Log for #openttd on 25th March 2017:
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00:01:09  <Samu_> anyone here can help?
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00:18:18  <supermop_home> alright peter1138, now its yamazaki and soda time
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00:27:05  <peter1138> nah, it's bed time
00:34:01  <Samu_> peter1138: updated
00:34:05  <Samu_> what u think?
00:34:20  <peter1138> Erm
00:34:23  <Samu_> or are you in bed already
00:34:25  <peter1138> honestly
00:34:27  <peter1138> looks like ass
00:35:16  <peter1138> looks like flood plains everywhere
00:36:06  <Samu_> yeah :(
00:38:07  <Samu_> those town bridges can still ruin placement of locks
00:39:39  <Samu_> flood plains, hmm, i see that it makes many lakes now
00:40:12  <Samu_> rivers that don't go to ocean
00:40:25  <peter1138> that's why you want carving
00:40:39  <peter1138> preferably with sweeping curves
00:40:43  <peter1138> big job
00:40:54  <peter1138> if it was easy someone else would've already done it
00:40:56  <peter1138> night
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00:45:47  <supermop_home> rainfall river generator
00:52:27  <supermop_home> Samu_ the rivers look bad to us, but my wife just walked in here and said "well that's what rivers do" so I think it is a matter of expectation
00:53:16  <Samu_> =_=
00:53:53  <Samu_> i have a dilema
00:54:40  <Samu_> i can disable lakes, but this would make mountainous terran quite impossible to generate rivers
00:54:55  <Samu_> terrain*
00:55:18  <Samu_> without lakes, all rivers that get generates will lead to ocean
00:55:23  <Samu_> generated*
00:56:14  <Samu_> or, i can make lakes larger, but they look like big squares
00:56:33  <Samu_> flood plains would become more flooded
00:56:44  <Samu_> not good to see
00:57:06  <Samu_> or leave it like it is right now, rivers leading to nowhere
00:57:53  <Samu_> part of the problem is still the issue of compatibility with locks
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02:01:15  <Supercheese> @commit 27822
02:01:16  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Commit by peter1138 :: r27822 /trunk/src (6 files in 4 dirs) (2017-03-24 08:33:31 +0100 )
02:01:17  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: -Feature: Vehicle Group Info: Add profits and occupancy display to group vehicle list (mtm, JGR)
02:01:38  <Supercheese> "occupancy display"
02:02:08  <Supercheese> Is that "percentage of the total vehicles of this type that belong to this group"?
02:02:46  * Supercheese is confused
02:03:36  <Supercheese> Aha, seems based on:
02:04:08  <Supercheese>
02:04:13  <Supercheese> Still slightly confused, but ok
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02:41:08  <supermop_home> ??
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03:12:01  <dlite> if I have a wagon full of goods and I set it to refit at certain station to some other cargo type, will it unload the goods or will the goods be destroyed?
03:14:35  <Supercheese> you'd best unload the goods before you refit
03:19:20  <dlite> getting a vehicle to "transfer and take cargo with refit" was a bit unintuitive
03:19:27  <dlite> but seems to do what I want
03:23:51  <Supercheese> yep
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05:09:46  <SimYouLater> Hey, I'm still having trouble with the specs of ships for blueFISH. I'll start with the speed. My test vehicle is supposed to have an ocean top speed of 18 km/h. Instead it has an ocean speed of 20 km/h. ocean_speed_fraction is set to 1.
05:10:04  <SimYouLater> Could I get some assistance?
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05:42:32  <Alberth> hola
05:50:45  <Rubidium> ola
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06:23:43  <andythenorth> o/
06:32:43  <Alberth> moin
06:37:07  <Alberth> great IH, I started upgrading to diesel (Chinooks) with 55t wagons, number of trains isn't decreasing much, but they get shorter
06:37:31  <andythenorth> it doesn’t quite match up though :)
06:37:45  <andythenorth> the chinook is longer than the steam engine it replaces
06:38:18  <Alberth> ah, yes, could be, I remove the existing trains completely, as I change the wagons too
06:38:35  <andythenorth> IH will be having a few tweaks ;)
06:38:39  <andythenorth> is shorter better?
06:38:52  <Alberth> also, I "discovered" refit at station :p
06:40:01  <Alberth> not sure if shorter is better or not, my stations are way too long for my trains, so it doesn't make any difference
06:40:17  <Alberth> platforms are 5 or 6, trains around 4
06:40:45  <andythenorth> yeah I get about the same
06:41:08  <Alberth> I had more 30t wagons, but they are shorter, so total length isn't that much different
06:41:26  <andythenorth> ‘refit at station’ is a winning tactic
06:41:49  <andythenorth> I almost think that that the old refit button should be removed, although it’s more obvious to players
06:42:00  <Alberth> power is a bit less, I think, chinook is a bit slower, but it carries more cargo, at 6x freight multiply
06:42:54  <Alberth> "old" refit button?
06:43:06  <andythenorth> depot refit
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06:43:55  <Alberth> depends perhaps, you can limit refit capabilities heavily if you want
06:44:23  <andythenorth> also station refit can’t do subtypes
06:44:38  <Alberth> some more realistic sets likely have very limited refit capabilities, or eg nuts has none
06:44:55  <Alberth> nor does default set :)
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06:46:37  <Alberth> I am not used to having refit available :)
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06:47:28  <Alberth> orders with refit are a bit magic though, took a few attempts before I got it right
06:48:32  <andythenorth> occasionally they are buggy
06:49:01  <andythenorth> sometimes first time a  train arrives at station, it just doesn’t refit
06:49:17  <andythenorth> all vehicles on same shared orders will do same thing
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06:56:18  <Alberth> indeed, I had to force it at first with "full load" :)
06:59:17  <andythenorth> sometimes running the route does it
06:59:30  <andythenorth> I suspect it’s an interaction with cdist and vehicle reservations
07:00:44  <Alberth> sounds very possible
07:02:48  <peter1138> Supercheese, "how full they are"
07:03:25  <Supercheese> yeah, looks like it
07:07:25  <peter1138> More useful for passengers/mail than other cargo
07:13:58  <andythenorth> ach forests
07:15:50  <andythenorth>
07:15:52  <andythenorth> crappy
07:23:29  <andythenorth> 9 trees, like default forest?  Instead of 4?
07:43:38  <andythenorth>
07:53:37  <peter1138> yes
07:57:23  <Alberth> dense looks better imho
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08:04:25  <andythenorth> now I have to have two lots of magic :)
08:04:26  <andythenorth> nvm
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08:13:26  * andythenorth wonders about other industries with trees
08:13:52  <andythenorth> vineyard is pretty bad
08:25:42  <Alberth> vineyard doesn't have many tress, does it?
08:26:10  <peter1138> Only if it's mismanaged
08:26:18  <andythenorth> I should probably draw vines
08:26:32  <andythenorth> I have never drawn any trees or organic stuff :P
08:26:37  <andythenorth> drew a cow
08:26:42  <Alberth> lines of smaller bushes, mostly
08:26:48  <andythenorth> grapes don’t come from cows :P
08:27:02  <Alberth> :p
08:27:51  <Alberth> it does look pretty, if you ignore its function, though
08:28:37  <Alberth> :o textile mill only in extreme?
08:28:42  <andythenorth> yup
08:28:57  <andythenorth> vineyard would be better as farm fields
08:29:03  <andythenorth> newgrf fields anyone? o_O
08:29:37  <Alberth> there are more industries for extreme-only :o
08:30:16  <Alberth> newgrf fields would be really nice, wouldn't it
08:30:41  <Alberth> they do tend to get slaughtered by crossing rail-tracks though
08:32:23  <andythenorth> they do
08:32:29  <andythenorth> but somehow it probably doesn’t matter
08:32:37  <andythenorth> never bothers me for farms at least
08:33:13  <andythenorth> sheep farm, for example, would be much better if surrounded by fields of sheep
08:35:30  <peter1138> is newgrf fields not a thing?
08:35:35  <andythenorth> not yet
08:36:17  <andythenorth> was tried 7 years ago
08:37:29  <peter1138> classy
08:37:39  <peter1138> lots of penises
08:38:10  <andythenorth> tinker fields
08:39:53  <peter1138> what was wrong with it 7 years ago?
08:40:01  <andythenorth> can’t remember :P
08:40:06  <andythenorth> frosch might remember
08:40:24  <andythenorth> also chores, biab
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09:55:23  <Wolf01> o/
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10:04:00  <Samu> hi
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10:17:11  <andythenorth> o/
10:17:14  <Wolf01> Meow
10:18:13  <andythenorth> uniform forest trees, or 2 tiles, mixed up?
10:18:19  <andythenorth> and should I put more machinery or tracks in?
10:18:33  <andythenorth>
10:18:34  <Wolf01> that's for you
10:19:00  <andythenorth> and should I spend the next 2 days animating tree cutting and growth, with random triggers :P
10:19:05  <Wolf01> Put a dirt road
10:20:07  <Wolf01>
10:23:04  <andythenorth> I should
10:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the repeating pattern is too strong, you should only use one type of tree
10:25:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or have a lot mmore randomness
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10:28:09  <Samu> there is no single ai prepared to build routes on rivers
10:28:15  <Samu> that's sad :(
10:28:23  <Wolf01> Make one
10:28:37  <Samu> there's also a bug with getting the closest ship depot
10:28:43  <Samu> peter1138: halp
10:28:54  <Wolf01> Let him sleep, is saturday
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10:28:59  <Samu> ok
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10:29:09  <Samu> he went to bed earlier than me
10:31:25  <Samu> dictator ai doesn't know that it has to build locks to move ships on inclined slopes
10:31:40  <Samu> shipai doesn't build on rivers at all, only at sea
10:33:17  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: one tree might be better, like default game
10:34:35  <andythenorth> or the whole thing has to be much more random
10:34:45  <andythenorth> with paths and machines and so on
10:34:59  <Wolf01> Can't you just randomize tree bits?
10:35:09  <Wolf01> Or it's a fixed png?
10:35:22  <andythenorth> it’s base set trees
10:36:09  <Wolf01> IMO, all the forests should work like tropical ones
10:36:17  <Wolf01> With actual trees on the map
10:36:52  <Wolf01> So they will be randomized by the game itself, and you can even plant more to "fix" the production
10:40:31  <andythenorth> I have considered it many timews
10:40:35  <andythenorth> but planting trees is boring
10:40:56  <Wolf01> Make the forest plant them by itself
10:41:21  <andythenorth> patch
10:41:38  <Wolf01> As soon as the sawmill cuts a tile, it should already prepare the new saplings
10:43:49  <andythenorth> animated fields would be better for that ;)
10:44:12  <Wolf01> Yeah, make a sawmill like a farm :P
10:44:38  <andythenorth> newgrf fields...
10:44:42  <Wolf01> Also, do farms decrease production if I remove fields?
10:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik no
10:45:24  <Wolf01> Samu, go and implement that XD
10:45:28  <andythenorth> they don’t
10:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the fields know which industry they belong to, but the industry does not know about fields
10:45:51  <andythenorth> ah maybe that was why the patch failed
10:46:04  <andythenorth> I think frosch got stuck removing fields from closed industries
10:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that already works, but it is done in the tileloop, so there is a short timeframe where the fields still exist, but do not know what to draw because the industry is gone
10:48:33  <andythenorth> so they lose their reference?
10:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:48:45  <andythenorth> which means fields would need to be a type of tile, with their own storage?
10:49:03  <andythenorth> I think the patch relied on them being able to make a callback against the industry
10:49:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> they have storage
10:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but not enough, probably
10:49:51  <Wolf01> Also industries should have a tile_field_counter to use in production calculation, and when a tile gets destroyed or created should increment or decrement the counter
10:49:53  <andythenorth> and in default game, it’s just a flag, and the game knows what to draw?
10:50:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the default fields have only like 4 states
10:50:27  <andythenorth> yes
10:50:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the states are stored in the tile
10:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it could be "solved" by just demanding the newgrf coder to prepare for this case
10:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> field tiles would get their own newgrf type independent from industry (tile), and then you declare that their PARENT (industry) might not always exist (i.e. industry shut down)
10:53:20  <Eddi|zuHause> they would then behave like objects
10:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> just the industry places them instead of the player
10:54:57  <Eddi|zuHause> fields, plantations, forests, power lines, ...
11:01:12  <andythenorth> that seems the most viable route
11:01:39  <andythenorth> there would be a cb on the industry when objects are being built, and it would return layouts
11:01:58  <andythenorth> which are IDs of objects provided by the newgrf
11:02:29  <andythenorth> although it seems appealing to make the objects reflect things like industry production, I think it’s unhelpful and unnecessary
11:13:06  <Samu> hmm buoys can prevent oil rigs from spawning
11:14:24  <Samu> ship depots too
11:14:51  <andythenorth> that’s correct, no?
11:15:16  <Samu> it depends
11:16:11  <Samu> they're placed on water, but then it's no longer a water tile
11:17:02  <Samu> when it checks for water to place an oil rig, a single buoy can prevent it from spawning
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11:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> well, there are a few corner cases to consider
11:21:10  <Eddi|zuHause> like what happens when the game builds a new industry that happens to get the old ID
11:21:33  <Samu> must investigate this
11:22:40  <Samu> 		if (gfx == GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK) { 			if (!IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) || 					!IsTileFlat(cur_tile)) { 				return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE); 			}
11:23:06  <Samu> ah, it seems that it can build on depots after all
11:23:12  <Samu> but not on buoys
11:23:19  <Samu> buoys are station tile type
11:23:53  * andythenorth wonders if there’s any way to create virtual industry, off the map, run the cb chain, then destroy it
11:24:02  <andythenorth> then just the type is needed, not the instance ID
11:24:28  <andythenorth> fields should behave generically, per the industry type, not per the instance
11:25:38  <andythenorth> hmm, where is the tree stump sprite
11:26:30  <andythenorth> maybe pikka drew that
11:30:20  <andythenorth> better
11:31:58  <Samu> nice
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11:34:56  <Samu> t.t no single ai making good use of rivers
11:35:11  <Samu> some try, but fail miserably :(, they don't know they got to build locks
11:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, better
11:46:40  <andythenorth> ach, needs animated tree cutting + regrowth
11:46:57  <andythenorth> so not minded to do that :P
11:47:22  <andythenorth> also I think it needs 2 tiles for the equipment, one of them featuring logs
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11:52:28  <andythenorth> why did I include forests that are just 3x3?
11:52:33  <andythenorth> they look daft :P
11:52:59  <Eddi|zuHause> because last time you were worried that industries have too large footprint and can't be placed properly
11:56:31  <andythenorth> I think I overshot :P
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11:57:22  <Wolf01> Quak
11:57:49  <frosch123> moi
11:57:57  <andythenorth> moin frosch123
12:11:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: <- that's the current proposal for fields
12:11:52  <frosch123> the old one had some quirks, and when newobjects were added, this new spec was started on top of that
12:21:24  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27827 trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp (2017-03-25 13:21:17 +0100 )
12:21:25  <DorpsGek> -Codechange (r27819): Deduplicate code. (adf88)
12:29:03  <Wolf01> Mmmm must to truck
12:30:42  <Wolf01> I need to discover that truck chassis to make a road train :(
12:32:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: is influence on cargo production needed / wise? o_O
12:34:39  <andythenorth> hmm
12:34:50  <andythenorth> OS X thinks one of FIRS pngs is an app
12:34:56  <andythenorth> maybe it is? o_O
12:35:32  <Samu> FIX PLOZ
12:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like phishing mail trojans...
12:35:38  <Samu> patch provided
12:36:51  <andythenorth> maybe it’s a binary masquerading as a png
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12:46:39  <Wolf01> HA! Got lost again, managed to find the way home, along the trip I found another researchable object and... it unlocked the truck \o/
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13:09:43  <supermop_home> damn I had a dream that andy redrew all my roadtype sprites to make them look better
13:10:26  <andythenorth> I had a dream that newest photoshop isn’t broken
13:13:01  <V453000> ?
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13:13:45  <andythenorth> crashes, all the defaults are wrong, seems to not embed palette for 8bpp save for web
13:13:53  <V453000> nice
13:14:04  <LordAro> hmm. `bool a; int b; a != (b < 0);` vs `bool a; int b; a ? b < 0 : b >= 0;` ?
13:14:44  <frosch123> i usually do the former
13:14:55  <andythenorth> so is there a tree stump in the base set?
13:14:58  <andythenorth> or did I imagine it?
13:15:12  <supermop_home> sure there was in tto
13:15:12  <frosch123> default forest has growth stages
13:15:34  <frosch123> including cut ones
13:16:23  <Samu> damn im bad
13:16:31  <andythenorth> ah maybe it’s in the forest sprites
13:16:50  <Wolf01> o/ Alberth
13:16:56  <frosch123> there are also dead trees
13:17:06  <frosch123> maybe one of them looks like a stump
13:17:28  <andythenorth> I used some of them already :)
13:17:46  <Samu> crap, i posted a patch that fails
13:18:26  <Samu> crap, i'm sorry :(
13:19:07  <Samu> delete this for me, i should have tested it, my bad
13:19:25  <Samu> i don't understand bools yet
13:20:19  <andythenorth> 1 or 0 :)
13:20:26  <andythenorth> 1 xor 0
13:21:00  <peter1138> hi
13:21:15  <andythenorth> peter1138: fields such ^^^^^^^^^
13:22:19  <frosch123> "should be planted at the end of spring only" <- i forgot my last test included ecs wood vector
13:22:27  <peter1138> what
13:22:32  <peter1138> i need to recover
13:23:03  <supermop_home> kept up with the talisker huh?
13:23:15  <peter1138> no just got back from 64 miles
13:23:38  <peter1138> 64 miles, 2500 feet and 16.1mph avg
13:23:42  <supermop_home> hopefully on bike, not foot]
13:23:46  <peter1138> also: headwind
13:23:58  <peter1138> one of those headwinds that seems to follow :S
13:24:42  <andythenorth> nice day though eh?
13:24:48  <peter1138> yeah blue skies!
13:25:17  <Alberth> o/ all
13:26:14  <Alberth> clearly you're biking too fast :)
13:26:22  <frosch123> hmm, no stumps, just small trees
13:26:40  <Samu> !IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) && !IsBuoyTile(cur_tile)
13:26:40  <Alberth> retina screen, close enough :p
13:26:50  <Samu> time to fix it
13:27:15  <LordAro> peter1138: ooh, very nice
13:27:50  <LordAro> frosch123: how about a line like 	return _engine_sort_direction != !(va < vb);
13:28:06  <LordAro> wait, that's silly
13:28:09  <andythenorth> stumps are in the forest sprite, they are in a 3x3 grid
13:28:11  <andythenorth> no use to me :)
13:29:10  <Samu>
13:29:23  <Samu> tested it
13:29:33  <peter1138> that's always useful :p
13:29:35  <Samu> it was not a ||, but a &&
13:29:45  <Samu> sorry about that, :(
13:30:55  <frosch123> LordAro: in C sometimes i have to write "!(a) != !(b)", where the "!" are used to convert integers to bools
13:31:17  <frosch123> i add a comment about that though :p
13:31:17  <Wolf01> Samu, also pay attention to parenthesis when doing boolean operations
13:31:40  <peter1138> I often see "if (!(a == b))" in patches
13:32:18  <Milek7> frosch123: cast to bool?
13:32:32  <frosch123> "if (a) { return true; } else { return false; }" is another classic :)
13:32:39  <frosch123> Milek7: C does not have bools
13:32:42  <frosch123> it only has integers
13:32:47  <Milek7> ah
13:32:52  <Samu> 			if (!IsTileType(cur_tile, MP_WATER) && !IsBuoyTile(cur_tile) || 					!IsTileFlat(cur_tile)) { 				return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE); 			}
13:33:05  <Samu> parentesis are needed?
13:33:14  <frosch123> and various fancy things may use other values than 1 for true
13:33:15  <Wolf01> Depends on the result tou want
13:33:22  <Wolf01> *you
13:33:31  <frosch123> so, comparing "bools" in C is dangerious, since "true == true" may not hold
13:33:51  <Alberth> !(a) != !!(b)    :p
13:34:09  <andythenorth> forests with gaps in - delete that layout?
13:34:12  * andythenorth thinks so
13:34:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: pikka would be sad :p
13:34:29  <andythenorth> he can tell me by DM :P
13:34:35  <Samu> is not water and is not buoy or is not flat
13:34:35  <andythenorth> he’s busy with ideas
13:34:42  <Wolf01> #define true false
13:34:54  <Samu> (is not water and is not buoy) or is not flat
13:35:13  <LordAro> frosch123: this patch is getting to be rather bigger than i expected
13:35:31  <frosch123> clang stuff again?
13:35:50  <LordAro> no, i decided i'd try getting rid of [QG]SortT
13:36:02  <Alberth> Samu: (not water and not buoy) or not flat     vs     not water and (not buoy or not flat)   ?
13:36:03  <LordAro> for some reason
13:36:36  <Samu> i want it to do "(is not water and is not buoy) or is not flat"
13:36:46  <Samu> does it require parentesis?
13:36:47  <frosch123> LordAro: would you like to learn about docker?
13:36:54  <peter1138> always use parenthesis if you mix && and ||
13:37:08  <Alberth> Samu: for the compiler no, for human beings yes
13:37:10  <peter1138> or, as we call them, brackets
13:37:12  <Samu> bah, i didn't use, because... it was working
13:37:14  <Wolf01> Samu, no, it doesn't, but for better uderstandability
13:37:38  <Wolf01> Samu, it's like "a * b + c"
13:37:51  <LordAro> frosch123: i have some knowledge of what docker is, never used it myself though. why?
13:38:16  <frosch123> so you can finish TrueBrain starts of a compile farm with compilers which are not older than 10 years
13:38:40  <LordAro> ah, lol
13:38:55  <LordAro> i can think of worse things to do
13:39:17  <LordAro> you'd have to wait a few months before i actually graduate and have "some" spare time
13:39:26  <frosch123> unless we get a new compile farm, all attempts to move to c++11/14/17 are meaningless
13:39:49  <frosch123> LordAro: sad, you do not have free time after graduation
13:39:55  <LordAro> heh
13:40:15  <frosch123> i started on ottd during my graduation, because it was too boring to do graduation stuff all day
13:40:38  <LordAro> hehe
13:41:38  <andythenorth> he’s right
13:42:07  <andythenorth> I spent most of my degree learning fun things, nothing to do with the degree
13:42:14  <LordAro> oh for sure
13:42:14  <andythenorth> then….work
13:42:24  <andythenorth> eh 4 forests
13:42:26  <andythenorth> probably do?
13:42:41  <LordAro> this is what i spend far too much of my time managing these days
13:43:47  <Samu> - just added parenetsis
13:43:49  <peter1138> all i see is BAPS
13:44:05  <LordAro> yup
13:44:15  <LordAro> program that long predates me :)
13:44:33  <Milek7> some people write code like "if (2 == something)", it drives me crazy
13:45:04  <peter1138> me too
13:45:09  <peter1138> and i am aware of the good reason for it
13:45:25  <LordAro> peter1138: "i don't turn on my compiler warning flags" ?
13:45:33  <peter1138> :D
13:47:14  <Wolf01> <Milek7> some people write code like "if (2 == something)", it drives me crazy <- that's to avoid to do "if (something = 2)"
13:47:29  <frosch123> andythenorth: looks nice :)
13:47:43  <Wolf01> The result of that condition is "yes"
13:48:56  * andythenorth doing the snow now
13:49:11  <andythenorth> urgh
13:49:14  <andythenorth> snow under trees?
13:49:33  <peter1138> no
13:49:41  <peter1138> they are quite dense
13:49:53  <peter1138> like me
13:50:01  <peter1138> mind you it could drift there
13:50:33  <frosch123> Milek7: there are secure coding guidelines like CERT. they have a particular section about "portability", which is essentially a collection of compiler bugs from compilers of the past 40 years
13:50:39  <andythenorth>
13:51:19  <Samu> speaking of code
13:51:24  <Samu> HELP
13:51:31  <supermop_home> needs at least some snow on the dirt
13:51:32  <Samu> how do i avoid repetition
13:51:51  <Samu> MakeRiver and CircularTileSearch is being repeated
13:51:53  <Alberth> andythenorth: looks nice, south trees are best for cutting obviously :p
13:52:41  <andythenorth> supermop: I can’t find a partial-snow dirt tile
13:52:45  <andythenorth> and I cba to draw one
13:52:56  <frosch123> if you want to make it realistic, add big piles of small branches
13:53:06  <Samu> I want to collect all the tiles that need to do MakeRiver + CircularTileSearch
13:53:17  <Samu> then send them all into a for loop
13:53:56  <frosch123> (that's a trap comment, noone would want to make it realisitic)
13:54:28  <Alberth> cutting a few trees once every 50 years :p
13:54:55  <andythenorth> pretty good eh? o_O
13:55:14  * andythenorth might have the wrong sprite number
13:55:31  <frosch123> reverse forest?
13:55:51  <frosch123> deliver wood, plant trees in the desert, desert kills trees, repeat?
13:56:29  <Alberth> I thought lumber mills killed trees
13:57:08  <andythenorth> ‘failing plantation’
14:04:14  <Samu> isn't it possible to avoid repetition?
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14:08:25  <andythenorth>
14:08:28  <andythenorth> tropic eh
14:08:31  <andythenorth> “it will do"
14:08:51  <peter1138> yeah i mean who'll even see it
14:09:25  <andythenorth> if a tree falls in a FIRS forest....
14:09:28  <andythenorth> ?
14:10:12  <peter1138> industries have sound effects right?
14:10:32  <Samu> yes
14:10:38  <Wolf01> Eddi, wtf are you on steam?
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14:11:50  <argoneus> good afternoon train friends
14:12:15  <Wolf01> Oh, you got the time right :D
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14:13:48  <andythenorth> peter1138: I never got as far as sound effects :P
14:15:09  <andythenorth> is the tropic forest too uniform?
14:15:20  <andythenorth> I could piss around making it more varied
14:16:47  <Wolf01> I figured out the most worrying image
14:21:21  <andythenorth> o_O
14:22:02  <Wolf01> Big cat pissing around the forest to make yellow trees variant
14:26:32  <Samu> who's the pathfinder expert? was it Alberth
14:26:41  <Samu> or alberth is gui expert
14:26:49  <Alberth> tropic doesn't strike me as a good idea for planting forests :p
14:27:14  <Samu> there are no forests on that tileset
14:27:21  <andythenorth> it is what it is :P
14:27:30  <Alberth> :D
14:27:32  <Samu> forest industries
14:29:09  <Samu> need help on sending ships to the closest (but reachable) ship depot, peter1138 did you do something about it? i'd like to solve this
14:29:21  <Alberth> samu isn't trying to change a found path too late in the process? I'd expect you want to influence how it finds a path
14:30:23  <supermop_home> a lot of lumber - legal and otherwise - comes from tropic areas
14:31:23  <supermop_home> if you want a more morally acceptable alternative, a bamboo plantation in tropic would be equivalent
14:32:13  <supermop_home> drawing a bamboo stalk as a tree would be a pain though
14:32:35  <Samu> oh, about the rivers patch, well, i like it how it is right now, it's not perfect though, but at least it's something acceptable in my eyes
14:33:08  <Samu> the coding is probably crap
14:33:18  <Samu> could be improved, but meh... it works
14:35:10  <Samu> my current issues with water that I'm still trying to deal with is... sending ships to the closest ship depot, probably locks under bridges, especially town bridges
14:35:36  <supermop_home> Samu, have you looked at the rainfall river generator patch?
14:35:49  <Samu> nope, which one is that
14:36:21  <supermop_home> it a hydrological model based terrain/river generator
14:36:52  <supermop_home> it seeks to make the hills and valleys based on the flow of water rather than the other way around
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14:37:46  <supermop_home>
14:40:04  <Samu> oh, those look quite realistic
14:40:11  <Samu> are they lock-friendly?
14:40:15  <supermop_home> idk
14:40:53  <supermop_home> tbh that's less important to me than non-stupid looking rivers and valleys
14:42:10  <supermop_home> bowl shaped craters and depressions with no exit are fairly rare, but seem to comprise the majority of valleys in openttd
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14:42:49  <Samu> i rather have locks connect
14:43:00  <Samu> but both would be ideal
14:43:10  <supermop_home> beyond annoying me from a geological perspective, it makes building rail, river or road transit that follows valleys a pain
14:43:41  <supermop_home> Samu if the downstream areas are wide, its is plenty easy to build locks
14:44:06  <supermop_home> rather I see no need to enforce easy lock placement in high alpine streams near the source
14:44:53  <Alberth> but those skiing tourists!
14:44:59  <Samu> i downloaded, this thing is made of 50 patches? ugh, how do i patch them
14:45:11  <Samu> i thought there would be 1 file
14:45:39  <supermop_home> even at St. Louis, the historic center of barge shipping on the Mississippi, they had to build a length of canal to get around the rapids
14:46:23  <supermop_home> (that's what made St. louis important, besides the confluence - before the canal, all goods had to be transshipped there)
14:47:00  <Alberth> likely it got that position as they were the first to make a canal :)
14:47:29  <supermop_home>,_Gabaret,_and_Mosenthein_Islands.jpg
14:47:46  <supermop_home> see canal and lock just 'below' the river
14:48:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: +1 to making forest not as rectangular as plantations
14:48:58  <andythenorth> hmm, I made them more rectangular earlier :)
14:49:05  <frosch123> :p
14:49:16  <andythenorth> in this one
14:50:03  <frosch123> i guess V would put the whole forest on a belt: trees are planted in the front, grow along the moving belt, and are cut at the end
14:50:18  <andythenorth> that is a good idea
14:50:20  <andythenorth> moving forest
14:50:21  <Wolf01> Put the camp in the middle and a muddy path towards one side?
14:50:42  <andythenorth> Wolf01: it probably would look better with a path through it
14:50:58  <Alberth> supermop_home: ah, right, I see it now
14:51:41  <Samu> screw this, i don't know how to patch
14:51:45  <Alberth> that needs nrt, so you can drive a tram through the woods :)
14:51:50  <Samu> why didn't he make 1 single patch file
14:52:22  <Alberth> because there are a lot of small steps involved in making something as big as that
14:52:52  <Alberth> you saw how many commits I made from your aircraft display patch?
14:52:59  <supermop_home> before that was built in the 40s, shipping was either transfered at st. louis, or had to wait for a lot of rain to raise the water level over the rocks
14:53:09  <Samu> yes, i dunno why it has to be done like that
14:53:27  <Alberth> one elementary change in one commit
14:53:46  <Alberth> makes it simpler to find an error if one is made
14:54:37  <Alberth> likely the rainfall patch was made with mercurial MQ, a system to manage a stack of patches
14:54:44  <supermop_home> Samu you'd never get something huge that changes rivers, mountains, and town placement, and adds many more settings into trunk
14:55:21  <supermop_home> probably each change would have to be reviewed and added on its own
14:55:29  <Alberth> it would
14:56:21  <Samu> for me it makes it more complex
14:56:21  <Alberth> throwing it all on one big heap makes that nobody is going to understand how it changed the code
14:56:58  <supermop_home> Samumore than one person has to read and understand it
14:57:36  <supermop_home> if it is in small bits, it is easier for a stranger to check that each piece does not cause a problem
14:58:59  <Samu> i dont know which order i have to apply them
14:59:19  <Samu> i dont even know if they can be patched in a given order
14:59:42  <Samu> some features don't make sense alone, so i just end up doing both
14:59:47  <Samu> in 1
15:02:27  <Samu> those screenshots look awesome
15:02:35  <Samu> but i notice they're not lock-friendly
15:03:07  <supermop_home> how do you mean?
15:03:31  <Samu> double inclined slopes for example
15:03:40  <Samu> river spawning in that
15:04:38  <Alberth> the 'series' file gives the order
15:04:56  <supermop_home> not every river, or every part of a given river, is easy to engineer for navigation
15:07:16  <andythenorth> should be for gameplay though
15:07:33  <supermop_home> i'm not sure about that
15:07:51  <supermop_home> i agree that some rivers should, and that downstream areas should
15:07:57  <supermop_home> in most cases
15:08:42  <supermop_home> but players sending panamax ships to mountain tops without placing a single tile of canal seems a little dumb to me
15:11:16  <supermop_home> I think their is value in a map having a mix of 1) navigable rivers 2)rivers that are easy to make navigable, & 3) rivers probably not worth making navigable
15:12:16  <supermop_home> but if you already have code for making rivers more lock friendly Samu, you should try to integrate it with RRG if you want
15:12:42  <Samu> i'd have to understand his code
15:12:52  <Samu> don't even know how to patch
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15:13:28  <nekomaster> I dunno how to patch stuff in Windows
15:13:49  <Samu> i use tortoise svn, right click - apply patch, select trunk folder
15:14:25  <supermop_home> not saying you have to use it, just you've been talking about river code, and making them more 'flowy' fore lack of better word, so i thought that fork might be helpful to you
15:15:22  <Samu> when i have multiple patches selected, tortoisesvn doesn't list Apply Patch...
15:16:56  <Samu> oh well, i kinda like what i've done though, it's not realistic at all though
15:17:59  <Samu> for gameplay intentions, it's wide
15:18:10  <nekomaster> Hmm
15:18:20  <Samu> might allow 90 degree at times
15:18:23  <supermop_home> you might want to look at having your rivers carve the land a bit though
15:18:23  <Samu> not always
15:18:42  <supermop_home> so they don't get stuck by landscape at times
15:19:07  <Samu> that's something I don't know how
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15:19:12  <nekomaster> Hmm
15:19:20  <supermop_home> rrg does it though
15:19:35  <nekomaster> I'm thinking of maybe trying to make a North American road vehicle set, but I dunno how I should go about things
15:20:22  <supermop_home> nekomaster: find a gpl rv set and steal its code
15:20:34  <Samu> there is no terraforming involved at all :(
15:20:38  <nekomaster> I know, but the other part is how I should go about doing things with vehicles
15:20:55  <supermop_home> build them in depot and give them orders?
15:21:12  <nekomaster> I mean what to include and what not
15:21:28  <Samu> pathfinder finds a route, and contours the terrain to reach the destination, never terraforms
15:22:05  <Samu> once found, it starts building the river. It plans it in 1-tile-wide
15:22:20  <Samu> i enlarged it to become 3-tile-wides while constructing it
15:22:51  <supermop_home> nekomaster: being too comprehensive if probably boring
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15:23:15  <nekomaster> I don't want to add every single truck from North America
15:24:03  <nekomaster> I'm thinking of going a Semi-Generic route where capacities and specs will benifit gameplay but designs of vehicles will be based on real life american vehicles
15:24:06  <nekomaster> or stuff used in America
15:25:07  <Samu> dont know how the river is generated in rainfall river gen, does it take an image and then convert it into a heightmap with extra water tiles?
15:28:51  <nekomaster> Though if I go with a Semi-Generic route then I'll also have to make up fictional names/companies and set up generations of vehicles
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15:32:15  <andythenorth> nekomaster: did you get a compile working?
15:32:24  <nekomaster> Nope, still the same error as before
15:32:31  <Samu> guess not
15:32:37  <Samu> it really is computer generated
15:32:46  <nekomaster> As I said before I'm on Windows 10 using Subsystem for Linux way of compiling NML
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15:33:52  <andythenorth> there must be a way to install python packages on windows
15:33:57  <andythenorth> it can’t be that cripplied
15:34:19  <Alberth> ha :p
15:34:21  <nekomaster> Well Subsystem for linux basically downloads a copy of ubuntu
15:34:32  <nekomaster> and provides terminal/bash from Ubuntu
15:34:50  <Alberth> so it has apt-get?
15:34:53  <nekomaster> Yes
15:34:57  <Alberth> spiffy
15:34:58  <nekomaster> thats how I had to install python and gcc
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15:35:11  <nekomaster>
15:35:19  <nekomaster> Thats what I'm working with
15:35:53  <Alberth> nice
15:36:09  <Alberth> so what's failing, still cpp?
15:36:37  <andythenorth> needs the python deps
15:36:39  <andythenorth> chameleon
15:36:45  <andythenorth> maybe docutils
15:36:51  <andythenorth> optionally, graphviz
15:36:56  <Alberth> firs-ish stuff
15:37:05  <nekomaster> it says I have chameleon but then says it can't find the module chameleon
15:37:18  <Alberth> there are several chameleons :p
15:37:30  <nekomaster>
15:38:22  <Alberth> yeah, something like that :p
15:38:51  <nekomaster> Mind you, anything that works in terminal for linux should work with what i have
15:39:08  <nekomaster> Or I should say, anything that works in Ubuntu's Terminal/bash shell
15:40:15  <Alberth> I know
15:40:48  <Alberth> I am just not that good with package stuff in debian/ubuntu, so it's a puzzle what to use
15:41:19  <nekomaster> I would set things up for Windows again with stuff like mingw, but that was a lot of work getting that all set up last time
15:41:38  <nekomaster> why can't things be easy
15:43:50  <Alberth> mingw is a mess too, more than bash shell, imho
15:44:03  <Alberth> it is easy, you just need to know how it works
15:44:30  <nekomaster> I'm just not use to dealing with complicated things
15:44:48  <nekomaster> maybe its my ADHD or something else but sometimes complex things just go over my head
15:45:06  <nekomaster> thats why for the longest time I avoided even trying to learn NML because I couldn't understand anything
15:48:18  <Alberth>    this says to list the package you have with    dpkg-query -l '*chameleon*'
15:49:15  <Alberth> andythenorth: what python does it need?
15:49:51  <nekomaster> i have no idea whats going on here
15:49:52  <nekomaster>
15:49:53  <Alberth>  there is this, but it's python2
15:50:27  <Alberth> indeed, that's the other chameleon
15:51:06  <nekomaster> my brain is overheating trying to understand that
15:52:35  <Alberth> there are 2 packages with "chameleon" in the name, and they're not related at all, other than both being a template expand engine :)
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15:53:13  <Alberth> I guess the simple test would be to install the other chameleon too, and see what happens
15:53:18  <nekomaster> I dunno how
15:53:28  <nekomaster> my brain hurts
15:53:49  <Alberth> only problem is that firs may use python3, and that other chameleon is for python2, so it may fail
15:54:04  <nekomaster> Yeah, andy said I need Python 3 which I do have
15:54:17  <nekomaster> Python 3.4.3
15:54:28  <Alberth> ah, ok, no point in installing the python2 package thus, ok
15:54:49  <Alberth> do you know the name of the ubuntu version?  trusty, or xenial, or ?
15:56:06  <nekomaster> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS
15:56:15  <nekomaster> so Trusty
15:57:02  <Alberth> great
15:57:26  <nekomaster> is that a good great or a sarcastic great?
15:59:19  <andythenorth> Alberth: needs 3.4 or 3.5 or so
16:00:45  <Alberth> good great, it narrows the search
16:00:57  <andythenorth> whatever happened to “virtualenv -p=python3”, the “pip install [module]”
16:01:03  <andythenorth> is that not a thing on windows?
16:01:26  <Alberth> nekomaster is basically on ubuntu (ie linux)
16:01:43  <Alberth> but with a 'stable' distribution
16:02:03  <Alberth> there is no python3 pyramid chameleon for trusty, it seems
16:02:25  <Alberth> so you must install from source, I guess
16:03:57  <nekomaster> i wouldn't know how to do that
16:04:48  <Alberth> pypi has the sourcecode, now to find the install command :)
16:06:26  <Alberth> likely something along the lines of installing ply
16:06:54  <nekomaster> i already have ply
16:06:57  <nekomaster> as far as I know
16:07:05  <nekomaster> did I mention my head hurts?
16:07:30  <nekomaster> I litterally mean that, I dont understand anything here
16:07:50  <Alberth> the procedure is mostly the same, I mean
16:08:16  <Alberth>   that's the source code package, download the .tar.gz
16:08:30  <nekomaster> I dunno where to put it
16:09:02  <Alberth> we need to unpack and install it, so some temporary directory is fine
16:09:31  <Alberth> in your home directory, for example
16:09:47  <nekomaster> I just put it in C:\Tempo
16:09:56  <nekomaster> where I put the source for NML and Ply as well
16:10:02  <Alberth> ok
16:10:09  <Alberth> you can run linux commands there?
16:10:27  <nekomaster> already have commandline open and i'm in bash
16:10:43  <nekomaster> cd /c/tempo/chameleon
16:10:51  <Alberth> in that directory, enter    tar xzf pyramid_chameleon-0.3.tar.gz
16:11:02  <nekomaster> its already unpacked
16:11:09  <Alberth> magic :)
16:11:12  <nekomaster> chameleon is the directory I unpacked it to
16:11:19  <nekomaster> 7zip is my friend
16:11:36  <Alberth> there is a file there?
16:11:55  <nekomaster> yes
16:13:25  <Alberth> python3.4 setup,py install
16:14:11  <nekomaster> its doing things now
16:14:26  <Alberth> hopefully the right things :p
16:14:30  <nekomaster> hopefully
16:14:54  <Alberth> it's a pity there is no ubuntu package for it, would have been cleaner and simpler
16:15:06  <nekomaster> yeah
16:15:22  <nekomaster> and road hog still errors
16:15:29  <Alberth> different error?
16:15:32  <nekomaster> ImportError : no module named 'markdown"
16:15:39  <Alberth> ah, progress :p
16:15:46  <nekomaster> I suppose
16:15:57  <Alberth> let me see what I have installed here
16:16:19  <nekomaster> hopefully I don't have to download every library for ubuntu just to compile road hog
16:17:09  <Alberth> every library is a few thousand packages :p
16:18:11  <andythenorth> oh it was markdown not docutils :)
16:18:12  <andythenorth> sorry
16:18:24  <nekomaster> lol
16:18:29  <andythenorth> I work on multiple projects, some use one, some use the other
16:19:21  <nekomaster> though the thing is, roadhog also looks very complicated
16:19:41  <Alberth>   at least a markdown package seems to exist, I have 2 packages installed, so 50% chance :p
16:20:25  <Alberth> sudo apt-get install python3-markdown     should do the trick, I think
16:20:38  <andythenorth> nekomaster: Road Hog is complicated because you have to draw the graphics precisely
16:20:51  <andythenorth> on the other hand, it automates all the cargos /\o/\
16:21:09  <nekomaster> the code for everything looks complicated
16:21:32  <Alberth> iron horse isn't exactly consistent with cargo graphics, slag gets different colours in different wagons :p
16:21:51  <andythenorth> Alberth: yeah, that needs fixed :)
16:21:55  <andythenorth> "Iron Horse 2"
16:22:32  <nekomaster> when things get too much for me like right now, I just feel like going back to bed
16:22:33  <Alberth> steel random graphics are great, keep those :)
16:22:35  <andythenorth> nekomaster: this is more complicated than all of the nml for a vehicle? o_O
16:22:53  <nekomaster> I'm use to things being like how I did with 2cc Trains or NARS Addon
16:23:58  <nekomaster> in the mean time, I can see a road-hog.tar now
16:23:59  <nekomaster> :)
16:24:04  <andythenorth> ach, trees need really compressed together on a steep slope
16:24:11  <andythenorth> nekomaster: anything in ‘docs’?
16:24:28  <nekomaster> what?
16:25:13  <andythenorth> when you run make, the docs folder should be automatically built
16:25:22  <nekomaster> yeah, thats there
16:25:25  <nekomaster> and so is the grf and tar now
16:25:30  <nekomaster> make ran fine this time
16:25:41  <andythenorth> graphics are all in src/graphics
16:25:56  <andythenorth> as long as you don’t want to change *anything* about how RH works, it’s easy :)
16:25:56  <Alberth> \o/
16:25:57  <nekomaster> I saw that, but I'm still confused by how everything is set up
16:26:16  <andythenorth> there is a python source file for each vehicle
16:26:20  <andythenorth> in src/vehicles
16:26:55  <nekomaster> Well for an American Road vehicle set, I'd like to at some point have Horses, Steam wagons/trucks, Early Buses/Trucks, Rigid trucks, Tractor-Trailer 18wheelers, and Doubles
16:27:29  <andythenorth> they’re all possible, except horses
16:27:35  <andythenorth> horses would need animation, which isn’t provided
16:27:46  <andythenorth> let’s make a ‘neko’ truck
16:27:49  <nekomaster> thats fine for now
16:27:57  <andythenorth> go to src/vehicles
16:28:11  <nekomaster> im there now
16:28:20  <nekomaster> (btw I still have bash open jsut incase)
16:28:28  <andythenorth> copy ‘’ and rename the copy to ‘'
16:28:54  <nekomaster> ok done, then what, open it in Notepad++?
16:28:57  <andythenorth> yup
16:29:06  <andythenorth> you’ll also need to open the docs in a browser
16:29:14  <andythenorth> explorer should do it
16:29:28  <nekomaster> Yeah, thats all i have for a file explorer
16:29:31  <andythenorth> (open index.html)
16:29:39  <andythenorth> I mean IE ;)
16:29:48  <nekomaster> I have chrome
16:29:48  <andythenorth> or chrome or firefox
16:29:54  <nekomaster> screw Edge
16:30:17  <andythenorth> anyway open index.html, then go to ‘code reference’ and scroll to the end
16:30:48  <andythenorth> you need to find the last used ID
16:31:28  <nekomaster> I'm on the code reference page and the last id is the Nutbrook ID 960
16:31:42  <andythenorth> ok so we’ll use 970 for ‘neko'
16:31:45  <andythenorth> they go up in 10s
16:31:49  <nekomaster> ok
16:31:52  <andythenorth> so go to in notepad
16:31:52  <nekomaster> simple enough
16:32:03  <nekomaster> is still open in notepad++
16:32:10  <andythenorth> change the numeric ID to 970
16:32:19  <nekomaster> Base numeric id?
16:32:22  <andythenorth> yup
16:32:28  <andythenorth> change the id to ‘neko’ (lower case)
16:32:37  <andythenorth> change the title to ‘Neko'
16:32:38  <nekomaster> done and done
16:32:48  <nekomaster> Neko [Open Truck]?
16:32:58  <andythenorth> yup
16:33:01  <nekomaster> ok
16:33:06  <andythenorth> then go to src/rosters/
16:33:19  <nekomaster> brb
16:34:50  <nekomaster> ok, im back, and I have the brit roster open in notepad now
16:35:01  <nekomaster> nice that notepad++ has a tab feature
16:35:52  <andythenorth> find ‘merrivale’
16:35:54  <dlite> I have both iron and coal mine next to station, however, all of my engineering supplies seem to go only to the coal mine. is there any nice way of making something else happen aside of making a second station which only covers the iron mine and split the incoming trains evenly between stations?
16:36:04  <andythenorth> and add neko on a line after it, with a ,
16:36:09  <andythenorth> all lower case
16:36:28  <nekomaster> ok, thats done and done
16:36:38  <nekomaster> merrivale, neko, nettlebridge
16:36:52  <andythenorth> ok, scroll down, around line 110 or so, there’s the buy menu list
16:36:57  <andythenorth> you need to add neko there as
16:36:59  <andythenorth> well *
16:37:08  <andythenorth> you can choose where it goes in the order
16:37:20  <nekomaster> ahh
16:37:27  <nekomaster> because line 110 is glenmore,
16:38:17  <andythenorth> I was guessing, my code is a bit different, because I have changes not in the main repo
16:38:25  <nekomaster> ahh
16:38:31  <andythenorth> anyway, same thing, add it lower case, with a ,
16:38:45  <andythenorth> then one more step
16:38:58  <nekomaster> well I decided to go down to merrivale in the list there and then add "neko,"
16:39:01  <andythenorth> ok
16:39:04  <nekomaster> but thats done
16:39:06  <andythenorth> now src/graphics/vehicles
16:39:17  <nekomaster> ok, im there
16:39:19  <andythenorth> find yeoman_template.png, copy it, rename copy to neko_template.png
16:39:30  <andythenorth> then check all files are saved, try make
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16:42:30  <nekomaster> ok i hit make now
16:42:54  <nekomaster> I wonder though, can road hog do small early trucks/buses, and long 18-wheeler trucks?
16:43:31  <andythenorth> yes
16:43:59  <nekomaster> Because gotta consider that American stuff tends to be bigger then british stuff
16:44:07  <nekomaster> partially because of the long nose trucks
16:44:20  <andythenorth> look in the docs - ‘road vehicles’ page
16:44:48  <andythenorth> max length of any single unit is 8/8
16:44:51  <nekomaster> Ahh
16:45:13  <nekomaster> I think 8/8 would only be needed for long 3 axle trailers
16:45:18  <andythenorth> min length is probably 3/8 or so
16:45:30  <andythenorth> I can’t remember what lengths I made the offsets for
16:45:57  <nekomaster> well I imagine that if I stay in the same places as the templates things should be fine
16:47:09  <andythenorth> ha ha
16:47:15  <andythenorth> I made a truck with 4 trailers :P
16:47:19  <nekomaster> WTF
16:47:26  <nekomaster> that would belong in the outback
16:47:30  <nekomaster> not in North america
16:47:30  <andythenorth> go back to
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16:47:35  <nekomaster> ok
16:47:39  <dlite> andythenorth: I can't seem to figure out, keywords to search help from wiki?
16:47:41  <nekomaster> just have to open notepad++
16:47:45  <andythenorth> around line 18
16:47:56  <andythenorth> add a , to ‘cargo_length = 4'
16:48:07  <nekomaster> add a what?
16:48:14  <andythenorth> I’ll paste
16:48:40  <andythenorth> nekomaster:
16:48:53  <andythenorth> replace lines 16-19 with that
16:48:58  <nekomaster> oh i see
16:50:18  <nekomaster> ok so now bash -c "make -b -r -R"
16:50:19  <nekomaster> :)
16:50:42  <nekomaster> I love that I can call linux commands with 'bash -c "commandhere" '
16:52:02  <nekomaster> I added flashing pixles to the Neko_template and I found it quickly ingame
16:52:05  <nekomaster> now to build it
16:53:02  <LordAro> frosch123: relevant from yesterday
16:53:07  <nekomaster> and I have a 4 trailer neko truck
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16:54:58  <Alberth> hmm, 30 lines error message for an unknown variable :p
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16:55:06  <nekomaster> Lol, the Neko truck with 4 trailers takes so long to speed up with 100 tons of coal
16:55:14  *** Snail has joined #openttd
16:55:15  <nekomaster> even with a 450 HP engine
16:55:27  <Alberth> decrease freight multiplier :)
16:55:42  <nekomaster> that only applies to rail vehicles
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16:55:55  <nekomaster> I'm not seeing a weight multipler like x2 on my trucks
16:56:11  <Alberth> it's in the settings
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16:56:29  <nekomaster> what settings? openttd settings or road hog parameters?
16:56:36  <Alberth> openttd settings
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16:56:56  <nekomaster> Yeah, it says Weight multiplier for frieght to simulate HEAVY TRAINS
16:56:57  <Alberth> or do freight multiplier settings only apply to trains? I hope not
16:57:02  <nekomaster> trains only
16:57:15  <peter1138> there's a separate setting for trucks
16:57:15  <Alberth> :o  sorry for the noise
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16:57:19  <nekomaster> its ok
16:57:28  *** Snail has quit IRC
16:57:35  <peter1138> or at least i thought there was :p
16:57:38  <nekomaster> but no, the trucks have a 100 ton capacity thanks to andy's shinadigans
16:57:48  <peter1138> ah no, i was thinking of the slope
16:57:54  *** Snail has joined #openttd
16:58:39  <nekomaster> I wonder how I should procced from here, because I'd rather work with a clean slate rather then say, adding stuff to road hog at the moment
16:58:44  *** Snail has joined #openttd
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16:59:29  <nekomaster> PLus another issue is that if I make a Semi-Generic American Road Vehicle set, now i have to make graphics... blargh
16:59:35  <nekomaster> i hate doing sprites
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17:00:51  <Wolf01> is cat?
17:01:03  *** Snail has joined #openttd
17:01:05  <nekomaster> nope, its your imagination
17:01:08  <nekomaster> there is no cat there
17:01:13  <nekomaster> just lots of fuz
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17:02:39  <nekomaster> hmm
17:02:43  *** Snail has joined #openttd
17:07:43  <andythenorth> nekomaster: to start again, you’d need a new roster
17:08:10  <andythenorth> you don’t have to use Road Hog, I just wanted to show you the option :)
17:08:30  <nekomaster> well if roadhog can easily deal with all kinds of sizes, it might be nice
17:08:43  <andythenorth> dlite: you have to make a second station
17:08:53  <andythenorth> it’s one of the annoying things about supplies
17:11:47  <nekomaster> Hmm, I wonder when the Semi-Trailer generations should start, techincally Mack started selling Articulated trucks in the 30's and 40s, but 18-wheeler culture didn't start until the 70's
17:12:10  <nekomaster> having Semi-trailers start in the 70's could keep them from overlapping with the Rigid trucks as well
17:12:39  <Samu> what does it mean Identifier not found... damn it
17:13:00  <Samu> Severity	Code	Description	Project	File	Line	Suppression State Error	C3861	'GetAvailShipTracks': identifier not found	openttd	D:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ship_cmd.cpp	155
17:13:15  <andythenorth> nekomaster: all articulated, all the way...
17:13:41  <nekomaster> andythenorth: Remember, not all trucks in North America are 18-wheelers
17:14:01  <nekomaster> most of the trucks I see in the city are things like 5-ton trucks/rigid trucks
17:14:16  <nekomaster> Its only on the major roads that I see the majority of 18-wheelers passing through oshawa
17:14:56  <Alberth> Samu, perhaps GetAvailShipTracks does not exist?
17:15:20  <Samu> Severity	Code	Description	Project	File	Line	Suppression State Error (active)		argument of type "const Ship *" is incompatible with parameter of type "Ship *"	openttd	d:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\ship_cmd.cpp	159
17:16:40  <Alberth> const Ship   and  Ship    are different, the former has an additional promise you won't change the content of Ship
17:17:24  <Alberth> so you cannot use a const Ship    as substitute for a   Ship, since the code using the latter may make a modification
17:18:38  <peter1138> "Dear uploader, your heightmap is broken"
17:18:43  <Samu> i see, it seems i can't use these then
17:18:55  <Samu> i don't want to change ship
17:22:27  <Alberth> either find a pointer that is not const, or change the code of the sub-routine to take a const  Ship  pointer
17:22:44  <Alberth> latter is likely non-trivial
17:23:30  <Alberth> (adding "const" is easy, but making it compile again can be difficult)
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17:25:59  <Samu> i'm not really sure what I want though
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17:26:01  <nekomaster> Another thing that will be difficult with making an American style Road vehicle set is what to add without being too much for me to handle
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17:26:49  <nekomaster> but I really want to add things like Cargo Vans and Delivery Trucks/Cube Vans for town cargo stuff, as well as seperate Mail and Armored Trucks
17:27:13  <nekomaster> on top of the Steam, Early Petrol, Rigid, Semi-Trailer, and Double's Truck's
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17:33:35  <nekomaster> hmm, is andy still around?
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17:35:36  <Alberth> yes
17:36:01  <nekomaster> I wonder if Road hog's code can also handle stuff like Light Rail Transit and metro stuff
17:36:14  <nekomaster> Then again not like theres too much LRT stuff in north america
17:36:32  <Alberth> but he may be busy, if you're in no hurry, just type "andy" and the words you want to say, and wait
17:36:44  <nekomaster> I'm in no hurry
17:37:03  <Alberth> if you need him specifically, and now, then mention his username, and he'll get highlighted
17:37:09  <nekomaster> Yeah, I know
17:37:15  <nekomaster> I've been around on IRC since 2008
17:37:21  <nekomaster> mostly on FurAffinity though
17:37:44  <Alberth> andy tends to leave and join again multiple times during the day :)
17:37:52  <nekomaster> Ahh
17:38:29  <andythenorth> I tend to go away and placate screaming children
17:38:36  <Alberth> so when he's not available, a feasible strategy is to wait until he joins again
17:38:36  <andythenorth> or rescue them from disasters
17:38:37  <nekomaster> you have kids?
17:38:45  <andythenorth> at least 1, not more than 2
17:39:03  <Alberth> excluding firs, roadhog, ironhorse, and squid :p
17:39:04  <nekomaster> andythenorth: Hey Andy, if your there can Roadhog Handle Subways/metro stuff? I've already seen that we can have many trailers added to trucks/trams, but can we have length refits like in HEQS?
17:39:29  <andythenorth> no, I think they’re weird :)
17:39:37  <nekomaster> What?
17:40:05  <andythenorth> refits using cargo subtype are usually a bad idea
17:40:10  <nekomaster> Ahh
17:40:13  <andythenorth> although they’re in unsinkable sam :(
17:40:17  <nekomaster> lol
17:40:20  <andythenorth> and I don’t like it, but eh
17:40:21  <andythenorth> needs must
17:41:10  <nekomaster> I would like to have Metro stuff on tramlines, that way in the future if someone makes an elevated rail hack for RATT's then I'll have something
17:41:20  <nekomaster> plus I always wanted american style blocky subways
17:41:29  <nekomaster> great for local metro stuff
17:41:59  <andythenorth> if you want metro as trams, just use the trams ;)
17:42:48  <andythenorth> should be fine
17:42:57  <nekomaster> I do plan on having american styled Streetcars
17:43:15  <andythenorth> it took a long time to do Road Hog, I’d set a limited goal ;)
17:43:48  <andythenorth> first commit was 2013, and released last year, so ~3 years
17:43:51  <andythenorth> with Dan helping
17:44:05  <nekomaster> Well at the moment I'd at least like to get the Early, Rigid, Semi-Trailers and maybe Doubles going
17:44:12  <andythenorth> I would do buses or trucks
17:44:15  <andythenorth> yes
17:44:24  <nekomaster> oh yes, I keep forgetting about he busses
17:44:35  <andythenorth> buses are quite forgetable
17:44:38  <nekomaster> only thing is though about early stuff is they're so weird
17:44:53  <nekomaster> tiny hoods and curvy blocky bodies
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17:45:05  <nekomaster> like 1910's or 1920's trucks/buses
17:45:10  <andythenorth> PITA to draw
17:45:35  <nekomaster> funny thing is that in the past I was able to do sprites but not code
17:45:40  <nekomaster> but now I loath doing sprites
17:45:54  <andythenorth> the Honister dump truck would give you a basic 6 axle rigid bonnet truck from 1940s-1960s
17:45:57  <andythenorth> looks like a GMC
17:46:45  <andythenorth>
17:47:12  <nekomaster> Yeah, probably more 60's style
17:47:21  <andythenorth> or more like a mack even
17:47:25  <nekomaster> Trucks from the 40's and 50's where more curvy
17:47:31  <andythenorth>
17:47:41  <andythenorth> that’s 1995 ^
17:47:46  <nekomaster> Yeah
17:49:28  <nekomaster> For Cargo Vans, heres an example of what I'd like to add :
17:52:37  <nekomaster> Looks like the current best Mercedes Sprinter (the 3500 Super-high roof) can haul up to 2.5 tons of goods IRL, though I wonder how much I could fudge that number to make it worth while for a light route ingame
17:52:56  <nekomaster> Being a current generation Cargo Van, perhaps 4-8 Tons?
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18:03:04  <andythenorth> I wouldn’t do less than 15
18:03:09  <andythenorth> probably 20t
18:04:07  <andythenorth> there’s a capacity parameter for people who want more realistic
18:04:08  <nekomaster> Heres some stuff I was thinking of doing over time
18:04:08  <nekomaster>
18:04:39  <nekomaster> I'd rather keep cargo vans and delievery trucks as small light duty stuff, perhaps for serving small towns or low output industry
18:05:05  <nekomaster> But for anything more you'll want to go for Rigid or Semi-Trailer trucks
18:05:25  <andythenorth> the trade off I see is this
18:05:32  <andythenorth> 1. small vehicles don’t get used
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18:05:43  <andythenorth> 2. drawing vehicles is boring
18:05:50  <andythenorth> conclusion: don’t draw any that won’t be used
18:06:06  <nekomaster> well for now thats why I just want to focus on the regular trucks
18:06:09  <andythenorth> but I had to learn the hard way :P
18:06:19  <andythenorth> so many deleted sprites :P
18:06:20  <nekomaster> Oh and busses
18:08:12  <nekomaster> I'm the kind of person that likes to add lots of things, even if they wont always be used
18:08:35  <nekomaster> Thats kind of why I made the NARS addon set to add more north american locomotives
18:14:54  <andythenorth> such drawing
18:15:17  <nekomaster> Well thats why for now I'll just be focusing on the more important stuff that players will probably use
18:17:18  <peter1138> 4096x4096, such embigness
18:17:31  <andythenorth> nekomaster: if you draw a sleeper behind the neko truck, you pretty much have a peterbilt or kenworth
18:17:36  <andythenorth> peter1138: how silly
18:17:40  <nekomaster> Heh
18:17:54  <andythenorth> are you testing how improved rivers work on big maps? o_O
18:18:18  <nekomaster> well i guess its "go big or go home"
18:19:43  * andythenorth goes back to yak-shaving forests
18:23:11  <peter1138> "very low" towns is still far too much on this size
18:23:18  <peter1138> maybe due to the amount of water, i dunno
18:23:38  <peter1138> does that scale? i guess not
18:24:36  <andythenorth> doesn’t scale with water
18:24:56  <andythenorth> I sometimes use bigger map and lots of water to get industry density I want
18:26:06  <andythenorth> bloody slopes :P
18:26:27  * andythenorth has a solution for that, it’s just tedious to test
18:26:29  <nekomaster> what are you trying to do?
18:26:37  <nekomaster> slope aware forests?
18:26:47  <andythenorth> slope aware forests with the trees in the right place
18:26:52  <andythenorth> it’s been buggy in FIRS for years
18:26:55  <nekomaster> yeah
18:26:57  <nekomaster> hmm
18:27:09  <andythenorth> it’s just offsets
18:27:37  <nekomaster> Another thing is with a North american vehicle set, I wonder which generations/decades I should go with for each type of vehicle
18:27:38  <peter1138> i like low density
18:27:57  <andythenorth> nekomaster: new generation about 30 years
18:28:05  <andythenorth> I never solved that tbh though
18:28:28  <andythenorth> every grf is either too long to wait, or too many new vehicles in a short time
18:28:55  <nekomaster> I was thinking for Internal combustion engine busses, it would be maybe 1890, 1900, 1915, and 1930
18:29:22  <nekomaster> After which busses start taking on the shapes we know in america today
18:31:06  <nekomaster> But after the "early" generation, I dunno which decade to really start with, be it 1940 or 1950, I was thinking that the First generation of rear engined busses would start with something like the GMC Old looks
18:31:25  <nekomaster> And the last would be something from today
18:33:39  <Alberth> andy, have you ever tried replacing 1 engine every decade or so, so you have a new generation for all train types in 30 or so years?
18:34:29  <peter1138> andythenorth, "maximum coastal distance" in firs, is that actually from the coast, or from the edge of the map?
18:34:42  <andythenorth> probably the coast, but eh
18:34:46  <andythenorth> let me look
18:35:19  <andythenorth> apparently
18:35:38  <nekomaster> Hmm... can Road Hog do Articulated busses?
18:35:49  <andythenorth> hmm is that the right check for FIRS?
18:35:51  * andythenorth looks more
18:36:48  <peter1138> heh
18:38:09  <andythenorth> not sure what that check does
18:38:41  <andythenorth> I didn’t write it
18:38:45  <nekomaster> lol
18:38:51  <andythenorth> I suppose I could read nml docs eh
18:39:20  <peter1138> :D
18:39:31  <andythenorth> "If the industry is built on water, this variable gives the distance of the closest dry land tile, otherwise it gives the distance of the closest water tile."
18:39:51  <andythenorth> so it’s a flip-flop check, depending on current tile type
18:39:56  <andythenorth> I love that crap :|
18:40:19  <nekomaster> You seem to hate a lot of things you've had a hand in making
18:41:15  <peter1138> hmm
18:41:23  <peter1138> stuck on industry generation now ;(
18:42:05  <peter1138> ah there it goes
18:42:16  <andythenorth>
18:42:41  <andythenorth> so yeah, that is a max distance check
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18:42:56  <andythenorth> nekomaster: articulated buses, you just add more units
18:43:09  <andythenorth> consist.add_unit() adds an articulated part
18:43:51  <nekomaster> Because I was thinking perhaps maybe having Single Unit Local Busses and Articulated Local buses, and dropping the regional busses because it seems like most transit companies in North america use the same kind of bus for regional and local routes
18:44:08  <andythenorth> try it with one of the buses, like the glenmore
18:44:20  <andythenorth> oh you’d have to modify the spritesheet actually
18:44:24  <nekomaster> yeah
18:44:35  <andythenorth> if you do add_unit() you have to give it sprites
18:44:55  <andythenorth> if you do ‘repeat = x’ then it will repeat the unit with same sprites
18:45:16  <andythenorth> there are no docs or anything for this though, just the code :P
18:45:51  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27828 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2017-03-25 19:45:40 +0100 )
18:45:52  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
18:45:53  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: croatian: 2 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:54  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: italian: 6 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:55  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: english (us): 15 changes by Supercheese
18:45:56  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...)
18:46:47  <Alberth> and andy, as walking documentation :)
18:47:31  <nekomaster> Also I probably wont be adding double decker buses, except maybe for the last (current day) generation of Coaches
18:47:34  <Alberth> or perhaps more appropriate, as walking oracle :p
18:47:48  <peter1138> hmm, game freezes
18:47:54  <nekomaster> Where I live I've noticed more and more Double Decker GO Buses (regional/intercity bus company)
18:47:56  <peter1138> maybe 4096x4096 firs is not a good idea :p
18:49:28  <andythenorth> what did you do to it? :(
18:50:02  * andythenorth test
18:50:13  <andythenorth> 20k industries is totally ridiculous
18:50:20  <andythenorth> even AI won’t build 20k stations
18:50:46  <andythenorth> and map-gen is so slow
18:51:33  <peter1138> it was a heightmap
18:51:46  <nekomaster> Hmm... I guess if I can't find any "early" american buses, perhaps I have to make some fake american looking ones?
18:51:46  <peter1138> i think what i actually want is a crop of the heightmap
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18:57:28  <peter1138> i guess autorefit only works if the station already has cargo waiting
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19:01:04  <andythenorth> station refit?
19:01:13  <andythenorth> to fixed cargo, or ‘any available’?
19:05:44  <peter1138> Samu, is a buoy a suitable site for an industry?
19:13:28  <Wolf01> 42
19:13:32  <nekomaster> 24
19:14:15  <nekomaster> I wonder how I should go about selecting busses to base designs and generations off of
19:14:35  <nekomaster> I know that for Coach busses, they should start in 1955 with something that looks like a GMC Scenicruiser
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19:17:33  <andythenorth> nekomaster: I would select them by finding existing sprites :P
19:17:33  * andythenorth is lazy
19:17:41  <nekomaster> Lol
19:17:55  <nekomaster> well I want my sprites to match the size and "style" of Road Hog
19:18:13  <nekomaster> Though the Coach busses might end up having to be say, 8/8
19:18:20  <nekomaster> they tend to be rather long
19:18:32  <nekomaster> and usually have tandem axels
19:20:44  <nekomaster> It'd be nice if there where some "Bus" fans around that I could ask about popular/note worthy transit and coach buses
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19:35:36  <Samu> peter1138: are you talking about the bug i reported?
19:36:06  <Wolf01> What else?
19:36:10  <Samu> it's the special water tile check
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19:36:51  <Samu> the oil rig isn't built on them, but it requires checking if the nearby tiles are water
19:37:26  <Samu> buoys, for this case, are water
19:37:48  <Samu> but since the tile type of buoys is not water, it denies oil rig from spawning there
19:38:04  <Wolf01> The problem is that OTTD is very inconsistent in many cases, this is one of them: you can't spawn an oilrig next to a buoy but you can place a buoy next to an oilrig
19:38:34  <Wolf01> I found problems with docks too, where you can remove all the water after building the dock
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19:41:23  <nekomaster> Heres an interesting thing for a North American commuter transit company
19:41:24  <nekomaster>
19:41:27  <Wolf01> I think the building condition should persist even after the building, but it's really tricky in some situations
19:41:40  <nekomaster> its interesting seeing these green GO Transit double deckers zooming along at 60-80 Km\h
19:41:58  <nekomaster> My dad likes the top front view
19:50:14  <nekomaster> Possible Coach bus Generations?
19:50:54  <andythenorth> 15 years is close
19:51:18  <andythenorth> @calc 2015-1945
19:51:18  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 70
19:51:23  <andythenorth> @calc 70./4
19:51:23  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 17.5
19:51:27  <nekomaster> Yeah but Coaches as we know it today didn't really start happening in USA until the 40's with the ACF-Brill
19:52:02  <nekomaster> I basically picked what was a fast and comfy coach style bus
19:52:14  <nekomaster> rather then some "fancy spruced up" Transit bus
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20:09:35  <peter1138> Samu, but I can build an oilrig next to a buoy without the patch?
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20:36:45  <Samu> you need to look at the layout
20:37:04  <Samu> it was in some wiki
20:40:17  <Samu> im trying to find...
20:42:55  <Samu> can't find the wiki...
20:43:14  <Samu> this is the layout for oil ring, xx is where it checks for water
20:43:17  <Samu> rig*
20:43:38  <peter1138> hmmm
20:43:49  <peter1138> but not all the intermediate tiles? odd
20:44:19  <nekomaster> Wheres the link for the Road and Tram Types build?
20:44:24  <Samu> yeah it's a strange layout
20:45:31  <Samu> this layout was in some wiki page, i can't remember where
20:45:35  <Samu> i got it from there
20:45:45  <peter1138> It's in src/table/build_industry.h
20:45:52  <Samu> yes, also there
20:46:01  <peter1138> Canonical.
20:46:05  <Samu> but hard to visualise
20:46:07  <peter1138> Wonder if it should all the tiles...
20:46:21  <peter1138> +check
20:47:36  <peter1138> Also would be funny to have the check when terraforming
20:51:34  <andythenorth> so why is there malware in the FIRS pngs?
20:51:38  <supermop_home> need a cool sort of metabolist image to have printed on my phone case
20:52:02  <andythenorth> my OS must be smoking crack
20:52:12  <supermop_home> I feel like best way to acheive is to create a town set of abstract vector inspired houses
20:52:41  <supermop_home> and then try to get a neat town to grow
20:52:48  <andythenorth>
20:53:26  <supermop_home> andy - if openttd is a gpl'd program
20:53:43  <supermop_home> does any image created by the game become gpl itself?
20:55:04  <supermop_home> also the tower is only really brutalist under construction - at least in it's current state with all the verandas enclosed it just looks generic
20:55:47  <andythenorth> supermop: no absolutely not
20:56:00  <andythenorth> does anything created on linux become GPL?
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20:56:11  <supermop_home> ok lets split some more hairs then:
20:56:33  <supermop_home> can a newgrf have gpl code and non gpl sprites?
20:56:45  <supermop_home> the resulting grf becoming gpl
20:57:04  <supermop_home> does that retroactively require the sprites to become gpl?
20:57:48  <andythenorth> newgrf is compiled
20:57:58  <andythenorth> it’s not quite an executable binary, but it’s a compiled package
20:58:01  <andythenorth> it’s GPL
20:58:03  <supermop_home> or can I as holder of copywrite on sprites grant a specific license to them to be used in a gpl project without releasig the sprites under gpl
20:58:11  <andythenorth> nope
20:58:55  <supermop_home> so it is not just derivative work, but also constituent work?
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21:00:10  <andythenorth> you can release the sprites under other licenses, but you can’t escape GPL if it’s a GPL newgrf
21:00:27  <eekee_> gpl is not intended to (and i believe cannot) restrict the rights of the person who placed them under the gpl
21:01:01  <eekee_> s/them/his work/
21:01:48  <supermop_home> so releasing a later derivative work under gpl would retroactively force all prior contributive works to also take a GPL license?
21:01:54  <eekee_> hell no
21:02:43  <eekee_> i've heard that even the gpl's linking clause may be unenforcable, although that may be different in different US states
21:03:19  <eekee_> in general though, once you've released something, you can't retroactively specify a licence
21:03:41  <supermop_home> in the past I have, and in the future I plan to, created abstracted giclee prints of various metabolist and brutalist architectural inspiration
21:04:35  <supermop_home> none of which have been GPL, - in fact they have been in editions of 10 or 50, and sold when possible
21:05:07  <eekee_> i doubt there's any legal system anywhere on earth which says someone else applying the gpl to your work could restrict yuour rights
21:05:27  <supermop_home> I would like to create similar art, but at the scale and constraints of an openttd spritesheet
21:05:43  <eekee_> and i'm sure i've read richard stallman saying the gpl is not intended to restrict the author's rights
21:06:42  <eekee_> some propaganda might imply it does, but that's just the fsf being overly aggressive
21:06:49  <supermop_home> and use the mechanism of a town newgrf to aggregate such sprites into urban looking groups
21:07:15  <supermop_home> being able to re use town newgrf code would greatly help
21:07:46  <supermop_home> additionally, releasing the resultant grf would be nice
21:07:48  <eekee_> so it's your art, you hold the copyright. you can release it under gpl and under another licence, however you like
21:08:38  <eekee_> there are programs and whole operating systems which you can get under the gpl or a commercial license :)
21:08:47  <supermop_home> but if my goal is to use sprite->newgrf->game->town->screenshot-> print/other artwork
21:09:17  <supermop_home> do I maintain any copywrite control of that final artwork?
21:09:42  <eekee_> ah... screenshots i don't know about :)
21:11:01  <supermop_home> I can write new nml from the specs if I must
21:11:23  <Samu> I'm working on a "FindClosestReachableShipDepot"
21:11:31  <andythenorth> supermop: if you want to control it, don’t use a GPL newgrf
21:11:38  <andythenorth> make a private one
21:11:41  <Samu> i'm failing at the ship pathfinder, there's even 3 pathfinders
21:11:49  <Samu> started with yapf
21:11:54  <eekee_> the worst thing about teh gpl is it scares people like this
21:11:54  <Samu> but i'm stuck
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21:12:00  <supermop_home> can I still release that under a more restrictive license?
21:12:35  <supermop_home> eekee_ I am happy with gpl for 90+% of what I do
21:12:44  <eekee_> supermop_home: me too
21:12:49  <peter1138> What was the concensus on 90 degree pathfinding for ships?
21:13:00  <peter1138> Concensus in ottd, hahah
21:13:02  <nekomaster> I'm ok with GPL so long as people are ok with what I do
21:13:04  <supermop_home> and it is reassuring knowing that work I do will not be useless if I get tired of it and abandon it
21:13:48  <eekee_> peter1138: last i saw, it was merged with the 90 degree train turning option
21:14:20  <frosch123> probably it was like that in ttdp, and someone just did the same
21:14:28  <supermop_home> i am not expecting to monetize any newgrf generative artwork, but for purposes of portfolio inclusion I feel it would be easier if it was clear cut
21:15:02  <andythenorth> peter1138: forbidding 90 degree pathfinding breaks the game
21:15:09  <andythenorth> apparently that’s 'fine'
21:15:11  <andythenorth> but eh
21:15:32  <eekee_> who's going to make a fuss if you've got something which might by some stretch be gpl'd in your portfolio?
21:15:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: why does it?
21:15:43  <andythenorth> possibly we could rename the setting :D
21:15:58  <andythenorth> ships get lost on rivers frequently
21:16:41  <andythenorth> probably I am the only player in the world using ships on rivers :)
21:16:49  <eekee_> no, i do too
21:16:56  <frosch123> with 90 degree forbidden ships cannot reverse on two tile rivers, with 90 degree forbidden ships cannot reverse on one tile rivers
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21:17:18  <eekee_> i use buoys, but often not as many as i expect to need
21:17:22  <frosch123> so it only makes a difference if you build two tile things instead of one or three tile things
21:17:51  <andythenorth> two-tile wide?
21:17:56  <frosch123> yes
21:18:04  <andythenorth> that might explain it
21:18:16  <andythenorth> only way to build docks on rivers is two widen them to 2 tiles
21:18:25  <eekee_> reverse? my experience is ships reverse anywhere they can't actually turn
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21:18:41  <eekee_> but i usually make dock space 3x3 :)
21:18:43  <andythenorth> and the problem mostly occurs leaving docks and turning the wrong direction
21:19:01  <frosch123> same happens for one tile things
21:19:08  <eekee_> buoys :)
21:19:12  <frosch123> it just means that the ship will reverse
21:19:20  <andythenorth> hmm
21:19:23  <frosch123> as in 180 degree reverse
21:19:26  <andythenorth> tropic doesn’t make rivers? o_O
21:19:30  * andythenorth never noticed that
21:19:35  <frosch123> it does
21:19:42  <frosch123> it even removes desert around them
21:19:48  <andythenorth> the code says that
21:19:54  <frosch123> i have seen it
21:19:58  <andythenorth> oh it made 1
21:20:01  <andythenorth> ok
21:20:01  <frosch123> though ofc mhl may have broken it :p
21:20:03  <andythenorth> I found it
21:20:07  <frosch123> mhl may have broken everything
21:20:12  <andythenorth> 512x512 map, 1 river :P
21:20:47  <andythenorth> it’s probably just too flat to locate any springs? o_O
21:22:07  <andythenorth> do I have some local bug? o_O
21:22:19  <nekomaster> hmm
21:22:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: disable variety distribution
21:22:28  <frosch123> set max height to 16
21:22:34  <nekomaster> I wonder if I should add a school bus or two as a bit of a joke transit option
21:22:45  * andythenorth tries
21:22:53  <eekee_> include a short bus :)
21:23:01  <nekomaster> A long bus a mini-bus
21:23:06  <andythenorth> frosch123: surprising difference eh
21:23:11  <andythenorth> try it on height 32
21:23:15  <nekomaster> 12 and 24 passenger capacity, provides increased incomes
21:23:27  <Samu> i like the idea of forbidden 90 degrees for ships, but only as a separate setting from trains
21:23:42  <eekee_> Samu: yeah, separating them is good
21:24:00  <Samu> sometimes i want 90 degrees for trains but not for ships
21:24:13  <Samu> i made a patch about it, posted in the forum the other day
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21:26:24  <Samu> hmm, so i made the pathfinder do a FindPath to I have no idea where... I'm so bad at this
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21:26:59  <Samu> the result however is that it couldn't find a path
21:27:56  <andythenorth> such bedtime
21:28:02  <andythenorth> bye
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21:51:48  <peter1138> Was there ever a daylength patch that didn't screw up the economy?
21:53:48  <Supercheese> doubtful
21:54:03  <Wolf01> I was working on it, lost interest
21:54:17  <Supercheese> although it depends on what's considered a bug and what's considered a feature
21:54:19  <Wolf01> Lost the patch too
21:54:30  <peter1138> Just trying out the one in JGR's pack.
21:56:11  <peter1138> I guess: payment rates will be higher as it takes less days to travel
21:56:41  <peter1138> But also, it takes longer to produce cargo in the first time
21:59:38  <Wolf01> Just see it based on real time: at 1x you produce 100t/month/1-minute, with 4x you produce 400t/month/4-minute -> 100t/minute won't change
22:00:22  <Wolf01> Same happen for cargo payment, running costs...
22:00:26  <Wolf01> All gets scaled
22:01:00  <Wolf01> The only real change is that new vehicles will be introduced 4 times late
22:01:48  <Wolf01> Also vehicle life in real time is 4 times longer
22:02:47  <Wolf01> But for game time is the same, 1x or 4x doesn't matter, ok, you will get rich early (game date) but you have played for the same time (real time)
22:07:09  <peter1138> Not with this patch.
22:07:38  <peter1138> This one basically suspends all but vehicle ticks.
22:07:42  <Wolf01> That's mine wanted-to-be implementation
22:07:54  <nekomaster> Ungh, sometimes I hate trying to research really old vehicles
22:08:02  <peter1138> Hmm
22:08:10  <nekomaster> its like anything before 1920 is wiped off the face of the earth
22:08:39  <Wolf01> Eh, no internet back in those days ;)
22:09:04  <nekomaster> but you can't tell me that no pictures, books, documents, anything on paper didn't exist or survive?
22:09:14  <Wolf01> Maybe noone gave a fuck
22:09:19  <nekomaster> i guess so
22:09:53  <nekomaster> "righty o! lets just toss these schematics and specs into the fire ol chap!"
22:09:53  <nekomaster> -dumb ass bus designer cira 1910
22:11:02  <Wolf01> It was a time where new, better things were developed every odd day, so why keep useless schematics and pictures?
22:11:49  <Wolf01> It's at our day we have nostalgia of those things
22:12:05  <nekomaster> like all I wanted to do was try and find some evidance of any motor buses from 1890 to 1925
22:12:07  <peter1138> Clearly we have too much free time.
22:12:22  <nekomaster> basically what ever came before the Ford Model TT bus in 1917
22:12:25  <nekomaster> in america
22:12:46  <nekomaster> I should mention I'm looking for Motor Buses in America before 1925
22:13:05  <peter1138> Maybe there wasn't any!
22:13:07  <Wolf01> Maybe nothing... they used trams
22:13:17  <nekomaster> but it looks like that it was mostly tram or horse up until stuff like the Model TT Bus came out
22:13:19  <Wolf01> Or horses, or feet
22:13:59  <nekomaster> I guess for my Generic American Road Vehicle Set, I'll just have to make up some fictional ye olde 1900's style bus
22:14:55  <peter1138> Cool swedish bus with skis...
22:15:01  <peter1138> But that's 1920. And not American.
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22:15:48  <Wolf01> did you read this?
22:16:59  <nekomaster> I have not seen that
22:17:18  <nekomaster> and I know that Trams where a bit thing int he late 1800's across the world including USA and Canada
22:17:34  <nekomaster> Even Toronto had some early street car stuff before electrification
22:17:39  <Wolf01> It seem everyone used trams or own cars, cabs and bicycles
22:17:59  <Wolf01> There is no mention of buses in early 1900
22:18:02  <nekomaster> Yeah, I guess the idea of a Motor Bus/Coach wasn't big with Americans at the time
22:18:20  <nekomaster> I believe there are some early steam and petrol busses in the 1890's or 1900's
22:18:23  <nekomaster> but mostly in europe
22:19:10  <Wolf01> "Buses began replacing trolleys in the 1910s. "
22:19:49  <nekomaster> Hmm, yeah, seems like the first mass produced Motor buses where produced in 1910's, the B-type double decker
22:20:19  <nekomaster> but this is America! hell I didn't start seeing double decker buses in Canada until go transit started buying and running double decker coaches from 2008 onwards
22:20:41  *** bwn has joined #openttd
22:24:01  <nekomaster> hmm
22:25:22  <nekomaster> Perhaps I'll just have horses or steam wagons take up that 1900 spot for early buses
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22:43:21  <nekomaster> hmm
22:44:19  <nekomaster> or I could just steal the Daimler/Benz Omnibus
22:44:33  <nekomaster> for a 1900's bus, and I'll slap American flags across it!
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22:49:27  <nekomaster> So heres a rough list of Bus Generations for my Generic American Road Vehicle Set
22:49:28  <nekomaster>
22:53:02  <Wolf01> Nice collection of buses... do you plan to add trucks and trams as well?
22:53:09  <nekomaster> Of course
22:53:35  <nekomaster> I'm just getting stuff in order before I start trying to make some crappy sprites that I really don't want to draw because I'd rather be coding then drawing right now
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22:54:00  <nekomaster> Also I'm using those buses as references for designs, not using the actual buses themselves
22:54:26  <nekomaster> Kinda like how Road Hog's British roster might look like some things you know from the UK
22:54:29  <Wolf01> Use colour filled boxes as placeholders
22:54:58  <nekomaster> I'd rather have a crappily drawn sprite and the dates all set out
22:55:19  <nekomaster> thats another thing too, I'm setting up the generations based on when those buses where built/available
22:55:34  <nekomaster> so not all dates are their build dates, and some are a bit early
22:55:35  <Wolf01> It would be nice to have it compatible with NRT too
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22:55:51  <Wolf01> Trolleybuses and steam trams
22:56:05  <nekomaster> I might not do trolly busses
22:56:26  <nekomaster> they're not a huge thing around the world, I mean only a couple cities in North AMerica use them
22:56:28  <nekomaster> like Vancouver
22:56:48  <nekomaster> And most places seem to keep the same trolly buses for a long time
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23:14:27  <nekomaster> *sigh*
23:14:37  <nekomaster> now i have to find a bunch of trucks...
23:15:02  <nekomaster> and to make things interesting... perhaps a different truck for each kind of truck for each generation
23:15:16  <nekomaster> So the 1950's trucks will all look different
23:15:23  <Wolf01> Good luck
23:15:24  <nekomaster> variety is the spice of life
23:15:37  <nekomaster> I'll just google things like 1950's tanker trucks
23:16:03  <nekomaster> and see what pops up for companies like Kenworth, Ford, Petterbuilt, etc
23:19:49  <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r27829 trunk/src/gfx_func.h (2017-03-26 00:19:41 +0100 )
23:19:50  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r27821): Occasional crash caused by mixing int/uint arithmetic.
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23:33:18  <supermop_home> no good fonts for new resume
23:33:54  <Wolf01> Mi resume "please hire me" in Arial 48, bold
23:33:58  <Wolf01> *my
23:34:14  <Wolf01> I'm really tired this night
23:34:18  <supermop_home> try 72 bold
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23:38:10  <paooolino> Hello all
23:39:17  <paooolino> anyone successfully compiled openttd using MS VS2017?
23:41:05  <Wolf01> Not yet, I'm scared of upgrading my VS2015
23:43:30  <paooolino> lol
23:44:01  <paooolino> i'll try to see if I can install VS2015 then
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23:53:33  <Wolf01> nice
23:56:52  <Wolf01> Bed is calling... must resist
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23:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause> don't forget to switch the time
23:57:39  <Wolf01> Oh, devices do it automagically
23:57:56  <Eddi|zuHause> some do some don't
23:58:27  <Wolf01> Like my alarm clock and car's clock
23:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ... or the local church's clock :p
23:58:53  <Wolf01> But I don't use the alarm clock and car clock is already offset to an unknown time
23:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and the worst part, on monday i have to be at a meeting earlier than usual
23:59:51  <Wolf01> But I won't be the one in charge to change the time on church's clock... we don't even have a church's clock

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