Log for #openttd on 11th February 2017:
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00:31:26  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:52:36  <Alberth> hi hi
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08:54:27  <Wolf01> Moin
09:10:15  <Alberth> o/
09:11:34  <Arveen|Home> moin moin
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10:16:20  <andythenorth> such
10:20:03  <Wolf01> o/
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14:07:44  <supermop> yo
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14:25:49  <Alberth> o/
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14:35:42  <Dakkus> The construction of the 39 tile long wooden bridge over the baltic sea concluded on 18th March 1900. It is expected to very efficiently reduce the load on the congested Helsinki-Talinn ferry line.
14:36:36  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds realistic
14:38:00  <Dakkus> Indeed it does.
14:38:14  <Dakkus> Obviously Tallinn is the biggest city in Europe.
14:39:05  <Dakkus> The Valga/Valka twin city, the second largest urban area, is a third saller than Tallinn.
14:39:15  <Dakkus> smaller*
14:40:14  <Eddi|zuHause> so, what's actually up with the names Tallinn vs. Reval?
14:40:40  <Dakkus> The age of the city.
14:40:54  <Dakkus> Just like London wasn't originally called London.
14:41:16  <Dakkus> And Cologne wasn't originally called Köln or Cologne.
14:41:17  <Dakkus> Etc.
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14:42:11  <Dakkus> At some point everyone was calling the city Tallinn and then they apparently decided to make it official. If I've understood it correctly.
14:43:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i don't know about "everybody", but i still learned about the city under the name of Reval in the 90s
14:43:17  <Dakkus> Then, to add to this, the German language has retained the old name.
14:43:40  <Dakkus> But since the city is known as Tallinn in all other languages, many Germans call it Tallinn as well.
14:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> and it
14:44:14  <Dakkus> Might have something to do with Estonia and Lavia having been practically part of Germany from around year 1200 to year 1700.
14:44:17  <Eddi|zuHause> 's also called Reval in my game of Europa Universalis IV
14:44:29  <Dakkus> Yeah, because that takes place a long time ago.
14:44:39  <Eddi|zuHause> where it's obviously owned by me (saxony)
14:45:00  <Dakkus> Try moving it to Denmark. Might change its name :)
14:45:16  <Dakkus> EU IV does this - shows different names depending on the ruling realm.
14:45:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there's not going to be a denmark in my world :p
14:45:32  <__ln__> wikipedia implies Reval is the german name for Tallinn
14:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause> not while the von Wettin family controls the strong holy roman empire :p
14:46:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Wettin, btw. is like 10km that way -->
14:46:55  <Dakkus> In the east?
14:47:00  <Dakkus> That's where your arrow is pointing.
14:47:11  <supermop> the arrow is pointing north on my screen
14:47:12  <__ln__> it's clearly pointing west
14:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, east.
14:47:27  <Dakkus> supermop: See, your screen is incorrectly set up.
14:47:32  <Wolf01> North easth here
14:47:36  <Wolf01> East
14:47:44  <Dakkus> Good correction.
14:47:48  <Dakkus> Now everything is fine.
14:50:22  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: Tartu oder Dorpat?
14:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Dörpt?
14:51:19  <__ln__> also possible
14:51:24  <__ln__> Pärnu oder Pernau?
14:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause> don't know where that's supposed to be
14:53:10  <__ln__> western coast of estonia
14:53:17  <Eddi|zuHause> not all areas are represented on this map
14:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> estonia is represented by 3 provinces Narwa, Reval and Ösel (east to west)
14:54:07  <__ln__> "Die Stadt wurde 1251 vom Deutschen Orden gegründet, die Ordensburg um 1265 erstmals erwähnt. Pernau wurde Mitglied der Hanse"
14:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> at least, those are the provinces of estonian culture
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15:07:09  <Dakkus> Eddi|zuHause: Pärnu/Pernau might be a town within one of your territories.
15:07:18  <Dakkus> At least that's how it goes in CK2.
15:08:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Dakkus: sometimes the translation is a bit off, when they changed the names of provinces to names of towns in english, they didn't always apply that same change to german
15:09:13  <Eddi|zuHause> also, the province borders don't always match modern borders
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15:09:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so half of modern estonia is actually in the livland territory
15:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and has latvian culture
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15:36:34  <Dakkus> Eddi|zuHause: Well, in reality it had neither Latvian nor Estonian culture, but Livonian.
15:37:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "culture" is a bit loose term in EU4
15:37:18  <Dakkus> Why?
15:40:48  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they occasionally made some odd choices which don't always make sense
15:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> like riga being prussian culture
15:42:02  <Eddi|zuHause> while all surrounding provinces are of latvian culture
15:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and then prussian is not in the baltic culture group, but in the german
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15:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, sure, it was the teutonic order ruling there, but did that really have an effect on the people living there?
15:46:52  <Eddi|zuHause> especially the culture groups are a bit arbitrary, sometimes just two cultures being close by get put into one culture group
15:47:01  <Eddi|zuHause> like basque being in the spanish culture group
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16:16:59  <Dakkus> Eddi|zuHause: Basque?! :D
16:17:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the basque people live in northern spain and southern france
16:17:46  <Dakkus> Eddi|zuHause: Also, the situation in Riga was such that the city did indeed function mainly in German.
16:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause> like, where the name biscaya
16:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> comes from
16:18:12  <Dakkus> The Latvian language and culture did coexist with German there, but was secondary.
16:18:44  <Dakkus> The countryside, then again, was almost purely Latvian-speaking.
16:19:26  <Dakkus> Latvia and Estonia were very peculiar in how their populations were divided into poor local-speakers and rich Low-German speakers.
16:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> (... also where the ETA terrorists come from)
16:31:17  <Dakkus> That's a bit of a stereotype O.o
16:31:36  <Dakkus> Also, I could understand the Bay of Biscaya thing, but can ETA exist in EU IV?!
16:31:50  <Dakkus> I didn't think their roots are that far in the past.
16:36:46  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the basque people lived there since before the roman times...
16:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> of course ETA itself is newer than that
16:37:16  <Dakkus> Indeed, and that's why I find it weird that they would be grouped together with the Spanish.
16:37:21  <Dakkus> That's just ridiculous.
16:37:29  <Dakkus> But what does ETA have to do with this?
16:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing, just that they were fighting for basque independence (or whatever)?
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16:38:51  <Dakkus> Hey... I've played OTTD for like 12 hours today, feel a bit too stressed for OpenXCom and Widelands refuses to function on my computer. What should I play? :)
16:39:18  <Eddi|zuHause> how can you play ottd for "only" 12 hours and then ask such a question?
16:39:24  <Dakkus> I am weird.
16:39:44  <Dakkus> But, I've been playing OTTD for 12 per day for, well, long enough.
16:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i've registered like 1900 hours in EU4 and haven't finished one single game
16:39:58  <Dakkus> :D
16:40:04  <Dakkus> Sounds familiar :D
16:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> my current game is in 1788, about 30 years to go trying world conquest... but it takes foreeever
16:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm a bit too micromanage-y
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16:45:50  <Dakkus> :)
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17:08:04  <Snail> hey guys, I’ll be trying to compile OTTD with Mac OS Sierra right now...
17:08:10  <Snail> anyone already managed to do so?
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17:26:26  <Snail> hey Andy
17:38:54  <andythenorth> lo Snail
17:39:26  <Snail> hey, I read your message from last December about compiling OTTD on Sierra
17:39:35  <Snail> have you ever had a chance to try?
17:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, my suez canal is done, but it didn't even tell me...
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18:03:42  <andythenorth> Snail: no I don’t have Sierra yet
18:03:46  <andythenorth> chicken / egg
18:03:56  <andythenorth> can’t upgrade OS X if OpenTTD doesn’t work on it
18:03:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm playing this game wrong, many of my vassals have bigger names than me...
18:03:58  <Snail> andythenorth: heh, got it
18:04:32  <andythenorth> but to comply with ISO 27001 (it’s a work computer) I’ll have to upgrade OS  Xsoon
18:04:41  <andythenorth> so eh
18:08:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and your iso 27001 allows you to have openttd on it?
18:09:01  <andythenorth> it’s a managed risk
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18:39:04  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: love eu4
18:39:17  <Sacro> Trying to wipe out the french, or  the ottomans
18:39:26  <Sacro> Or ... the stupid annoying HRE
18:40:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i wiped out the french just now
18:40:24  <Sacro> Poor baguette
18:40:28  <Sacro> My current game is france
18:40:37  <Sacro> Mostly pushing northwards through England
18:40:45  <Sacro> And hoping to become emperor
18:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> working on the ottomans for the last century or so, you just can't bite enough off it fast enough :(
18:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how to become emperor as france, better by diplomacy or by vassalizing some electors?
18:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the advantage of becoming emperor as saxony is that you can vote for yourself :p
18:54:21  * andythenorth should play a game
19:07:17  <Wolf01> I just finished to play a game... I fucked up fallout 4, my last save was 13-game hours ago about at the start of the entire DLC
19:07:55  <Eddi|zuHause> does it not autosave?
19:08:14  <Wolf01> Yes, that's why I fucked up
19:09:28  <Wolf01> You have 3 autosaves, but I used them all up while fast travelling between Commonwealth and Nuka World...
19:10:56  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: being friendly to electors, I had 4 voting for me for a while
19:11:11  <Sacro> But then austria built up IA and that gives +1 opinion per IA
19:11:20  <Sacro> So until the first reform I was stuck behind
19:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you can stack diplorep, that gives like +10
19:13:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and concentrate on the electors that hate austria the most
19:13:26  * andythenorth needs a cargo to deliver to trading posts in Steeltown
19:13:35  <andythenorth> it could have one processing step, or be produced directly
19:13:40  <andythenorth> it must not require ENSP
19:13:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't need to become emperor that early
19:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> if you manage by the 4th reform or so, that's fine
19:13:56  <andythenorth> and it must not require much of anything from the steel chain :P
19:14:05  <andythenorth> it could be a novelty cargo
19:15:32  <andythenorth> slate? o_O
19:15:42  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, don't concentrate on the electors that hate austria. it's better if the votes that don't go to you are split
19:15:42  <andythenorth> needs ENSP :P
19:15:57  <Eddi|zuHause> then you only need 3 electors on your side, if the other 4 are split 2/2
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19:36:42  <markasoftware> andythenorth: is that some modded thing?
19:37:03  <markasoftware> the steeltown?
19:37:30  <andythenorth> it’s in FIRS
19:37:48  <andythenorth> add-on / mod / newgrf / DLC / whatever ;)
19:37:52  <andythenorth> supermop:
19:38:01  <andythenorth> “Ohio ranks 1st in the production of Swiss cheese”
19:38:02  <andythenorth> :P
19:40:16  <Alberth> slate falls nicely in the era that you play :)
19:42:20  <andythenorth> it does
19:42:28  <andythenorth> but I need something that doesn’t require ENSP :)
19:52:12  <andythenorth> probably ‘cheese'
19:57:24  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't ohio like the "milk belt"?
19:57:58  <glx> I think it is if my memory is correct
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20:23:06  <andythenorth> dairy farm -> dairy -> cheese -> trading post
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20:51:22  <supermop> yes
20:51:34  <supermop> eddi no
20:51:59  <supermop> there are some nice small craft cheeses from ohio and plenty of local dairies
20:52:25  <supermop> but it is not nationally known for dairy in the way that minnesota and wisconsin are
20:53:03  <supermop> if it makes the most 'swiss' cheese its not anything famous or remarkable
20:53:10  <supermop> even inside of ohio
20:54:09  <supermop> when I go home to visit my parents there I don't seek out any local cheeses the way I do almost anywhere else
20:55:17  <andythenorth> hmm
20:55:22  <andythenorth> I need some cargo
20:55:27  <andythenorth> could just do goods
20:55:29  <andythenorth> or glassware
20:55:31  <andythenorth> kind of blah
20:55:49  <andythenorth> or I could reverse alcohol, and make it export, not import
20:55:56  <supermop> ohio had some early 20th C glassware that was sort of well known
20:56:17  <supermop> we do brew plenty of beer in ohio too
20:56:24  <supermop> as do the other lakes states
20:56:29  <andythenorth> doesn’t have to be ohio, just seems an obvious place to look for inspiration
20:56:37  <andythenorth> standard grain -> beer?
20:56:42  <andythenorth> nothing unusual?
20:56:47  <supermop> sure
20:56:56  <andythenorth> I don’t have MNSP and don’t want it :P
20:57:09  <andythenorth> but the brewery needs it
20:57:44  <supermop> Columbus has a large historical german brewery district from pre-prohibition
20:58:20  <supermop> today has a huge industrial AB brewery and ton of craft breweries. most lakes state cities are the same
21:00:50  <supermop>
21:00:58  <supermop> propane tanks
21:04:04  <supermop> does it need to be a chain that uses no steel?
21:04:17  <supermop> also beer needs beer cans
21:04:25  <supermop> make mnsp from alu
21:04:51  <andythenorth> preferably no steel
21:04:55  <andythenorth> alu is gone, it’s weird
21:06:58  <supermop> alu for beer cans only
21:08:11  <andythenorth> could be cans + goods
21:08:18  <andythenorth> if I come up with nothing else, I’ll try it
21:09:03  <supermop> I mean I spent better part of 20 years in ohio and I don't know what else to suggest
21:09:11  <supermop> we do have car plants
21:09:26  <andythenorth> so does Steeltown :)
21:09:27  <supermop> proctor and gamble chemicals/soaps
21:09:32  <andythenorth> yeah, soap I looked at
21:09:41  <andythenorth> comes from animal or vegetable fat
21:15:05  <andythenorth> seems goods -> trading post easiest
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21:20:50  <supermop> most farms in northern/western ohio seem to primarily grow grain
21:20:56  <supermop> mostly corn
21:21:13  <supermop> some soy beans too
21:21:43  <andythenorth> think goods -> trading post works fine
21:22:02  <andythenorth> shame limestone can’t be dredged, there are no sea-based industries
21:22:28  <supermop> we get it out of big holes next to the Scioto river
21:23:05  <supermop> no one wants anything dead or alive that was pulled out of lake eire
21:23:41  <supermop>
21:23:49  <supermop> had a key chain from them as a kid
21:24:47  <supermop>
21:25:22  <supermop> for ohio could make vacuum cleaners
21:25:28  <supermop> 'hoovers'
21:25:51  <andythenorth> yes :)
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21:26:11  <supermop> the hoover factory is now hip lofts though
21:26:54  <supermop>
21:27:14  <supermop> now i'm just spamming historic ohio manufacturers
21:28:13  <supermop> maybe there is something in fine chemicals
21:28:23  <supermop> or goods made from fine chemicals
21:28:39  <andythenorth> there is, but I need the chemicals :)
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21:29:37  <supermop> great lakes area does need fields to fill the space between towns
21:29:53  <supermop> and the produce of those fields must go somewhere
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21:35:53  * andythenorth wonders about water industries
21:35:57  <andythenorth> fishing is out, needs MNSP
21:40:04  <supermop> why is this bluebird in england?
21:40:05  <supermop>
21:42:25  <andythenorth> import :)
21:42:32  <supermop> but why
21:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but why not?
21:42:40  <andythenorth> dunno, novelty value?
21:42:49  <andythenorth> should I draw this limestone quarry?
21:42:55  <andythenorth> it’s so geometric
21:43:12  <Eddi|zuHause> some people collect butterflies, some people collect foreign busses
21:44:32  <supermop> that one seems to be in use as a school bus
21:44:46  <supermop> that quarry looks a bit boring
21:44:57  <supermop> the foreground one
21:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> some years ago i saw a bit on TV where a guy wanted to import an american school bus, but then couldn't get it licensed here because the fire exit doors were not up to german specifications
21:46:03  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause an old one?
21:46:15  <supermop> the ones I rode as a kid seemed like something out of the 30s
21:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause> are there ever "new" ones?
21:47:28  <supermop> I think they are cycled through quite rapidly these days, but they still build them with those riveted sheet steel sides
21:48:00  <supermop> and the do have more exist now, and apparently air conditioning
21:48:04  <supermop> exits
21:49:34  <supermop> seems to be they go 1) rich suburban distric/large urban district 2) poor suburban / exurban district, 3) private charter company 4) sitting in someone's front yard who lives in a rural area
21:50:29  <supermop> 5) eccentric European's project?
21:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i think 5 overlaps with 4
21:55:25  <__ln__> i've seen a genuine american school bus over here, with temporary license plates indicating it had been recently imported from abroad
21:57:46  <supermop> why people like those things i'll never know
21:58:22  <supermop> nothing but memories of being car sick etc
22:03:14  <__ln__> there's apparently one that has been converted into an annex of a restaurant: ... but i don't think this is the one i saw, so there's probably another one too.
22:05:26  <andythenorth>
22:10:35  <andythenorth> non-ferrous metals -> coin mint -> coins -> trading post
22:10:36  <andythenorth> :P
22:19:33  <andythenorth> bed also
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22:25:49  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: europeans only know these things from american movies
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