Log for #openttd on 20th February 2017:
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00:09:15  <Wolf01> 'night
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08:19:56  <V453000> puny humanz'
08:20:03  <V453000> morning have good
08:20:04  <V453000> or else
08:20:14  <Supercheese> ya
08:20:21  <Supercheese> Have indeed good
08:21:07  <V453000> g
08:21:14  <V453000> do you even automate?
08:21:36  <Supercheese> Yes, Otto is my mate
08:22:08  <V453000> dayummm
08:22:40  <V453000> some new mods comin?
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11:25:01  <Wolf01> Moin
11:29:39  <Wolf01> eh, they will go skynet in microseconds
11:31:01  <__ln__> that would be more interesting if it was properly sourced
11:31:29  <Wolf01>
11:34:35  <Wolf01> Three laws of robotic needed as soon as possible
11:34:39  <__ln__> they should adapt it to be an openttd AI
11:35:28  <Wolf01> It's already pointing on starcraft, just to learn some warfare strategies
11:37:24  <Wolf01> Btw, it seem that intelligence brings to war, which is a nonsense
11:38:17  <crem> I hoped they finally they built a robor which can gather real apples from tree. But no, it's just some pixels on 8x16 screen.
11:39:03  <Wolf01> The principle is the same, we played with 320x200 games and even inferior resolution :P
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14:21:15  <Alkel_U3> Wolf01:
14:23:59  <Wolf01> Wtf?
14:29:17  <Alkel_U3> in relation to that google's AI :-)
14:37:34  <Wolf01> It's too psychedelic, I can't follow it
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16:12:37  <dark_pingus> hi I'm looking for documentation on scenario file. I am interested to the structure of scenario file.
16:17:54  <Wolf01>;a=tree;f=docs;hb=HEAD you can find some docs here
16:20:00  <dark_pingus> thank you
16:21:57  <Alberth> o/
16:22:02  <Wolf01> o/
16:22:20  <dark_pingus> Wolf01, seems that the link had a lot of info! so probably you have really helped me! thank you again
16:23:09  <Alberth> not so much about the scenario file format
16:23:29  <Alberth> it's just a savegame, docs is the code, in src/saveload
16:23:43  <Wolf01> You should read it while looking at the code, at least it explains what are the numbers :P
16:24:43  <dark_pingus> yes ... these numbers was driving me mad ... I was trying somekind of reverse engineering ... using simple scenario and building a "road" at time...
16:25:42  <dark_pingus> I want to realize a tool to put a "city" in a given place in the scenario in an automatic way. BUT: proportionally to lat and long...
16:26:36  <LordAro> sounds like you want a gamescript
16:27:21  <Alberth> there is a patch "reproducable <something> generation" that also aims to create scenarios
16:27:31  <Alberth> hi hi sirt Aro
16:27:33  <Alberth> *sir
16:27:56  <Wolf01> He's a Sith
16:28:07  <Alberth> :O
16:28:09  <LordAro> :o
16:28:19  <LordAro> o/
16:28:31  <Alberth> unexpected qualities, just like that :)
16:30:30  <Wolf01> <- I always said that
16:32:22  <Alberth> ha, we didn't leave bugs, you are affected by cosmic rays, or energy fields :)
16:33:04  <Wolf01> Or "you are holding it with the wrong hand", that works too
16:33:12  <Alberth> lol
16:36:00  <Alberth> I once read about error rates of cpus, I think, and while it was above 99.9<something>, given the high rate of these devices, you'd expect that errors do creep in sometimes
16:36:29  <Alberth> (likely it had more 9 figures :p )
16:36:40  <Alberth> *digits
16:37:44  <dark_pingus> LordAro I want to realize something that given a scenario with given  lat e long, and a file of lat-long and name it puts the cities on the scenario ...
16:38:25  <LordAro> i think a GS should be able to do that
16:38:37  <LordAro> probably can't take an arbitrary file as input though
16:39:02  <Wolf01> As I studied electronics, and knowing that IRL nothing works like a charm, it's more like an over-voltage of any kind, maybe even a bad ground connection and the bit-shift was triggered with a static from a guy with a pullover/pile jacket
16:39:33  * LordAro shifts Wolf01
16:39:49  * Wolf01 static-stabs LordAro
16:40:49  * LordAro dies
16:41:11  <Wolf01> Nah, just paralyzed
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17:18:28  <dark_pingus> someone has other hints about the load/save code documentation ?
17:22:52  <Wolf01> The savegame/scenario might be compressed
17:23:49  <Wolf01> But if you don't need to use it outside the game...
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17:33:25  <dark_pingus> I have disabled compression to "none" in openttd.cfg
17:34:07  <dark_pingus> So, now I can use an hex editor to see save/scenario file contents
17:42:24  <Alberth> sounds a bit complicated if you can also read the source code
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17:44:38  <dark_pingus> yeah I am just reading source code ...
17:44:47  <dark_pingus> (use the source luke! :-) )
17:45:16  <dark_pingus> but really I will love to have some nice documentation to read :-)
17:47:03  <dark_pingus> or maybe some nice comment embedded into the source code ! :-)
17:49:38  <Alberth> it's not a simple offset format
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17:50:08  <Alberth> it's also not a fixed format, it changes every now and then
17:50:32  <Alberth> fields change or get added or get removed
17:50:53  <dark_pingus> Hi Alberth are you telling me that the scenario/save game format are unstable ?
17:51:12  <dark_pingus> are changing from a version to next one ?
17:51:28  <planetmaker> yes. Even more often
17:51:32  <planetmaker> good evening :)
17:51:39  <dark_pingus> good evening ...
17:51:44  <Wolf01> We are at version 195 actually iirc :P
17:51:48  <dark_pingus> wow... :-(
17:51:52  <planetmaker> ^^ around that, yes
17:52:09  <Alberth> extern const uint16 SAVEGAME_VERSION = 195; ///< Current savegame version of OpenTTD.   <-- dark_pingus we're at version 195
17:52:10  <planetmaker> but it's all documented in the source. And also how it changes
17:52:16  <Alberth> see saveload.cpp, line 267
17:52:20  <Alberth> hi hi planetmaker!
17:52:32  <dark_pingus> Can I ask why you/they are changing format so often ?
17:52:39  <Alberth> new features
17:53:23  <dark_pingus> ok but I have seen "object" hooks into the code ... I was figuring that in a such way you can stabilize the format...
17:53:28  <Alberth> not to mention it's a save game, so it follows the internal storage format of openttd
17:53:44  <Alberth> so you pretty much have to rebuild a lot of openttd
17:54:04  <dark_pingus> And now are three hour that I am reading code to look for the internal format! :-)
17:54:11  <planetmaker> why? A stable format itself is no gain
17:54:37  <planetmaker> What we have is the 'promise' that we load savegames from all older versions
17:54:39  <Alberth> a loader and saver routine exists, it's openttd
17:54:56  <dark_pingus> planetmaker, why are you telling me so'? I am customed to have developing version and stable version ...
17:55:06  <planetmaker> yes, of the programme
17:55:29  <dark_pingus> if you can't port your data from a version to the next one
17:55:37  <planetmaker> we can and do
17:55:43  <dark_pingus> this seems to me a bad thing
17:56:02  <dark_pingus> a really bad one.
17:56:12  <planetmaker> you fail to explain why :)
17:56:14  <Alberth> old versions get loaded and converted in afterload
17:56:29  <dark_pingus> Alberth ok
17:56:32  <planetmaker> what's bad about changing savegame format if we can load any version we ever created?
17:57:07  <Alberth> it's not simple, probably :)
17:57:12  <dark_pingus> planetmaker: nothing if you maintain compatibility with the data previuosly saved
17:57:28  <planetmaker> we do. And even beyond the start of this project into prehistoric age
17:57:41  <Alberth> all the way back to 200<something>
17:58:03  <dark_pingus> ok this is good... I have misunderstood your words .
17:58:10  <Alberth> as well as the original game
17:58:21  <dark_pingus> THIS IS AN IDEA!
17:58:35  <Alberth> no it's 4 words :)
17:58:36  <dark_pingus> I can start to read the initial version...
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17:58:49  <dark_pingus> probably is more simple
17:58:51  <Alberth> quak
17:59:08  <Alberth> my guess is, it's more confusing
17:59:08  <dark_pingus> quak!:-)
17:59:08  <Wolf01> Quak
17:59:16  <frosch123> moi
17:59:40  <Alberth> dark_pingus:   look at a few commits that change the line I indicated
17:59:54  <Alberth> that should give you a good idea how changes are handled
18:02:01  <dark_pingus> true
18:05:21  <dark_pingus> nice ...
18:05:43  <dark_pingus> I will google to look for external tools to manage the scenarios :-(
18:11:59  <Alberth> search
18:13:11  <dark_pingus> thank you!
18:13:34  <Alberth> but basically, there is only openttd that reads/writes save games and scenarios
18:13:50  <Alberth> there are patches for openttd, and probably a few game scripts
18:20:14  <dark_pingus> I see :-(
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18:20:45  <dark_pingus> se seems that to have an object automatically placed on map, I have to :
18:21:14  <dark_pingus> get the loadsave ccp
18:21:24  <dark_pingus> understand it
18:21:44  <dark_pingus> then understand the resulting data structure
18:22:05  <dark_pingus> and you have told me that these things change frequently ...
18:22:18  <dark_pingus> :-(
18:22:41  <dark_pingus> I would daresay that I am unfortunate! :-)
18:24:07  <frosch123> openttd savegame are not self-descriptive
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18:24:31  <frosch123> you cannot make a tool that can process all savegames there may ever be
18:24:43  <frosch123> only openttd can read its savegames, noone else
18:24:57  <planetmaker> o/
18:25:04  <planetmaker> it's an idea which frequently surfaces, though
18:25:06  <dark_pingus> yes I want it but I have found really few docs ...
18:25:07  <frosch123> a rare planetmaker :)
18:25:45  <frosch123> dark_pingus: <- that is as much as you can get
18:25:45  <dark_pingus> well now I have some other things to do ... but thank you all!
18:28:05  <dark_pingus> thank you frosch123
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18:36:26  <frosch123> damn... now there is a second submission for the title game
18:36:34  <frosch123> i hopes we could get away without having to vote
18:37:27  <frosch123> meh, and it's close to the troll submission :/
18:38:32  <Alberth> :(
18:39:38  <planetmaker> :(
18:43:22  <frosch123> well, forum poll it is then
18:43:51  <frosch123> no secret vote, but good enough
18:45:24  <LordAro> lol
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19:04:45  <Wolf01> Ha! "for the lulz"
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19:18:23  <andythenorth> o/
19:18:32  <Wolf01> o/
19:23:02  <Alberth> o/
19:29:46  <Alberth> 0800-0CFF looks like an off-by 100, shouldn't that be 0800-0BFF ?
19:50:11  * andythenorth will count on fingers :P
19:55:26  <frosch123> Alberth: yes :)
19:56:36  <Alberth> :o lots of fingers andy
19:59:16  <planetmaker> millipede or so ;)
19:59:29  <frosch123> Alberth: that was an accident when forking
20:00:06  <frosch123> parallelized pixel pushing
20:01:50  <Alberth> :D
20:04:09  <Alberth> Even milllipede isn't enough, only 750 legs
20:04:14  <Alberth>
20:07:16  <planetmaker> too bad :) But I learnt something new :)
20:09:23  <andythenorth> it’s planetmaker :)
20:10:31  <andythenorth> that title game needs diagonal corners
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20:10:39  <andythenorth> pixel N glyphs are poor :P
20:10:45  <planetmaker> :)
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20:13:23  <andythenorth> meanwhile I recommend this (the song more than the video)
20:16:09  <Alberth> tempted to write  func(void)  instead of func(), written too much C lately :p
20:28:29  <frosch123> maybe try k&r c for once
20:29:09  <Alberth> ha, not old enough :p
20:29:54  <Alberth> ANSI had already taken over C when I learned it
20:30:21  <frosch123> i also only learned it when encounting it in production, and i wondered, why does this even compile :p
20:30:30  <frosch123> +about
20:31:01  <frosch123> i never learned fortran either, but somehow it reminded me about it
20:31:53  * andythenorth is still learning python :P
20:32:01  <andythenorth> devloloper
20:32:19  * andythenorth wishes PHP_CEO was his twitter account :P
20:33:02  <andythenorth>
20:33:26  <planetmaker> is func(void) not good in C++? or talking about python, Alberth ?
20:33:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: anything that writes reserved words in all-uppercase, you can safely ignore
20:34:13  <frosch123> planetmaker: only if you put "extern C" in front :)
20:34:42  * andythenorth should knuckle down and refactor some FIRSes
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20:35:50  <frosch123> he, when comparing a fortran77 tutorial with a fortran95 tutorial.. it mostly seems to differ in upper/lowercase
20:36:01  <__ln__> func(void) is valid in C++ but Stroustrup considers it ugly
20:37:41  <Alberth> planetmaker: I think it's deprecated
20:37:59  <Alberth> Python has no void type :)
20:38:26  <andythenorth> seems FIRS needs incompatible checks for “Preindustrial era houses” and “Oil rig layout"
20:39:37  <Alberth> the former makes sense, presence of FIRS would break the set :)
20:41:14  <andythenorth> definitionally :)
20:41:26  <andythenorth> I probably have to look up the grfids or something
20:41:29  <andythenorth> and put them in a templae
20:41:32  <andythenorth> or template
20:47:33  <planetmaker> I see :) So we did bad stuff when we recently hacked around Arduinos and stuff :P
20:49:34  <V453000> o/
20:51:02  <planetmaker> \o
20:52:33  <Alberth> there are enough C++ versions to choose from :)
20:52:46  <V453000> how are you ?:)
20:53:01  <Alberth> iirc one of the earlier did do that, to stay compatible with C
20:53:18  <Alberth> fine V, thanks, how are you?
20:54:12  <planetmaker> fine as well :) And you? Still drawing factori(o)es
20:54:13  <planetmaker> ?
20:57:14  <V453000> drawing factorioes like mad, it's amazing
20:57:39  <V453000> learning new things every day, can't complain at all
20:58:00  <V453000> I feel fully utilized, we're planning some seriously crazy things visually
20:58:04  <V453000> not slugs though :(
20:58:45  <Alberth> V is slowly turning into a programmer :)
20:59:02  <frosch123> Alberth: i just tried. --std=c++14 still compiles func(void)
20:59:13  <frosch123> no warning either
20:59:34  <Alberth> hmm, sed pattern?  :p
20:59:40  <V453000> yeah, learning a lot of python, mainly blender python but normal python as well, is great
21:00:21  <frosch123> do pythons count as slugs?
21:00:41  <frosch123> or does english have a third term next to snail/slug?
21:01:26  <frosch123> oh, "snake"...
21:01:45  <frosch123> meh, i am too tired or so
21:02:03  <frosch123> they seemed similar :p
21:02:33  <V453000> guess they should yeah
21:02:40  <V453000> it's just longer slug
21:03:29  <planetmaker> hehe
21:19:29  <Alberth> nn
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22:16:22  <__ln__> @seen Gonozal_VIII
22:16:22  <DorpsGek> __ln__: I have not seen Gonozal_VIII.
22:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> today's episode of "we dig up a name from 5 years ago"?
22:23:17  <__ln__> more or less, except DorpsGek was supposed to tell how many years.
22:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> my logs say 2008
22:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and in 2010 DorpsGek already didn't know him
22:27:36  <__ln__> DorpsGek's clearly not an elephant then
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22:46:04  <planetmaker> @seen TrueBrain
22:46:05  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 7 weeks, 1 day, 10 hours, 13 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> LordAro: it is working for me now (tm) :P
22:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause> he was superceded by the bot...
22:46:48  <planetmaker> yeah, I know :|
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23:21:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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