Log for #openttd on 29th January 2017:
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00:06:55  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:45:04  <Alberth> moin
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07:53:48  <andythenorth> such Sunday
07:55:20  <Alberth> yep :)
08:01:53  <Alberth>   some tram parts are driving next to the track in a corner :)
08:02:15  <andythenorth> interesting
08:03:49  <Alberth> iron horse 1.9.1, stakebeek flatbed tram
08:04:30  <Alberth> at least I hope it's IH
08:04:43  <andythenorth> Road Hog :D
08:04:52  <andythenorth> animal / animal /s
08:05:01  <Alberth> ah :)  1.1.0  then :)
08:05:36  * andythenorth looks
08:05:54  <peter1138> offsets eh
08:06:08  <Alberth> I think it's the only corner where this happens, and only in this direction
08:06:17  <Alberth> but the other corners are much harder to check
08:07:26  <andythenorth> offsets always
08:07:47  <Alberth> universal way of fixing things :)
08:12:12  <andythenorth> Alberth: although it looks wrong (verified here), it’s ‘right’ according to the BB
08:12:46  <Alberth> :O
08:13:20  <andythenorth> although not for some other angles :P
08:13:29  <andythenorth> the – in the opposite direction is quite wrong :P
08:13:31  <Alberth> haha :)
08:14:12  <andythenorth> but that one at least looks right in game :P
08:14:31  <Alberth> something nrt-ish perhaps?
08:14:34  <andythenorth> nah
08:15:25  <andythenorth> afaict, trams that are ‘correct’ for the BB are ‘wrong’ for the track sprites
08:15:43  <andythenorth> that’s my best guess anyway, I’ve tried to solve this before :)
08:16:21  <Alberth> so, they're supposed to be wrong for BB :)
08:16:42  <andythenorth> my assumption is that the track sprites and the actual vehicle movement don’t match up
08:16:55  <andythenorth> and then that will also vary with newgrfs, for extra fun :)
08:17:29  <Alberth> combining vehicles of different newgrfs is an art in itself :p
08:18:22  <andythenorth> some of the tram track grfs have different gauges
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08:19:09  <andythenorth> although
08:19:26  <andythenorth> the – view is hard to line up, because it’s a cube rotated 45 degrees
08:19:46  <andythenorth> unlike the \ / views which are actually usefully when using ctrl-b
08:21:01  <Alberth> quite
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08:42:08  * andythenorth ships
08:43:30  <Alberth> moar pixzelz
08:58:50  <andythenorth> moar offsets :P
08:59:15  <Alberth> less ship-parts :)
09:00:57  <andythenorth> fewer lengths
09:01:09  <andythenorth> and no need to line up with tracks :P
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09:18:12  <Alberth> :)
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09:32:47  <andythenorth> eh
09:32:50  <andythenorth> what would be nice
09:32:52  <andythenorth> is a new GS
09:35:02  <V453000> I have a serious train problem
09:35:12  <andythenorth> srsly?
09:35:18  <V453000> no matter what kind of train I draw or render, it will never look better than 8bpp slugs
09:37:18  <andythenorth> iz problem
09:38:11  <V453000> if 32bpp doesn't look good after I'm done with photoshoping it to shit, and writing a custom 32-8bpp converter, I will probably just return to drawing 8bpp
09:38:57  <andythenorth> as a copy of the 32bpp, but drawn?
09:39:04  <andythenorth> or just no 32bpp?
09:39:29  <V453000> just no 32bpp
09:39:45  <V453000> ofc Eventually if I have mental breakdown, I can add 32bpp, but not replace 8bpp
09:39:47  <V453000> works for nuts
09:39:58  <Alberth> :O
09:40:16  * andythenorth is not convinced 32bpp has moved ottd world forward
09:40:35  <Alberth> ask that to all the zBase fans :p
09:40:38  <andythenorth> about 4 beautiful sets, none finished, all different
09:40:45  <andythenorth> and some fugly stuff
09:40:55  <V453000> well it's because with the more options and availability you get, the harder making the graphics good actually g ets
09:40:57  <andythenorth> big files, slow render and compiles
09:41:12  <V453000> even if I ignore the process
09:41:16  <V453000> it looks shit
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09:41:28  <V453000> zbase is totally out of scope of looking shit
09:41:31  <V453000> but brix is still bad
09:41:31  <Alberth> o/
09:41:35  <Wolf01> o/
09:41:39  <andythenorth> lo Wolf01
09:41:46  <V453000> yo sound combinator 01
09:42:10  <andythenorth> I have only seen two things that make me consider drawing 32bpp and/or larger
09:42:18  <andythenorth> the chinese trains
09:42:22  <andythenorth> and some others (polish?)
09:42:29  <V453000> yes
09:42:36  <V453000> there is nothing else
09:43:08  <Alberth> the cause is in the rendering?
09:43:11  <V453000> really want to finish drawin the brix
09:43:12  <V453000> no Alberth
09:43:18  <Alberth> or in having too much choice?
09:43:27  <andythenorth> this is great
09:43:34  <andythenorth> it’s chibi
09:43:45  <andythenorth> (the trains, not the other sprites)
09:43:47  <V453000> 1. more pixels means it requires SHITLOAD more detail, giant problem comes when details have to look good in x1 zoom, while not looking retarded in x4
09:44:18  <andythenorth> V453000: pure 3D games use poly clipping at different zoom levels
09:44:22  <V453000> 2. rendering, even with nearest neighbours and non-antialiased algorithms, will always look blurry, esp compared t o the super vibrant, contrasty and precise well-drawn 8bpp
09:44:26  <andythenorth> for both performance + appearance
09:44:57  <V453000> 3. more colours -> you actually need to choose colours carefully, with 8bpp you "just draw" with the palette that you already have given, that's a HUGE helper for consistency
09:45:18  <V453000> that's my top 3 points for 32bpp not working, or being extremely hard to do nicely
09:45:25  <Alberth> 1. I think that was to be expected, to get optimal quality, you'd have to draw each size by hand
09:45:58  <Alberth> 2. algorithms are no match for human intuition and precision
09:46:18  <V453000> 4. OpenTTD's scale is in many places absolutely not realistic - chibi for example - so it either looks retarded - super chibi - or you make graphics which don't look like real world trains - slugs
09:46:21  <Alberth> 3. Make a slightly bigger palette?
09:46:43  <andythenorth> V453000: I think the brix trains nailed it tbh
09:46:47  <V453000> yeah but 1. means it takes INSANE amount of  time
09:46:53  <andythenorth> and they wouldn’t look right drawn in pixels
09:46:58  <V453000> andythenorth: yes, it is very carefully designed
09:47:20  <V453000> in pixels they wouldn't need such stupid tricks because the illusion works there, just like it always have
09:47:38  <V453000> Alberth a bigger palette is unnecessary, in fact I am considering to try converting 32bpp to 8bpp even in EZ
09:47:50  <andythenorth> this I like
09:48:08  <V453000> which would answer the "omfg we want moar pixulz on our 8K screen fuck TV on table with computer plugged into it", while keeping great consistency
09:48:09  <andythenorth> but I’m not redrawing everything of mine to 2x zoom :P
09:48:25  <V453000> problem iz need custom converter I will eventually write in snake language
09:48:33  <V453000> yes the polish set is win
09:48:34  <Alberth> what I mean is perhaps use 512 or 1024 colours or so, rather than 16e6
09:48:37  <andythenorth> this took him 4 days
09:48:53  <V453000> yeah that looks possible
09:48:59  <V453000> 4 days is a lot though
09:49:02  <andythenorth> yes
09:49:03  <V453000> when I consider how many cargoes nuts has
09:49:05  <andythenorth> way much
09:49:11  <andythenorth> even automating the cargos like I have
09:49:14  <andythenorth> it’s way much
09:49:23  <andythenorth> I have kids, I don’t have that time
09:49:27  <V453000> I know that full wagon generation for NUTS took me around 3 weeks
09:49:34  <andythenorth> 4x zoom is for 1st year degree students
09:49:39  <V453000> says has kids, dras ships
09:49:40  <andythenorth> nothing to do in 1st year anyway
09:49:40  <V453000> G_G
09:49:48  <V453000> :D
09:49:52  <andythenorth> V453000: automated ships :P
09:49:55  <V453000> haha
09:50:40  <V453000> but yeah, nothing is final but I don't feel very stronk about 32bpp
09:50:45  <andythenorth> V453000: piece goods and refrigerated ships “omg they look so different”
09:50:54  <V453000> especially when I see slugs which use like all palette colours
09:51:14  <V453000> nice :)
09:51:35  <andythenorth> global fill 8 colours :P
09:51:44  <andythenorth> and I am teaching PIL to do it for me :P
09:52:00  <Alberth> working very hard to be lazy :)
09:52:09  <andythenorth> end result = better quality
09:52:24  <andythenorth> I draw one ship really well in false colour
09:52:29  <andythenorth> recolour it to make 3 ships :P
09:52:48  <Alberth> :D
09:52:49  <andythenorth> fits original game style
09:53:04  <andythenorth> one-third of the sprites are probably copy-paste and recolour
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09:54:05  <Alberth> that's fine, stats are also lot of re-use, multiplied with some factor
09:55:30  <Wolf01> I was reading the forums... has this been fixed?
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09:56:57  <V453000> I'm planning to go absolutely batshit with my trains, regarding recolouring andythenorth
09:57:14  <V453000> it's so fast and easy and gives so much variety
09:57:26  <V453000> the rainbow slugs use it a lot, and they look glorious
09:58:31  <V453000> also shit like, draw 1 heap of coal
09:58:37  <V453000> automatically get all 20 hopper cargoes
09:58:38  <V453000> fuck yeah
09:58:46  <andythenorth> Wolf01: looks like no
10:00:35  <Wolf01> The BARRB project looks nice, I hope for NRT compatibility
10:01:46  <andythenorth> he won’t be able to do it any other way :)
10:04:25  <V453000> is based on ogfx
10:04:34  <V453000> all I need to know
10:04:39  <V453000> there's no saving
10:05:17  <V453000> I don't want to be hating, but OpenGFX is the death of quality pixel art in openttd
10:05:30  <V453000> because every new set since opengfx is the official shit just draws it "to be compatible"
10:05:43  <V453000> but the fact that the levels and contrast in opengfx is utterly fucked is just under the carpet
10:06:18  * andythenorth has considered fixing it before
10:06:18  <V453000> but then any of us could have improved it at any point, so...
10:06:25  <andythenorth> but the easy fix is installing the proper base set
10:06:30  <V453000> I did road/rail tunnels! :D
10:06:33  <V453000> ye
10:07:16  <Alberth> having alternatives is always useful
10:07:31  <Alberth> ie zBase is good only because there is nothing else in 32bpp
10:07:39  <andythenorth> V453000: it’s unappealing to me to spend 1 year drawing a replacement for ogfx :P
10:07:39  <V453000> not when it becomes a standard and new authors start making things based off it
10:07:44  <andythenorth> it won’t be better than original
10:07:49  <V453000> yes andythenorth
10:07:50  <andythenorth> and it will have to be different
10:07:53  <V453000> exactly my point
10:07:54  <andythenorth> for copyright
10:08:22  <V453000> it blows my mind how well the original is drawn
10:08:26  <andythenorth> yup
10:08:27  <V453000> it's literally timeless
10:08:35  <andythenorth> especially comparing lomo is so bad, from same author :P
10:08:41  <V453000> hehe
10:08:44  <andythenorth> snow base set? o_O
10:08:51  <V453000> lomo is the RCT styled graphics right
10:09:05  <Wolf01> Ok, that underlay needs fixing graphics
10:09:22  <andythenorth> oh he’s switched to affinity
10:09:27  <andythenorth> interesting, I’m considering that
10:09:30  <andythenorth>
10:09:39  <andythenorth> drippy cat = simon foster
10:09:51  <V453000> yes
10:10:43  <andythenorth> could just pay him to draw a base set :P
10:10:43  <andythenorth>
10:10:44  * andythenorth isn’t rich yet 
10:11:31  <V453000> more importantly
10:11:42  <V453000> I even replied to that video telling him about my afterFX shit :P
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10:12:00  <Alberth> lomo used 3d rendering, at least for the vehicles, I think
10:12:12  <V453000> RCT as well
10:12:12  <andythenorth>
10:12:13  <Alberth> then it makes sense to keep that style, or it's a mess
10:12:21  <V453000> yes andythenorth
10:12:50  <_maddy> any newgrf to run fast trains (monotrail/maglev) on track that looks like electrified rails? similar to "universal rail"
10:13:05  <V453000> nuts? :)
10:13:53  <_maddy> NUTS doesn't allow that
10:14:32  <V453000> what do you actually want to achieve?
10:14:43  <V453000> just add an universal rail which looks like rail?
10:14:53  <_maddy> yeah
10:16:12  <V453000> there's quite a few universal rail newgrfs which do just that?
10:16:18  <V453000> just search for universal
10:17:52  <_maddy> only two results, "universal rail type" and purr
10:18:13  <V453000> well, universal rail type works?
10:18:14  <_maddy> I am looking for universal rail, but with electrified track
10:18:20  <V453000> oh
10:18:23  <V453000> the catenary
10:18:28  <_maddy> yeah :)
10:18:33  <V453000> uhm, why? :D
10:18:42  <V453000> but yeah I don't know about any such newgrf
10:20:12  <_maddy> just like how it looks, no reason other than that.. more than say monorail or maglev
10:20:17  <andythenorth> oh
10:20:47  <V453000> yeah, railway has it's magic
10:21:01  <V453000> which trains do you want to run on it?
10:21:21  <andythenorth> that’s interesting
10:21:23  <andythenorth> Alberth: ^
10:21:35  * andythenorth was unsure what SF thought about open source clones
10:22:01  <Wolf01> Catenary should be an infrastructure, so you can put it everywhere :E
10:22:23  <Wolf01> Even in bare land... electric bulldozers
10:23:07  <_maddy> V453000: not sure, just something fast.. I normally just use the fastest electric train, NUTS is good for that
10:23:12  <V453000> ha andythenorth
10:23:31  <V453000> well fast is pretty relative _maddy :P
10:23:46  <Alberth> SF doesn't care, he does graphics, not sales of copies
10:24:05  <_maddy> my point is that I never get to play with monorail or maglev because I don't like how the tracks look :)
10:24:15  <V453000> right
10:24:27  <V453000> what base set are you using?
10:24:34  <V453000> opengfx?
10:24:35  <V453000> zbase?
10:24:39  <V453000> original?
10:24:39  <_maddy> opengfx
10:24:45  <V453000> there's your problem :P
10:25:11  <V453000> please join the worshippers of original grafix
10:25:14  <Alberth> <-- considered those maglev tracks?
10:25:16  <V453000> OR ELSE :>
10:25:55  <V453000> nice, I've never seen that
10:26:04  <V453000> it's shit-compatible with opengfx but generally nice
10:26:19  <V453000> it's not like purr is a masterpiece in how it looks
10:26:21  <V453000> XD
10:26:24  <_maddy> Alberth: yeah I noticed that, it's better than the original
10:26:32  * V453000 has a lot of words but no products
10:26:32  <Alberth> I'd paint the tracks with something else than grey, at least
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10:27:04  <Alberth> for some reason people want dull grey as track colour for maglev
10:27:09  <_maddy> clean purr is actually pretty nice... the colorful ones break my eyes
10:27:34  <V453000> just ... don't use the colourful ones then XD
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10:28:30  <_maddy> what is the newgrf for the simplistic/flat looking landscape in latest openttdcoop screenshots?
10:28:31  <Alberth> yeah, they are a bit bright :)
10:28:38  <V453000> BRIX
10:28:54  <V453000> Lejving is obsessing with posting screens with it everywhere
10:28:56  <V453000> although it's shit XD
10:29:21  <Alberth> V: you kmow the love/hate relation ship of andy with his sets, right?
10:30:07  <Alberth> V: compare with zbase, not with hand-drawn graphics :p
10:30:48  <Alberth> no way you ever going to win with algorithms then
10:30:52  <V453000> track colours = win
10:31:04  <V453000> yes
10:31:15  <V453000> is why I'm going hardcore nerd mode with my wacom over it Alberth
10:31:48  <V453000> I'm not completely redrawing the things, just trying to see how much enhancement do I need to get a good result
10:32:03  <V453000> it's certainly possible to render a nice 3D thing, but it's more work than doing it by hand
10:32:29  <Alberth> yeah, "working hard to be lazy" isn't actually any shorter :)
10:32:42  <Alberth> at least not for first-time things
10:33:12  <V453000> kind of
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10:35:40  * andythenorth automates the stuff that can be automated
10:35:48  <andythenorth> like copy-paste nonsense
10:36:09  <V453000> if I ever stop talking shit and actually start working on it, my next train set will be automation heaven
10:36:15  <V453000> andythenorth will drool
10:36:16  <andythenorth> won’t it
10:36:32  <V453000> compile times might be unoptimized
10:36:33  <V453000> G_G
10:36:47  <andythenorth> 1 wagon with 20 cargos = 320 copy-paste
10:36:59  <andythenorth> that’s the crap to automate
10:37:13  <V453000> yes
10:37:51  * V453000 is going to be brave and generate code by snake as well
10:37:58  <andythenorth> 1 mistake in positioning = 1 tedious bug report 7 months later :P
10:38:04  <andythenorth> low quality
10:38:18  <V453000> can
10:38:22  <V453000> can't happen to m1
10:38:24  <V453000> me
10:38:26  <V453000> ! XD
10:38:27  <V453000> nvm
10:38:35  <V453000> joke ran away after 3 types
10:38:39  <V453000> typos EVEN
10:38:41  <Wolf01> How did you manage to press 1 instead of e?
10:38:42  <V453000> I go back to blender
10:38:56  <V453000> idk Wolf01
10:39:01  <V453000> music melting my brain
10:39:04  <Wolf01> :D
10:39:21  <Wolf01> I can't listen to songs while writing :(
10:39:23  <andythenorth> automate typing
10:39:29  <Wolf01> I need to listen to classic music only
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10:41:25  <V453000> yeah the thing I have here isn't exactly classic
10:41:29  <V453000> melts brains
10:41:53  <Wolf01> Tool?
10:42:27  <andythenorth>
10:42:27  <andythenorth> :P
10:44:02  <V453000>
10:47:08  <Wolf01> I'm more heavy/power/epic metal, hard rock and classic music :P
10:47:49  <Wolf01> Mmmmh, I should open "some" lego boxes... exactly 12
10:48:03  <Wolf01> Before I forget that again
10:51:42  <V453000> 12?!
10:51:46  <V453000> sounds like andy
10:51:50  <V453000>  /s
10:55:37  <Wolf01>!AgUFeOGLNNfVhsxZODQIhfKrXUJeQg <- the box contains 10 of those
10:55:56  <Wolf01> They didn't even wasted time to open it
10:56:37  <V453000> nice
10:57:38  <Wolf01> Since last time I purchased only 8 and I found that I needed more, this time I purchased directly 12 :P
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10:58:21  <Wolf01> Oh, wonderful, it's only one plastic bag, I could try to build it without open it
10:58:47  <V453000> XD XD
10:58:50  <V453000> found that I needed more
10:58:52  <V453000> XD XD
10:58:56  <V453000> one does not simply play one factorio
10:59:33  <_maddy> is factorio good game? how does it compare to openttd?
11:03:00  <V453000> it's a great game, it's similar in some of the building-some-logistic-stuff-on-a-tile-grid-kind-of-puzzle
11:03:56  <V453000> in openttd, trains are super nice and have super high potential for complexity, but the other transportation types are dumb as bricks
11:04:16  <V453000> in factorio, none of them is so extremely complex as openttd trains can get, but all of them are interesting
11:05:41  <V453000> and combining them together can also get pretty fucked up :)
11:06:26  <_maddy> yeah, it looks pretty nice, will probably buy it at some point in the future
11:06:33  <V453000>
11:06:44  <V453000> my belt hive
11:11:55  <Alberth> factorio, coop-style :)
11:13:52  <V453000> admittedly, nobody really builds this way. Vast majority of people prefer to keep their factories super clean
11:14:00  <V453000> but it doesn't result in the absolute visual mayhem ._.
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11:17:31  <Wolf01> <V453000> it's a great game <- asking the innkeeper if the wine is good
11:18:42  <Alberth> :)
11:24:05  <V453000> there are innkeepers who lie and who don't :P
11:24:14  <V453000> also there are innkeepers who are alcoholics
11:24:18  <V453000> tun tun tun
11:29:41  <Wolf01> Uhm, now the tricky step... connect the 3 main pieces of the locomotive...
11:32:44  <Wolf01> Done!
11:32:55  <Wolf01> 30 minutes, nice time
11:33:23  <Wolf01> Less than the last time when I tried to build it by guessing the instructions
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11:35:45  <Wolf01>!AgUFeOGLNNfVhsxbDmAKPC4MdGBYdA :D
11:36:31  <V453000> isn't that cheating
11:36:40  <Wolf01> How could be that cheating?
11:36:57  <V453000> aren't you supposed to build it form tiny bits? :D
11:37:00  <V453000> is this how it arrived?
11:37:12  <Wolf01> Ahahaha no, it arrived in pieces :D
11:37:33  <V453000> ah ok
11:37:57  <V453000> but why is it in the plastic bag then ._.
11:38:16  <Wolf01> <Wolf01> Oh, wonderful, it's only one plastic bag, I could try to build it without open it <-
11:38:50  <V453000> OH
11:38:53  <V453000> omfg nerd
11:39:00  <V453000> nice. :)
11:39:24  <Alberth> less lost tiny bits :p
11:39:29  <V453000> but yeah you're cheating because you avoided the danger of getting some pieces lost all over the room XD
11:39:30  <V453000> yes
11:39:55  <Wolf01> Ahaahh build while paused like... not a cheat anymore
11:39:57  <Wolf01> XD
11:40:16  <Alberth> :)
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11:42:46  <Wolf01> Quak
11:42:48  <V453000> all hail frog
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11:42:56  <frosch123> moi
11:43:00  <Wolf01> Hall hail the hypnotoad
11:43:09  <Wolf01> *ahh
11:43:11  <Wolf01> *all
11:43:19  <Wolf01> Banana fingers
11:44:05  <Wolf01> And "h-l" is one key far away than "1-e" XD
11:45:54  <Alberth> hola
11:46:51  <V453000> haha
11:47:12  <V453000> I not so retard yet
11:47:18  <V453000> Wolf01 1 key moar
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11:48:44  <Lejving> Ffs V453000 Im just spreading the V legacy!!! :(
11:48:55  <V453000> wot
11:49:02  <V453000> u pregnant?
11:49:08  <Wolf01> Ahaha
11:49:11  <Lejving> yes
11:49:22  <Lejving> and brix screenshots
11:49:28  <V453000> haha
11:49:31  <Lejving> :)
11:49:56  <V453000> yeah pregnant individuals seem to shit brix
11:50:00  <V453000> trust me
11:50:29  <V453000> anyway slave what are you doing in this channel, get back to expanding the slug hive
11:51:33  <Lejving> yes mi lord
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12:06:18  <frosch123> Wolf01: building stuff inside the bag is awesome :)
12:06:28  <Wolf01> :D
12:06:44  <Alberth> no dust at your precious models!
12:07:58  <Wolf01> Too bad that those which are taking dust were split in different plastic bags :P
12:08:19  <V453000> write it as a special shipping requirement
12:08:34  <Alberth> :)
12:09:22  <Wolf01> I wonder how I could be able to build the bucket wheel excavator in a single bag... also it needs batteries XD
12:10:19  <Wolf01> 3929 parts... it would be really tricky
12:10:52  <Wolf01> Lunch time
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12:18:02  <V453000> order one on solar powering instead of batteries
12:20:32  * andythenorth destroyed lego
12:20:34  <andythenorth> too much power
12:21:28  <andythenorth> V453000: new arctic base set?
12:21:31  <andythenorth> just white
12:21:35  <V453000> n
12:21:45  <V453000> brix haz grene grass noaw
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12:22:52  <_maddy> is brix downloadable from anywhere?
12:23:26  <V453000> not officially
12:23:41  <V453000> it's not ready for 0.0.1 yet
12:23:48  <V453000> the style will change a lot
12:23:49  <_maddy> here?
12:24:10  <V453000> yeah, no
12:24:43  <Wolf01> has andythenorth seen my last achievement?
12:25:16  <andythenorth> boil in the bag?
12:25:22  <Wolf01> Yup
12:26:06  <Wolf01> I should build the other 2 and link the bags together
12:26:24  <Wolf01> But I won't do that :P
12:26:39  <_maddy> V453000: unofficially?
12:28:11  <V453000> I have a file I have shared with a few people
12:28:17  <V453000> but it's not available anywhere
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12:29:00  <_maddy> oh, very exclusive
12:29:09  <_maddy> I'll wait fhr the 0.0.1
12:29:23  <V453000> the first impression matters a lot
12:29:39  <V453000> at least it needs to have a defined style which isn't going to change completely
12:29:45  <V453000> and after longer playing it currently isn't great
12:30:13  <V453000> nice band name
12:33:06  <frosch123> Wolf01: <- extended the todo list
12:34:18  <Wolf01> I tried it this morning, it works but only with new sprites, basesets have the terrain and road all in one sprite so it overwrites the other one
12:34:31  <frosch123> exactly :)
12:36:45  <Wolf01> But I think it would be possible to keep both behaviors by removing the else part and switching positions for road and tram underlays
12:37:12  <Wolf01> *removing else part and replacing it with tram_rti != NULL
12:38:05  <frosch123> well, we need baseset sprites
12:38:37  <frosch123> anyway, i am more in the mood to finishing a first version, than to extend the roadmap :p
12:38:44  <Wolf01> +1
12:40:57  <Wolf01> Could I suggest to change the "titles" of the todo items to h3? Or it would clutter too much the nav menu?
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12:43:46  <frosch123> list got too long? :p
12:43:54  *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
12:43:56  <Wolf01> Nah
12:44:24  <Wolf01> <- look at this one
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12:47:30  <andythenorth> how long should a 128px ship be in \ / views
12:47:32  <andythenorth> :P
12:48:38  <andythenorth> nvm
12:49:21  <V453000> yes
12:49:50  <frosch123> <- Wolf01: better?
12:50:24  <Wolf01> Yes, easy to spot the todo item body :P
12:50:52  <frosch123> i never understood the header font sizes
12:50:59  <frosch123> h2 always looks smaller than h3
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12:51:16  <Wolf01> Wiki css is ugly
12:51:24  <V453000> 453000 looks bigger than anything else
12:51:27  <V453000> gg
12:57:26  <V453000> maybe the answer to brix is to make everything actually slugs
12:57:28  <V453000> trees
12:57:30  <V453000> industries
12:57:31  <V453000> bridges
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12:58:57  <V453000> is cat?
13:02:46  <Wolf01> I wonder if you already hid a slug somewhere in factorio
13:04:50  <V453000> I wanted to
13:04:51  <V453000> but eh
13:05:01  <V453000> plan B was replace all biter graphics with slugs
13:05:12  <V453000> slugtorio
13:05:48  <Wolf01> Reduce their speed too, make them spawn more, dramatic wave of slugs coming to eat you alive
13:07:48  <Wolf01> You should really make a mod
13:08:03  <Wolf01> 11/10 I would use it
13:08:41  <Wolf01> <- totally
13:08:45  <Wolf01> But with slugs XD
13:18:01  <frosch123> <- Alberth: would you agree to that?
13:18:23  <frosch123> or do have a different opinion/idea?
13:19:23  <frosch123> Wolf01: ever wondered what is under the helmet of the factorio character?
13:21:37  <Wolf01> Could be V for what I can guess, usually if I can't make a character I don't really bother of his aspect... but the model reminds me a lot Kovac from How to Survive
13:22:21  <V453000> haha
13:22:24  <V453000> iz secretly slug
13:23:04  <Wolf01> That's why you have to put exoskeleton to make it run fast?
13:23:23  <V453000> yeah or put lube barrel in inventory
13:23:55  <frosch123> i would believe that :)
13:25:08  <Alberth> frosch123: I have no problems with declarative syntax like line 33 (identifier = ...), but fair enough. Making it consistent like you propose would be good, imho
13:25:22  <Alberth> perhaps add () for those definitions that don't have it yet?
13:25:42  <frosch123> empty () looks weird
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13:26:00  <Alberth> yeah, fair enough
13:26:05  <frosch123> class derived():
13:26:12  <frosch123> you don't write that
13:27:23  <Alberth> I might, but I am doing too many weird languages :p
13:28:06  <frosch123> i try to take python as guide :)
13:28:34  <Alberth> makes sense, quite known language, and well designed
13:29:07  <Alberth> we'd need to drop the { and } too then :p
13:29:24  <Alberth> I often do  header : ....  end
13:30:03  <Alberth> of course that breaks all nml code :p
13:30:48  <Alberth> { } works too  :)
13:33:07  <Alberth> also, I have been pondering how to save/load std::string, it seems there are 2 options. 1) Make a special case for the struct that has them (assuming that's possible), or 2) Introduce 'native' std::string support in save/load code. The latter looks like adding a SLE_VAR_STDSTR or so. at first sight
13:33:49  <Alberth> under the assumption this is not going to be the last std::string to save, the latter may be the better solution
13:34:31  <frosch123> what do you want to save? grffilename?
13:37:01  <frosch123> anyway, i believe we already have SLE_ stuf for char* and char[], so adding std::string as third should be fine
13:37:21  <Alberth>
13:37:42  <Alberth> and there is another Grf class  GrfFile or so, iirc
13:38:41  <frosch123> is the "stringquote" stuff actually used? i cannot find anything
13:38:50  <Alberth>
13:39:02  <Alberth> in settings, I think
13:39:19  <frosch123> oh, indeed
13:40:12  <frosch123> so STR and STRQ is not about savegames, but about ini files :)
13:40:29  <Alberth>
13:40:47  <Alberth> but I agree it's weird
13:41:02  <frosch123> yeah, in saveload both are treated the same, just the iniwriter in settings.cpp makes a difference
13:42:11  <frosch123>  /* 1 more possible memory-primitives */ <- more weird limitations :p
13:42:42  <Alberth> yep :p
13:43:14  <Alberth> related to the 4bit var and 4bit file format stored in 1 byte
13:50:31  <Lejving> I demand a hell newgrf with stations+objects
13:50:41  <Lejving> someone get o nit
13:52:45  <Alberth> GarryG has lots of objects :)
13:55:33  <Lejving> sounds like a G dude
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13:58:49  <torsan> Hello. How to install openttd on ubuntu 16.04? Will package for 14.04 work?
13:59:08  <frosch123> the generic package will work
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14:00:57  <torsan> thanks, I'll try
14:06:48  <torsan> it works :)
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14:27:58  <andythenorth> the nice thing about nml syntax
14:28:07  <andythenorth> is that mostly you don’t need it to write nml :P
14:28:42  <andythenorth> if I was a better programmer I’d skip the parser modul
14:28:54  <andythenorth> import nml modules
14:29:01  <andythenorth> and generate the tree directly
14:31:17  <Markk> Aaah, I've really missed OpenTTD. Because of some computer issues I wasn't able to play anything for the last year, but now it's fixed and I've really catched up!
14:31:57  <Markk> Started a new save for 5 days ago, and every evening I've played and made this progress:
14:32:00  <Markk> :D
14:32:40  <andythenorth> no FIRS :P
14:32:48  <andythenorth> “All must FIRS"
14:32:50  <andythenorth> :P
14:33:05  <Markk> Nope
14:33:08  <Markk> Just stock
14:33:33  <Markk> I've had some other trains and airplanes before, but now it's just stock.
14:34:30  <Markk> Mosly because it's what I'm used to. First 4-5 years or so I wasn't really aware of the NewGRF stuff.
14:35:13  <Markk> And now I kinda prefer the stock grf :)
14:35:19  <andythenorth> fair
14:35:55  <Markk> I'm more for building nice looking tracks and station layouts then caring so much about what I'm transporting.
14:36:21  <Markk> My OCD likes when tracks both look nice and are efficient.
14:38:42  <andythenorth> my OCD won’t talk to me anymore, I’m too untidy
14:38:49  <Markk> :>
14:39:15  <Markk> You'll have to kiss and make up.
14:39:33  <Markk> See if it still likes you or just want a divorce.
14:39:47  <Markk> I would love to get an divorce from my OCD.
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14:49:54  <Alberth> Could try opengfx+     looks like stock, with some nice extras
14:51:27  <Lejving> brix
14:53:09  <Alberth>   I just love the random things that happen if the game fails to find the right FIRS version :)
14:53:24  <andythenorth> that’s quite effective
14:53:30  <andythenorth> I should make an industry like that
14:53:39  <andythenorth> usually it’s mine winding wheels
14:54:01  <Alberth> I have those too, I think, but they're too common
14:55:46  <Alberth> haha, steel factory from alcohol to fish :p
14:57:53  <Markk> Alberth: hm, that looks quite nice, I don't mean the graphics, just the idea of a bit more advanced goods handling and transporting.
14:58:03  <Markk> Alberth: I'll have to look into firs a bit more :)
14:58:20  <andythenorth> FIRS has basic economies
14:58:28  <andythenorth> but it’s quite a change from default gameplay
14:58:40  <Markk> I can imagine
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15:00:32  <supermop> yo
15:01:10  <andythenorth> lo supermop
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15:12:40  <Alberth> make sure you start with the basic economies, it avoids getting very much lost
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15:17:09  <andythenorth> ach that reminds me
15:17:18  <andythenorth> I have to test Arctic Basic again
15:17:23  * andythenorth added pulpwood 
15:17:43  <andythenorth> Markk:
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15:24:28  <Markk> andythenorth: Ah, danke schön, mate!
15:25:20  <andythenorth> Temperate Basic is the most approachable
15:25:23  <Wolf01> :o
15:25:32  <andythenorth> Arctic Basic is a bit weird and has been reworked, but not released yet
15:25:52  <andythenorth> Tropic Basic is fine, but mostly food
15:26:05  <Markk> Mkay
15:26:11  <andythenorth> ach you have to have vehicle grfs as well though :P
15:26:13  * andythenorth forgot that
15:26:13  <Markk> I prefer temperate overall
15:27:45  <V453000> Alberth: nice chimneys XD
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15:35:18  <andythenorth>
15:35:43  <Alberth> merry go-around :)
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15:36:08  <andythenorth> testing :P
15:36:32  <andythenorth> those ships are 2 tiles long
15:36:44  <andythenorth> \ / look super short compared to FISH / Squid, but probably better
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15:39:01  <V453000> I like it andythenorth
15:39:03  <supermop> fun boats
15:39:20  <V453000> oh it's meant to be the same sprite XD
15:39:27  <V453000> why don't you make --- shorter?
15:39:38  <V453000> maybe als o|
15:39:51  <andythenorth> dunno
15:39:57  <V453000> the amount of stripes doesn't need to match, y know :D
15:40:06  <andythenorth> it fits the sprite lengths in base set afaict
15:40:26  <andythenorth> seems to be a straight 2:1
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15:40:41  <andythenorth> “the projection is not accurate"
15:44:20  <supermop> at some point, you must abandon foster as your god, andy
15:44:56  <andythenorth> and recode the vehicle lengths? o_O
15:45:08  <supermop> hmm I already feel like I need a third monitor
15:45:41  <supermop> rhino, grasshopper, grasshopper documentation, irc, ...out of space
15:48:02  <Wolf01> 40" 4K monitor and keep everything there
15:49:06  <V453000> no he would just have rhino on fullscreen and masturbate about the line crispiness :D
15:49:33  <supermop> probably
15:49:47  <supermop> except I would have irc on the full screen
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16:02:47  <Alberth> that's why I switched to virtual desktops 20 years ago :)
16:03:47  <Alberth> never running out of empty desktop :)
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16:47:43  <Wolf01> Mmmh, the new mini creator sets are really nice with the modularity
16:47:58  <Wolf01> I already made 2 different boilers for the same cab
16:48:12  <Wolf01> And it's easy to swap them
16:51:41  <V453000> and how many steam engines?
16:51:42  <V453000> G_G
16:54:12  <Wolf01> Made a tender now
16:54:35  <Wolf01> Let's see what happens if I split the tender and a pax car and mix them
16:55:04  <Wolf01> Ahah ugly as fuck
16:58:53  <Wolf01> <- you can build something like this
16:59:09  <Wolf01> I had a set of toys exactly like this
17:23:33  <Wolf01> Also not sure to place 65€ of pick-a-brick :/ Mainly tiles and other small parts to continue my microscale city
17:49:47  * andythenorth thinks save it
17:50:24  <Wolf01> The parts must come in a way or another
17:50:37  <Wolf01> I need them to finish the diorama
17:54:31  <supermop> Wolf01 here is a microscale city for you:
17:54:32  <supermop>
17:54:51  <supermop> messing about making parametric metabolist things
17:54:52  <Wolf01> Not same style :P
17:55:27  <supermop> with enough more parameters I could make a parametric lego city I guess
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17:58:15  <Wolf01> I'm into something like this
17:58:35  <Wolf01> Also andythenorth, forum pm
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20:23:12  <andythenorth> :o
20:23:25  <andythenorth> the default base set ships are more messed up than most sprites
20:23:33  <andythenorth> they are longer in / \ views than – :P
20:25:26  <V453000> XD
20:25:30  <V453000> discovery
20:25:36  <V453000> go sue SF
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20:31:19  <andythenorth> :P
20:31:22  <supermop_> very flat too
20:31:30  <supermop_> to fit under bridges?
20:31:44  <andythenorth> the change of length from \ to – might just be too disjointed??
20:31:44  <andythenorth>
20:31:50  <andythenorth> it’s what trains and RVs do
20:32:56  <supermop_> use the CETS code for gradual ship turns?
20:35:47  <andythenorth> 8 more angles to draw :o
20:36:38  <supermop_> train a computer to do for you
20:39:57  <andythenorth> AI + generative algorithm
20:40:01  <andythenorth> I just pick the best of 10
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22:08:44  <__ln__> can an executive order be anything?
22:12:37  <Eddi|zuHause> it can't be anything that interferes with the rights of congress or the states
22:13:14  <__ln__> interfering with the constitution doesn't seem to be a big issue
22:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but what an executive order can be was continuously expanded over the last, say, 80 years
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22:29:30  <supermop_> __ln__: it is essentially just a memo
22:30:08  <supermop_> so can be on or about anything but may or may not have any real effect, and may or may not be enforceable or constitutional
22:31:15  <supermop_> the muslim ban was effectively a memo saying "this people should not be allowed in" it does not change any law, but because it pertains to agencies that are under the executive branch
22:31:54  <supermop_> it essentially then instructs the officers of those agencies to act according to the direction of the order
22:32:35  <__ln__> nice
22:33:10  <supermop_> the courts can, will, and have found that the action prescribed by the order cannot be executed in a lawful or constitutional manner
22:34:19  <supermop_> however an officer under direction of the order could choose to ignore the court
22:34:41  <supermop_> which is different than appealing the court decision
22:35:25  <supermop_> by ignoring the court that officer is acting unlawfully,
22:36:54  <supermop_> and can be found to be in contempt and indicted
22:37:50  <supermop_> the executive should then remove that officer and comply with the court ruling pending appeal
22:38:06  <supermop_> and federal police should arrest them
22:39:02  <__ln__> the whole muslim ban probably puts officers in an awkward position to say the least
22:39:16  <supermop_> however, the executive could ignore the court, and instruct agencies to not arrest
22:39:45  <supermop_> at which point the supreme court should issue an injunction
22:40:08  <supermop_> 'failing that, congress much impeach an executive acting unlawfully
22:41:00  <supermop_> current congress seems unwilling to impeach (barring one theory), and likely will also ignore supreme court
22:41:27  *** matt11235 has quit IRC
22:42:26  <supermop_> (theory being that Mitch McConnell are goading Trump into acting unconstitutionally, so that at a time convenient to them they can impeach to put Pence or Ryan in charge, who are more aligned with Congressional Republicans)
22:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> the whole muslim ban probably puts officers in an awkward position to say the least <-- this can't possibly be in accordance with the "freedom of religion" part of the constitution
22:49:27  <__ln__> if there was an executive order to reintroduce segregation of races in public transport, would that be ok?
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22:50:18  <Eddi|zuHause> it would violate about any current supreme court ruling
22:56:03  <__ln__> at this point it looks pretty probable that Trump won't stay in office for the whole 4 years
23:02:04  <supermop_> __ln__: i hope he is impeached, but at present it is still difficult to envision it being 'probable' in the near term, even though there is grounds
23:03:06  <supermop_> i think the congressional democrats wont bring a symbolic impeachment yet when it is still so unlikely they will have enough votes to suceed
23:03:17  <Eddi|zuHause> how many presidents have actually been impeached?
23:03:20  <supermop_> 2
23:03:47  <supermop_> neither impeachment resulted in a vote to remove from office
23:04:10  <supermop_> 2.5 if you count nixon, but he resigned before the proceedings started
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23:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> this is a fun map
23:09:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (countries affected by the ban vs. countries where the trump organization has buildings or golf clubs
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23:10:59  <Eddi|zuHause> (also: countries where 9/11 hijackers came from
23:11:24  <glx> and other attackers ;)
23:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: so what about your brand new socialist candidate who has no chances whatsoever?
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23:14:03  <glx> for me it's better than the other candidate
23:15:40  <glx> valls couldn't win in april anyway
23:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well, he sounds a bit like bernie sanders
23:16:51  <__ln__> too bad openttd doesn't have the concept of international flights
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23:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it does have an international airport :
23:17:51  <__ln__> misleading advertising
23:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it does, however, not have the concept of nations
23:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> or countries
23:18:23  <Eddi|zuHause> or whatever
23:18:57  <glx> you could consider towns as coutries
23:19:19  <__ln__> that too is major limitation
23:19:24  <__ln__> + a
23:20:12  <glx> I guess gamescript can do something to simulate countries by grouping towns
23:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried to make something like that once
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23:20:55  <__ln__> also there isn't even an option to build city walls (like in civilization), let alone bigger walls.
23:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> we definitely need city walls in this game.
23:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> things that always get in the way of growing cities
23:22:52  <__ln__> absolutely
23:23:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but that you can't remove because it will upset all the wrong people
23:25:58  <__ln__> fortunately barbarian attacks to cities are very infrequent in openttd
23:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they would be more frequent if you could start in 4000 BC(E)
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23:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> every time we talk about civilization i want to start a game, and that always ends in exactly the same result, somewhere halfway through somebody declares war and i'm absolutely not prepared
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