Log for #openttd on 26th March 2017:
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00:00:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and "usual" is also already earlier than i'd like
00:00:19  <Wolf01> Heh
00:00:25  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's now triple early
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00:28:37  <Samu> holy crap, I did it!
00:28:56  <Samu> but only for yapf
00:31:14  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:17:52  <Samu> my extreme copy paste skills allowed me to create a "FindClosestReachableShipDepot" feature for Yapf,
01:17:58  <Samu> lol
01:18:14  <Samu> peter1138: u awake?
01:18:43  <Samu> take a look and tell me how bad it is
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03:53:51  <nekomaster> *yawns*
03:54:04  <nekomaster> I can't believe I actually went and passed out
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04:15:59  <nekomaster> Bonjour
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06:09:55  <nekomaster> hey andy
06:12:20  <andythenorth> lo
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06:40:30  <Alberth> o/
06:41:29  <nekomaster> hoi
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07:05:23  <peter1138> Hmm, is there a reason we still need 3 pathfinders?
07:06:16  <Sacro> OCPF, one combining path finder
07:06:34  <Sacro> (only works in darkenness)
07:07:16  <Alberth> only for trade-off between performance and perfection, probably
07:07:46  <andythenorth> don’t we just need YAPF and the original?
07:08:12  <Alberth> something like that could work :)
07:08:59  <peter1138> Original is only there for ships.
07:09:04  <Alberth> although, I do want to implement JPS one day, at least for ships
07:09:26  <peter1138> Does NPF ever perform better than YAPF?
07:09:28  * andythenorth should try NPF
07:09:35  <andythenorth> maybe it lets RVs find depots
07:09:47  <andythenorth> with YAPF, they can’t
07:09:55  <andythenorth> but turning breakdowns off fixes that
07:10:19  <Alberth> I don't know how NPF and YAPF compare
07:10:53  <peter1138> andythenorth, eh? they do for me
07:11:20  <andythenorth> :|
07:11:28  * andythenorth never posts FS reports of bugs
07:11:42  <andythenorth> because I always have a bunch of newgrfs that can’t be had from bananas
07:11:53  <andythenorth> and I’ve blatantly been reloading them over and over again
07:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i have in the back of my head that NPF is usually like 10 times slower than YAPF
07:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> because of all the virtualisation overhead
07:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i guess it's kept because there is no real reason to remove it
07:21:59  <peter1138> virtualisation?
07:22:04  <nekomaster> wouldn't removing NPF streamline some code though?
07:22:49  <andythenorth> it would increase maintainability
07:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> virtual functions, i mean
07:23:31  <peter1138> NPF doesn't have any
07:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> afair it reimplements those, because it's written in C, not C++
07:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but i never actually looked at it
07:25:34  <Eddi|zuHause> YAPF was the first true C++ part of the code
07:25:47  <Alberth> nekomaster: hardly, there is a common interface to talk with the path-finder for all the other parts, so basically you throw away one case, reducing eg pathfinder settings from 3 cases to 2
07:26:08  <Alberth> true C++    *cough* *cough*
07:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and before the entire project was moved to C++, the C part reimplemented lots of object-oriented patterns
07:26:33  <Alberth> I killed some of those :p
07:26:47  <Alberth> ie entire newgrf code :p
07:26:57  <peter1138> linked lists ahoy
07:27:22  <Alberth> ah, is death at current processors, isn't it?
07:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, that can't have been easy for optimisation purposes
07:28:41  <Alberth> would be interesting to find out whether all the template stuff is actually improving performance
07:29:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: even 10 years ago i was taught that you better implement lists as continuous array chunks, because of caching
07:29:28  <Alberth> :O   nobody ever told me :p
07:29:44  <Alberth> I am too old, probably :p
07:30:10  <andythenorth> bah
07:30:26  <andythenorth> ottd hung
07:30:41  <nekomaster> hmm
07:31:02  <nekomaster> Would it ever be possible to have proper directional single tracks in openTTD?
07:31:37  <Alberth> how don't we have those now?
07:31:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the point of all the templating was that you have all the flexibility of NPF available, but resolved at compile-time rather than run-time
07:32:41  <Eddi|zuHause> which resulted in this factor 10-ish improvement
07:32:51  <Alberth> likely
07:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> back then, NPF was kept for comparison
07:33:27  <Alberth> but at the same time, you make c++ optimization impossible due to all the convoluted constructs
07:34:30  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
07:34:50  <Alberth> you can up-cast to a derived class with a template, but I don't believe a c++ compiler can't recognize that case by itself
07:35:38  <Alberth> all optimization in a compiler is based on common code patterns, wrapping it all in templates breaks having common patterns, and thus optimization opportunity recognition
07:36:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure what you mean... all the template stuff should be resolved by the time optimization happens
07:37:21  <Alberth> if you have a virtual derived method, the compiler recongizes that, and eliminates it
07:37:49  <Alberth> diy at template-unfolding time means the compiler never recgonizes such a thing
07:38:14  <Alberth> ie the templates try to outsmart all compiler optimizations from the moment it was add until eternity
07:38:32  <Alberth> ie sort-of hard-coding the 'optimal' result
07:38:48  <Alberth> except the optimal result is unlikely to be optimal at any point in time
07:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could re-implement NPF with actual classes and stuff, and compare performance with YAPF again
07:39:51  <andythenorth> if we delete it, does it get faster or slower? o_O
07:39:59  <Alberth> like I said, it would be an interesting experiment to see if the template stuff is actually working
07:40:02  <Eddi|zuHause> probably neither
07:40:32  <Alberth> compiling the code gets a bit faster, but hardly noticable :p
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07:40:55  <Alberth> NPF is only a few small files
07:40:56  <andythenorth> is a non-existent NPF infinitely fast or infinitely slow?
07:40:57  <peter1138> i was more thinking about maintainability
07:41:21  <peter1138> if you need a pf change right now, you need to do 2 or 3 times
07:41:33  <andythenorth> fork it!
07:41:46  <Alberth> would it also kill some old src/core data containers?
07:42:37  <peter1138> doubt it, npf is pre all thawt
07:42:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i think if we removed NPF, all the infrastructure for having multiple pathfinders will decay, and if we ever want to try a new pathfinder again, it would have to be redone
07:42:54  <peter1138> urgh, zbase never got fixed :(
07:42:56  <Alberth> we established NPF is slower?
07:43:04  <peter1138> nope
07:43:14  <Alberth> I have no problem throwing the slowest one out
07:43:19  <peter1138> it probably is, as that was largely the point of yapf
07:43:47  <andythenorth> ‘fork it’
07:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it's easy to test... pick a huge coop game, and switch pathfinders
07:44:24  <Alberth> you need some ship tests too, imho
07:44:43  <Alberth> and perhaps RVs
07:44:52  <Eddi|zuHause> there might be sublte behaviour differences because all the penalties are different, which might block a coop network
07:44:59  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no NPF for ships
07:45:15  <Alberth> ok, that's a fast test then :p
07:45:52  <peter1138> there certainly is NPF for ships
07:46:26  <Eddi|zuHause> since when?
07:46:52  <andythenorth> it’s in the settings
07:47:02  <andythenorth> so either the settings lie, or...
07:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> weird, i never noticed it there
07:47:38  <peter1138> git blame says 2005
07:48:06  <peter1138> ships also never had the original pathfinder removed
07:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> well, ok, then there is NPF for ships
07:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because both NPF and YAPF have problem with large fully-connected areas
07:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with original ship pathfinder is that it completely fails with rivers
07:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and even in large open waters it may fail to recognize diagonal routes
07:50:06  <peter1138> doesn't it also have an element of chance?
07:50:19  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno
07:50:20  <peter1138> with yapf ships always take the same route
07:50:24  <peter1138> with opf, they don't
07:56:08  <andythenorth> 15 slopes yak-shaved, 3 more to do \o/
07:56:57  <peter1138> hmm, in the arabic translation, some texts are missing their colour codes
07:59:28  <nekomaster> i honestly dont know how some people can get motivated to draw so many sprites
08:00:31  <peter1138> hmm 5°C, that's a bit cold to get the legs out
08:01:28  <andythenorth> nekomaster: mental strength :P
08:01:46  <andythenorth> if you look at RH, it’s mostly copy-paste
08:01:51  <nekomaster> I'm not fond of tedious work
08:03:55  <nekomaster> coding isn't so bad because I can just recycle stuff and change a few settings
08:04:26  <andythenorth> vehicles same
08:06:09  <andythenorth> there are only about 5 trucks and 5 trams here
08:06:16  <andythenorth> the rest is copy-paste
08:07:36  <Alberth> pixel-copying :)
08:08:32  <andythenorth> if only I could automate it :P
08:08:58  <Alberth> get a few infinite amount of monkeys :p
08:09:22  <andythenorth> you mean evolutionary procedural? o_O
08:09:25  <andythenorth> then pick the best ones?
08:10:10  <nekomaster> Well right now I'm planning on just reusing one model of truck for each class for all cargos
08:10:42  <Alberth> :O  generate random combinations, and ask which to iterate in the next generation, hmm, tediously clicking I am afraid :p
08:10:52  <andythenorth> Alberth: yeah, that’s why I didn’t :P
08:11:42  <Alberth> if you have good constraints on what "good" is, you could dramatically reduce the number of vehicles to select from
08:12:06  <Alberth> but it's non-trivial, to say the least :p
08:12:38  <nekomaster> hmm
08:13:02  <nekomaster> does anyone have any idea when Semi-Trailer Truck Doubles started becoming a thing?
08:14:38  <andythenorth> nekomaster: IRL, 1930s-1950s
08:14:45  <nekomaster> oh really?
08:14:55  <andythenorth> well that’s when I found a picture of one in California
08:15:00  <nekomaster> Ahh
08:15:13  <andythenorth> but there is a difference betwen ‘something unusual that is worth a picture on the internet’
08:15:17  <nekomaster> when I think of Doubles I think of your typical Semi-Tractor
08:15:19  <andythenorth> and 'actual history’
08:15:51  <nekomaster> I imagine that doubles as we know them today probably started becoming a big thing after the success of big powerful Semi-tractors in the 60's and 70's
08:18:42  <andythenorth> nekomaster: you could spend a lot of time in Hank’s Truck Pictures ;)
08:19:00  <andythenorth>
08:20:14  <nekomaster> looks like Western Express started doing doubles in 1958
08:20:18  <nekomaster> :|
08:21:09  <andythenorth>
08:21:27  <andythenorth>
08:22:11  <nekomaster> At the moment Articulated Semi-Trucks don't start appearing on my lists until 1975, after they lifted the limit on length of semi-trucks
08:22:22  <nekomaster> so by 1975 long nose trucks started becoming the norm
08:22:28  <andythenorth>
08:24:31  <andythenorth> my advice: just use IRL to get rough ideas, then make it fit the game
08:25:03  <andythenorth> if it helps, north america is a big continent, and the rules etc for trucks in Florida can be very different to those in BC
08:25:05  <nekomaster> Well in 1975, the first Semi-turck appears
08:25:15  <andythenorth> take what you need to make a good roster
08:25:27  <nekomaster> and I think in 1980 the first doubles will appear
08:25:48  <nekomaster> I'll just take some other Semi-tractors from each generation date, and make them fit
08:26:08  <andythenorth> doubles are a massive jump in capacity, right?
08:26:35  <andythenorth> maybe you should limit them to a turnpike NRT :P
08:26:52  <nekomaster> Well some area's do allow doubles
08:27:18  <nekomaster> I know they apepar here in Oshawa from time to time on major roads but they're usually coming off the highways and going to General motors or other industries in Oshawa
08:27:42  <nekomaster> Like trucks going to and from the Concrete plant here
08:29:56  <nekomaster> I think I might go with a 1980 GMC General for the first Double Semi-Tractor
08:31:59  <nekomaster> I think I'll model the first Double semi-tractor after the Smokey and the Bandit 1980 GMC General
08:33:48  <andythenorth> fair
08:34:06  <nekomaster> Also I like how its got a big sleeper cab bolted on the back
09:03:46  <andythenorth> 28 slopes done :P 12 left to do
09:05:14  <nekomaster>
09:05:17  <nekomaster> trucks!
09:06:37  <andythenorth> I get the names of forests, lakes, rivers, quarries and mines btw
09:06:39  <andythenorth> mostly
09:06:53  <nekomaster> Hmm?
09:07:07  <andythenorth> for trucks
09:07:11  <andythenorth> of / from /s
09:07:11  <nekomaster> YOu talking about how you name Road Hog trucks?
09:07:13  <andythenorth> yes
09:07:23  <nekomaster> that might work out for North american stuff too
09:08:28  <nekomaster> 1975 Petrolia [SEMI TANKER]
09:08:55  <nekomaster> 2025 Kedron Triple
09:13:21  <nekomaster> so now that I have some stuff laid out, I think I should get to work on the sprites
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09:34:02  <Samu> hello
09:34:43  <nekomaster> mm
09:34:50  <nekomaster> time for for the painful tedious work of sprit work
09:36:08  <Samu> hmm when the ship is going against the pier and wants to find a ship depot, it fails at finding it, it should not fail
09:36:26  <Samu> pathfinder doesn't try reverse finding
09:36:30  <Samu> how to fix?
09:44:49  <Alberth> ships don't turn around
09:46:26  <Alberth> likely, it should explore other feasible directions
09:48:46  <andythenorth> ‘paste from viewport’ is nuts :)
09:48:51  * andythenorth wonders who uses it
09:48:57  <andythenorth> maybe I should
09:49:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the feature is that crazy... but i don't really use viewports
09:50:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's possibly a bit misnamed
09:50:29  <andythenorth> I could make a section of map with ready-made stations on
09:50:31  <andythenorth> and just paste them in
09:52:02  <Alberth> ?
09:52:40  <Alberth> it just jumps to the VP location, afaik
09:53:07  <Samu> when the ship leaves depot, it goes the wrong way now, it didn't use to be like this, or at least I don't recall it doing like this
09:53:14  <Samu> need to test 1.7.0-RC1
09:53:28  <Samu> picks the wrong exit
09:55:08  <andythenorth> ha
09:55:19  * andythenorth thought paste from viewport would paste infra
09:55:31  <Samu> okay, the problem might be caused by me after all, gonna try fix it
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10:01:37  <Samu> bool bDest = IsShipDepotTile(n.m_segment_last_tile) && GetShipDepotPart(n.m_segment_last_tile) == DEPOT_PART_NORTH;
10:01:53  <Samu> ships only stop at the northest tile of a ship depot
10:02:02  <Samu> i was letting them stop at either
10:02:03  <Samu>  :(
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10:05:51  <Alberth> andy, that would require the copy/paste patch :p
10:08:28  <Samu> ships have to reverse at times
10:08:58  <Samu> but the pathfinder says path not found, hmm
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10:09:43  <Samu> once it reverses, path is found
10:09:56  <Wolf01> o/
10:10:00  <Samu> hi
10:10:01  <Alberth> o/
10:10:18  <Samu> how do i make the pathfinder aware that it will eventually reverse the ship'
10:10:29  <Samu> and thus, find a path
10:12:32  <Wolf01> Eh
10:13:27  <Wolf01> Is it me or webster didn't update the clock?
10:14:53  * andythenorth bbl
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10:17:40  <Samu>
10:17:42  <Wolf01> Samu, if you make the pathfinder ignore the ship direction? When stationally most ships can turn around in place, so once the pathfinder finds a path, the ship should automatically rotate
10:17:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: is it maybe set to UTC?
10:18:00  <Samu> problem in picture
10:18:32  <Samu> order 1 was skipped because ship is "lost", pathfinder doesn't find a path, but the ship would reverse anyway
10:18:43  <Samu> and then it would find the path
10:19:07  <Wolf01> Ships should avoid 90° turns only when moving
10:19:32  <Wolf01> But I don't see why they can't turn 180° when stationary
10:19:50  <Wolf01> Like trains at stations
10:21:26  <Alberth> imho, only as a last resort
10:23:39  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: is it maybe set to UTC? <- yeah, time zones and DST always ruin my biorythm... I don't see why not to use UTC everywhere, you can have high noon even at 20:30, even now clocks aren't in sync with the sun anyway
10:23:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen ships get hopelessly lost after docking in a river, because they couldn't turn around
10:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: well, the general idea of DST is that the clock should move with sunrise (but changing the clock every day to adjust would be unwieldy)
10:25:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's rather unimportant for your biorhythm when noon is
10:25:41  <Wolf01> Lets use roosters then
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10:37:33  <Wolf01> Quak
10:38:12  <frosch123> ciao
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10:52:46  <Samu> what are tile hases for? I see this many times, but still not sure what they're doing
10:52:49  <Samu> hashes
11:01:07  <Alberth> quick finding of a tile
11:02:10  <Alberth> if you have a million tiles randomly picked, and you need to know if a given tile is in that set, you don't want to check each of the million tiles
11:03:13  <Alberth> so you compute a mostly unique value for each tile, and save each of the million tiles according to its unique value
11:03:51  <Alberth> for a given tile that you need to find, compute also the unique value, and only checks the tiles stored on that value
11:05:06  <Alberth> for a good hash, the latter is a few tiles at most
11:05:29  <Alberth> so you save checking of about 999,998 other tiles  or so
11:07:42  <Samu> typedef CNodeList_HashTableT<CYapfShipNodeExitDir , 10, 12> CShipNodeListExitDir;
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11:39:36  <Samu> m_max_search_nodes = 10000 is quite a low value
11:40:02  <Samu> can't detect a ship depot a few tiles away on open sea
11:41:12  <Samu> wish i could visualize what tiles it has worked on during search
11:41:39  <Samu> how further 10000 can reach
12:07:36  <Wolf01> Try caching all ship depots, order them by nearest and then try to pathfind towards the nearest one, if unreachable then try the next one
12:08:49  <Samu> it's a hard setting that value m_max_search_nodes = 10000
12:09:37  <Samu> user defined, actually, in config
12:09:47  <Samu> but i never touched it
12:10:27  <Samu> when invoking pathfinder, it would still only search up to 10000
12:10:30  <Samu> nodes
12:11:43  <Samu> 		if (!QueryNewTileTrackStatus()) return TryReverse();
12:11:53  <Samu> querynewtiletrackstatus returns false
12:12:00  <Samu> !false becomes true
12:12:07  <Samu> tryreverse, wondering what happens
12:13:11  <Samu> i see, TryReverse only reverses for non-tram road vehicles
12:13:29  <Samu> i think i know where i got to fix
12:18:18  <Samu> ships might be doing reversings unexpectedly, i wonder
12:18:29  <Samu> nothing like testing and see what happens
12:21:13  <Samu> problem solved!
12:21:22  <Samu> yay, can't believe i'm doing well
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12:22:43  <Samu> this has also solved the ship is lost message, it's no longer lost
12:22:48  <Samu> yay
12:22:51  <Samu> 2 in 1 fix
12:24:43  <Samu> must try some 90 degree forbidden stuff
12:24:46  <Samu> don't wanna break it
12:27:23  <Samu> ah i see, the ship is too smart now
12:27:47  <Samu> this fix is creating unexpected reversals
12:28:09  <Samu> Alberth: how do i make a OnlyReverseAsLastResort
12:32:09  <Samu> - ship turns left to go into terrain because it knows it can reverse :(
12:32:26  <Samu> it should go straight because there's still water ahead
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12:58:21  <Eddi|zuHause>
13:00:25  <peter1138> Afternoon
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13:05:35  <Wolf01> a Web page is now like
13:05:35  <Wolf01> "V’Ger from the first “Star Trek” movie, a piece of technology
13:05:35  <Wolf01> that we once understood but can no longer fathom" true... that's really true
13:06:37  <Wolf01> WTF copying from PDF is always so shitty?
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13:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> PDF is only marginally better than CSS :p
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14:06:48  <supermop_home> dont have univers on here anymore
14:07:02  <supermop_home> also new ID seems not to have spell check
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14:13:48  <Samu> who can help?
14:13:53  <Samu>
14:14:14  <Samu> problem i have is this:
14:14:21  <Samu> i added that to follow track
14:15:42  <Samu> ship is turning left to reverse
14:15:53  <Samu> instead, i want it to follow the water
14:16:05  <Samu> Alberth: !! :(
14:17:01  <Samu> i only want it to reverse if there really is no other alternative
14:19:05  <peter1138> hi
14:21:40  <Samu> unsure how to do this
14:22:04  <Samu> it needs to know if there are other exits
14:22:13  <Samu> if there is, then don't reverse
14:22:19  <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> PDF is only marginally better than CSS :p <- indeed, in PDF is the whole structure which is a pita
14:22:36  <Samu> don't take this node
14:22:45  <Samu> use the node which has an exit
14:23:06  <Wolf01> "ship too smart now" XD
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14:24:27  <Alberth> try the reverse exit last
14:24:49  <Alberth> or give it a high penalty
14:26:32  <Samu> reverse exit last? gonna see if such thing exists
14:30:06  <Samu> CYapfOriginTileTwoWayT ?
14:33:41  <peter1138> Yeah, big penalty for reverse
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14:46:33  <Samu> gotta see how's it done for rails, rails have it working best
14:55:47  <Samu> 	bool ret = pfnFindNearestDepotTwoWay(v, origin.tile, origin.trackdir, last_tile, td_rev, max_penalty, YAPF_INFINITE_PENALTY, &fdd.tile, &fdd.reverse);
14:55:54  <Samu> interesting
14:58:25  <Samu> infinite penalty
14:58:36  <Samu> nice way to solve things
15:05:45  <Samu> pfnFindNearestDepotTwoWay isn't what I want
15:05:48  <Samu> hmm
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15:08:22  <Wolf01> Meow
15:09:04  <Wolf01> <- andythenorth please read
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15:24:30  <andythenorth> such
15:25:54  <Wolf01> Last time I've laughed so much it was when I read the same rants about Delphi and it's weird conversion of values to boolean
15:26:53  <andythenorth> there’s a guy with a list of poor PHP design choices somewhere
15:27:05  <andythenorth> it’s very lojng
15:27:06  <Wolf01> Yeah, I bookmarked that
15:28:04  <peter1138> lol @ song lyrics : bedding taylor swift, every night in the oculus rift
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15:38:57  <marrenarre> If I install OpenTTD via the system package manager on Debian, is it bad to install online content via OpenTTD’s package manager?
15:39:34  <marrenarre> Especially since e.g. opengfx is installed by APT as a dependency.
15:40:03  <frosch123> there is only a bare minimum in the package manager
15:40:37  <supermop_home> hmm need to remember how to put stuff on my website
15:41:26  <marrenarre> frosch123: Okay so no worries about any weird mixup? I’ll just go ahead and install stuff?
15:42:51  <frosch123> the content download is only supposed to offer stuff that is compatible
15:42:54  <Alberth> since online content is done as normal user, it'll end in your $HOME, not in /usr/somewhere, where the packages stuff is
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15:53:04  <peter1138> marrenarre, it will not conflict :) openttd will not alter the system installed content, and will use the newest content when possible.
15:54:43  <marrenarre> frosch123, peter1138: Okay, thank you!
15:55:02  <marrenarre> Alberth also.
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16:02:34  <Snail> peter1138: any chance we could raise the number of RailTypes in a game to 32?
16:02:47  <peter1138> I had a patch for that...
16:03:10  <Snail> nice… where can I find it?
16:03:45  <peter1138>
16:03:50  <peter1138> It's... old.
16:03:58  <peter1138> 2013...
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16:04:18  <Rubidium> it's from this millenium, so it's not that old
16:04:20  <peter1138> I think there's a more recent one someone else did on the forums.
16:04:33  <peter1138> Rubidium, they all are! decade, on the other hand...
16:04:40  <Snail> it would be nice itf it were put in trunk
16:05:10  <Rubidium> maybe we should...
16:05:13  <peter1138> Well it was a bit nasty, and might break stuff like NRT...
16:05:34  <Rubidium> ... make a folder with ancient patches in ^/trunk ...
16:05:53  <peter1138> < start there :D
16:05:57  <Rubidium> ... and then not provide or update them. We did put the patch in trunk, right?
16:06:06  <peter1138> < don't forget this though.
16:06:14  <peter1138> < and this
16:06:54  <peter1138> ahhh the old opengl patch
16:07:04  <Rubidium> π <- there, all of my patches
16:07:18  <peter1138> pocketpc patch
16:07:25  <peter1138> i mean... what even is a pocket pc these days?
16:09:12  <Rubidium> given that pockets are growing in size as of late... I guess they're getting bigger
16:09:19  <Snail> how many road types do we have with NRT?
16:09:48  <Rubidium> too
16:11:32  <frosch123> Snail: 16 road + 16 tram
16:11:45  <frosch123> so, essentially, 16 items in every dropdown
16:12:12  <Snail> right… but considering that rails have additional levels of complexity (gauges, electrification types)
16:12:14  <frosch123> Snail: why do you need more railtypes? do you want to vary them like new objects? or do you want to provide combinations of mixed properties?
16:12:16  <Snail> we could have 32 for them
16:12:42  <Snail> I need to provide combinations of rail types (light, heavy, highspeed…) with electrification systems
16:12:52  <frosch123> 18:12] <Snail> right… but considering that rails have additional levels of complexity (gauges, electrification types) <- that does not sound as if you have taken a look at the existing nrt grfs :p
16:13:13  <frosch123> Snail: consider adding grf parameters
16:13:27  <peter1138> consider gameplay vs realism
16:13:44  <frosch123> a dropdown with "a" "b", "a+b", "c", "a+c", "b+c", "a+b+c" just makes no sense
16:13:52  <Snail> even with parameters, I’d need more than 16 in a game… especially if the game spans from 1840 to today
16:15:11  <Rubidium> oh yes... we definitely need 4 feet 8.5 inches and 1435 mm gauges ;)
16:15:22  <Snail> frosch123: it does make sense. A player would need to choose between “catenary”, “third rail”, “third rail + catenary” across different track types (2 gauges, 3 axle weights, different speeds)
16:15:43  <Snail> Rubidium: no, but we can’t put 1435 and 1000mm on the same track :p
16:15:46  <frosch123> Snail: no, it makes no sense, because there is no train grf which would use all those combinations
16:15:57  <Snail> frosch123: there will be
16:16:00  <Snail> so it does make sense
16:16:48  <Snail> frosch123: it’s like the chicken and the egg. There are no train grf’s like that, because the rail types don’t allow. It’s not a valid argument to not expand rail types
16:17:17  <frosch123> it's a first world problem, you cannot have everything
16:17:20  <Alberth> having 32 different train types that cannot use each other rail, is nuts
16:17:38  <Snail> Alberth: there will of course be compatibilities
16:18:03  <Alberth> why have different railtypes if they can both use 1?
16:18:03  <peter1138> does NUTS have rail types?
16:18:06  <Snail> trains with both 3rd rail and catenary would be able to use “3rd rail”, “catenary” and “3rd-rail + catenary” types
16:18:10  <Alberth> peter1138: yes
16:19:13  <Alberth> Snail: people will simply build the most common railtype
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16:19:57  <Rubidium> super high speed, super heavy 3rd rail catenary... aka "universal rail"
16:20:00  <peter1138> and complain that autoreplace doesn't work
16:20:15  <Snail> Alberth: but they would evolve with time, and with their needs
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16:20:44  <Alberth> 200 year game play, 32 railtypes, 6 years for a new railtype?
16:20:48  <Snail> say, if the best vehicle for climbing a mountain is a 3rd-rail engine, they would build that track, or a “3rd rail + catenary” track to allow for more compatibilities
16:20:49  <Alberth> models life longer
16:21:34  <Alberth> *live
16:21:35  <Snail> Alberth: not necessarily, because different railtypes would be available at the same time. Users would choose the best depending on cost and their capabilities
16:21:48  <Alberth> cost is a non-issue
16:22:55  <Alberth> you'll end up with 3/4 of the track types unused, so why have them in the first place?
16:23:20  <Alberth> condense choices, and give player a reasonable amount of useful alternatives
16:24:06  <Snail> this is a way to avoid the problem rather than dealing with it
16:24:43  <Snail> I’d need to force my players to buy a heavier track if they need 3rd rail… even if they only use light vehicles
16:25:22  <Alberth> most players don't care about such details, imho
16:25:39  <Alberth> unless you have trains as a hobby or prefosseion
16:25:51  <Snail> they’d have to pay more for a track that’s heavier and has a higher topspeed than they actually need… because we don’t want to increase the number of rail types
16:27:14  <Alberth> any number is insufficient, by definition
16:27:33  <Snail> so why not going back to 2 :p
16:27:41  <Alberth> fine by me
16:27:58  <Alberth> I could even play with 1
16:28:06  <peter1138> well we had 3 originally...
16:28:24  <Snail> right, so we play in a different way. My point is, I don’t want to force anyone to use lots of railtypes if they don’t want to
16:28:44  <Snail> I’m just suggesting the possibility of using more than 16 for those who need to/want to
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16:31:02  <Alberth> reality is broken, don't need to replicate it in openttd, imho
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16:31:21  <Rubidium> but if you want to go so far into the nitty gritty of things, then railtypes are basically bad. You need something to configure the perfect railtype for your particular situation
16:31:26  <peter1138> +return (RailType)(GB(_m[t].m3, 0, 4) | (GB(_m[t].m1, 7, 1) << 4));
16:31:34  <peter1138> ^ that was the nasty bit about the patch :p
16:32:34  <Rubidium> So you don't have 32 railtypes, no you have dozens of gauges, dozens of voltages, dozens of weights, dozens of forms, dozens of types of steel and so on to choose from
16:34:05  <Alberth> use a railway simulator to simulate a railway
16:34:12  <peter1138> This is :D
16:34:26  <Snail> that’s like putting to an extreme. I’d be fine to have a combination of 2 / 3 gauges, max weight, max speed, and electrification type to choose from
16:34:30  <Alberth> it's not, it's a transport game
16:34:37  <Snail> a bit like locomotion when electrification was an overlay to a track
16:34:54  <Snail> but it’s not possible in OTTD to allowing for more railtypes would be a way to get the same effect
16:35:03  <Rubidium> because for reality, I really need NP46, UIC54E1, UIC54E3, UIC54E5 and UIC60
16:35:30  <peter1138> don't forget uk loading gauge!
16:36:06  <Rubidium> and 1500 VDC <2500 A, 1500 VDC 2500-4000 A, VDC > 4000 A, 3000 VDC, 15kV AC, 25 kV AC
16:36:26  <peter1138> bah
16:36:31  <peter1138> just add a byte to the map array
16:36:33  <peter1138> 256 rail types
16:36:50  <Alberth> only 8 properties :p
16:37:15  <Alberth> less if you have more values for a property than 2 :p
16:37:33  <Rubidium> and not to mention the safety systems that might be available (which is, ofcourse, a bitmask): ATB EG, ATB NG, ATB VV, ERTMS level 1, ERTMS level 2, ERTMS level 3, ERTMS level 3 hybrid, PZB, LZB, ...
16:37:57  <Snail> ok, so let’s put everything on 1 railtype
16:38:01  <Rubidium> oh, and the type of sleepers ofcourse... concrete, wooden, composite
16:38:08  <Snail> monorail, maglev, electrified…
16:38:14  <Snail> but why not road vehicles and trams too
16:38:18  <Snail> all in 1
16:38:38  <Rubidium> heh... by I haven't started on the hardnesses/brands of rail yet...
16:39:56  <Snail> even cable cars… and airplane runways too… who needs different roads/rails anyway
16:41:08  <Rubidium> there are at least 14 "qualities" of rail and at least 44 "brands" of rail that we need to model properly
16:41:24  <Rubidium> can we ever be realistic for a huge country like the Netherlands
16:42:43  <peter1138> ok we can use 4 bits of m6
16:42:48  <Alberth> :O  that many?  lots of old tracks I guess
16:43:15  <Snail> Rubidium: if we took things to an extreme, we could talk about either 1 type for all, or thousands of types. My point is just to have the possibility to expand current things a bit
16:43:49  <Rubidium> but where it too much?
16:44:14  <Rubidium> s/it/is/
16:45:21  <Rubidium> and we already expanded it two bits
16:46:28  <peter1138> actually it was always 4 bits
16:47:35  <frosch123> peter1138: we need a dropdown with a text filter :p
16:47:45  <Snail> one could argue that 16 tram tracks are also “too much”… after all there is less variation for trams than there is for trains… but that was done
16:48:07  <Alberth> Snail: it's like the map size. I have yet to see a usefully filled map at 1024x1024, yet people wanted 2048x2048. Later, people wanted 4096x4096. Patchpacks still have 8192x8192, it is never enough, even though all those maps are just more empty space
16:48:32  <Alberth> yet I still haven't seen anyone filling a map of 1024x1024
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16:50:28  <peter1138> ps, why the game run so slow?
16:50:38  <peter1138> make it use all cores!
16:54:02  <Alberth> gpu doesn't work either
16:56:21  <peter1138> michi_cc has a patch for that!
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17:14:55  <andythenorth> Snail: why weight, specifically?
17:15:45  <andythenorth> also do you have speed limits?
17:32:30  <Snail> andythenorth: yes
17:32:44  <Snail> I have both axle weight limits and speed limits
17:33:10  <Snail> axle weight limits are important in the early years, when you can run light rolling stock on lighter rails (cheaper)
17:33:29  <Snail> and before using the large steamers of the late XIX century, you need to upgrade your rails
17:34:37  <Snail> having more railtypes allows to use early electric rolling stock, without having to buy heavier tracks
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17:45:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27830 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2017-03-26 19:45:37 +0200 )
17:45:49  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:50  <DorpsGek> catalan: 6 changes by juanjo
17:45:51  <DorpsGek> italian: 1 change by lorenzodv
17:45:52  <DorpsGek> russian: 6 changes by Lone_Wolf
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18:07:55  * andythenorth finds constraints useful
18:08:02  * peter1138 ties up andythenorth 
18:08:10  <peter1138> Wait that sounds a bit too kinky.
18:08:18  <andythenorth> can you unsay that?
18:08:19  <andythenorth> thanks
18:09:05  <V453000> omg you guys tying each other?
18:09:06  <V453000> shit got real
18:09:58  <andythenorth> is V453000
18:10:05  <andythenorth> look everyone
18:10:08  <V453000> is
18:10:53  <andythenorth> such BRIX
18:11:01  <V453000> yeah no
18:11:08  <V453000> factorio 300% atm
18:11:15  <Supercheese> more like such railtankers
18:11:19  <Supercheese> very higres
18:11:22  <V453000> but big time python mayhem
18:11:29  <Supercheese> much biter
18:11:47  <V453000> doing some pretty mad shit with python blender :) all of my rendering is now handled by python scripts now
18:12:16  <andythenorth> lawks
18:12:24  <andythenorth> saves pressing the buttons though
18:12:31  <andythenorth> also proof that python is dangerous
18:12:34  <andythenorth> anyone can use it :P
18:12:51  <V453000> it's not just about that, with blender you can do "some" degree of automation, but this is so much more flexible
18:13:00  <Supercheese> and it's Factorio
18:13:03  <Supercheese> so automate everything
18:13:22  <andythenorth> factorio should have a script API
18:13:26  <V453000> for example, ever since I started using Blender I always wanted a feature which would allow me to override all materials EXCEPT some in a render pass ... blender only allows to override everything, which has stupidly many cases when it completely breaks
18:13:27  <andythenorth> in and out
18:13:44  <V453000> andythenorth: some guy already wrote fbasic, he controls the factory with it
18:13:50  <frosch123> sounds like we will see yaks in factorio before we see slugs
18:13:50  <V453000> he made a self-replicating base that plays itself
18:13:50  <andythenorth> the real factory?
18:14:07  * andythenorth considers F as general-purpose automation software
18:14:11  <V453000> XD
18:14:18  <andythenorth> could have a real furnace somewhere
18:14:22  <andythenorth> super pro edition
18:16:23  <V453000> but yeah, stuff's fun
18:16:34  <V453000> also what is it with yaks? :D
18:16:48  <frosch123> they produce a lot of wool
18:17:03  <frosch123> which is an ingredient to firs or something
18:18:14  <andythenorth> FIRS Tibet economy
18:18:26  <andythenorth> yak farm: butter, wool
18:18:34  <andythenorth> windchime factory
18:32:35  <andythenorth> so in Photoshop CC 2017, the paint bucket has anti-alias on permanently
18:32:52  <andythenorth> NFI what Adobe think they’re doing
18:32:58  <andythenorth> this seems like the worst photoshop ever
18:33:09  <supermop_home> andythenorth well I will be sticking with 2016 then
18:33:37  <frosch123> isn't there some checkbox to uncheck somewhere?
18:34:08  <andythenorth> it’s permanently checked and greyed out
18:34:34  <andythenorth> I have to switch to RGB mode, uncheck it, and switch back to indexed
18:35:23  <supermop_home> that sounds even worse than if they had even removed the option to uncheck
18:35:30  <frosch123> ah, yeah, you are probably their only indexed user
18:35:34  <supermop_home> if they make you jump through a hoop
18:35:38  <supermop_home> me too
18:35:45  <supermop_home> but I'm not on 2017
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18:59:58  <peter1138> if x is constant
19:00:15  <peter1138> does "+ 1 - x" get nicely thrown away?
19:04:24  <supermop_home> now iD has frozen up while trying to print a pdf
19:05:04  <Alberth>  + (1 - x)     I would expect to be surely being computed at compile time
19:05:13  <peter1138> Yeah
19:05:34  <Alberth> but, if you want to win the war by merging constants, you have basically already lost :p
19:06:31  <frosch123> where is lordaro to talk about constexpr? :p
19:06:47  <Alberth> but it likely does common sub-expression elimination etc, so likely it computes something completely different than you think :p
19:07:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r27831 trunk/src/widget.cpp (2017-03-26 21:07:08 +0200 )
19:07:15  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24577): Misaligned resize icon (due to widget bounds being inclusive)
19:07:33  <LordAro> frosch123: sup
19:08:19  <peter1138> Hmm
19:09:14  <peter1138> Damn it
19:09:50  <peter1138> Thought I'd messed up. I was running the wrong copy :po
19:09:52  <peter1138> -o
19:10:02  <Alberth> phew :)
19:10:15  <peter1138> It would've been a "you had one job" moment...
19:10:48  <peter1138> (but yeah, most of the time left = 10, right = 20 ... 10 pixels... not in ottd land! that's 11 pixels...
19:10:51  <peter1138> )
19:12:40  <peter1138> I also spent too long verifying that I wasn't imagining it was different.
19:12:54  <peter1138> Turns out original TTD doesn't even have them.
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19:26:23  <Alberth> yep, left and right are messy inclusive
19:26:53  <Alberth> I killed a lot of that in the gui rewrite :p
19:30:22  <peter1138> It simplifies some things. But it's unusual.
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19:49:14  <peter1138> Hmm
19:49:41  <peter1138> Width 65 x 22... results in the widget being about double the height it should be
19:49:46  <peter1138> (didn't actually measure it)
19:49:49  <peter1138> Width 0 x22
19:49:51  <peter1138> works
19:49:53  <peter1138> er
19:49:57  <peter1138> s/width/size/
19:53:51  <Alberth> 0 wide or 0 high widgets are used a lot :)
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19:54:13  <peter1138> it's just a minimum size
19:54:37  <Alberth> ah, ok
19:54:50  <peter1138> i don't see why, if the width is set correctly (and is narrower than the widget ends up being) it makes the widget taller
19:56:12  <Alberth> weird, width and height aren't related, except in some special widgets, afaik
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19:59:44  <peter1138> Oh, I found it...
20:01:06  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
20:08:18  <peter1138>
20:08:18  <peter1138> or
20:08:23  <peter1138>
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20:29:58  * andythenorth makes better vineyard
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20:34:40  <andythenorth>
20:34:50  <andythenorth> is just base set sprites
20:34:54  <andythenorth> not too far from
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20:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> the building is too tall
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20:45:52  <andythenorth> the building is ugh
20:46:45  <andythenorth> also bedtime
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23:13:54  <Samu> i'm invoking pathfinder twice :(
23:14:48  <peter1138> shocking
23:14:48  <Samu> 	typedef CYapfOriginTileT<Types>           PfOrigin;      // origin provider
23:15:20  <Samu> i would have to use CYapfOriginTileTwoWayT, but that would require changing a ton of code
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23:16:25  <nekomaster> blargh
23:17:36  <Samu> besides, water tracks don't have signals
23:17:59  <Samu> i'd need a slightly different version of CYapfOriginTileTwoWayT
23:18:44  <Samu> and i'm still unsure how to interpret this code
23:18:57  <Samu> i'm surprised I made it this far
23:19:06  <peter1138> to be h onest
23:19:12  <peter1138> nobody really understands the yapf code
23:19:18  <peter1138> not even the author
23:19:35  <Samu> orly
23:19:37  <peter1138> i mean, notice how the code style is totally different to the rest... :p
23:19:51  <peter1138> nobody dare touch it
23:20:42  <Samu> i see tons of template class, consts and whatever
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23:21:03  <Samu> don't really know how it builds up nicely with each other
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23:24:00  <Wolf01> Man... I've just finished to set a custom highlight for locomotive basic
23:24:42  <peter1138> Hmm, just noticed the intro game in TTD is muted
23:25:01  <Samu> oops, i made the wrong copy paste
23:25:02  <Wolf01> Notepad++ is not really the right tool for custom highlights, I had to do some compromises
23:25:49  <Samu> this is what I wanted to paste
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23:26:27  <Samu> line 79 and 80 is invoking the pathfinder twice
23:26:43  <Samu> ideally, i should invoke only 1 pathfinder, which accents 2 origins
23:27:02  <Samu> it wouldn't be repeating some nodes
23:27:16  <Samu> which accepts* 2 origins typo
23:28:35  <Samu> path_found1 is the path that is found on the direction the ship is heading to, path_found2 is the path found starting on the opposite ship direction
23:29:23  <Samu> sometimes pf1 doesn't find a path, but on the reversed direction it does
23:30:02  <Samu> i retrieve the ship depot tile that it finds on pf2, but still let the ship take pf1 path, to maintain expected behaviour
23:30:17  <Wolf01> 280 i$=UPPER$(INKEY$):IF i$<>"Y" AND i$<>"N" THEN 280    <- maybe I'm tired
23:30:21  <Samu> ship doesn't smart up
23:30:39  <Samu> and i still get a depot found
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23:32:00  <Samu> the correct way to do this would be however with 1 pathfinder, 2 origins, not 2 pathfinders, each with 1 origin
23:32:03  <Samu> halp
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23:33:16  <glx> <Wolf01> Man... I've just finished to set a custom highlight for locomotive basic <-- the amstrad cpc one ?
23:33:24  <Wolf01> Exactly
23:34:10  <glx> hmm missing GOTO on your 280 line I think :)
23:34:21  <Wolf01> Implicit
23:34:35  <Wolf01> It's the condition I can't understand
23:35:08  <glx> it wants "Y" or "N"
23:35:23  <Wolf01> Yes, but it can't be both
23:35:24  <glx> if not it restarts input
23:36:00  <glx> !Y and !N is Y OR N
23:36:17  <glx> well !(Y OR N)
23:36:27  <Wolf01> Then I'm tired
23:36:49  <Wolf01> And the Pirate DeMorgan will come to pull my feets this night
23:37:38  <glx> but yes basic DeMorgan stuff :)
23:37:39  <Wolf01> *-s
23:38:36  <Wolf01> I don't know why but I've seen <> as ==
23:39:09  <glx> == is = in conditions
23:39:28  <glx> (not the best idea at that time)
23:39:38  <Wolf01> Yeah, it doesn't even exists == in loco basic
23:41:26  <glx> but using only <,> and = to write conditions probably simplified the parsing
23:43:01  <Wolf01> BTW, code is unreadable... it seem javascript with inline closures... full of subroutines mixed in the main loop
23:43:44  <glx> size optimisation for a big program ?
23:43:57  <Wolf01> Nah, a 300 lines game
23:44:43  <Wolf01> I'm trying to fix the ocr errors
23:45:02  <glx> anyway basic is easily unreadable when you start to do some complex stuff
23:45:15  <Wolf01> Spaghetti code
23:45:23  <Wolf01> At its finest
23:45:38  <glx> I remember the fun it was to enter lines of data :)
23:46:04  <Wolf01> Eh, I just passed one of the symbol definitions, and I have 2 pages of data at the end
23:47:04  <glx> usually data lines contained z80 asm stuff, but can also be music or graphics
23:47:43  <peter1138> urgh... screen burn
23:48:29  <Wolf01> 820 CLS:LOCATE 1,3:IN~ 6,0 <- here is one error... INK became IN~
23:51:32  <Wolf01> 1090 x=INT(RND*(maxx-minx+1»+minx <- yes, like I won't spot this one
23:52:07  <glx> mode 0 game I guess
23:52:22  <Wolf01> Yeah
23:53:37  <peter1138> BBC BASIC or get out
23:53:43  <Wolf01> Oh dear... FOR ;=1 TO objr... all "i" became ";"
23:55:24  <glx> I hope "j" detection was better
23:55:51  <Wolf01> That seem ok
23:55:54  <glx> else good luck with the usual imbricated i and j loops :)
23:56:11  <Samu> max_search_nodes of 10000 is quite low :(
23:56:19  <Samu> at least for ships
23:56:40  <glx> that's why buoys are recommended for ships
23:56:42  <Samu> on open sea that's like 15 tiles away max radius
23:58:01  <Samu> but when searching for nearest depot, i don't have buoys
23:58:11  <Samu> it's the pathfinder that is looking for it

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