Log for #openttd on 30th March 2017:
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08:43:40  <Wolf01> o/
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08:49:31  <Wolf01> Oh hi, long time no see
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09:29:11  <Samu> hi
09:31:02  <crem> hi
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10:43:33  <Wolf01> I didn't notice that we had the Prince of Madness in this chan :D
10:44:53  <peter1138> ok so
10:45:07  <peter1138> we fork & exec the extmidi process, which is nice
10:45:45  <peter1138> but one process i use doesn't cleanly shutdown on SIGTERM, but does with SIGINT
10:47:01  <peter1138> :S
10:48:08  <Wolf01> Internet didn't gave you any suitable solution?
10:48:24  <__ln__> *give
10:48:34  <peter1138> well i know i can send whatever signal i like
10:48:39  <peter1138> but i don't know what is appropriate
10:48:56  <peter1138> i mean, is it just a bug in this other program that it doesn't cleanly shutdown on SIGTERM?
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10:52:06  <peter1138> orudge fix your shitty connection young man
10:52:42  <Wolf01> Maybe I should donate 5€
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11:41:53  <Samu> question,
11:42:13  <Samu> shouldn't 'the_dir' be TrackdirBits?
11:42:21  <Samu> why is it TrackdirByte
11:42:47  <Samu> line 32
11:43:18  <peter1138> no
11:45:01  <peter1138> 100 		tpf->the_dir = TrackEnterdirToTrackdir(track, direction);
11:45:11  <peter1138> ^ trackdir, not trackdirbits
11:45:52  <Wolf01> Oh, Eddi|zuHause they seem to have fixed the blasting sound volume in the menu of transport fever :D
11:46:24  <peter1138> but
11:46:37  <Samu> it gets trackdir but stores as trackdirbyte
11:46:49  <Wolf01> Now it would be cool if it gets fixed in OTTD too :>
11:47:01  <peter1138> Wolf01, the intro game?
11:47:10  <Wolf01> Nah, BMG in the entire game
11:47:17  <peter1138> BMG?
11:47:22  <Wolf01> Background music
11:47:28  <peter1138> what?
11:47:29  <Wolf01> *BGM
11:47:36  <peter1138> what's wrong with it?
11:47:45  <Wolf01> Every time I launch the game I get the music at 100% while it is at 15%
11:47:57  <peter1138> on windows?
11:47:59  <Wolf01> This since... ever
11:48:00  <Wolf01> Yes
11:48:25  <Wolf01> I need to move the volume slider to make it work right
11:48:43  <peter1138> don't see it on flyspray
11:48:59  <Wolf01> I was sure I reported it a lot of time ago...
11:52:47  <Wolf01> Wow... rail speed layer, this is really a good addition
11:53:32  <Wolf01> Ha! There is a stupid slowdown from 120 to 87
11:53:43  <Wolf01> Straight track
11:54:15  <peter1138> well, music volume is set on start up
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11:55:31  <peter1138> does it stay the same volume when the track changes?
11:55:50  <Wolf01> I don't know, never gave it time
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11:59:24  <Wolf01> It seem to do it only the first time I run the game, if I quit and run it again the volume is right
12:00:27  <Wolf01> *after changing the volume, if I don't change the volume I bet it stays at 100% every time
12:00:42  <Wolf01> But I might have to reboot to check it
12:01:12  <peter1138> is it dmusic or win32 driver?
12:01:40  <Wolf01> How could I tell it?
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12:02:01  <peter1138> -d driver=1
12:02:09  <peter1138> (run in a terminal)
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12:03:24  <Wolf01> It says nothing
12:03:35  <peter1138> nothing?
12:03:42  <Wolf01> Oh ok, I had to start the music
12:03:45  <Wolf01> win32 driver
12:07:20  <Samu> peter1138: if it's Trackdir, why is it using TrackdirByte, any special reason?
12:11:32  <peter1138> -       byte track;
12:11:32  <peter1138> +       TrackdirByte track;
12:11:45  <peter1138> r8038: merge cpp branch
12:12:30  <Samu> what does that mean?
12:12:55  <Samu> gonna try Trackdir, see if it crashes or something
12:20:11  <Wolf01> Do you know about variable types?
12:22:09  <Samu> line 141 is also confusing
12:22:14  <Samu> byte ship_dir
12:22:26  <Samu> why not Direction ship_dir
12:24:36  <Samu> oh, it's DirectionByte
12:24:43  <Samu> i don't understand this stuff
12:26:32  <peter1138> :)
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12:37:12  <drac_boy> hi
12:37:59  <peter1138> hello dragonhorseboy
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13:32:50  <Samu> alright, i might be able to do something for opf after all, but it requires some struct changes
13:33:10  <Samu> i need to have ship owner in the pfs
13:33:49  <Samu> TrackPathFinder { bla; bla; Owner ship_owner; };
13:36:01  <Samu> now i can detect a ship depot tile of the owner of the ship
13:36:45  <Samu> now, all i have to do is... pathfind to something that is a ship depot tile
13:36:59  <Samu> hmm
13:37:14  <Samu> whatever it finds first, use it as the destination
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13:55:30  <Wolf01> Nice, double slip switches, let me see if I can fix some stations now
14:00:05  <Wolf01> Fixed a tricky one
14:06:44  <Samu> making opf great again
14:06:46  <Samu> keke
14:07:04  <peter1138> yeah no
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15:06:20  <Wolf01> o/
15:06:37  <Alberth> moin
15:06:52  <peter1138> hello
15:15:21  <supermop> yo
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17:00:37  <Samu> yay, for the first time, I made opf locate a ship depot on its own
17:00:57  <Samu> but it fails most of the time
17:01:04  <Samu> hmm wondering how i can improve this
17:01:24  <Alberth> improve the heuristic
17:03:37  <Samu> i'm not really sure how it checks the tiles
17:03:58  <Alberth> it might not even do that
17:04:13  <Alberth> it's not a proper path-finder like yapf or npf
17:04:19  <Samu> when it doesn't have the destination tile, i had to fake a "bird_dist"
17:04:46  <Samu> keeps on decreasing bird_dist-- every check
17:04:56  <Samu> just so it can keep searching
17:05:32  <Alberth> ok, I never read the code of opf
17:05:36  <Samu> how to fake this bird_dist better?
17:05:48  <Samu> the destination tile is unknown
17:06:02  <Samu> but it requires some distance, to see if it's closer to the target
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17:07:02  <Alberth> do you know about bisection?
17:07:13  <Samu> nop
17:10:05  <Alberth> say you want to find a word in a dictionary
17:10:37  <Alberth> basically it can be anywhere, but the book is ordered alphabetically
17:11:23  <Alberth> bisection say that you have a first place where it can be and a last place where it can be, and it's anywhere inbetween
17:11:51  <Alberth> you pick the page in the middle between both places, and check an entry there
17:12:36  <Alberth> if that entry is smaller than what you're looking for, you know the word you're looking for is not in the first half
17:12:49  <Alberth> if it's bigger, the word is not in the second half
17:13:20  <Alberth> so you're reducing the number of pages to look by 50%
17:13:50  <Alberth> you can of course play this game again with the remaining pages
17:14:03  <Alberth> until you found the word, or concluded it's not in it
17:14:06  <Samu> i can retrieve the location of all depots
17:14:21  <Samu> and then send it to the pathfinder as destination
17:14:27  <Samu> see if it can find for each?
17:14:44  <Alberth> is a depot at the other side of the map useful to try?
17:15:03  <Samu> nop, not really
17:15:40  <Samu> there is a max_distance of about 12 tiles for automatic service, and an unlimited distance for forced service
17:16:05  <Samu> it's 12 for opf for some reason, the other 2 it's about 20
17:18:40  <Samu> hmm i see what you mean, i attempt to locate a depot within x tiles radius from the location of the ship
17:19:01  <Samu> send it to pathfinder to see if it can find a way to it
17:19:15  <Samu> is that it?
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17:19:54  <Alberth> not sure, but you're trying to decide a bird-distance, I thought bisection may be useful
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17:23:49  <Samu> hmm i might try a different approach indeed
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17:45:46  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27836 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2017-03-30 19:45:36 +0200 )
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:48  <DorpsGek> catalan: 2 changes by juanjo
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18:34:14  <Wolf01> @seen andythenorth
18:34:15  <DorpsGek> Wolf01: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 21 hours, 43 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <andythenorth> ascii shrug
18:34:25  <Wolf01> Mmmh, brexit negative effect?
18:43:33  <Samu> hmm
18:44:46  <peter1138> so apparently we have timetable stuff and it works
18:45:02  <peter1138> and apparently it can do separation? though i've never had it working
18:45:08  <peter1138> what do i do wrong?
18:45:08  <Samu> HALP
18:45:27  <Samu> i got a problem with the loop
18:45:48  <Samu> i want it to sort before searching with the pathfinder
18:46:06  <Samu> else it can jump from depot to depot everytime is advances a tile
18:46:09  <Wolf01> Did you timetabled the entire trip with the first vehicle, them ctrl+started the vehicles from the depot?
18:46:19  <peter1138> no
18:46:33  <peter1138> i usually have 1 vehicle
18:46:36  <peter1138> then add others later
18:46:56  <Wolf01> Btw, I always find my vehicles clump together also when timetabled and started separate
18:47:47  <Samu> how to sort a list of depots based on distance manhattan and then have the pathfinder search in order of closest to distant?
18:48:16  <Wolf01> If you add them later you must stop the entire line and separate them again
18:48:31  <peter1138> is it this ctrl-start that does the magic?
18:48:39  <Wolf01> Seem so
18:48:44  <peter1138> cos i've never heard of it
18:48:51  <Wolf01> The separation seem to be done only when starting from the depot
18:49:01  <peter1138> what if they're all in different depots :S
18:49:05  <peter1138> and then
18:49:12  <peter1138> what is the autoseparation patch?
18:49:46  <Wolf01> I think that tries to keep track on when the last vehicle of a "line" visited a station
18:49:54  <frosch123> the trunk separation is a one time thing
18:49:56  <Wolf01> s/on/of
18:50:03  <Samu> u talking to me? i'm a bit lost
18:50:09  <frosch123> the patch is a continuous thing
18:50:25  <peter1138> are there issues with the patch?
18:50:50  <frosch123> it's kind of the opposite of timetabling
18:50:51  <Wolf01> No clue, never tried it and get tired of timetables too as they don't seem to work
18:51:23  <Wolf01> I usually set "load for 2 days"
18:51:41  <frosch123> i have no idea how it is used, whether it is a global thing or similar
18:51:52  <Wolf01> Or in case of freight, load for 10 days
18:52:05  <frosch123> but if it is, it would break synchronisation of vehicles from other routes
18:52:08  <frosch123> if someone uses that
18:53:31  <peter1138> i've never managed to achieve any form of synchronisation with the current timetables
18:53:48  <Wolf01> I like the transport fever autoseparation, it's continuous but has the only downside to block the stations, so you get the red wave effect sometimes
18:54:20  <frosch123> peter1138: anyway, i think jgr made several modifications to the original patch
18:54:41  <peter1138> jgr's patch pack is what i'm looking through
18:55:42  <peter1138> i just wonder... is it an improvement worth having, and if it is, what has stopped it being included
18:56:26  <frosch123> i have never understood the point of any kind of timetables :)
18:56:31  <peter1138> (or of course maybe just nobody's looked at it)
18:56:43  <frosch123> i certainly did not look at it
18:56:59  <frosch123> rb may have, since he did the trunk version of the other thing
18:57:08  <peter1138> i think maybe they're more useful for passenger/mail traffic than cargo, certainly
18:57:35  <peter1138> if i set up multiple vehicles on the same route, they will nearly always end up with vehicles bunched together
18:57:53  <peter1138> timetimes can help a bit but once vehicles start getting late, they are basically ignored
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18:58:21  <frosch123> i always set vehicles to load for n days, and do not set any travel times
18:58:35  <frosch123> which is more or less a work-around for percentage load
18:58:57  <peter1138> work-around?
18:59:23  <peter1138> hm
18:59:33  <frosch123> the problem with vehicles bunching up is, the first vehicle loads everything, the other ones leave empty, right?
18:59:49  <frosch123> you do not want to full-load, you do not want to half-load
18:59:59  <frosch123> load-for-n-days is the only intermediate thing we have
19:00:43  <frosch123> in general i would prefer more conditional orders, which would allow setting percentage loads per cargo type and minimum/maximum loading times
19:00:59  <frosch123> i never found a use-case for travel times
19:01:20  <frosch123> but possibly this is a pbs<->presignal, cdist<->transfer argument
19:01:44  <frosch123> vehicle separation does everything automaticaly, the order system would allow manual construction
19:04:05  <Wolf01> Also, peter1138, I hope the vanilla autoseparation doesn't relies only on autofilled timetable
19:05:44  <Wolf01> And I would like a mixed full load order with timetable (load for 15 days but leave if full load)... as now it seem to work only for load if available
19:05:50  <Samu> chat is busy
19:06:28  <frosch123> i think there was some forum discussion about more detailed orders
19:06:51  <frosch123> which split up the single-entry station load order into multiple lines, to specify cargo filters, and waiting conditions
19:07:27  <frosch123> but users of that would be distinct from those using auto separation :)
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19:14:45  <Wolf01> Sure, autoseparation need continuous work to be effective
19:15:04  <peter1138> in trunk? so it's effectively useless
19:18:50  <peter1138> q
19:19:57  <Wolf01> The problem with timetables is that you don't have enough time to make it adapt to the network, you can set "I want at the factory a load of steel on 1st april, a load of grain on 3rd april and depart with canned food on 15th april to reach the city on 4th may"
19:21:09  <Wolf01> But it's weird with planning a week(s) long trips
19:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> trunk-separation works by ctrl+click on "startdate" in the timetable window
19:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> but you need at least one station that has extra-long waiting times to catch up lateness
19:32:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and that station should have the ability to overtake (bit tricky with trams)
19:35:10  <Wolf01> My calculator says: the sum of those does not work
19:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you permanently get a late vehicle stuck behind an on-time vehicle
19:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there is nothing "auto" about that separation
19:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> except for saving you the trouble of setting an individual start time for each vehicle
19:38:21  <Eddi|zuHause> what's maybe missing is the ability to skip a full round-trip if you're more than X days (or X%) late
19:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> or possibly the ability for two vehicles to flip their start date position
19:40:29  <peter1138> is this stuff this patch resolves?
19:40:51  <peter1138> i don't quite get "opposite of timetaabling"
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19:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> "autoseparation" is more like "scheduling" rather than "realtime"
19:45:33  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, autoseparation takes over the timetable feature, so you cannot manually timetable anymore, but it constantly adjusts the times to (hopefully) keep your vehicles separated
19:46:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can set the times as a guideline for autoseparation, but basically they are ignored
19:46:48  <Eddi|zuHause> (except for the total roundtrip time, which gets used as the base for the separation)
19:48:31  <peter1138> hmm
19:48:51  <peter1138> so if it's there it definitely needs to be a per-order-list setting
19:52:47  <frosch123> with "opposite" i meant: timetables make vehicles always run the on the same schedule. the patch changes that to adjust the timetables all the time dependending on how the vehicles run
19:54:22  <peter1138> yes
19:54:37  <peter1138> ideally you'd set the timetable and it would then just manage to keep them separated based on that
19:54:40  <peter1138> but i dunno
19:54:50  <peter1138> difficult if the timetable is too short
19:56:05  <frosch123> that's also a kind of a problem of the current auto-fill
19:56:15  <frosch123> it does not add extra time to loading timte
19:56:22  <frosch123> *times
19:56:25  <Eddi|zuHause> in the "real" world you'd timetable with something like 80% of max speed, so you have the ability to go faster to catch up when late
19:56:57  <Wolf01> And overtake
19:57:07  <Wolf01> Specially overtake
19:57:42  <peter1138> overtaking would be possible if they weren't all going the same speed
19:57:44  <peter1138> except for trains
19:58:04  <Wolf01> Articulated vehicles can't overtake
19:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause> trams can't overtake
19:58:26  <peter1138> but then in ottd you want your vehicles to go as fast as possible anyway
19:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> in traffic jams you can't overtake
19:58:44  <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles don't balance over two lanes of a one-way road
19:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> or over two parallel roads
19:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> lots of things missing
19:59:12  <peter1138> meanwhile, clearly this patch is deemed useful as it's been around long enough
19:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i dislike autoseparation, but i can totally understand the demand for it
20:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause> afair the main problem has always been how to disable it
20:00:35  <Eddi|zuHause> there always seemed to be two settings which claimed to enable autoseparation
20:02:26  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: being able to timetable a target speed would be nice
20:02:54  <supermop> currently if i schedule a tram to drive at 80% speed over a segment, it will never go to 100 even if late
20:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, but if you overload it too much it will be even more of a pain to set up
20:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be timetable macromanagement
20:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> like instant autofilling
20:04:16  <peter1138> you can schedule speed limits?
20:04:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:04:20  <supermop> yep
20:04:42  <peter1138> hmm
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20:05:13  <supermop> it would be nice to have a savegame wide company setting to schedule timbled vehicles to drive at x% max speed?
20:05:27  <supermop> to save figuring it out each time?
20:05:43  <supermop> non timetabled vehicles just drive at whatever they can
20:06:06  <supermop> but the skip a round would be a life saver for trams
20:06:19  <frosch123> sounds equivalent to "add x% time to all auto-filled timetable entries"
20:06:38  <supermop> frosch123: but for speed
20:06:58  <frosch123> why would you want to let vehicles drive slower?
20:07:09  <frosch123> if they could also load during that time
20:07:43  <Eddi|zuHause> to save energy on acceleration :p
20:07:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and wear :p
20:08:07  <peter1138> frosch123, it seems you can, though
20:08:18  <frosch123> yes, michi_cc added that iirc
20:08:20  <peter1138> "Change Speed Limit" in timetables is there
20:08:27  <peter1138> so somebody thought it was useful
20:08:28  <supermop> if several lines share a tram stop, i might not want an early tram from line 1 to show up too soon and block a late tram from line 2?
20:08:41  <frosch123> i don't think i used it a single time :)
20:08:49  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: do you guys have a term for 'turns' like brits do in their rail parlance?
20:09:04  <supermop> like 'this train is working this turn"?
20:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you mean
20:09:24  * frosch123 should make a list of unused ottd features to remove. then compare that list to andy's
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20:10:02  <supermop> like there is a concept of a 'working' or service or whatever - lets say Edinburgh - York - London
20:10:11  <supermop> that leaves at 14:00 or whatever
20:10:35  <peter1138> let's just play TTD
20:10:39  <supermop> that's kind of separate from the concept of a physical train - "train 1" or whatever
20:11:03  <supermop> if train 1 is all fucked, you could ask train 2 to work that service
20:11:19  <frosch123> we call it "linie" (line)
20:11:20  <supermop> even if every other day train 1 does it
20:11:37  <frosch123> it's like in simutrans
20:11:48  <frosch123> there you create "order lists" and assign vehicles to them
20:12:16  <supermop> so maybe tram 4 runs the 13:30 service to Wherever Heights
20:12:18  <peter1138> vehicles should use "i'm early" time to get serviced :p
20:12:54  <supermop> but its so late that it wont be able to start until 14:30, meanwhile tram 5 is sitting there with nothing to do
20:13:02  <Eddi|zuHause> there's usually an "Umlauf", meaning if you have a schedule that takes 3 hours one way, and goes every 2 hours, then you assign one train to take trips 1,4,7 one train takes 2,5,8 and one train takes 3,6
20:13:07  <supermop> then let tram 4 and 5 swap runs
20:13:19  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: yeah
20:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know any more details than that
20:16:08  <frosch123> i think the majority of trains just service the same route in both directions
20:16:30  <frosch123> it's obvious on regional trains
20:16:40  <frosch123> but it does not appear to be different for ice
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20:16:53  <Eddi|zuHause> in our local tram system, occasionally two lines are connected
20:17:07  <michi_cc> peter1138: There was an attempt to make a railtype GRF with like 10 mph speed limit increments, which I found a bit too silly.
20:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have line 1 going A-B and line 2 going A-C, you have one tram going A-B-A-C-A-B-...
20:17:25  <peter1138> oh gods
20:17:36  <peter1138> was that the guy asking the other day?
20:17:47  <peter1138> wanted 32 rail types...
20:17:47  <frosch123> can we add a weight limit to timetables?
20:18:09  <peter1138> that is nonsense
20:18:36  <frosch123> why do you hate scrollable dropdowns?
20:18:54  <peter1138> ?
20:18:56  <frosch123> :p
20:19:07  <frosch123> peter1138: sorry, i just cannot imagine a gui for 32 railtypes
20:19:15  <frosch123> andy coimplains about the station gui all the time
20:19:41  <frosch123> i don't think a dropdown with 32 items fits on his screen
20:19:57  <peter1138> that's because he has a super retina display and runs at 4x * 2x * 8x or something
20:23:20  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, problem with ignoring the timetable speed limit is you don't know when you are back on schedule again until the next stop
20:23:51  <peter1138> then it ends up being early and hogs a station slot
20:24:03  <peter1138> (not that that doesn't happen anyway)
20:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is a problem of the timetables being a bit crude
20:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you could work around that by placing more waypoints
20:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause> currently, waypoints are a bit useless for timetabling, because they only tell you how early/late you are, but can't be used to balance that out
20:27:11  <peter1138> can't stop at them i suppose
20:28:22  <Eddi|zuHause> allowing slowdown or speedup would help with that
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20:50:10  <peter1138> ok so what else
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21:17:44  <supermop> new property for buses for probability of passengers getting sick
21:21:01  <Samu> peter1138: let me present u the OPFShipFindNearestDepot
21:24:37  <Samu> gonna check if this is working as intended, brb
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21:28:11  <peter1138> enhanced viewport looks cool... and bit... and probably buggy :p
21:29:31  <Samu> perhaps i don't need to compute the reversed distance, since I'm not gonna reverse
21:29:40  <Samu> this can be simplified
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21:30:25  <Samu> actually, I'm not sure
21:32:19  <Samu> gonna experiment without it
21:33:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r27837 trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_simple.cpp (2017-03-30 23:33:40 +0200 )
21:33:46  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26969): Black remap did nothing in 8bpp-simple blitter.
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21:37:33  <peter1138> too much in one patch though
21:37:43  <peter1138> industry tool tips etc
21:42:51  <Wolf01> heh...
21:43:33  <Wolf01> It's the compatibility link between tram and water
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21:48:23  <peter1138> ctrl-click... no separation hmm.
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21:51:37  <Samu> damn it, i'm dealing with too many distances, grrr
22:04:17  <Samu> how is int to uint converted?
22:04:31  <Samu> why use int for distances if they're always positive?
22:04:47  *** Wormnest has quit IRC
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22:06:26  <Samu> question, i got a int max_distance = INT_MAX, but i need to convert it to uint
22:06:43  <Samu> (uint)max_distance = what?
22:06:52  <Samu> INT_MAX or UINT_MAX?
22:07:21  <Wolf01> 'night
22:07:23  *** Wolf01 has quit IRC
22:08:30  <Samu> nobody knows?
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22:45:06  <glx> Samu:
22:59:30  <peter1138> hurr
22:59:33  <peter1138> tubular brass
23:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called a Tuba for a reason :p
23:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, there was a transport fever patch
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