Log for #openttd on 3rd March 2017:
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00:08:13  <Samu> uhm... okay, I concede
00:08:43  <Samu> it's not possible to balance trains by just putting running costs on wagons
00:08:51  <Samu> the vanilla trains
00:10:03  <Samu> but at least they would get running costs
00:10:49  <Samu> i might go on with the patch
00:11:09  <Samu> but give up on the intention to try to balance
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08:40:16  <Samu> hi
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09:31:54  <Wolf01> o/
09:37:10  <crem> \o
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09:46:13  <Wolf01> Meh, some users in the forum are like my father, and I already would like to leave home...
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10:35:12  <Samu> - just posted something explaining why running costs alone won't do it
10:35:25  <Samu> that might demotivate SimYouLater
10:35:59  <peter1138> NewGRFs.
10:36:04  <Wolf01> ^
10:37:09  <Wolf01> Also, you can almost always make an addon for a grf which only changes some values if the newgrf values don't fit your needs
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11:34:49  <Samu> Wolf01: running cost per wagon isn't possible if the wagons used are of varied length, or i don't see what you mean
11:37:55  <Samu> perhaps I see what u mean
11:38:51  <Samu> yeah, looks like it's possible, but it will be even harder to reach that piece of information
11:39:00  <Samu> click train
11:39:03  <Samu> click details
11:39:06  <Samu> click information
11:39:23  <Samu> and there, each wagon would have it's name, it's value and there would be it's running cost
11:39:54  <Samu> it's possible, just a bit harder to get to, though
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11:42:38  <Wolf01> It's far more easy than guessing the cost of the entire consist
11:43:16  <Wolf01> And calculating the cost of the consist from variables which mean nothing
11:43:45  <Wolf01> You can calculate the cost of a plywood based on its length, not the cost of a car based on its length
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12:18:38  <Samu> uh oh... actually not as easy as I first thought
12:19:01  <Samu> it must retrieve the running cost from the vehicle itself, not the engine type
12:19:15  <Samu> even though they're the same, they're not the same
12:19:55  <Wolf01> Why, for the god of wolves sake, you are still trying to get a wagon running cost depending on the engine to which is attached?
12:20:59  <Samu> GetVehicleProperty
12:21:12  <Samu> this function really wants a running_cost_class
12:21:17  <Samu> which I don't have
12:22:52  <Samu> to display the running cost of a wagon that doesn't have a running_cost_class, that is on a vehicle, I really need to use GetVehicleProperty, instead of GetRunningCost
12:23:23  <Samu> I'm screwed
12:23:31  <Samu> unless I simulate a running_cost_class
12:23:43  <Samu> something i've been avoiding all this time
12:25:26  <Samu> let me look at engines.h
12:25:27  <Samu>  brb
12:26:13  <Samu> INVALID_PRICE
12:26:16  <Samu> bah
12:26:30  <Samu> #define RC_S PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_STEAM
12:26:35  <Samu> #define RC_D PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_DIESEL
12:26:41  <Samu> #define RC_E PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_ELECTRIC
12:26:46  <Samu> #define RC_W INVALID_PRICE
12:26:51  <Samu> RC_W is for wagons
12:28:19  <Samu> if I create a PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_WAGON, i bet i'll be destroying all NewGRFs
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12:28:50  <Samu> what would be the BasePrice
12:28:57  <Samu> heh... so screwed
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12:37:25  <Wolf01> if (e->u.rail.running_cost_class == INVALID_PRICE) cost_factor = GetVehicleProperty(v, PROP_TRAIN_COST_FACTOR, e->u.rail.cost_factor) * something;
12:37:45  <peter1138> ini files
12:37:50  <peter1138> xmL!
12:41:38  <Wolf01> Also, you should calculate the running costs of a wagon when starting the game and caching them
12:42:39  <Samu> CAN'T CACHE THAT
12:42:41  <Samu> oops caps
12:42:51  <Samu> it must be retrieved from the vehicle itself
12:43:05  <Wolf01> Make it possible, don't whine
12:43:29  <Samu> a game doesn't start with vehicles already built
12:43:40  <Samu> it must look at "your" vehicle
12:43:43  <Wolf01> But the game starts with vehicle definitions
12:44:41  <Samu> nars, uses a different running cost for trains that are stopped
12:44:51  <Samu> the train must exist
12:44:55  <Samu> be in the map
12:45:03  <Wolf01> Wtf cares about nars, you are changing vanilla wagons
12:45:28  <Samu> yes, but i don't want to break other things
12:45:31  <Wolf01> If you break newgrf details it's your fault
12:48:08  <Wolf01> Also you want to add running costs to wagons? Go to engine.h line 400 and below
12:48:59  <Samu> i could do that, but then the cost would become a fixed value, no longer dependant on the engine
12:49:15  <Wolf01> Still with this bad idea...
12:49:45  <Wolf01> The cost must be fixed
12:52:52  <Samu> SetDParam(2, GetVehicleProperty(v, PROP_TRAIN_RUNNING_COST_FACTOR, v->GetEngine()->u.rail.running_cost));
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12:53:08  <Samu> let's see what happens
12:54:06  <Wolf01> Sticks screwdriver in power plug: "let's see what happens"
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12:54:56  <Samu> oopsie
12:55:07  <Samu> i need a GetPrice too
12:55:22  <Samu> that means, a cost_factor, oh boy, i think it's time to give up
12:55:39  <Wolf01> Look at what you need and do a plan
12:57:53  <Samu> SetDParam(2, GetPrice(v->GetEngine()->u.rail.running_" target="_blank">u.rail.running_cost_class, GetVehicleProperty(v, PROP_TRAIN_RUNNING_COST_FACTOR, v->GetEngine()->u.rail.running_" target="_blank">u.rail.running_cost), v->GetEngine()->GetGRF()));
12:58:00  <Samu> rip readability
12:58:35  <Wolf01> What if you add a prop for wagons?
12:59:26  <Samu> also wrong, i need something else over GetPrice, i am so bad
13:03:16  <Samu> GetDisplayRunningCost
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13:03:56  <Samu> nevermind, i give up
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13:06:33  <Wolf01> I changed 4 lines of code and I have running costs
13:06:55  <Wolf01>
13:07:27  <Samu> Wolf01: the magician
13:07:46  <Wolf01> Maybe I even messed up grfs, but it works and it is consistent
13:09:08  <Samu> that wasn't where I was putting the running costs
13:09:18  <Samu> it was on vehicle detail / information tab
13:09:27  <Wolf01>
13:13:18  <Samu> heh, I really wonder what happens with a newgrf mixed up with that
13:13:26  <Samu> probably "bad stuff"
13:13:47  <Wolf01> Try
13:14:02  <Samu> ok.
13:16:31  <Wolf01> Meh, why 3 hours for a branch merge?
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13:21:59  <Samu> Severity	Code	Description	Project	File	Line	Suppression State Error	C2118	negative subscript	openttd	D:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\engine.cpp	67
13:22:05  <Samu> can't compile what u did
13:22:55  <Wolf01> Make a patch and compare, so you can see where the error is
13:24:56  <Samu> retrying
13:25:06  <Samu> brb
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13:27:36  <Samu> nop
13:27:39  <Samu> negative subscript
13:28:30  <Wolf01> With grfs?
13:29:44  <Samu> no, with compiling
13:30:28  <Wolf01> I think you missed something, like a comma or even an enum item
13:31:22  <Samu> no, i just copy pasted your diff
13:31:26  <Samu> then applied
13:31:29  <Samu> to trunk
13:31:33  <Samu> doesn't work
13:31:49  <Samu> assert_compile(lengthof(_price_base_specs) == PR_END);
13:31:55  <Samu> this is where it errors
13:32:32  <Wolf01> Then it didn't apply correctly, also I didn't made it against trunk, it was only to show you the changes
13:33:21  <Samu> Severity	Code	Description	Project	File	Line	Suppression State Error (active)		the size of an array must be greater than zero	openttd	d:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\table\pricebase.h	85
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13:33:25  <Samu> Severity	Code	Description	Project	File	Line	Suppression State Error	C2118	negative subscript	openttd	d:\openttd\trunk\src\table\pricebase.h	85
13:37:23  <Samu> lengthof(_price_base_specs) == PR_END);
13:37:29  <Samu> i'm getting a 71 == 72
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13:37:41  <Wolf01> It mean you miss a PR_DOMETHING
13:37:51  <Wolf01> s/D/S
13:38:07  <Wolf01> Or even more than 1
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13:42:15  <Samu> ah, tortoise svn removed some line
13:42:18  <Samu> about ships
13:42:22  <Samu> damn tortoise
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13:43:47  <Samu> i got it
13:43:53  <Samu> let's try again
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13:44:39  <Samu>  ///< PR_RUNNING_SHIP {1000000, PCAT_CON.... was on the same line
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13:44:50  <Samu> dunno why tortoise patched it like that
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13:45:09  <Samu> didn't register the end of line
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13:46:21  <Samu> it werks!
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14:01:10  <Samu> intersting, nothing bad is happening
14:02:43  <Samu> any newgrf that happens to have invalid_price before, is now displaying a running cost
14:02:51  <Samu> £0
14:03:02  <Samu> which is... "okay"
14:05:04  <Samu> newgrfs had the option to display either £0 or just not displaying it at all
14:05:19  <Samu> not displaying it at all = INVALID_PRICE
14:05:48  <Samu> must investigate this further, b rb
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14:31:42  <supermop> yo
14:33:32  <Samu> i swear i've seen newgrfs with running costs of £0 being displayed before
14:33:35  <Samu> grr
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15:56:11  <Samu> is this good coding etiquete
15:56:22  <Samu> If (abc) do {
15:56:34  <Samu> code here
15:56:44  <Samu> } while (whtever);
15:59:20  <Samu> if (unc_len != 0) do { bla; } while(bleh);
16:07:18  <Wolf01> if (x) do {} while(); => while() {}
16:07:43  <Wolf01> *while(x && other while condition)
16:19:21  <Samu> got it
16:19:41  <Samu> also got a math problem
16:20:28  <Samu> 1000/4 = 250
16:20:53  <Samu> 250/4 = 62.5
16:21:08  <Samu> hmmm it's wrong that i divide it a second time
16:21:34  <Samu> trying to get the individual running cost of a wagon is tough
16:21:50  <Samu> in the vehicle detail information tab
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16:22:07  <Samu> openttd doesn't do it
16:22:29  <Samu> it does for the entire train, but not for individual parts
16:22:43  <supermop> can't decide if i want to just make rough tram all brown dirt and not bother changing ground sprites
16:23:24  <supermop> rough tram is for andy things to drive on, so i'll wait to ask him
16:24:08  <supermop> how fast should a mine cart go?
16:24:11  <supermop> 100 mph?
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16:37:46  <Wolf01> <supermop> how fast should a mine cart go? <- google says 25kmh
16:38:22  <Wolf01> Minecraft ones go up 28.8kmh
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16:48:11  <Samu> working with integer math is so limited
16:49:10  <Samu> @calc 75600 >> 15
16:49:10  <DorpsGek> Samu: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
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16:49:49  <Samu> 2
16:49:55  <Samu> rip decimals
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16:53:32  <Alberth> o/
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16:57:09  <Wolf01> o/
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17:26:24  <Samu> BaseCosts Mod 5.0 cannot modify the running costs of wagons
17:27:41  <Samu> unless.... oh nevermind, it can
17:28:11  <Samu> if the wagons actually have a running cost class, it can
17:29:14  <Samu> i'm treating them as Steam
17:30:30  <Wolf01> You should add PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_WAGON and support it on grfs
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18:04:45  <zuzak> Hi there, is there a way to mirror the content server locally? We're wanting to host a LAN party, but our network has a restrictive firewall
18:05:02  <zuzak> or can players download content from the game-server directly?
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18:05:07  <Samu> a
18:05:10  <Samu> unc_cost += GetPrice(PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_STEAM, cost_factor, e->GetGRF()) / _price[PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_STEAM];
18:05:54  <Samu> there's so much code that seems redundant, but it actually matters, just to get a price
18:06:30  <Samu> i can now get the running cost of an individual wagon
18:07:04  <Samu> make it go through the newgrf filter, like nars do for stopped vehicles
18:07:48  <Samu> make it go through another one which is basecosts mod which can adjust running costs
18:08:39  <Samu> i got a value of 63000 going around 2 filters, only to return 63000
18:09:04  <Samu> newgrfs could change it, but at least I'm happy to keep this functionality
18:13:33  <Samu> there's still something not quite right, grrr
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18:18:14  <Alberth> zuzak: simplest is to download the required grfs beforehand, and distribute them locally
18:18:18  <Rubidium> zuzak: I assume that restrictive firewall also implies not being able to change the DNS resolution in the network, so making a mirror would be pointless. And no, the game servers will not serve the content
18:18:55  <Alberth> you can just drop the files into the right directory of openttd, and it will be found
18:18:57  <Rubidium> having said that, it's technically achievable with some effort
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18:55:30  <Samu> hmm Wolf01, after checking out how NewGRFs are dealing with running costs for wagons right now, adding a PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_WAGON wouldn't work as one would expect
18:55:57  <Samu> they already set their wagons to one of the other 3
18:56:02  <Samu> diesel, steam or electric
18:56:44  <Samu> if then you change the cost multiplier on a hipotetically basecost mod that does support it, it wouldn't change the wagon running costs
19:06:10  <Wolf01> As I said before, leave existing grfs working as they do
19:06:32  <Wolf01> New grfs use the new feature
19:07:08  <Wolf01> If you need to change old grfs you make another grf which overrides their feature in the same exact way they did
19:07:46  <Wolf01> Maybe is even possible to change the class to "wagon" instead of the other 3
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19:48:08  <Samu> im gonna need help
19:48:18  <Samu> how do i make a 2-pass function
19:48:20  <Wolf01> I need sleep
19:48:23  <Samu> t.t
19:48:38  <Samu>
19:48:41  <Samu> i got this
19:49:25  <Samu> lines 30 to 53 is the 2nd pass
19:49:51  <Samu> lines 14 to 28 is the 1st pass
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19:52:26  <Wolf01> Quak
19:53:54  <Samu> as you see, i'm calculating the parts individually now
19:54:56  <Samu> for that, I need to know in advance the running cost of the parts that assigned a running cost (1st pass)
20:00:24  <frosch123> poor guy, mailing about not being able to login to using their credentials
20:00:41  <frosch123> hoi
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20:07:58  <Alberth> o/
20:10:58  <Samu> anyone can help me?
20:13:52  <supermop_> i can't find any good gpl NG tracks
20:14:42  <frosch123> did you not find any gpl ng tracks, or did yout not find and good ng tracks?
20:15:03  <frosch123> s/and/any/
20:18:53  <supermop_> well no tram tracks that look what i want
20:19:07  <frosch123> one fish two fish red fish blue fish
20:19:40  <frosch123> weird that starcraft told me about english children's books
20:20:27  <supermop_> for ng i dont know any that look like what i want
20:21:52  <supermop_> tiny tracks that look like regular tracks
20:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> is that the book which results in the craziest tongue twisters?
20:23:35  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: i think i usually used the tram/lightrail tracks grf
20:24:03  <supermop_> Eddi|zuHause: does it have ties/sleepers?
20:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't remember
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20:31:13  <frosch123> <- please vote for a definitive result :)
20:35:17  <Samu> only 2 submissions? why not wait for more?
20:36:24  <SpComb> why does that post render super-wide on mobile
20:37:48  <supermop_> less than a month left to vote etc
20:38:23  <Wolf01> Uhm, I'm playing with unspooled, I find a bit interesting that you can build roads of different kind but not the stations/depots, but you can convert them after and still have access to all vehicles
20:38:39  <supermop_> huh
20:38:54  <supermop_> how do you mean
20:39:27  <Wolf01> I mean that my patch might not work at all
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20:39:42  <supermop_> i don't intend any weird depot or station behavior
20:40:29  <Wolf01>
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20:41:35  <SpComb> wait, people still use pre-signals
20:41:43  <Wolf01> Seem so
20:42:20  <SpComb> also, what about tue 4k view :(
20:42:47  <supermop_> wait you can't build depots for each road type?
20:42:58  <Wolf01> Only for the first one
20:43:02  <frosch123> Wolf01: strings swapped in the grf?
20:44:08  <supermop_> now i am really confused
20:44:19  <Wolf01> I think it's the ICanHazInfrastructure() function I was working to
20:46:20  <Wolf01> But it should have disabled the toolbars too
20:47:23  <Wolf01> Also one should not be allowed to convert stations and depots to a roadtype which has no available vehicles, for consistency
20:47:40  <Wolf01> But then you can't make roadtypes without vehicles
20:48:52  <Wolf01> Branch needs a lot of work
20:49:22  <SpComb> someone should implement infrastructure sharing for 1.7, and then it woulf be totally awesome
20:50:13  <SpComb> I tried playing a solo game of OpenTTD... got boring after a 4h or so
20:50:14  <supermop_> SpComb: lot of work to fit into 30 days
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20:53:56  <SpComb> spent over and hour fiddling around with NewGRFs and then played for a couple hours longer :(
20:56:07  <Wolf01> OTTD will get really boring if you don't have a plan
20:56:19  <SpComb> heh... do the modern patch-packs still include my silly Town Cargo Generation Factor patch
20:56:39  <supermop_> everytime i play i find something i want to change or add
20:56:50  <supermop_> so at least i am adding new things now
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20:57:28  <andythenorth> o/
20:58:08  <supermop_> termite seem to me the only one on devzone
20:58:22  <supermop_> for some reason i had thought pikka made some too
20:58:26  <SpComb> whaat, does JGR's patchpack actually include IS with a modern OpenTTD?
21:00:11  <supermop_> whenever i play an infrastructure sharing game, my company goes bankrupt
21:00:49  <supermop_> because i dont end up getting the delivery of any of the most profitable passengers
21:01:54  <SpComb> wow, and JGR's pp is against the latest svn head
21:02:15  <Alberth> o/ andy
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21:03:22  <andythenorth> JGR appears to be pretty clued in on actual development
21:03:24  <andythenorth> afaict
21:03:44  <planetmaker> o/
21:03:54  <andythenorth> hi planetmaker
21:04:01  <andythenorth> Alberth also
21:04:15  <frosch123> hoi pm
21:04:26  <supermop_> planetmaker: would an articulated trolleybus or tram be against the spirit of ogfx+?
21:04:34  <frosch123> can you close , eventually people will post in both topics, and then it gets confusing
21:04:51  <frosch123> supermop_: ogfx+ has articulated buses
21:05:06  <frosch123> and trams
21:05:19  <frosch123> and trucks
21:05:22  <supermop_> surely it does not
21:06:09  <supermop_> hmm termite NG still 2x the size of tramtracks
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21:08:10  <andythenorth> supermop_: termite NG needs redrawing
21:08:13  <andythenorth> it’s not NG enough
21:08:24  <supermop_> i shouldn't have spoken up
21:08:27  *** Alberth has left #openttd
21:08:27  * andythenorth too much to-do list
21:09:01  <frosch123> hmm, what did i confuse ogfx+rv with?
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21:10:21  <supermop_> frosch123: egrvts?
21:12:44  <supermop_> andythenorth: for rough, slow mineral tramway,  ballast? dirt? sleepers?
21:13:26  <Wolf01> o/ andy
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21:16:01  <andythenorth> brown cinder dirt
21:16:05  <andythenorth> no sleepers
21:18:24  <supermop_> need 3 visually distinct, with best being a nice new light rail with concrete sleeper slab track
21:18:38  <supermop_> grass between the tracks
21:18:39  <supermop_> ?
21:21:22  <SpComb> how does JGR's infra sharing work with cargodist? can pax transfer between different companies?
21:22:43  <supermop_> SpComb: of course
21:23:28  <supermop_> but as with the infrastructure sharing patch in general there is no resolution to how to share payments
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21:23:47  <supermop_> so only the company making final delivery makes any money
21:24:16  <SpComb> last MP game we played ended up with me sending all the other players money so that they would keep playing and not give up or go bankrupt
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21:24:37  <supermop_> so certain types of large rail networks will always fail without manual transfers of money
21:24:57  <Wolf01> That's why you should be paid at any leg
21:25:37  <supermop_> there is no way to share the passenger fare, nor a way to set a contract for payment to use track or provide feeder service
21:26:22  <Wolf01> Mmmh, I'm making big money with 9 trucks
21:26:33  <supermop_> Wolf01: yeah, but whoever wrote the IS patch never implemented that or solved the free money for endless circular routes problem
21:27:05  <SpComb> some financial imbalances are fine when playing a peaceful co-op
21:27:40  <SpComb> as long as it's not completely broken... but not getting any transfer payments does sound a bit problematic
21:27:43  <supermop_> not really fine for vanilla trunk though
21:27:47  <Wolf01> Also endless circular routes are solvable by making the cargo following the cdist graph, if you don't follow it the payment drops towards 0 really fast
21:28:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not 100% sure cargodist actually manages to prevent cargo travelling in circles
21:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> especially on congested networks you have weird effects
21:30:00  <SpComb> supermop_: well... that's a choice of how complete you want features to be before merging, vs taking something that works and fixing it up
21:30:22  <SpComb> ofc you do want to avoid fundamental desogn conflicts
21:31:18  <SpComb> need to give JGRs pp a try... cargodist + IS sounds like it would be an interesting multiplayer game
21:31:48  <SpComb> lets each company bootstrap itself, and then later interact in meaningful ways
21:31:52  <supermop_> Wolf01: if the only route from M to N goes "M, L, K, J ... C, B, A, Z, Y, X ... Q, P, O, N"
21:32:36  <supermop_> then cdist wont know that any route M->N direct exists, and will reward the path that goes to opposite ends of the earth
21:32:36  <Wolf01> If you take a year to deliver cargo, you won't get pais much
21:32:46  <Wolf01> *paid
21:33:04  <Wolf01> For other cases, airplanes
21:33:54  <supermop_> i think a solution exists, just haven't seen many explored in the IS discussion
21:34:16  <Wolf01> Also the total amount should be based both on leg station distance from destination and start-destination bird fly distance
21:34:57  <andythenorth> why is Infrastructure Sharing?
21:35:17  <supermop_> andythenorth: so we can have different colors
21:35:26  <andythenorth> it’s bollocks
21:35:38  <andythenorth> it was implemented in Railroad Tycoon 3, and it was bollocks there to
21:35:40  <andythenorth> too *
21:35:41  <Wolf01> Assign player different colors in the same coop company and you solve it
21:35:46  <supermop_> that's the only reason i can tell to use IS and not just co-op on the same company
21:35:50  * andythenorth hasn’t played IS game, so is talking out of his arse
21:36:01  <andythenorth> but it’s one of the ‘must must must have’ features that get mentioned
21:36:03  <supermop_> Wolf01: i would welcome patch for colors by groups etc
21:36:13  <andythenorth> I have never ever played a game where I wished for it
21:36:42  <SpComb> co-op isn't necessarily better... early game is very slow, and people have vastly differing styles for railways in particular
21:37:09  <supermop_> separate companies only makes sense if there is some gameplay angle for money differences between companies
21:37:54  <andythenorth> still, trackage rights are super-realism, eh :P
21:37:57  <supermop_> so unless IS addresses that there is not really a gameplay reason to use IS instead of coop
21:37:57  <Wolf01> More I play with unspooled, more I want to add new flags to roadtypes
21:38:14  <supermop_> Wolf01: thats the idea of making a proof of concept grf
21:38:23  <supermop_> to see how the concept we have actually works
21:38:25  <Wolf01> frosch123 will kill me :D
21:39:08  <andythenorth> does L33-35 resolve to a simpler sum?
21:39:27  <andythenorth> it’s all over the same divisor?
21:40:02  <andythenorth> maths such :P
21:40:05  <supermop_> i immediately found myself wanting custom sidewalks per roadtype
21:40:46  <Wolf01> Btw, current ponies: tramway which doesn't allow road at all, tramway which only allows road crossing and not same roadbits, priority for vehicle merging on intersections (for different roadtypes)
21:41:35  <Wolf01> The last one is useful when you have a caterpillar trying to merge just before your shiny new 150kph bus
21:43:21  <supermop_> haha
21:43:46  <supermop_> id say road which allows no tramway is also important for highway
21:44:00  <Samu> what does this mean? Converts a const Vehicle to const SpecializedVehicle with type checking.
21:44:09  <supermop_> no idea
21:44:18  <Samu> return (const T *)v;
21:44:27  <Samu> what is a SpecializedVehicle?
21:44:29  <__ln__> eww, explicit cast
21:44:55  <Samu> okay, i better expose my issue
21:45:02  <supermop_> also modify TE by roadtype?
21:45:23  <Samu> i got a train that consists of an engine and a wagon
21:45:26  <Wolf01> Also a flag to forbit towns to grow some roadtypes, you don't want plenty of intersections in the highway passing through a city
21:45:36  <supermop_> regular RV has worse TE on dirt, 4wd RV has less worse TE
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21:46:16  <Wolf01> And a bit of blending through roadtypes, if possible
21:47:07  <supermop_> i guess RV sets can be  hardcoded to switch TE based on current roadtype
21:47:35  <Samu> i want to retrieve the running cost of each individual part of the consist
21:47:37  <supermop_> but a roadtype flag for traction coefficient would be more universal
21:47:49  <Samu> but I'm not sure how to do it
21:47:58  <supermop_> default at 1, can set to 0.1 - 1.0
21:48:21  <Samu> want to retrieve it in real-time, to get the current value
21:48:48  <Wolf01> GetPrice(...)?
21:48:56  <supermop_> then RV can have a flag to reduce the effect of this if they are tracked or 4wd or whatever
21:48:59  <Samu> no, bah i'm not making myself clear
21:49:17  <Wolf01> Nice idea supermop_
21:49:42  <Wolf01> Caterpillars should have max TE no matter the roadtype
21:49:43  <supermop_> then my subaru imprezas can still run fast on dirt while bus and trucks struggle
21:50:29  <Samu> i wanna display under vehicle details, info tab, the running cost, for each individual part of the train
21:50:33  <supermop_> maybe can abuse so cable hauled trams or funiculars then have 1/0 TE
21:50:53  <supermop_> as they never need to worry about wheel traction
21:51:40  <Wolf01> Meh, 6 years and 12 trucks I can already repay the loan
21:51:54  <supermop_> Wolf01: dirt too cheap?
21:52:03  <Wolf01> Nah
21:52:09  <Wolf01> Maybe too fast
21:52:32  <supermop_> hmm
21:52:34  <Samu> when listing each part, it appears that the wagons have been detached from all other parts, it's no longer part of a consist, it's only self
21:53:06  <supermop_> id like to allow at least certain vehicles to go sort of fast on dirt, but maybe now it is too similar to gravel
21:53:45  <Wolf01> Also early vehicles are too slow to get malus from travelling on dirt/gravel
21:54:09  <supermop_> i envisioned players would only really build dirt in 1700s with horse wagons, and that most would use gravel for their cheap roads in modern era
21:54:11  <Wolf01> Nerf them a bit, like 30 and 45
21:54:19  <supermop_> Wolf01: makes sense
21:54:42  <Samu> I'm too slow today, it's hard to explain
21:54:43  <Samu> sorry
21:55:21  <supermop_> there is no way to really model the other malus effects of unpaved road, like hazard in wet weather, wear and tear on vehicle
21:55:23  <Wolf01> I started in 1950, I also built an asphalt road between cities, but I connected all the factories with dirt
21:55:42  <supermop_> highway too expensive?
21:55:52  <Wolf01> No, no need to
21:55:56  <Wolf01> I'll build it late
21:56:01  <Wolf01> *later
21:56:22  <supermop_> also cannot model that dirt is cheap to maintain if only light vehicles drive on it
21:56:41  <supermop_> as tno way to count how many tons pass over road bit per year
21:57:27  <Wolf01> That old rusty track patch could have been really useful hjere
21:57:39  <supermop_> could set RVs to have higher running cost on dirt, but that needs every grf to have same idea of what is dirt
21:58:09  <supermop_> other idea: buses cannot go on dirt at all, but same problem as above?
21:58:42  <supermop_> eg make dirt more like off-road
22:02:35  <andythenorth> I find I edit out a lot of my ideas
22:02:47  <andythenorth> :)
22:03:12  <Wolf01> Ha, added a single tram now, income has boosted
22:03:20  * andythenorth bed
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22:04:13  <supermop_> on rough tramway?
22:04:32  <Wolf01> No, basic electric tramway
22:05:07  <supermop_> hmm should make that more expensive
22:05:25  <supermop_> also come up with a better name for it
22:05:38  <Wolf01> I think a way to partially solve the problem of roads which don't allow crossing is to introduce vehicle waypoints in the same fashion of toll points, the highway ends at waypoints which have a nice graphic and you continue with road
22:06:52  <Wolf01> Too bad OTTD lets you manage every aspect of the transport with the same company, you can't pay yourself :P
22:07:49  <Wolf01> I think infra-sharing was bor for this, one will focus on infrastructure, others on vehicles
22:07:56  <Wolf01> *born
22:08:35  <zuzak> hm, is there a way to make the show-reserved-paths-of-trains more visible? the black's hard to see. but I figure someone would've made it by now, and I can't find anything on the content server
22:09:11  <supermop_> zuzak: not that i know of
22:09:31  <supermop_> i think it is something that newgrf can change
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22:21:58  <supermop_> drawing tram  sleepers
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22:25:40  <Wolf01> Another thing I just stumbled on, the possibility to disable some bridges for a roadtype
22:26:28  <Wolf01> It would need some mapping
22:27:09  <Wolf01> Or we just let it as is and is player choice to not build highway with wooden bridges
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22:37:32  <Samu> HALP!
22:38:10  <Samu> i'm trying to display running cost per piece, but uh... it's doing something weird
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22:53:44  <supermop_> Wolf01: id rather have different bridge types for different types
22:54:04  <supermop_> in the spirit of the TTO monorail
22:54:21  <Wolf01> Even better
22:54:42  <supermop_> even if it is still a global limit of 15
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22:56:08  <supermop_> other or additionally: a same bridge type has different sprites based on type
22:56:35  <Wolf01> Still the problem of wooden highway :P
22:56:41  <supermop_> wood train bridge and wood road bridge might look different
22:57:01  <supermop_> flag to disable wood would  be helpful
22:57:35  <supermop_> adding ties:
22:57:37  <supermop_>
22:58:56  <supermop_> they don't show up on the brown dirt tho
22:59:20  <Wolf01> Better than nothing
23:00:41  <supermop_> so maybe rough gets brown dirt, basic gets wood ties on gravel, and modern gets concrete ties
23:00:46  <supermop_> brb
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23:08:21  <Samu>
23:08:24  <Samu> HALP
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23:10:26  <Samu> i got a terrible programming issue
23:10:52  <Supercheese> Is that a terrible issue with programming, or an issue with terrible programming? ;)
23:11:03  <Samu> probably both
23:11:08  <Supercheese> Heh
23:12:45  <Samu> the way openttd processes the code
23:13:25  <Samu> it first gets the engine at the front, sends it to the GetRunningCost and comes up with the result
23:13:50  <Samu> then gets the next unit after the front, and discards the first one
23:14:02  <Samu> now it's a 3-unit train
23:14:17  <Samu> sends it to the GetRunningCost and comes up with the result
23:14:40  <Samu> then repeat, 2-unit train, sent to runningcost, 1-unit, running cost
23:15:05  <Samu> so basically, there's 4 trains
23:15:18  <Samu> I dunno how to solve this
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23:27:18  <Wolf01> Samu
23:30:02  <Samu> ..
23:30:06  *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC
23:37:32  <Samu> hmm I think i understand what's going on
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23:53:19  <Samu> GetCargoSummaryOfArticulatedVehicle
23:53:32  <Samu> I need something similar to this, but for RunningCost
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