Log for #openttd on 13th February 2017:
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02:04:44  <Wolf01> 'night
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09:34:08  <Wolf01> o/
09:35:51  <crem> \o
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12:17:03  <Wolf01> Bah, hdd fan is noisy, I'll change it
12:17:06  <Wolf01> BBL
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12:19:25  <crem> Isn't it a luxury for a HDD to have a personal fan?
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12:20:01  <Anty> Hi
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12:25:09  <Wolf01> Well... clearly I don't have the spare fan
12:26:31  <Wolf01> The only size it's missing in my trash drawer
12:26:48  <__ln__> the Wolf01 fan club
12:26:53  <Wolf01> Yeah
12:27:32  <Wolf01>
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12:52:41  <Alkel_U3> Well, after another HDD kicking the bucket I gave them a fan, although all four drives have to share. The 20°C drop on them at low rpm is well worth it, I think
12:53:55  <Alkel_U3> but I bought the wrong size, so it's anchored only on 1 screw (I really thought the case supports 140mm but it doesn't)
12:55:23  <Wolf01> The fan I removed was 80mm on a 100mm support, with only 1 screw too, I think it started to make noise because of that
12:56:49  <Alkel_U3> yeah, the pulsing noise from that is kinda annoying
12:56:49  <crem> noise is more important than hdd well-being.
12:57:57  <Wolf01> Let's talk about it, I would like to not download again 1.5TB of steam games if the HDD fails
12:58:18  <Alkel_U3> I had to get rid of a defective jet-engine-like GPU so it's still practically quite in comparison :-)
12:59:20  <Alkel_U3> and I would like to not have to recover the photos directory with ddrescue and testdisk, but that's completely my fault for not backing that up
13:00:31  <crem> steam games (and movies, music, etc, although I think nowadays people don't store them) are not things to be worried about.  Losing unique data is worse, but that's what backup is for.
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13:01:38  <Wolf01> That's why I have a NAS and a backup HDD too, but since I have shitty(tm)-connection I would literally take AGES to download some games
13:03:02  <crem> Local backup is more risky than one might think. :) And not only because of things like house burning odwn.
13:03:05  <Alkel_U3> 1.5 TB of games? Well, that's a lot. I can see myself topping out at around 600 GB if I were on windows.
13:03:24  <crem> I lost all my local backups once when I divorced. :)
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13:25:19  <Wolf01> DAMn
13:46:06  <Alkel_U3> has it breached already?
13:46:30  <crem> This 'live' thing is from yesterday.
13:52:36  <Alkel_U3> ah, so it hasn't. Well, that's good.
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15:16:07  <Wolf01> Wake me up when the other animal fellows arrive
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15:42:34  <supermop__> is andy an animal?
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15:42:52  <Alberth> hi hi
15:44:09  <andythenorth> all arrive at once
15:44:39  * andythenorth has Steeltown woes still
15:44:52  <andythenorth> I should call it Steeltown Blues :D
15:45:11  <Wolf01> o/
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15:47:10  <Alberth> changes didn't work out?
15:49:56  <andythenorth> nah
15:50:11  <andythenorth> I am being cautious because my test games have SV
15:50:13  <andythenorth> but eh
15:50:46  <andythenorth> in all my games, I needed all the mines on the map just to get enough steel for ENSP to boost the mines
15:51:01  <andythenorth> and the boost wasn’t enough
15:51:24  <andythenorth> feeding the blast furnace chain is kind of like feeding a black hole
15:51:54  <Alberth> :o
15:52:40  <Alberth> and I haven't even considered supplies so far :p
15:53:01  <andythenorth> the other problem is that steel has multiple destinations :)
15:53:09  <Alberth> but trains aren't very powerful either
15:53:10  <andythenorth> but cdist doesn’t work well with multiple destinations
15:53:27  <Alberth> ha :)
15:53:35  * andythenorth biab
15:53:42  <Alberth> see you
15:53:44  <Wolf01> Wasn't that the goal of cdist?
15:53:47  <andythenorth> no
15:53:53  <andythenorth> not afaik :)
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15:54:20  <Alberth> I don't really see the problem, it just means you must make a choice where the steel goes to
15:54:27  <Wolf01> Then I should look again at the definition of distribution
15:54:55  <Alberth> maybe andy just likes having automagic transfer orders
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17:04:59  <Alberth> lo andy
17:05:10  <andythenorth> o/
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17:13:15  * andythenorth needs to get quicklime without coal
17:13:29  <andythenorth>
17:21:45  <andythenorth> both coal and stone are too contended
17:22:06  <andythenorth> I could increase the industry production rates substantially...
17:23:13  <andythenorth> chemicals is also very contended
17:23:39  <andythenorth> coal: two destinations, both essential to steel chain
17:23:49  <andythenorth> stone: two destinations, both essential to steel chain
17:24:16  <andythenorth> chemicals: four destinations, useful for ENSP chain
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17:31:09  <Wolf01> Quak
17:31:47  <frosch123> moi
17:32:30  <Wolf01> frosch123, I wrote some questions about NRT in SE
17:32:31  <Wolf01>
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17:35:12  * andythenorth ponders
17:35:16  <andythenorth> could....
17:35:30  <andythenorth> - try and reset the probabilities to give more mines, but likely to fail on small maps
17:35:58  <andythenorth> - cut out the hotels, building yards, stores etc from towns, as they consume a lot of the available industry count
17:36:14  <andythenorth> - make more cargos available at ports (import quicklime?  Unrealism, but eh)
17:36:46  <andythenorth> - ignore some realism in required cargos at blast furnace, steel plant
17:39:28  <supermop_> as for last one, isn't bessemer process rivet counting the whole point of steeltown?
17:39:36  <andythenorth> kind of
17:39:43  <andythenorth> but it’s a ballache to actually play, eh? :)
17:39:46  <supermop_> hotel/store etc gets a bit redundant
17:39:50  <andythenorth> lessons in reality never work in FIRS
17:40:17  <supermop_> hotels easy passenger bootstrapping for $
17:41:25  <andythenorth> +1
17:41:33  <supermop_> but then the passenger flow distracts from building up industries because you've got thousands of morons trying to go to a resort on the outskirts of a shitty village overlooking a slag heap
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17:41:40  <andythenorth> could cut the coke oven, it’s wasteful of coal
17:41:52  <andythenorth> 8t in = 6t out
17:41:57  <supermop_> steelmaking uses a lot of coal
17:42:19  <supermop_> i'd say burning it in power plants wastes coal that could be making steel
17:42:30  <andythenorth> I could cut food chain, but then Arctic and Tropic are borked
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17:43:04  <supermop_> cutting a chain in steeltown needn't cut in tropic?
17:43:05  <V453000> iz?
17:43:57  <andythenorth> can still use Steeltown in Tropic though eh?
17:44:05  <andythenorth> FIRS economy != climate :)
17:44:11  <andythenorth> V453000: iz mess
17:44:12  <andythenorth> fixing
17:44:18  <andythenorth> also dinner time soon
17:44:35  <V453000> mess is nice
17:44:49  <andythenorth> iz boring to play
17:44:58  <andythenorth> especially with cdist
17:45:23  <andythenorth> cdist max 2 destinations per pickup station
17:45:26  <supermop_> andythenorth: tropic needn't have grocery stores
17:45:52  <supermop_> andythenorth: you can kind of get a few more but its tough
17:45:53  <andythenorth> making >1 pickup stations per industry is hard, when also has big delivery station
17:46:05  <andythenorth> supermop_: > 2 just doesn’t work
17:46:08  <andythenorth> like, not working
17:46:16  <supermop_> max 2 pick up stations per industry is the killer
17:46:20  * andythenorth has tested much times
17:46:28  <supermop_> industry will give zero cargo to 3rd station
17:46:41  <andythenorth> this is all fine if you use ships :P
17:46:46  <andythenorth> ships only = no problem :P
17:46:53  <andythenorth> with trains, problem
17:47:06  <supermop_> industry won't serve 3 docks
17:47:50  <andythenorth> fair point
17:49:02  * andythenorth biab
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18:01:52  <frosch123> Wolf01:
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18:24:56  <Wolf01> Ok, so in SE it whould be a bland copy of the normal toolbar
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20:19:14  <andythenorth> supermop: drop the hotel? o_O
20:19:21  <andythenorth> it’s kind of a FIRS trademark :P
20:19:29  * andythenorth thinks it should go from steeltown
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20:19:50  <supermop__> from steeltown? who wants to vacation in youngstown
20:19:56  <andythenorth> yair
20:20:01  <andythenorth> businessmen?
20:20:19  <frosch123> people with a secret weakness for steel?
20:20:23  <andythenorth> :P
20:20:24  <andythenorth> or coke
20:20:31  <supermop__> the hotel is nice as a combined blackhole for food and alcohol, but store can do that
20:20:34  * andythenorth can drop alcohol
20:20:47  <supermop__> opiods?
20:20:53  <supermop__> opioids
20:21:19  <andythenorth> coke, slag, heroin?
20:21:41  <supermop__> oxy
20:23:39  <andythenorth> vehicle dealer will never be used
20:23:45  <andythenorth> vehicles can be traded for other things
20:23:52  <andythenorth> no point sending to a black hole
20:24:21  * andythenorth rips it all down
20:27:17  <supermop__> black holes only needed if towns can't process town cargos
20:28:35  <supermop__> even then, if i play a game where gasoline is needed for town growth, i might build a machine shop in town
20:29:16  <andythenorth> so just black holes for food
20:29:22  <andythenorth> and goods, because it’s no harm
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20:31:01  <supermop__> 'store'
20:31:12  <supermop__> does both
20:31:17  <andythenorth> yup
20:31:22  * andythenorth waits for bundles to build new docs
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20:41:45  <andythenorth> could run the lime kiln on fuel oil
20:41:51  <andythenorth> saving coal for iron chain
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20:45:02  <supermop__> would be weird in ohio or yorkshire
20:46:01  <andythenorth> yeahbut
20:46:30  <andythenorth> :)
20:49:40  <andythenorth> eh, the vehicles chain is too intricate
20:49:54  <andythenorth> is it steeltown or motown? :P
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21:11:30  <supermop__> motown=/steeltown
21:20:46  <andythenorth> there will be no other vehicle economy
21:20:48  <andythenorth> so eh
21:20:58  * andythenorth wondering what to cut
21:23:34  <andythenorth> ah building materials
21:23:35  <andythenorth> can go :)
21:23:36  <andythenorth> yay
21:24:29  <supermop__> yeagh
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21:27:01  <andythenorth> more variety
21:27:05  <andythenorth> less blah
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21:37:50  <supermop__> bdmt always feel a bit odd unless a GS is needing them
21:40:45  * andythenorth trying to strip town cargos out of steeltown
21:40:52  <andythenorth> some irony probably
21:42:54  <andythenorth> supermop: vehicles currently require: vehicle parts, powertrain components, vehicle bodies
21:42:59  <andythenorth> seems a bit blah blah
21:43:09  <supermop__> strip the town cargos out from 1970 onwards - when the rustbelt economy collapses and people cannot afford town cargos anymore
21:43:14  <andythenorth> :P
21:43:28  * andythenorth considers ‘abandoned steel plant’ industry
21:43:33  <andythenorth> accepts: crack cocaine
21:43:37  <andythenorth> produces: nothing
21:43:39  <andythenorth> black hole
21:43:53  <supermop__> whoa now crack is too coastal elite for steeltown
21:43:58  <supermop__> meth maybe
21:44:26  <andythenorth> it was mostly smack where I lived
21:44:28  <andythenorth> coal mining towns
21:44:34  <andythenorth> crack was inner-city
21:44:53  <supermop__> thing is - car plant is the one thing where the more complex inputs seem correct
21:45:11  <supermop__> but lots of inputs at the top of the chain is a bit frustrating maybe?
21:45:22  <andythenorth> it is
21:45:23  <andythenorth> very
21:46:13  <andythenorth> need to decide whether to keep marine supplies
21:46:21  <andythenorth> then I know if powertrain is good cargo or not
21:46:40  <supermop__> im sure it was different in the uk, but here it seemed like the whole economy from the atlantic ocean to the missippi - and by extension the nation - from 1930 to 1970
21:46:54  <supermop__> was to make and sell as many cars as possible
21:47:28  <supermop__> everything from design, town planning, financial services, etc
21:47:34  <supermop__> designed to sell cars
21:47:55  <supermop__> other industries existed just to give households enough $ to buy two cars
21:48:23  <supermop__> USSR built tanks and we built sedans
21:48:48  <andythenorth> sounds about right
21:49:24  <supermop__> CAD and NURBS / b splines were developed to make curvy sexy cars
21:50:22  <supermop__> but the game might not satisfactorily reward you enough for making cars
21:50:54  <andythenorth> it’s more just that you can’t get enough inputs to do it :)
21:51:15  <supermop__> steeltown should reduce passenger payment the more successful you are at producing cars, so you destroy the market for public transportation
21:51:23  <andythenorth> the chain is too long and the wastage / split ratios are quite harsh
21:51:41  <andythenorth> so 1000s of tonnes iron / coal / stone go into the chain
21:51:48  <andythenorth> and 200t of ENSP comes out
21:52:07  <supermop__> can you inport car parts?
21:52:44  <andythenorth> maybe
21:52:54  <andythenorth> making the parts is ok, can use rubber and stuff
21:53:18  <andythenorth> but need to split iron -> powertrain and iron -> steel -> vehicle bodies
21:53:37  <andythenorth> or scrap -> steel -> vehicle bodies (but scrap yards are low output)
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21:58:05  <andythenorth> supermop: ‘vehicle bodies’?  Or something else?
21:58:10  <andythenorth> ‘body panels’?
21:58:20  <andythenorth> ‘pressed steel’?
21:58:32  <andythenorth> ‘Galvanised steel parts'?
21:58:47  <supermop__> bodies most generic
21:59:08  <supermop__> are you asking what to call it, or what it should be?
21:59:22  <andythenorth> what to call it
21:59:33  <andythenorth>
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22:06:39  <supermop__> stamped steel
22:06:55  <supermop__> pressed is fine too
22:07:22  <supermop__> appending 'parts' or 'panels' would be fine too
22:07:48  <andythenorth> think I’ll leave it as vehicle bodies for now
22:07:58  <andythenorth> ‘vehicle bodies’ looks similar to ‘vehicle parts’
22:08:02  <supermop__> in melb i would always see adds for jobs as a 'panel beater'
22:08:11  <andythenorth> but ‘pressed steel’ looks like ‘steel’
22:08:12  <andythenorth> so eh :P
22:08:24  <supermop__> which i assumed was someone who operated a hydraulic press
22:08:56  <supermop__> but i liked to imagine as a man beating car panels into shape with a hammer against a wooden form
22:09:17  <supermop__> 'stamped panels'?
22:10:03  <andythenorth> maybe
22:10:08  <andythenorth> comes from ‘metal finishing plant’ now
22:10:13  <andythenorth> along with ‘pipe’
22:10:40  <supermop__> im not sure what the official US english term is, but i always think of the machine that forms the panel as a 'press'
22:10:50  <andythenorth> sounds right to me
22:10:53  <supermop__> and the action of forming it as 'stamping'
22:11:24  <supermop__> i never worked in a car factory though so i may be way off base
22:11:55  <supermop__> we call lots of tools 'presses' here
22:12:08  <supermop__> the thing that folds sheet metal is a press brake
22:12:32  <supermop__> put holes in the metal with a drill press
22:12:41  <andythenorth> such pressing
22:12:52  <andythenorth> maybe ‘powertrain components’ has to go
22:13:01  <andythenorth> splitting pig iron might be bad
22:13:14  <supermop__> transmissions?
22:13:29  <andythenorth> currently mostly engine blocks
22:13:31  <supermop__> is getting a bit esoteric/motown specific at that point
22:13:37  <andythenorth> iron + non-ferrous metals = powertrain
22:13:44  <andythenorth> could do without it tbh
22:14:07  <supermop__> i appreciate that there is a distinction between rolled, drawn, and cast products
22:14:11  <supermop__> but idk
22:15:00  <supermop__> cast metal is worth it to see crucibles of molten metal about
22:15:12  <supermop__> if you dont get to see it, not sure it is fun
22:15:29  <andythenorth> currently don’t see it
22:15:42  <andythenorth> also ‘powertrain’ is just ‘vehicle parts’ maybe
22:15:42  <supermop__> IH metal cars?
22:15:57  <andythenorth> yes IH metal cars carry the pig iron
22:16:10  <supermop__> yeah an engine is definitely in the realm of a 'part'
22:16:30  <supermop__> unless parts is specifically headlights and plastic
22:16:43  <supermop__> if it is alternators, should be engines too
22:18:19  <andythenorth> that means all pig iron now goes to basic oxygen furnace
22:18:25  <andythenorth> probably better
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22:40:04  <andythenorth> supermop: stripped it right back
22:40:09  <andythenorth> should be more fun now
22:41:06  <supermop__> non-ferrous metals just sort of hanging out there
22:41:19  <andythenorth> oops
22:41:25  <andythenorth> forgot to remove that :)
22:46:40  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:48:12  * andythenorth also
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