth could cut power to most ROAD vehicles on HAUL
20:06:09  <andythenorth> so they go incredibly slowly
20:06:13  <andythenorth> user hostile? o_O
20:06:36  <frosch123> speed limit is a static thing from the roadtype pov
20:06:48  <andythenorth> cb to current roadtype? o_O
20:06:56  <frosch123> no thanks :)
20:06:59  <andythenorth> ach
20:07:10  <andythenorth> where’s the fun :P
20:07:30  <andythenorth> how will I animate dust effects on trail only?
20:07:37  <frosch123> someone did the work to cache stuff as long as the roadtype does not change under the vehicle
20:07:47  <andythenorth> And Other Important Features
20:07:50  <frosch123> if roadtypes get callbacks, we would have to invalidate on every tile
20:08:09  <andythenorth> I was thinking a var on cb36 (or so)
20:08:10  <andythenorth> current type
20:08:22  <andythenorth> it’s evil
20:08:25  <andythenorth> but trains have it
20:08:36  <frosch123> road vehicles have that too
20:08:53  <andythenorth> problem solved
20:09:03  <andythenorth> can I nerf the relibability to 0 O_O
20:09:06  <frosch123> so, hog can draw effects on specific roads
20:14:10  <supermop> andythenorth: why exactly can a bus not drive on haul?
20:15:08  <andythenorth> because it drives on ROAD? o_O
20:16:48  <supermop> is the haul road too bumpy or something?
20:17:21  <supermop> or just because there is a sign saying private road, do not enter?
20:18:08  <andythenorth> dunno
20:18:13  <andythenorth> I didn’t rationalise it
20:18:18  <andythenorth> it’s just a different route type
20:19:15  <supermop> fair enough
20:19:32  <andythenorth> for me, game is about building routes
20:19:37  <andythenorth> and fitting them into tiles
20:19:42  <supermop> then why bother cutting bus power? just disallow
20:19:50  <andythenorth> yeah, that’s the current solution
20:19:55  <andythenorth> everything else is basically trolling :P
20:20:51  <andythenorth> I wondered if the railtypes spec design went like this:
20:21:11  <andythenorth> - putting the compatibility property on the vehicle is really a lot of repetitive work when coding a set
20:21:17  <andythenorth> - so put it on the railtype instead
20:21:33  <andythenorth> or whether there was some other rationale
20:22:02  <frosch123> the rationale is that track types are not supplied by vehicle grfs :)
20:23:10  <andythenorth> but vehicles are not supplied by track type grfs
20:23:17  <andythenorth> :P
20:23:31  * andythenorth is not grumbling
20:23:33  <andythenorth> just curious
20:23:43  <andythenorth> anyway, here’s factorio
20:23:44  <supermop> next andy will add code to disable all andy grfs if a non-andy road or track grf is loaded
20:24:29  <andythenorth> I think that’s probably wise
20:24:44  <andythenorth> hey look, trolleybuses exist
20:24:48  <andythenorth> and DaleStan coded them
20:25:06  <andythenorth> can we crowdfund ‘return of DaleStan’ o_O
20:33:50  <andythenorth> old forums
20:34:23  <andythenorth> sometimes I think things were ‘better’ in the old days
20:34:30  <andythenorth> they weren’t, and I am wrong :)
20:34:53  <andythenorth> same stuff, different user names :)
20:36:04  <andythenorth>
20:36:23  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:38:28  <frosch123> that was a follow up post to a post in the locomotion section on the same day
20:38:50  <andythenorth> oh look, we’ve nearly completed my wish list :o
20:40:04  <frosch123> see, it's all in the trails topic
20:42:01  <andythenorth> still no Canadian trainset though :(
20:43:42  <frosch123> does nars not qualify?
20:44:15  <andythenorth> nah
20:44:21  <andythenorth> well maybe
20:45:10  <andythenorth> might be time to dust this off
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20:59:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: o_O
21:00:05  <andythenorth> redundant due to GS? o_O
21:00:49  <frosch123> yes, it's in the abandoned section, if you check the parent page :)
21:01:00  * andythenorth checks the parent page :P
21:01:06  <frosch123> 1.5 years ago there was a newgrf/gs interface stuff
21:01:17  <frosch123> it even has a compile farm set up
21:01:21  <frosch123> but then nothing was done :p
21:01:59  <andythenorth> was there a discussion logged somewhere? o_O
21:03:08  <Alberth> likely
21:04:02  <andythenorth> ho
21:04:17  <supermop> hah the someone who picked it up was you andythenorth
21:04:52  <andythenorth> only took 8 years or so
21:05:06  <andythenorth> 7 even
21:06:11  <frosch123> <- i wrote that, <- zuu wrote that
21:06:26  <Alberth> There is discussion about "Newgrf/GS" at nov 9, 2014
21:06:27  <frosch123> i think there is also a forum topic
21:06:31  <frosch123> and quite sure a lot in irc
21:07:04  <Alberth> areas are still in my head :)
21:07:33  <Alberth> not to mention they seem part of certain wild-west ideas here :)
21:08:24  <frosch123> <- that one
21:09:00  <frosch123> looks like that topic was quite popular :p
21:09:21  <andythenorth> ach I owed Zuu some tests on that
21:09:25  * andythenorth had forgotten
21:09:38  <andythenorth> it released the day before I went on holiday or so
21:10:24  <frosch123> area control was not done, because noone had an interesting application :)
21:10:42  * andythenorth is not starting a GS project any time soon
21:10:46  <frosch123> it was written because i browsed simutrans forums
21:10:56  <andythenorth> enough newgrfs unfinished :P
21:11:00  <frosch123> maybe i should do that again :p
21:11:16  <andythenorth> frosch123: well meanwhile this
21:11:48  <andythenorth> I think I’ll have to replace my ‘x units’ text with ‘underload, [empty], overload’ strings
21:11:51  <frosch123> you already posted that last month?
21:12:13  <andythenorth> I tried making it show the actual cargo
21:12:24  <andythenorth> but eh, the cb doesn’t have support for that
21:12:30  <andythenorth> the cargo presumably isn’t known
21:13:02  <andythenorth> also I realised the vehicle window text would repeat the cargo capacity twice
21:13:25  <frosch123> how about "+25%", "-25%"
21:13:39  <andythenorth> pretty much the best solution I think
21:13:51  <supermop> light ship goes faster?
21:13:52  <andythenorth> I had a horrible idea about ships having holds
21:14:01  <supermop> yes pls
21:14:22  <andythenorth> fixed capacity per hold, all same cargo, store the number of holds; actual capacity is number_holds * fixed_capacity
21:14:32  <andythenorth> probably stupid and pointless
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22:37:54  <LordAro> V453000: dem rails look nice
22:41:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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