Log for #openttd on 5th March 2017:
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00:17:20  <Wolf01> Ha! Just purchased train valley (2€) it's cool, and I think it's exploitable to make huge profits there too
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00:54:17  <Wolf01> 'night
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06:43:56  <Alberth> moin
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07:50:55  <Alberth> o/
07:51:17  <Alberth> I am far from happy with makefile
07:51:35  <Alberth> considering rewrite to python
07:51:59  <Alberth> it's all a simple sequential set of steps any way
07:52:10  <Alberth> andythenorth:  ^
07:56:52  <andythenorth> hi hi
07:57:08  <andythenorth> Alberth: I have considered abandoning make before :)
07:57:13  <andythenorth> it would be one less dep
07:57:31  <andythenorth> but…I did some reading about people who have tried to replace make with python :P
07:57:53  <andythenorth> seems it only works if you absolutely know what you doing :)
07:57:54  <Alberth> in the general case?  yes, don't gothere
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07:58:43  <Alberth> but I don't want to solve the general case
07:58:48  <andythenorth> I am actually +1 to keeping make, we have gradually started using on it our work python projects
07:58:56  <andythenorth> as a wrapper to buildout, setuptools etc
07:59:13  <andythenorth> but they’re pretty simple makefiles
07:59:40  <Alberth> newgrf makefile isn't simple
08:00:14  <Alberth> it handles a lot of stuff with text, which is really not something you should do in a shell
08:00:24  <andythenorth> yes
08:00:59  <Alberth> likely it makes sense to keep a wrapper Makefile
08:01:09  <andythenorth> here’s an example
08:01:39  <Alberth> :)
08:01:53  <andythenorth> we use it, not so much for the powers of make, but because it reduces ‘this is weird python shit’ for new people
08:02:05  <Alberth> as a simple interface
08:02:05  <andythenorth> and it exposes current python devs to the idea of working in standard GNU ways
08:02:08  <Alberth> that works
08:02:43  <andythenorth> ok :)
08:02:58  <Alberth> so perhaps a bunch of python scripts glued with make?
08:03:02  <andythenorth> yes
08:03:09  <andythenorth> it pretty much is that
08:03:28  <andythenorth> e.g. I can get the docs with python src/
08:03:29  <andythenorth> and so on
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08:03:42  <Alberth> could move all the text handling away from the shell etc
08:03:43  <andythenorth> the compile is modular, with a python script for each concern
08:04:22  <Alberth> don't know "all", but at least the complicated ones
08:04:56  <andythenorth> ah, src/ still exists
08:05:09  <andythenorth> and the makefile calls it
08:05:23  <andythenorth> so there is one entry point script handling the entire python compile
08:05:35  <Alberth> I didn't see any source file lists
08:05:38  <andythenorth> no
08:05:43  <andythenorth> there’s nothing calculating deps
08:06:04  <andythenorth> I always wanted to eliminate the ‘build_iron_horse’, ‘build_road_hog’ etc scripts and move that into the makefile
08:06:15  <andythenorth> but eh, too complicated :)
08:06:23  <Alberth> likely
08:06:33  * andythenorth checks FIRS
08:06:40  <Alberth> though such scripts have a common pattern too, I guess
08:07:00  <andythenorth> FIRS doesn’t have a ‘’
08:07:14  <andythenorth> it is handled (correctly imho) by the makefile
08:12:33  <Alberth> looks like it indeed
08:14:47  <andythenorth> I don’t know how reliable the dep-checking is in the FIRS example
08:15:20  <andythenorth> it would almost be easier to just check src/*.py recursively
08:15:41  <andythenorth> maintaining dep lists will always slip my mind
08:16:03  <Alberth> firs has no dep checking, by the looks of it
08:17:18  <Alberth> nml target depends on $(GENERATE_PNML), which points to "nml:" two lines up, which has no deps
08:17:37  <Alberth> euhm "pnml:" two lines up
08:18:18  <andythenorth> in
08:18:23  <andythenorth> o_O
08:18:28  <Alberth> makeifle
08:18:30  <Alberth> Makefile
08:18:52  <andythenorth> ah yes, the Makefile is vanilla, doesn’t understand firs deps
08:20:24  <Alberth> I really fail to understand why you need 3 pieces of Makefile :p
08:21:13  <andythenorth> well
08:21:17  <andythenorth> I could try and explain
08:21:22  <andythenorth> but that would require me to understand :)
08:21:44  <andythenorth> theory is that Makefile is vendored-in, never edit
08:22:02  <andythenorth> Makefile.config is of course, configuration against standard configuration points
08:22:14  <andythenorth> and is how you break the standard Makefile because it doesn’t do what’s needed :)
08:22:21  <andythenorth> Makefile.local I eliminated :P
08:23:03  <Alberth> for me, "*.in" is a template file for autotools :p
08:23:20  <Alberth> ie ./configure  and friends
08:25:59  <andythenorth> I see :)
08:26:16  <andythenorth> for me it’s a template for python paste
08:26:43  <andythenorth> probably pm took that pattern from autotools :)
08:26:44  <Alberth> at least we agree on it being a template :p
08:27:41  <Alberth> with a twist in meaning, as autotools makes a full copy, while doing a few replacements
08:28:02  <andythenorth> that’s what paste does afaict
08:28:03  <Alberth> I have pondered adding a ./configure-like solution
08:28:30  <Alberth> but it doesn't have enough things to configure, I think
08:28:53  <andythenorth> nah
08:30:08  <andythenorth> even the location for ‘install’ target is standardised
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08:30:45  <andythenorth> and there’s nothing platform-specific or environment-specific in my code
08:33:07  <Alberth> :O     CP_FLAGS       ?= $(shell [ "$(OSTYPE)" = "Darwin" ] && echo "-rfX" || echo "-rf")
08:33:19  <Alberth> :)
08:33:50  <Alberth> but indeed, hardly worth the effort
08:33:53  <andythenorth> magic :)
08:34:28  <Alberth> imho it's total bollocks to use a shell for text selection
08:35:20  <andythenorth> every problem is a nut
08:35:47  <andythenorth> oh nail, not nut
08:35:55  <andythenorth> mixing my sayings :P
08:35:57  <Alberth> I can see why ./configure uses m4 :)
08:36:03  <andythenorth>
08:36:49  <Alberth> ha, I know the phrase, didn't know it had a name as well :)
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08:41:23  <Alberth> yesterday frosch pointed out the newer way to assign version numbers to builds, do you want to switch to that?
08:41:48  <Alberth> (20:31:12) frosch123:
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08:55:14  <andythenorth> I don’t actually find it useful
08:55:41  <andythenorth> it’s preferable to just have ‘revM’
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08:59:16  <Alberth> ok
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09:35:59  <Samu> sup
09:36:31  <Supercheese> Kerbal is up
09:40:17  <andythenorth> Kerbal Train Programme
09:41:04  <Supercheese> Kerbal Monorail Program:
09:42:50  <Supercheese> also Kerbal zellepins
09:43:15  <Supercheese> Moar zellepins
09:51:06  <andythenorth> monorail is really quite epic
09:52:35  <Supercheese> Indeed, he did an amazing job
09:55:31  <Alberth> ?
09:57:52  <andythenorth> KSP video
09:57:56  <Supercheese> the fellow who did ... yes that
09:59:13  <Alberth> yes, but I fail to see "epic"
09:59:32  <andythenorth> nice music, nice pictures
09:59:39  <Alberth> long stretch of pipe, strap an engine to it
09:59:47  <andythenorth> also, when I tried KSP, I couldn’t get the rocket to stay assembled on a launch pad
09:59:48  <andythenorth> :P
09:59:55  <Alberth> :)
09:59:59  <andythenorth> everything in KSP falls apart all the time :P
10:00:12  <Alberth> oh, ok, fair enough then :)
10:00:13  <Supercheese> more struts
10:00:49  <Alberth> Kerbal Struts Program :p
10:00:53  <Supercheese> More boosters
10:01:06  <Alberth> nah, no B in KSP
10:01:50  <Alberth> maybe for v2:  Boosted Kerbal Struts Program
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10:05:19  <Supercheese> KSP 2: Electric Boosteloo
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10:17:30  <Wolf01> Moin
10:18:01  <Alberth> o/
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10:30:16  <Samu> question, what does it take to implement a patch into vanilla openttd?
10:30:44  <Samu> is the aircraft type a good patch?
10:31:03  <Samu>
10:36:09  <Samu> isn't displaying aircraft type info a good idea?
10:39:09  <__ln__> what does it matter to the average player?
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10:40:36  <andythenorth> I find it annoying that I don’t know which planes are large and which are small
10:40:47  <andythenorth> maybe I should disable crashes :P
10:40:53  <andythenorth> or fork AV9 and make them all small :P
10:43:09  <andythenorth> biab
10:44:07  <Samu> helps them distinguish a small plane from a large plane
10:44:27  <Alberth> it would really help if you also note what to look at in your screen shots
10:44:44  <Alberth> now it's just a random shot that looks like vanilla openttd
10:45:00  <Alberth> I don't remember exactly what each window shows
10:45:08  <Samu> there's planes that look alike
10:45:08  <Alberth> so I can't see any difference
10:45:27  <Samu> oh, i wanted unadultered shots, but i see it would help
10:46:11  <__ln__> did you mean:
10:46:13  <Alberth> "unaltered" means "not changed", "adult" means "grown up", no idea what unadultered is :)
10:46:36  <Alberth> lol
10:46:44  <Samu> unaltered...
10:47:00  <Samu> sorry, portuguese got in the way lol
10:47:53  <Alberth> np
10:48:18  <Samu>
10:48:57  <Samu> unadulterated I guess
10:49:47  <Alberth> I can see the English side being broken, no idea what the Spanish side says :)
10:50:07  <Alberth> or apparently, Portugese
10:50:28  <Samu> unadulterated = not mixed or diluted with any different or extra elements; complete and absolute.
10:52:53  <Samu> there are planes that are small and large while they look alike
10:53:27  <Samu> also there's newgrfs that may actually display this information, but there was no sort by to group the all together
10:53:41  <Samu> i think it's helpful
10:54:27  <Samu> group them* all together - typo
10:54:53  <Samu> also helpful when engine preview window comes up
10:55:21  <Samu> it will display it there too, helps for a better planning
10:57:59  <Samu> the placed I couldn't get it to sort by was on the company list of aircraft
10:58:26  <Samu> or aircrafts going into a station
10:58:36  <Samu> anything that is referring to company owned stuff
10:59:23  <Samu> it'd be helpful there too, but the sorters over there are englobing all vehicle types
11:00:04  <Samu> it would require an universal "Sort by Type" sorter, and i'm not sure how to go about that
11:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you should patch the game so it tells you the expected runway length in the vehicle stats?
11:02:04  <Samu> i have a feeling Eddi|zuHause can't read what I'm typing
11:02:18  <Alberth> :)
11:03:45  <Wolf01> Lol
11:12:31  <Samu> Alberth: l - :o
11:12:38  <Samu> Alberth: - :o
11:13:15  <Samu> and im missing the engine preview offer window, not easy to have it trigger
11:13:58  <Samu> Eddi|zuHause:
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11:27:33  <Alberth> looks nice
11:27:48  <Alberth> bit busy at the moment, I'll check the patch later
11:29:54  <Samu> oh nice, thx
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12:00:59  <Alberth> looks ok, at first sight
12:01:40  <Alberth> adding the sort type should be done separately from adding to the display
12:02:06  <Alberth> and I don't like the very long string names
12:02:35  <Alberth> latter probably requires a rename operation on the strings
12:02:48  <Alberth> which then also affects all translations
12:02:54  <Alberth> ie not nice to do
12:03:39  <Alberth> if you go that way, renaming of the strings should be separate from adding new strings
12:05:06  <Alberth> you also checked how it looks if you do have a range on the aircraft?
12:09:09  <Samu> which one?
12:09:17  <Samu> ah, wait, let me open it up
12:10:14  <Samu> "adding the sort type should be done separately" what does this mean
12:10:51  <Samu> which line is it? on the patch
12:13:32  <Alberth> your patch both adds display of the aircraft type, and the sorting on the type
12:13:46  <Alberth> in trunk one thing gets changed in one commit
12:14:04  <Alberth> so in trunk we have one commit for adding the display
12:14:14  <Samu> ah i get what you mean
12:14:19  <Samu> make it into 2 patches
12:14:19  <Alberth> and one commit for adding the new sort type
12:14:29  <Alberth> indeed
12:14:54  <Samu> i guess i can do that
12:16:47  <Samu> about the very long string names... i'm not sure what i can do there
12:17:31  <Alberth> the current naming convention fails, so it needs new names in some way
12:17:51  <Samu> yes, but that is not my fault :(
12:18:02  <Alberth> it's nobody falt
12:18:05  <Alberth> *fault
12:18:30  <Alberth> things get extended a few times, and at some point you need to re-organize
12:19:18  <Alberth> changes in string names are not fun to do manually
12:19:48  <Alberth> you need some 'sed' wizardry to make it managable
12:20:05  <Alberth> so first split the patch, perhaps think of a better string name
12:20:17  <andythenorth> string fixing always looks like a python nail to me :P
12:20:42  <Alberth> nah, it's plain name substitution
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12:21:29  <Alberth> sed -i -e 's/OLD_NAME/NEW_NAME/' src/lang/*.txt src/lang/unfinished/*.txt
12:21:42  <Alberth> and then a change in the source code
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12:22:38  <Samu> i have to google what "sed" is
12:22:47  <Samu> so you prefer a string rename
12:22:50  <Samu> over adding new strings
12:22:58  <Alberth> no
12:23:16  <Alberth> you definitely need new strings
12:23:49  <Alberth> but old names and new names must use the same convention in naming
12:24:11  <Alberth> so if you change convention, all strings that use it, must change as well
12:24:52  <Alberth> so you add new strings with a new convention in the name
12:25:02  <Samu> ah, because of translations
12:25:04  <Alberth> then you must also rename all the remaining strings
12:25:33  <Alberth> yes, translators must find the new string to translate
12:25:57  <Alberth> and you rename to keep it clear that the set of strings belongs to each other
12:26:02  <Samu> patching strings in the translation files to adapt them into a new convention
12:27:06  <Alberth> that's what the 'sed' line does indeed, else all translators have to re-translate the exact same text, but with a different string name
12:28:50  <Samu> avoid giving work to translators, by re-using what they have already translated
12:28:57  <Samu> interesting
12:29:16  <Samu> re-use what's done, adapt it to new convention
12:29:24  <Alberth> yep
12:29:56  <Samu> i could try patching all languages manually, since I have no idea if there's a 'sed' equivalent on windows
12:30:57  <Alberth> it's over 40 files
12:31:06  <Wolf01> we need this
12:31:59  <Alberth> just invent a better way to name the strings, 'sed' is going to be so awful much quicker and accurate, don't bother trying to do that manually, I can do it in a few minutes
12:33:04  <Alberth> Wolf01:  it's possible in reality, I always wondered what would happen if you'd try that
12:43:10  <Wolf01> Mmmmh, I need to glue some polyethylene...
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12:46:13  <Samu> "you also checked how it looks if you do have a range on the aircraft?" yes
12:49:37  <Alberth> great
12:49:39  <Alberth> hola
12:50:46  <frosch123> moi
12:53:25  <Wolf01> Quak
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13:07:06  <Alberth> andythenorth: do you have a template fill program?
13:07:07  <Alberth> like "fill-template blah.template  name=foo  revision=r101 > blah.txt" or so?
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13:42:20  <Wolf01> andythenorth I just copied this :P
13:50:00  <supermop> good morning
13:50:15  <Wolf01> o/
13:50:29  <supermop> more work to be done
13:50:55  <supermop> pylons too wide for bridges - even with the modern catenary
13:51:33  <supermop> but it seems that bridge truss gets drawn before front pylons
13:51:47  <supermop> so they will always stick out
13:52:11  <supermop> solution is to omit pylons on bridge deck
13:52:49  <supermop> but never know if a bridge will have tall sides or not
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13:54:06  <supermop> nuclear option: unspooled replaces all bridges with new ones that look better with pylons
13:55:59  <Wolf01> And what if we try to fix that in the code?
13:56:14  <Wolf01> How many  things we'll break?
13:57:30  <eekee> why can't the graphic parts be made to fit together?
13:59:01  <Wolf01> Because one can use a roadset and a bridgeset from different authors which have different tastes
13:59:17  <Wolf01> Like pineapple on pizza
14:00:23  * eekee thinks about this
14:00:52  <supermop> eekee: my current, non-nuclear option is to try to revise graphics to look better with default bridges
14:01:46  <supermop> but as wolf said, there is no guarantee that will look good with all default bridges, let alone other bridges provided by other newgrfs
14:01:48  <eekee> makes sense -- so... the roads themselves have pylons which aren't separate pieces like street lamps or trees?
14:02:14  <supermop> the are separate, but they are always drawn
14:02:32  <supermop> you can have bridge pylons different from regular road
14:02:41  <supermop> but they are the same for all bridges
14:02:42  <eekee> there ought to be a way to disable drawing them on bridges, surely
14:03:19  <eekee> i'm having trouble imagining a bridge with pylons; never seen one irl :)
14:03:29  <supermop> I can disable they for all bridges, but that will look stupid on some bridges that do not have an overhead structure
14:03:44  <supermop> as then the wire will just float
14:04:35  <eekee> are these for trams?
14:04:45  <supermop> trams and trolleybuses
14:04:58  <eekee> ah, i wasn't thinking
14:05:27  <supermop> if you imagine the tubular bridge - sure would look weird with pylons
14:05:48  <eekee> i always play with ctrl-8 -- hide the pylons & wires :)
14:06:34  <supermop> but imagine the cheap girder bridge with the arched grey trusses - would certainly need pylons
14:06:39  <eekee> i use a grf to make narrow pylons and i still find i have to hide them because they confuse my eyes
14:06:46  <eekee> yeah
14:07:23  <supermop> eekee: fair enough but at some point you may want to tell whether a road can run a trolleybus or not
14:07:44  <eekee> i guess so. i've never used a trolleybus grf
14:09:07  <supermop> I actually started this grf to make the wires less bold - like this:
14:09:08  <supermop>
14:10:04  <eekee> ah aye :)
14:10:13  <supermop> where the wires are held by other wires, connected to poles at the far edge of the road
14:10:23  <supermop> (I used to live on that tram line)
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14:10:57  <eekee> ah yes. i won't know until i try it if it'll be any good for my eyes
14:11:25  <supermop> I suceeded in making the wire overhead a bit less noticeable, but at the expense of adding many more poles, especially in curves
14:13:12  <eekee> ohhh
14:13:20  <eekee> it's the poles that bother me :)
14:13:58  <eekee> i think i could stand a pole every other square
14:14:00  <supermop> if you want to help me out with some feedback, try this:
14:14:17  <eekee> ty...
14:14:24  <supermop> then try this:
14:14:47  <supermop> then this:
14:15:17  <supermop> that will let you play with different road types, trolleybuses, and my roadtype grf which is a wip
14:15:29  <eekee> ugh, can't read today :)
14:16:53  <supermop> Wolf01: highways need to look fancier, or asphalt roads need to look worse?
14:17:41  <Wolf01> Usually highways have barriers here, the problem is that you can't simulate them having 2-3-4 lanes
14:18:02  <supermop> it's not a 'motorway' or interstate
14:18:26  <supermop> its more like a US route X Highway or britsh A-road
14:19:26  <supermop> or a US state highway
14:20:01  <supermop> divided motorways are beyond the scope of this set, because as you say there isn't really a way to make them yet
14:20:43  <supermop> maybe to non native English speakers highway always means 4-8 lane motorway
14:20:51  <eekee> if i was going to ask for more realistic roads, i'd first ask for a building scale change. i'm about 90% sure several of the default buildings were originally meant to be 2x2 :)
14:21:19  <supermop> but here and in England at least it can also mean the purpose built intercity roads in general
14:21:55  <supermop> eekee: scale had no real meaning in 1994 - just a couple of guys wanted to make a fun game
14:22:06  <eekee> yeah :)
14:22:12  <supermop> and we've been trying to ruin it with realism ever since'
14:22:16  <eekee> yes! hahaha
14:23:01  <supermop> a townset of nearly all 2x2 houses is fine, but default town road pattern would have a lot of trouble with it
14:23:08  <Wolf01> supermop, is it possible to put random stuff on sides? Like advertising poles popping out some now and then (not every tile)
14:23:11  <eekee> ah!
14:23:26  <supermop> Wolf01 idk maybe?
14:23:36  <eekee> i've actually never tried non-default townsets
14:23:47  <supermop> not sure how available random bits are to roads
14:24:25  <supermop> did you ever get anywhere with your Cyprus trees lining your tuscan roads wolf?
14:25:01  <supermop> custom fences/trees/sidewalks per roadtype would solve a lot of my graphic wishes
14:25:20  <supermop> will frosch123 kill me?
14:25:47  <Wolf01> We are used to sycamores here, harder wood, cars crash better
14:26:00  <eekee> hehe
14:26:11  <supermop> what are the tall pointy ones they use in Tuscany then?
14:26:49  <supermop> also surprised no one has ever made any italian town sets
14:27:53  <Wolf01> Maybe cypress ones, here we use them only for roads to graveyards
14:28:08  <Wolf01> I wanted to, shit at drawing
14:28:18  <supermop> that maybe a nice niche feature for nrt then
14:28:28  <Wolf01> Just look at my brickland baseset
14:28:43  <supermop> switch to detect if house with flag 'is graveyard' is nearby
14:28:57  <eekee> lol
14:30:28  <supermop> Wolf01: whats brickland?
14:31:00  <supermop> also i think I could never finish a townset because as an architect i'd never be able to move on to the 2nd sprite
14:31:44  <Wolf01>
14:33:03  <supermop> oh yeah that was cool
14:33:40  <supermop> better than my brio climate which got only one wagon and some track slopes drawn
14:36:12  <eekee> haha i'd have that trouble
14:36:22  <supermop> is 50kmh too fast for the crappy tramway?
14:36:38  <eekee> i never want to move on to my next game in openttd, i always want to keep polishing the old ones
14:39:46  <Alberth> watching trains is much more fun than building new networks :)
14:40:16  <supermop> Wolf01 I think 'hway', as I am defining it, should have guardrails or walls in town instead of sidewalks maybe? and then wide shoulders outside of town
14:40:58  <supermop> a switch to add guardrails whenever road has foundations would be nice for winding mountain routes
14:42:05  <Wolf01> HWAY in town should be like normal road, they must have guardrails on country, where ROAD should not have them
14:42:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27766 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:42:41 +0100 )
14:42:49  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Obiwan opposed translations for text id D3FF and DCFF in Action 13.
14:42:53  <supermop> was thinking asphalt should not have yellow stripes in town
14:43:02  <eekee> Alberth: yes :) i also like improving old lines better than planning new ones, up to a point
14:43:05  <Wolf01> Obiwan"
14:43:07  <Wolf01> XD
14:43:21  <supermop> its not 100% realistic, but not 100% unrealistic either
14:43:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27767 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:43:21 +0100 )
14:43:28  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Industries and houses should just use the default-case in Action 4.
14:44:05  <supermop> many suburban residential streets do not have them
14:44:21  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27768 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:44:15 +0100 )
14:44:22  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use if and IsInsideMM instead of switch-case sequences to test for consecutive values.
14:44:28  <supermop> but you also cannot drive 100kmph on those streets...
14:45:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27769 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2017-03-05 15:45:13 +0100 )
14:45:20  <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Extend the DCxx range to D800-DFFF.
14:46:45  <andythenorth> Alberth: template fill is via chameleon
14:46:58  <andythenorth> but only inside the python part of the compile
14:47:09  <andythenorth> otherwise just %s or something
14:47:59  <eekee> all this talk about highways is confusing me. i've driven a lot in the south of england: sussex, hampshire, bit of kent and devon. A roads which aren't dual carriageways mostly don't have barriers except at junctions
14:48:52  <supermop> hmm need to split template so that bridge catenary is from a different png than regular wires
14:49:07  <Wolf01> We have moats
14:49:28  <eekee> also we didn't use the word 'highway' much. some brits did, but mostly it was one of those american tv show words
14:49:32  <supermop> eekee: ive diven on roads in cornwall where hedges were rubbing my little Peugeot on both sides
14:49:57  <supermop> granted that was not an A-road
14:50:23  <Samu> just made a standalone patch for sort by aircraft type Alberth, where do i put it? forum?
14:50:29  <eekee> oh i've driven roads that narrow in sussex, but i'm thinking of the a29
14:50:36  <supermop> ugh
14:50:41  <supermop> a29 is brutal
14:50:45  <Samu> the other request is gonna take more time
14:50:45  <eekee> :D
14:50:53  <eekee> it wasn't my favourite road
14:50:56  <supermop> along north coast of devon& cornwall
14:51:09  <eekee> i only went there once
14:51:11  <supermop> was sure I was going to die
14:51:17  <eekee> hahaha
14:51:35  <eekee> i used to race along tiny sussex backroads. stupid really
14:51:47  <eekee> A27 was my favourite road though
14:52:00  <eekee> ... apart from arundel and worthing >.< lol
14:53:57  <supermop> I don't mind west country driving, but a29 has the traffic and speed of a motorway on what seems like a mountain access road
14:54:33  <supermop> was a bit much to do right after landing at Bristol from EWR without having slept at all
14:54:42  <eekee> it wasn't heavily trafficked when i drove it, but i can imagine some of the traffic from the a27 spilling onto it would make it pretty bad
14:54:45  <eekee> yeah!
14:55:04  <Wolf01> supermop usually our roads, at least in northern italy are like this
14:55:15  <eekee> i mostly drove it at quiet times of the day, i think
14:55:25  <supermop> huge busses and lorries coming around those hairpins when i'm already re-acclimating myself to left side driving
14:55:53  <supermop> PAGINA NON TROVATA
14:55:55  <eekee> Wolf01: the a29 is 1.25 to 1.75 times as wide as that.. :)
14:56:21  <Wolf01> Copy the entire link, maybe your client cuts it on some symbol
14:56:26  <eekee> i thought the dover road (a21?) was worse for trucks
14:56:36  <eekee> it's narrower
14:57:02  <eekee> or no... there are narrow parts of the a29
14:57:43  <supermop> Wolf01: asphalt rd would be nice if it could look like that outside of town
14:57:50  <Wolf01> Yup
14:57:54  <Wolf01> It can
14:58:06  <Wolf01> You can check in which town zone you are
14:58:22  <supermop> I need to learn how to do that
14:58:34  <eekee> i'm thinking of making highways as 2 one-way roads
14:58:43  <eekee> dual carriageways, anyway
14:58:45  <Wolf01> Yeah
14:59:07  <supermop> eekee: that's how most players do it, but RVS wont drive in the 'fast' lane
14:59:34  <supermop> also the corners look pretty stupid
14:59:36  <eekee> not even to overtake like they do on regular roads?
14:59:40  <eekee> oh yeah
15:00:00  <Wolf01> It would be cool also if roads could sense the proximity of other roads and slopes to provide different "sidewalk" types
15:00:04  <supermop> then can overtake, but you do not get the huge increase in capacity you'd expect
15:00:15  <eekee> ah, that's a shame
15:00:43  <Wolf01> like this highway, guardrail for downward slope, no guardrail for the upward one
15:00:52  <supermop> Wolf01: yes! like in that tram pic I linked - if tramway is in the middle of two roads, maybe don't put sidewalks there
15:01:09  <eekee> it would help where i have hoverbusses & slow water trucks on the same route, i guess, but then i only use road for that where the land is insanely hilly. hmm!
15:01:50  <Wolf01> And when you build 2 highways adjacent you can make the middle ad a line of trees
15:01:50  <supermop> Wolf01: if guardrail is somehow part of foundation that would work well
15:02:01  <Wolf01>
15:02:33  <supermop> Wolf01: same for wide city boulevards
15:02:38  <Wolf01> +1
15:03:39  <eekee> that's the road the m25 wishes it could be: plenty of lanes for the traffic
15:03:48  <supermop> ok so how do I split the cat template so it gets the first 23 sprites from one png, and the last 6 from another?
15:16:10  <Samu> is notroadtypes able to define overtaking rules?
15:16:15  <Samu> that's interesting
15:16:22  <Wolf01> No
15:16:30  <Samu> :(
15:16:48  <Samu> you can overtake at this road
15:16:52  <Samu> but not on that road
15:17:08  <Samu> but wouldn't it be interesting'
15:17:57  <Wolf01> That could be a flag, used by roadtpes, but how and when is not a task for roadtypes
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15:21:56  <Samu> there are 56 lang files, ouch
15:23:28  <supermop> what about 'no junctions'
15:24:06  <Wolf01> I've got already burned by that
15:24:29  <supermop> thinking about gondolas and chairlifts
15:24:53  <Wolf01> The best solution was "forbid towns to connect to this roadtype"
15:25:32  <Wolf01> I'm also for point-to-point routes
15:25:55  <Samu> "new stringing convention" versus old convention + "append what's missing" at the end of the strings
15:26:03  <Samu> for all languages?
15:26:17  <supermop> Wolf01 yeah a gondola is sort of like a pipe
15:26:34  <supermop> but for now it would be fun to fake it as a tram
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15:27:03  <Wolf01> D=S=========S) <-turnaround (like trams), it should work
15:27:54  <supermop> have to trust people not building junctioned networks of gondolas
15:28:15  <supermop> maybe just define all the junction sprites to be a middle finger
15:28:50  <Samu> i want a string patcher
15:28:56  <Samu> if such thing exists
15:30:42  <Wolf01> Sed
15:31:10  <supermop>
15:31:24  <supermop> how do I make the bridge portion come from a different png?
15:31:57  <Wolf01> supermop, maybe if we insist, also andythenorth considered that
15:33:29  <Samu> find a string with the name "STR_BLA_BLA_BLA", copy the text "that's there already", then append " more text at the end" of "that's there already", to become "that's there already more text at the end"
15:34:58  <Samu> i suppose there is no sed for windows
15:35:02  <eekee> Samu: sed 's/STR_BLA_BLA_BLA.*that's there already/& more text at the end/
15:35:26  <Samu> can notepad++ do something like that?
15:35:45  <Wolf01> Samu, you have windows 10, then you have ubuntu subsystem
15:35:49  <eekee> probably with regexp search & replace
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15:37:09  <eekee> most half-decent text editors have regexp search & replace
15:37:17  <eekee> might be called 'regex' without the p
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15:40:11  <Samu> ?regular expression
15:40:11  *** Snail has quit IRC
15:40:23  <Samu> notepad does have this seach method, but... not sure how to use it
15:40:26  <Samu> notepad++
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15:41:10  <supermop> brb
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15:43:07  <frosch123> i still have no good idea for how to allow industries to specify multiple station names :/
15:45:16  <Alberth> would be townname-ish, perhaps?
15:45:30  <Alberth> some parts as prefix, and some parts as suffix
15:45:50  <Alberth> or maybe only as suffix (of the town name)
15:46:38  <frosch123> question is whether industries are allowed to influence which name is picked
15:46:42  <frosch123> or whether it is pure random
15:46:59  <frosch123> in both cases the name should survive updating the grf
15:47:02  <Alberth> why would an industry want to influence the choice?
15:47:13  <Alberth> a steel mill is a steelmill, right?
15:47:23  <Alberth> s/ m/m/
15:47:24  <frosch123> depending on town size, height or whatever
15:48:00  <frosch123> like the default station names pick east/west/heights/forrest/...
15:48:05  <planetmaker> o/
15:48:20  <Alberth> I'd like to influence townname based on xy location (or percentage, perhaps)
15:48:24  <Alberth> hi hi planetmaker
15:48:27  <frosch123> we can store some index in the savegame, but we need a reliable way to again get a string for that
15:48:28  <planetmaker> don't we already have a choice list which industries can supply?
15:48:35  <planetmaker> or was it only one?
15:48:45  <frosch123> planetmaker: it's only one
15:49:06  <frosch123> i thought about adding *two* callbacks
15:49:31  <Alberth> tweak chances?
15:49:35  <frosch123> first one gets an industry id, tile and everything and is queried with random bits to decide a station name
15:49:39  <Alberth> becomes horribly expensive perhaps
15:49:54  <planetmaker> I suggest that then the industry NewGRF may suggest names, maybe even an ordered preference list. But the name is then copied to the station - thus after the station is built, it doesn't query the NewGRF anymore
15:50:03  <frosch123> the second has no industry, and is only used to give the string based on the info stored in the savegame
15:50:17  <planetmaker> s/after/when/
15:50:26  <frosch123> it's similar to vehicle refitting with subtypes, except that vehicles cannot close while the stationame remains
15:53:51  <planetmaker> Hm... actually I really wonder whether we need really per-language names for stations. It seems awkward anyway
15:54:15  <planetmaker> IMHO it would be fine, if stationnames were chosen by the language setting of the player building the station
15:54:25  <Alberth> can't you point to a townname parts from the industry?
15:54:30  <planetmaker> it would also make it easier to communicate when talking about stations
15:54:53  <Alberth> industry can pick different parts id based on some preference
15:54:54  <planetmaker> and then you can just store the name once and for all and have no newgrf-change issue
15:55:02  <planetmaker> but ok... bike shedding :)
15:55:15  <frosch123> planetmaker: townnames are not stored as text in savegames
15:55:36  <frosch123> it's just that andy does not do townname grfs, and thus they do not change that often
15:55:43  <planetmaker> yes, I know... but they cannot be renamed by players
15:55:48  <planetmaker> stations can
15:55:56  <frosch123> players can also rename towns
15:56:01  <planetmaker> ups :)
15:56:10  <Alberth> so you store the pointed-to townname parts, and the random bits
15:56:20  <frosch123> though there is a setting to disable renaming in multiplayer, because some people were annoyed by trolls
15:56:21  <planetmaker> well, then yes, the same mechanism as there
16:01:37  <eekee> once i saw a town and all its stations and my company renamed by an update to openttd, gannington -> ganton. english names, no grf
16:07:17  <Samu> oh, even visual studio got a regular expression search mode, woah, call me impressed
16:07:31  <frosch123> problem with townnames is that they are not translatablwe
16:07:35  <frosch123> which is terrible for singleplayer
16:08:44  <planetmaker> why is that horrible for SP? You mean MP?
16:09:14  <frosch123> if you have set everything to german, why should all stations near firs industries have english names?
16:10:25  <frosch123> you can pick a town name set of your liking
16:10:41  <frosch123> but adding a parameter to a industry set to control which language the station names use, is just weird
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16:11:16  <eekee> do you mean, like, "dresden brickworks"?
16:11:59  <frosch123> klein kleckersdorf tanner road
16:12:07  <eekee> right
16:12:24  <eekee> that would be firs which needs translating, wouldn't it?
16:12:54  <eekee> or am i misunderstanding what 'tanner road' is? :)
16:13:25  <frosch123> stations near firs mines are named "tanner road" when you use english
16:13:43  <frosch123> if station names would work like townnames, they would be fixed and not translateable
16:15:21  <eekee> near *mines*???
16:16:08  <eekee> now wondering what's wrong with firs :)
16:16:26  <frosch123> currently they are translated, which makes stations near mines named "Bergwerk" in german
16:16:39  <eekee> ok
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16:27:42  <andythenorth> random lists?
16:27:52  * andythenorth has only part-read the transcript :)
16:28:46  <frosch123> well, if noone once to influence which name is picked, i would just go for a purchase-list-style callback, that builds a list of up to 256 names or so
16:28:55  <frosch123> s/once/wants/
16:28:59  <frosch123> english :/
16:29:52  <frosch123> ottd would then save the index to that list in the savegame
16:30:11  <frosch123> and it's the grf's responsibility to only extend the list at the end
16:30:39  <Alberth> how is that different from selecting parts from a townname list?
16:31:01  <frosch123> the names would be translateable
16:31:28  <Alberth> ah, of course
16:31:48  <frosch123> and i do not see how one would compose station names from multiple parts
16:32:16  <frosch123> unless you go for Peter Watt Avenue
16:32:55  <frosch123> but that would not be industry specific anymore
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16:33:23  <frosch123> but rather for town-based stations
16:33:45  <frosch123> we could extent the townname spec to also provide station names, in the same language as the town names
16:34:04  <frosch123> that works for street names
16:34:59  <Alberth> combined multiple parts is also a lot harder to translate
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16:42:13  <fonsinchen> It seems there are multiple interesting forks of OpenTTD around these days. Maybe something should be done to counter the growing fragmentation.
16:45:46  <frosch123> i don't think anyone is interested in making the features work with each other
16:46:58  <fonsinchen> Yes, that's kind of a problem ...
16:47:10  <fonsinchen> I don't really see a solution either
16:47:28  <frosch123> i think it is fine as long as the add-ons (gs and newgrf) work with each of them
16:47:42  <Wolf01> I think I'll make my own NRT too, without OTTD
16:47:48  <frosch123> patchpacks are imho a good solution to provide more specialised features
16:48:11  <fonsinchen> Wolf01: What is "NRT"?
16:48:21  <Wolf01> NotRoadTypes
16:48:45  <Alberth> a whole new fork :)
16:48:50  <frosch123> also, doesn't jgrpp include everything?
16:49:00  <Alberth> almost, afaik
16:49:15  <fonsinchen> There are some performance improvements and bug fixes that could very well be applied to mainline ottd, though.
16:49:30  <frosch123> fonsinchen: fs#6540 is for you then :)
16:49:49  <Alberth> :)
16:50:12  <frosch123> hmm, or is that older than cdist?
16:50:16  <frosch123> it looked like cdist at first
16:52:13  <fonsinchen> It is cdist, and a simple "forgot to initialize variable" problem AFAICS
16:56:52  <fonsinchen> Well, some of it. The _cargo_source_xy and _cargo_feeder_share stuff is older but the same problem
17:06:21  <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r27770 trunk/src/saveload/station_sl.cpp (2017-03-05 18:06:14 +0100 )
17:06:22  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6540]: Initialize variables in station_sl.cpp (JGR)
17:06:26  <fonsinchen> There we go.
17:06:36  <frosch123> :)
17:09:23  <eekee> every time i open a train window, it's pinned. is this intentional, or is it a bug from running on a 5 year old linux system?
17:10:51  <frosch123> eekee: ctrl-click the pin icon saves the pin-state for the next time
17:11:02  <frosch123> so unpin it, and then ctrl-click the pin
17:13:35  <eekee> thanks, i discovered that & forgot it
17:13:50  <eekee> that worked ^^
17:17:17  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I wondered about the forks
17:17:26  <andythenorth> multiple viable forks is a good thing I think :)
17:17:51  <SpComb> looking at what JGR is doing, it does start to kind of look like a viable fork
17:18:12  <SpComb> dunno how long most PPs tend to live for
17:19:05  <andythenorth> most seem to die, often the maintainer probably just can’t keep up
17:19:11  <andythenorth> things I wondered….
17:19:12  <frosch123> SpComb: jgr is around for long enough, and is likely past graduation, so it is unlikely that he would stop any time
17:19:44  <andythenorth> - encourage them to use the ottd build infrastructure?  it was easy for TB to add NRT to it.  OTOH, multiple people maintaining build farms might be not bad either
17:20:04  <andythenorth> - encourage them to use github or something where we can see their repo publicly?
17:20:22  <frosch123> the latter is the case :)
17:21:54  <Samu> i don't know how to use visual studio regular expression
17:22:18  <Samu> what do i put in find?
17:22:23  <Samu> what do i put in replace
17:22:42  <frosch123> other pp died precisely the moment they got a compile farm :p
17:23:14  <Samu> find what:
17:23:16  <Samu> replace with:
17:23:37  <SpComb> although, maybe the true qualifier for a fork would be a patchpack with multiple maintainers
17:24:09  <andythenorth> so what are the current forks?
17:24:19  <SpComb> I think PPs die when their maintainers lose interest and stop playing the game themselves
17:24:20  <andythenorth> JGR, Cirdan, NRT, Luukland (ahem)
17:24:53  <frosch123> i have no idea whether reddit and btpro share their client
17:24:54  <andythenorth> OpenTTD Spring PP 2013 seems to be active
17:25:28  <eekee> Samu: . matches any 1 character, usualy not including newline. . * matches zero or more or the preceeding thing, so .* matches any number of characters. there are other special characters which you can escape with \ for a literal match. you'd best see visual studio's documentation, because different programs have different regexps
17:25:36  <frosch123> i would think that all single-player-focused pp are superceeded by jgrpp
17:25:56  <andythenorth> this is TB’s post explaining build-farm philosophy
17:26:27  <Samu> Replace with: i have no idea
17:26:49  <Samu> i want it to take what's already there, then add more stuff at the end
17:27:13  <andythenorth> my other ‘I wonder’ is same as fonsinchen’s - are PPs testing any useful patches that would be valid for trunk
17:27:29  <eekee> Samu: & in replace *probably* stands for what was matched
17:27:30  <Alberth> just ignore the too long string names, Samu
17:28:12  <andythenorth> Alberth: I was afk most of afternoon, did the template answer help? o_O
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17:29:00  <Alberth> thanks, I missed that, highlighting is broken
17:29:14  <Alberth> euhm, I guess so
17:30:02  <Samu> Replace with: &{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
17:30:09  <Samu> let me see
17:31:29  <Samu> Alberth: im still learning
17:31:37  <Samu> then i'll do it the other way
17:32:07  <Alberth> andythenorth:  I made some small applications for parts of the problem
17:32:25  <Samu> {}Aircraft Type: {STRING} was placed at the start of the line, i wanted it at the end of it
17:32:31  <Samu> almost there
17:32:45  <andythenorth> Alberth: neat :)
17:32:48  <Alberth> which mostly is missing a template expander
17:32:49  <andythenorth> portable, reusable
17:33:05  <Alberth> that's my hope somewhat :)
17:33:09  <andythenorth> is there some off-the-shelf template expander we can use?
17:33:13  <andythenorth> chameleon is all wrong for this :P
17:33:40  <andythenorth> is something doing %s out of the question?  I find it hard to read, but it seems widely used
17:34:14  <Alberth> I have some code for it, but that it's for a larger scale, I'd need to downsize it
17:34:26  <Alberth> may be useful anyway to extend my solution with that
17:34:38  <Alberth> otherwise something string template-ish?
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17:34:52  <Alberth> didn't look at that at all, no idea what it does
17:35:23  <Alberth> %s  is hard to use if you replace 2 elements in a file :)
17:35:36  <Alberth> you can't tell which replacement goes where :)
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17:35:51  <Alberth> but something unique like %blah% is simple enough
17:36:02  <Samu> replace with: &'{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
17:36:44  <Alberth> you're not trying to extend the text of the string, are you?
17:37:08  <Alberth> unless you write 40 different languages fluently, of course
17:39:00  <andythenorth> bash templating?
17:40:18  <andythenorth> or python standard lib Template, but it seems a bit Fisher Price :P
17:41:06  <Alberth> my idea is still make a sequence of key=value pairs at the command-line, and a filename for the template
17:41:30  <Alberth> then replace %key% by the value, for each pair in the text of the template
17:41:40  <Alberth> write the result out to an output file
17:41:47  <frosch123> isn't "deflating" the uncompressing part of zip?
17:41:57  <Samu> don't know how to use this grr
17:42:21  <Samu> deflate is compressing
17:42:33  <Samu> inflate is decompressing
17:42:53  <frosch123> what is the difference between "bin/find-files -e bla" and "find . -name '*.bla'"? or do you want to create your own mingw?
17:43:26  <Alberth> apparently not frosch123
17:44:02  <frosch123> that is gzip?
17:44:16  <Alberth> bin/find-files takes more directories, but otherwise, I agree very little different from regular find
17:44:18  <frosch123> from the help message it read like zip
17:44:30  <Alberth> zipfile module is zip
17:45:07  <Alberth>  gzip is named 'gzip'  :)
17:45:36  <frosch123> i thought zlib was about gzip
17:45:48  <Alberth> no, zlib is much older
17:45:53  <Alberth> it's   .Z
17:46:06  <frosch123> oh, compress/decompress
17:48:57  <Alberth> find just have a much more weird syntax
17:49:10  <Alberth> as it can do more than just finding files by name
17:49:18  <frosch123> yep, it is ancient :)
17:50:09  <Alberth> it's quite powerful, find files by modification date, size, access rights, etc
17:51:34  <frosch123> i have used it for log rotation :)
17:52:01  <eekee> i use find -type f; regular files only
17:53:28  <Alberth> andythenorth:   seems to mostly work, just wrap a command-line around it
17:54:20  <andythenorth> +1
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18:11:34  <andythenorth> frosch123: got an answer for industry names yet? o_O
18:11:44  <andythenorth> industry [station] names
18:13:06  <frosch123> the answer so far is that newgrf do not need any influence on which name is picked
18:13:33  <frosch123> and would just provide a list choices, which ottd picks randomly from
18:14:09  <andythenorth> seems sound
18:14:32  * andythenorth is not the set of all industry authors….but…
18:14:51  <andythenorth> station names feature is probably the least interesting of industry properties
18:15:04  <andythenorth> it’s kind of nice, and there’s an obligation to use it because it’s there
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18:15:10  <andythenorth> but really it adds almost nothing :P
18:15:25  <frosch123> it's candy
18:15:28  <andythenorth> yup
18:15:49  <andythenorth> someone else can make some FIRS commits in future then :D
18:18:50  <supermop> yo
18:19:05  <supermop> still no idea how to get this template to work
18:27:46  <supermop> is it possible? to pull catenary sprites from two pngs?
18:28:14  <frosch123> yes, just split your template in the middle
18:29:11  <frosch123> or do you mean to draw multipe sprites on the same tile?
18:35:29  <Samu> eekee: find what: (^STR_ENGINE_PREVIEW_COST_MAX_SPEED_CAPACITY_CAPACITY_RUNCOST)(.*)(\b)
18:35:47  <Samu> eekee: replace with: {}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
18:36:01  <Samu> it works
18:36:26  <Samu> end of line character was difficult to deal with
18:36:44  <Samu> (\b) solved it
18:38:11  <supermop> frosch123: i did this so far:
18:38:57  <supermop> but i'm not sure how to say that tmpl_wire_bridge will use a different png file
18:39:38  <andythenorth> 59 uses of #define left in FIRS
18:39:46  * andythenorth has a goal :P
18:41:43  <frosch123> supermop: <- i think that works
18:42:00  <supermop> oooh thanks!
18:42:03  <supermop> ill try it
18:44:34  <Samu> i think {}Aircraft Type: {STRING} is better
18:44:40  <Samu> let me test
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18:49:15  <Samu> must find end of line differences, grrr
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18:52:49  <mr_wee> Guten Abend zusammen
18:53:29  <supermop> frosch123: would it be possible to test whether tram tile has road, or vis versa?
18:54:16  <planetmaker> frosch123, supermob: you can also create one template with two filenames as parameter
18:54:29  <supermop> ah hmm
18:54:46  <frosch123> supermop: we added that to the todo list the other day
18:55:07  <supermop> I haven't compiled to test yet bc i'm also trying to add a town zone switch at the moment
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18:57:17  <Samu> ah, it works fine either way
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19:23:12  <andythenorth> child #1 wants a ‘industry catches fire’ disaster
19:23:17  <andythenorth> which requires a fire plane
19:23:32  <supermop> +100
19:23:33  <andythenorth> he also, left unsupervised, built 2 tile wide canals, ‘so the boats fit'
19:23:55  <supermop> what are canal costs set at?
19:25:05  <andythenorth> dunno
19:27:00  <planetmaker> how old is child #1? :)
19:27:09  <planetmaker> must be not so new anymore, is he?
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19:28:27  <andythenorth> 7
19:28:43  <Alberth> boats fitting in the canal are highly important
19:48:11  <Wolf01> We should let kids play and implement their suggestions, the games will be really more fun
19:48:54  <supermop> +1
19:49:14  <Wolf01> If a kid says "wtf, it shouldn't work this way", it really shouldn't work this way, kids always tell the truth
19:49:51  <Wolf01> If a kid tells you that you have an ugly ass, you have an ugly ass :D
19:50:07  <supermop> D:
19:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it's either that, or someone else told them you have an ugly ass, and they're just repeating what they were told.
19:51:38  <Wolf01> So andy's kid is biased?
19:51:58  <Wolf01> "tell'em you want double canals so ships fit"
19:52:41  <Samu> number of spaces matter
19:52:49  <supermop> add age verification to suggestions forum so only users under 10 can post
19:53:12  <Wolf01> Yup >10 only flame :P
19:53:13  <Samu> _TYPE{}Aircraft Type: {STRING}
19:53:34  <Samu> i can rename strings like a pro now, lol
19:55:13  <Samu> Find all "(^STR_ENGINE_PREVIEW_COST_MAX_SPEED_CAPACITY_CAPACITY_RUNCOST)(     )(.*)(\b)", Regular expressions, Subfolders, Find Results 1, Entire Solution, ""
19:55:46  <Samu> Matching lines: 56    Matching files: 56    Total files searched: 1053
19:55:54  <Samu> there's 56 language files
19:56:25  <Samu> clicking Replace All
19:56:45  <frosch123> supermop: physical or mental age?
19:57:21  <Samu> oh yesh, visual studio just opened 56 files... just so that I can "undo"
19:58:48  <supermop> hah
20:00:21  <supermop> I'm going to break convention and make tram tracks more brown
20:00:49  <supermop> otherwise they need to be too bright to show up on roads
20:02:05  <Samu> it can compile
20:02:17  <Samu> it's building... woah, i'm impressed
20:15:34  <supermop> brown doesnt work - too many years of seeing rails as grey
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20:19:20  <Samu> there are 2 language files that do not have some strings, is that intended?
20:19:31  <Samu> found 54 occurences
20:19:43  <Samu> the ones about aircraft range weren't found
20:20:46  <Samu> let me find this better, wanna make sure
20:23:09  <Samu> darn ship string getting in the way
20:23:14  <supermop> gonna add a few rust flecks in the shadows
20:26:23  <Samu> looks like it's intended?
20:26:32  <Samu> there's actually 64 language files
20:26:50  <Samu> 8 unfinished
20:26:53  <Samu> makes it 56
20:27:19  <Samu> 2 of these 56 don't have strings for displaying aircraft range in the preview window, it seems
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20:35:22  <Samu> nevermind, i'm dumb, false alarm
20:36:00  <Samu> it was esperanto and arabic egypt
20:36:59  <Samu> the reason they were missing was because untraslated strings aren't even copied into the lang files
20:40:46  <Alberth> yep, anything missing from a translation is not translated
20:41:40  <Alberth> I think the strgen program handles copying, but not sure
20:49:03  <supermop> gravel needs to be a bit darker I Wolf01, no?
20:49:16  <Wolf01> Not sure
20:51:59  <Wolf01> There are different colors of gravel roads, and most of them depends on usage
20:54:44  <supermop> struglling to get tramway to show up clearly on gravel
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21:01:01  <Wolf01> And if you forbid building tramway over gravel?
21:01:23  <Wolf01> (not yet available at this stage, but just consider it)
21:01:41  <supermop> that would be fine, if possible, but it might be nice to have around quarries and mines
21:02:06  <Wolf01> Sure
21:03:00  <supermop> so if I have a town zone based switch.. how does that work?
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21:05:51  <frosch123> switch(FEAT_ROADTYPES, SELF, town_zone) { 4: center_sprites; 3: inner_sprites; 2:outer_sprites; 1:outskirt_sprites: default: faraway_sprites }
21:05:59  <supermop> there are 5 zones? and 5 is the most center?
21:06:05  <supermop> oh
21:06:38  <supermop> so 0 is like no town zone
21:06:47  <Wolf01> 0 is country
21:10:34  <Eddi|zuHause> town zones work like this: small towns (inner) 2-1-0 (outer), large towns: (inner) 5-4-3-1-0 (outer)
21:10:43  <supermop> so I wonder what the easiest way to use this to good effect in the grf is
21:11:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so for large towns there is no 2, but it's split into 3+4+5
21:11:28  <frosch123> there is no 5
21:11:39  <supermop> perhaps some way to differentiate asphalt and hway?
21:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> are you sure?
21:11:50  <frosch123> supermop: 4 should be some kind of pedestrian zone
21:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i've heard lots of talk about a town zone 5
21:12:16  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause pedestrian zone on the highway might get messy
21:12:24  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: look at HouseZonesBits
21:12:33  <frosch123> the rest is about counting from 0 or from 1
21:13:01  <frosch123> supermop: in that case, noise barriers
21:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately, i cannot investigate this right now
21:13:47  <supermop> hmm where to steal some good gpl barriers
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21:18:41  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: <- i guess you want to look at that
21:18:52  <supermop> will have to just be pink lines for now, want to test
21:19:25  <supermop> don't want to draw right now, just spent an hour trying to make tram tracks slightly brown
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21:21:37  <supermop> in a regular small town, are there any houses in zone 0?
21:22:30  <frosch123> yes
21:22:38  <supermop> I find in big cities, too much of the town area is the densest zone
21:23:28  <supermop> the radius of the center is huge compared to the thickness of the belts of outer zones
21:23:32  <frosch123> zone 0 is still in the town
21:23:48  <frosch123> outside of town would be zone -1, but that does not exist, and is treated like zone 0
21:24:14  <supermop> for example, the zone with trees ends up looking like an expanding thin circle
21:25:24  <supermop> I guess I am wondering, is there a zone without sidewalks that is still distinct from countryside
21:27:10  <frosch123> no idea, i do not play pax games, so i am not that familar with how towns actually look like
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22:04:46  <supermop> hmm I wonder what will happen if I draw a curved guard rail for a highway curve, and then tram on that tile goes straight
22:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> <supermop> I guess I am wondering, is there a zone without sidewalks that is still distinct from countryside <-- no, anything that would apply sidewalks to areas not currently covered with sidewalks will add sidewalks to the whole map
22:07:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <supermop> hmm I wonder what will happen if I draw a curved guard rail for a highway curve, and then tram on that tile goes straight <-- it will look weird
22:07:32  <supermop> trams will drive through the rail
22:07:41  <supermop> same with noise barriers
22:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but straight tram on curved road already looks a bit weird anyway
22:08:08  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i would just forbid trams on highway roads
22:08:21  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but that flag might not be part of the first implementation
22:08:30  <supermop> i could wait until either forbidding tramway on roadtype, or custom fences is supported
22:11:29  <supermop> so for now need a different way to differential regular asphalt and highway
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22:12:10  <supermop> currently hway has shoulder and aspt has curb
22:12:25  <supermop> aspt also has crosswalk at intersection
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22:17:29  <supermop> 100kph is also a bit fast for an asphalt town road
22:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> 80 is max in town areas, usually
22:23:52  <Eddi|zuHause> 70 if there are traffic lights
22:24:14  <supermop> yeah. I nudged it down to 80 to make HWAY more special, but now I need to add a faster trolleybus waytype, maybe bus guideway
22:24:55  <supermop> not sure if trolleybuses ever go that fast
22:25:23  <supermop> but in game seems like you'd need them to, to keep up with model progression
22:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a "duobus" system where the busses go part of their way on guiderails
22:27:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the intention was that they go on guiderails with trolley wire, on normal roads with trolley wire and on normal roads without trolley wire
22:27:34  <supermop> does my switch need to go right where the roadtype block is in my code? or does it go by the graphics?
22:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> switches usually go near the graphics
22:28:00  <supermop> going to ready nml specs
22:28:03  <supermop> read
22:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> you want to keep the distance between the switch and the graphics block which uses it small
22:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> to not block too many switch IDs
22:36:10  <supermop> like this?
22:38:52  <supermop> how does my roadtype block as to use that switch?
22:47:02  <Eddi|zuHause> your switch misses an identifier
22:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and you put that identifier in the graphics block
22:47:21  <supermop> can the id be anything i want?
22:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so long as it follows the usual rules for identifier
22:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so only letters, numbers and underscore (_) and first character cannot be a number
22:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and, of course, it must be unique
22:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> (within the whole nml file)
22:50:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (and not be a reserverd word, like "switch")
22:50:35  <supermop> gah damn
22:50:46  <supermop> I just wrote "asphalt_switch"
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23:56:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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