Log for #openttd on 9th January 2017:
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12:12:18  <Wolf01> Moin
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15:51:10  <Wolf01> Quak
15:51:17  <Wolf01> Wrong animal
15:51:19  <Wolf01> o/
15:52:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Moo?
15:53:12  <Wolf01> I'm a bit poor on ideas this period... I would like to fix my terraforming tools but I don't have clue on how to do it :(
15:54:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i can help you there
15:55:16  <Alberth> o/
15:55:56  <Alberth> how do they fail?
15:55:59  <Wolf01> The problem is that the brush continuously raises the terrain, and does it really fast
15:56:23  <Wolf01> If I slow it down, it misses spots when dragging
15:57:04  <Alberth> raise one level each time you visit a tile?
15:57:23  <Alberth> or once every x seconds
16:03:09  <Alberth> conceptually, as soon as you cover a new tile with the brush, you raise the tile, and start a counter from x to 0. If it hits 0, raise again, and reset the counter to x. If the tile is no longer covered, remove the counter of it
16:04:32  <Wolf01> I'll end up having counters for 64 tiles at time
16:04:48  <Alberth> hmm, maybe not remove, but keep it running until timeout
16:05:03  <Alberth> less messy when you move back and forth
16:05:44  <Alberth> is 64 counters a problem?
16:06:17  <Wolf01> The problem is how to handle an array of counters which change continuously
16:07:47  <Alberth> 2D round-robin buffer?
16:09:06  <Alberth> for 64 tiles, a 6x6 area, where you point into it for one of the corners of the tool, which is at a known location in the map
16:10:00  <Alberth> all other tiles are relative to that position, but wrapping around in positive direction, instead of a negative offset
16:10:24  <Alberth> need a picture for that?
16:10:45  <Wolf01> I'm reading about it
16:11:10  <Alberth> :O it exists? :)
16:11:17  <Alberth> I just made it up :)
16:17:00  <Alberth> SO discussion looks different from my 2D idea
16:24:35  <Wolf01> Mmmh, an array of tile areas for a paintbrush pass, with the same exact area appearing only once, then when releasing the button it loops throught the array and raises the tiles
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16:39:10  <Wolf01> Bah, I just limited the terraformation on cursor movement, which is better than nothing, but I think is even better if I'll go read a book instead
16:40:30  <Alberth> if the book is any good, sure :)
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16:41:13  <Lejving> I don't know if anyone here who did it but I just want to say who ever made the mods/load/menu map things for this game you're a god damn hero
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16:41:36  <Lejving> Being able to load like 6 year old maps and just get right version number for a 10 year old mod without problem is a major masterpiece
16:41:53  <Alberth> oh :)
16:42:12  <Alberth> md5sum goes a long way :)
16:42:24  <Lejving> was it you who did it Alberth?
16:43:12  <Alberth> nah, done way before me arrived
16:43:22  <Lejving> ah ok but it's really fucking nice
16:44:15  <Lejving> I've been looking through some old openttdcoop games and it just hit me how amazing it is I can just load any old save and it works every time
16:46:02  <Alberth> :)
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18:09:14  <Alberth> o/
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18:13:29  <moonpunter> Argh can't seem to create an account for the wiki
18:13:38  <moonpunter> Not receiving any e-mails
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18:17:16  <glx> try to signup at directly
18:20:28  <frosch123> hoin
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18:44:03  <Wolf01> Quak
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19:23:26  <andythenorth> o/
19:24:55  <frosch123> mo
19:25:30  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:25:37  <Wolf01> o/
19:25:40  <andythenorth> an entire new class of routes in NotRoadTypes
19:25:45  <andythenorth> but...
19:25:54  <andythenorth> “Transmitters must be removable!!!!!"
19:26:59  <frosch123> well, at least someone might have got to "default objects should be overrideable by newgrf"
19:31:24  <moonpunter> glx: i've tried that numerous times before coming here
19:32:10  <moonpunter> gets to the screen where it says check your e-mail, e-mail never arrives
19:32:29  <andythenorth> “there are at least three groups of interest wrt. game features: 1. micromanagement like conditonal orders, refitting and loading. 2. automated economy like cargodist. 3. model railway sandbox” <- I think there is something else
19:33:13  <frosch123> reading ancient logs :p
19:33:38  <andythenorth> 'ancient'
19:33:45  <frosch123> last year
19:33:51  <andythenorth> so last year
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19:39:19  <andythenorth> 5. mostly the original game, only more, and with GUI annoyances reduced
19:39:27  <andythenorth> 6. a platform for people to make addons
19:39:47  <andythenorth> yeah, as goals, the wording of those is a bit crap
19:40:14  <frosch123> is 6 an interest group, or just the comprimise of the rest?
19:40:56  <andythenorth> I think it’s a specific interest
19:41:11  <andythenorth> there is a meta-game and community enabled by newgrf, AI, GS and scenarios
19:41:37  <andythenorth> it’s a creative platform, not similar, but in same direction as minecraft, etc
19:41:52  <andythenorth> people who are just having fun creating things
19:42:05  <andythenorth> it’s quite valid to give people creative tools imho
19:42:37  <Alberth> a canvas and some paint
19:43:56  <andythenorth> AI bores me so I don’t know how well that goes
19:43:59  <andythenorth> newgrf is pretty strong
19:44:19  <andythenorth> scenario…seems a bit fragile?
19:44:22  <andythenorth> GS is….not as good as I’d hope, dunno why
19:44:57  <frosch123> i think gs is more interesting when other do it
19:45:27  <andythenorth> maybe it’s a limited audience, or maybe it’s the format, or maybe it’s lack of ideas
19:45:29  <frosch123> playing something you designed yourself is always weird
19:45:33  <andythenorth> I only use 3 GS
19:45:59  <frosch123> problem is that most gs do this weird town growth stuff, which is all equally meh to me
19:46:12  <andythenorth> yup
19:46:21  <andythenorth> I can grow towns way bigger than I want already
19:46:29  <Alberth> give more control over cargo payment?
19:46:33  <andythenorth> although….my 6 year old is a good barometer
19:46:47  <andythenorth> (1) his main goal is to grow his toyland city as big as possible
19:46:48  <frosch123> i play with industries, not with towns :)
19:46:59  <Alberth> city GS make grow more difficult
19:47:01  <andythenorth> (2) he is very jealous that I have two 20k cities next to each other
19:47:42  <andythenorth> (3) the other day in the car, I was wondering (in my head) why people want multi-layer bridges, then in same moment, he asked me out loud how multi-level bridges could be coded
19:47:43  <andythenorth> so eh
19:47:47  <andythenorth> 6 year olds
19:47:57  <Alberth> :D
19:48:29  <frosch123> enabling crossing bridges is like 3 lines
19:48:52  <frosch123> stacked bridges in same direction is a lot more work
19:49:21  <andythenorth> I still don’t see the point :P
19:49:32  <andythenorth> although he said it means he can fit more tracks in
19:49:52  <frosch123> maybe it's the hope that 3d construction would make it more interesting
19:49:52  <andythenorth> to me, the core challenge of the game is cramming routes in :P
19:50:05  <andythenorth> I want it harder not easier
19:50:13  <frosch123> while for me that hope got crushed with bridge builder 15 years ago
19:50:54  <andythenorth> bridge builder? o_O
19:51:06  <frosch123>
19:51:25  <frosch123> was an awesome puzzle game in 2000
19:52:06  <frosch123> then got a 3d version "pontifex", which was exactly what i had hoped for, but was actually completely boring
19:52:09  <andythenorth> oh yeah, 6 year old also wants me to pay for this :P
19:52:13  <andythenorth> he’s done the free levels
20:02:18  <andythenorth> so what stops GS providing things like this?
20:02:22  <andythenorth> other than authors :D
20:03:18  <frosch123> isn't that busy bee?
20:03:42  <frosch123> just "replayablity" swapped with "hand crafted single scenario and balancing"
20:04:05  <andythenorth> probably
20:04:29  <andythenorth> each RT3 scenario was quite crafted, and needed a different strategy
20:04:51  <andythenorth> ottd is quite different, I think differences might be:
20:04:54  <andythenorth> - map is different :P
20:05:14  <andythenorth> - newgrf makes it impossible to know which industries and vehicles are present
20:05:57  <Alberth> this looks like a scenario, where you do know such things
20:06:23  <Alberth> arguably, you could code the knowledge in the gs, eg from grfid
20:06:34  <Alberth> although you may not have access to it now
20:06:46  <V453000> andythenorth your research brings me to conclusion my daughter should start playing openttd about now
20:06:47  <andythenorth> arguably, the newgrf author might revamp the grf :P
20:06:58  <andythenorth> V453000: how old? 6-7 months?
20:07:12  <V453000> 11
20:07:14  <Alberth> andy: well, ok, +md5sum :p
20:07:53  <V453000> frosch123: pontifex and bridge builder "D
20:07:55  <V453000> :D
20:08:07  <V453000> those were teh days
20:08:09  <andythenorth> V453000: maybe in 7 months more
20:08:12  <V453000> k
20:08:15  <V453000> will put on schedule
20:08:21  <frosch123> V453000: i was thoroughly disappointed by pontifex
20:08:30  <V453000> I dont remember shit tbh
20:09:11  <frosch123> Alberth: andy likes duck-typing. so: if it is a ship that refits to coal, it's proabably a bulk freighter
20:09:53  <andythenorth> 'probably'
20:10:05  <frosch123> V453000: blobby volley is the other thing that was played between cs 0.6-1.1 matches
20:10:22  <andythenorth> the scenario approach worked ok with a game on a DVD eh
20:10:25  <andythenorth> not so much with ottd
20:10:38  <V453000> I was thinking about buying planet coaster
20:10:50  <V453000> then I realized I might as well just play RCT2
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20:12:07  <V453000> so I didn't do either
20:12:11  <V453000> tada, conclusion
20:12:12  <V453000> big story
20:12:45  <Zuu> Hello
20:13:06  <frosch123> computer games are like music :) if you know enough, everything is covered from some earlier one
20:13:18  <frosch123> hoi zuu
20:13:38  <moonpunter> this game has stood the test of time at least
20:14:24  <andythenorth> lo Zuu
20:15:39  <Zuu> I read about your road types work.
20:18:56  <frosch123> can we recruit you to design the script api? :)
20:20:57  <Zuu> Could be similar to rail types script API, although maybe some care is needed to not break most AIs in one go. :-)
20:21:40  <frosch123> the compatibility layer would probably always build the first available road/tram type
20:22:17  <Zuu> And then a method in the new version to set the road/tram type just like there is a method to set road or tram.
20:22:44  <Zuu> And some list to get a list of all road/tram types.
20:22:57  <frosch123> road/tram now play a more important role
20:23:08  <frosch123> they are more like a infrastructure type on their own
20:23:29  <frosch123> like tram having different reversal rules and such
20:24:01  <Zuu> And abiliy to query properties of the types as long as it is possible and not the result of a cb or deep in to the newgrf. (lower speed in winter etc.)
20:24:41  <frosch123> the properties work mostly the same as for railtypes
20:24:53  <frosch123> and iirc there was an api for railtypes
20:25:01  <Zuu> I never wrote a rail AI so I haven't looked too deep in to rail types. :-)
20:29:04  <frosch123> oh, another weirdness: gs could build road with no owner/town owner; but not trams :p
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20:29:46  <Zuu> frosch123: Why is that wierd in the game?
20:30:04  <Zuu> Are you using reality as a point here?
20:30:10  <Zuu> ;-)
20:30:48  <frosch123> hmm, actually, you can also build canals
20:30:55  <frosch123> so tram should also be fine
20:31:09  <frosch123> we do not offer it in scenario editor though
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20:32:11  <Zuu> But sure, for some game modes or scenarios it could be interesting, and I would not oppose giving GS that power.
20:32:43  <Zuu> I don't think we will break any GS by allowing it to build trams.
20:32:49  <frosch123> the thing was: rail is only company owned and is removed when bankrupt
20:32:56  <frosch123> road can be town owned
20:33:05  <Zuu> s/trams/tram rails/
20:33:07  <frosch123> tram cannot be town owner, but is also not removed when bankrupt
20:33:21  <frosch123> but then i remembered that canals behave the same as tram
20:33:33  <frosch123> canals are also not town owned, but are not removed when bankrupt
20:34:16  <Zuu> So if tram is not removed when bankrupt, will it still have a company id as owner? Or was it that deity and town is two separate values?
20:34:36  <frosch123> tram and canal are OWNER_NONE after bankrupt
20:34:39  <frosch123> everyone can remove them
20:34:55  <frosch123> road turns into OWNER_TOWN when near a town, and OWNER_NONE when far away
20:34:58  <frosch123> or something like that
20:35:21  <frosch123> town can also build road, which you cannot easily remove
20:35:31  <frosch123> while clearing OWNER_NONE stuff is unlimited
20:35:38  <Zuu> I guess the reason to not let towns own tram was that towns would then have to be teached what to do with the tram network.
20:36:05  <frosch123> nah, it was actually bit stuffing :)
20:36:17  <ConductCat> :3
20:36:20  <frosch123> 15 companies, 1 no company
20:36:27  <frosch123> town owner requires another bit
20:36:31  <Zuu> :-)
20:36:47  <frosch123> the regular tile owner is 5 bits
20:37:02  <Zuu> Ok
20:37:13  <frosch123> but since stations have 3 owners meanwhile, it needed to safe bits
20:37:24  <frosch123> (roadstop owner, road owner, tram owner)
20:37:47  <frosch123> weirdness :)
20:38:08  * andythenorth has too much indirection in this ship compile
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20:38:51  <andythenorth> capacity -> by cargo -> by size class -> from hull class
20:38:58  <andythenorth> that’s ridiculous :P
20:39:34  <andythenorth> 4 lookups / method calls to get capacity :P
20:39:54  <frosch123> i believe you can make it ludicrous
20:40:10  <andythenorth> I was wondering about mixins
20:40:30  <andythenorth> I could add a mixin to the hull class, providing a size
20:42:22  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:42:37  <andythenorth> frosch123 the diagram here is like your diagram for capacity
20:50:36  <frosch123> but i can read my diagram
20:50:47  <frosch123> can the author of that read their diagram?
20:51:00  <andythenorth> I think not :)
20:51:26  <andythenorth> I will not miss being free of Plone, once I am finally free of Plone
20:51:29  <andythenorth> bue h
20:51:39  <andythenorth> poor typing :P
20:51:45  <frosch123> <- there is even only one cross-over
20:52:34  <andythenorth> much nicer :)
21:03:29  <frosch123> am i done with watching ludicrous related scenes on yt?
21:03:40  <frosch123> i even found one which i did not remember
21:11:26  <andythenorth> it sucks me in
21:12:01  <andythenorth> right now I have gone from take-apart videos of dangerous electrical devices
21:12:02  <andythenorth> to this
21:12:07  <andythenorth> in two clicks
21:12:42  <frosch123> how boring
21:13:21  <frosch123> some years ago the sun-equivalent reported about two women competing on how many they could handle in one day
21:13:51  <andythenorth> the YT automatic subtitles really don’t handle regional English accents
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21:18:06  <frosch123> <- maybe that is still a better hobby then
21:18:13  <glx> <andythenorth> right now I have gone from take-apart videos of dangerous electrical devices <-- bigclivedotcom ?
21:18:24  <andythenorth> yup
21:18:39  <glx> crazy chinese devices :)
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21:19:12  <Vinicius_Brasil> hi
21:19:49  <Vinicius_Brasil> anybody wants to play online?
21:26:14  <Supercheese> Reddit's r/OpenTTD servers are usually populated
21:26:46  <frosch123> you can also sort the server list by number of active clients :)
21:27:19  <andythenorth> is the subreddit for ottd good?
21:27:45  <frosch123> it has no original informat
21:27:55  <frosch123> it's a link aggegator for forums
21:28:04  <frosch123> and a support forum
21:28:18  <frosch123> i like it for the latter, because i am not involved :)
21:29:21  <andythenorth> fair :)
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21:46:22  <jack__> if anybody wantsto play the servers name is jack's server
21:48:02  <jack__> anybody wants?]
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21:58:40  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:36:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i've completely lost track of what the transmitter thread is trying to achieve
23:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> less obstacles?
23:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> more obstacles?
23:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> more obstacles that are less obstacly?
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